Tier List Speculation

[I speak Spanish too]

Hmm, I'll look at wolf too!

 

[D e l t a]

Hi Guys. I am looking into getting into PM and I'm wondering what the best character for me is.

I like offensive lockdown alot so I am looking at Diddy
I also loved melee marth so maybe PM marth may be the same so I am looking at him
I also love heavy edgeguards
I like characters who are fast as well and can do like zero to deaths as well

Fox basically has all those traits

Lucas honestly has a touch of death against most of the cast. With enough practice, you can get 50-80% punishes off one hit confirm.

GnW isn't as offensive, but has everything else. He can 0-death characters pretty easy, especially if you can land a 7 or 9 hammer. His crouch cancel and especially Dtilt are great for reversals, UpB is godlike, and all his attacks are powerful.

 

[The Baron]

Wolf has a lot of the stuff you're looking for. His offensive pressure is outstanding, his laser is awesome for passively controling interactions, and his combo/juggle game is immaculate. He's just really frickin' hard, but I think it's well worth the effort, cause he is really fun.

On that note, Wolf is good if you want to put a lot of time in and don't expect immediate results or tourney wins (though you shouldn't anyway if you are just starting but hey, we all like being unrealistic at times). You've got to put a lot of time in with him. If you're looking for a similar gameplan but easier to excecute or win with in your early stages, I'd do what delta said and go with fox or falco. On top of that they also have more info overal aboutthem so that's a plus. Otherwise play wolf and have a blast. If you've a skype I can get you into the wolf skype group as well (now with alternate option of discord).

 

[Luk101]

Otherwise play wolf and have a blast.

*blaster

 

[Life]

You can have a blaster AND indefinite invincibility!

...

This is probably much more entertaining for me than it is for everyone else.

 

[Cox Box]

You can have a blaster AND indefinite invincibility!

...

This is probably much more entertaining for me than it is for everyone else.

I still have yet to see a single video of this being done in the lab, and haven't even heard of somebody doing it in tournament. Anyone care to show us this mythical blaster waveland?

 

[The Baron]

I still have yet to see a single video of this being done in the lab, and haven't even heard of somebody doing it in tournament. Anyone care to show us this mythical blaster waveland?

that would mean I'd have to scour pages of the skype group to get it. Or I could go bug cohenskii for it. I like that plan

EDIT: I SUMMON THEE FROM THE DEEPEST PITS OF AWOO. A GIF TO SHOW THE NON-BELIEVERS THAT THEIR GOD IS FALSE AND OURS IS TRUE. PERFECT WAVELAND BLASTER I SUMMON THEE

http://gfycat.com/QuestionableQueasyJuliabutterfly

 

[Cox Box]

that would mean I'd have to scour pages of the skype group to get it. Or I could go bug cohenskii for it. I like that plan

EDIT: I SUMMON THEE FROM THE DEEPEST PITS OF AWOO. A GIF TO SHOW THE NON-BELIEVERS THAT THEIR GOD IS FALSE AND OURS IS TRUE. PERFECT WAVELAND BLASTER I SUMMON THEE

http://gfycat.com/QuestionableQueasyJuliabutterfly

So wolf is fully invincible the whole time? Or is it just until the laser comes out?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wolf is probably significantly easier to get wins with than Falco if you're not super experienced with Melee Falco. Just gotta be ballsy enough to go for the side B in any and all situations.

 

[Life]

You can get more invincibility by dropping lower. Gif is suboptimal.

 

[The Baron]

Wolf is probably significantly easier to get wins with than Falco if you're not super experienced with Melee Falco. Just gotta be ballsy enough to go for the side B in any and all situations.

In my opinion that makes it harder. Not many newer players are willing to play that ballsy and falcos lasers are hell to deal with at all levels of play. It's much easier to find an out for wolf lasers than it is falcos lasers. Also there is a noticably higher skill floor with wolf than falco that means that your falco can be "tournament ready" sooner

 

[1FD]

get off on spacies
super project melee wolves 2.0

 

[pikadrewuniverse]

The community needs to wait a year before trying to really put a tier list together. :/

 

[TheGravyTrain]

pikadrewuniverse
A formal one like Brawl's and Melee's? Sure. But ones made by randoms and top players don't hurt, and they typically lead to a decent bit of discussion.

 

[redbeanjelly]

The community needs to wait a year before trying to really put a tier list together. :/

Hence the "speculation" part of the thread

 

[Cox Box]

You can get more invincibility by dropping lower. Gif is suboptimal.

So post one that's frame perfect, if it's really possible to do a fully invincible laser haxdash. Not trying to call you out or anything, I just want to see this for myself.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Avro-Arrow
I swear, you like every single post in this thread, even when two people are adamantly disagreeing with each other, you like both of their posts...

So post one that's frame perfect, if it's really possible to do a fully invincible laser haxdash. Not trying to call you out or anything, I just want to see this for myself.

To be fair, he didn't post the gif, someone else did. And if you want to see it for yourself, you can always test in debug mode. Just did it with these inputs:
Hold ledge for 8 frames -> let go and fast fall by pushing down -> fall for 4 frames -> double jump -> push b -> hold in towards the stage and rise -> 3 ish frames after the blaster shot is out, air dodge diagonal and back -> fast fall once airborne -> grab ledge while still invincible. Might need to change a frame or two if it isn't working, but I just got done testing. There you go, see for yourself.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Avro-Arrow
I swear, you like every single post in this thread, even when two people are adamantly disagreeing with each other, you like both of their posts...

Lol I don't think there's anything wrong with recognizing that people make good points, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. If they have sound logic and contribute to discussion, why not? And I don't like every post.

For example, your post won't be getting a like from me.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[D e l t a]

On that note, Lucas is good if you want to put a lot of time in and don't expect immediate results or tourney wins.

FTFY

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

I prefer:
On that note, Lucas is good if you want to put a ton of time in and don't expect any results or tourney wins ever.

I tried so hard to play Lucas, never could figure it out. I could do the tech, but stuff never stringed together for me.
I still think Lucas is awesome.

 

[zen-bz-]

I like to play Lucas a lot, but sometimes I get too used to being able to DJC aerials and mag when I switch to other characters and every other character seems weird to me...at least in PM. In Melee I have a different mentality so it doesn't confuse me there.

I will admit sometimes with Marth in PM I meant to use side b to stall and instead countered because my brain went "stall is down b" T_T

 

[The Baron]

FTFY

As the kids say, u right

 

[shairn]

I like to play Lucas a lot, but sometimes I get too used to being able to DJC aerials and mag when I switch to other characters and every other character seems weird to me...at least in PM. In Melee I have a different mentality so it doesn't confuse me there.

I will admit sometimes with Marth in PM I meant to use side b to stall and instead countered because my brain went "stall is down b" T_T

Well... Counter does stall a bit.

 

[KinGly]

Well... Counter does stall a bit.

stalling on the respawn platform doesn't count

 

[Nausicaa]

Looks like I missed something.
Something kind of 'big' it seems.
Interesting indeedy.

(Almost random thought: where are you Nausicaa ?)

A tad random. haha
Mentioned a few times that I'd be gone until after March. Got lucky with a home-trip today to see this, but yeah, I'm leaving again asap. Don't know when I'll be back, or if I'll be back before March, as planned. See you then! :D

Random Mewtwo talks that happened.
It's taken this long for people to click with basic Wolf stuff that was all obvious from day-1 2.1.
Nobody has any idea what they're doing with Mewtwo or Lucas, some have figured things out, but these characters are deep. Someone like Frozen does sweet stuff, but guaranteed, the sweet stuff done today won't be the sweet stuff for very long, and more sweet stuff will always be taking its place for a long time. Keep watching Frozen, and look at what was done then-to-now, and that pace will continue if it's stayed with.

Pivot u/dtilts are significantly easier in PM due to multiple things.

snip

theres a lot of stuff that makes them easy and applicable, but the game isn't really developed enough for those kinda of micro-situations to be more useful than general macro situations

Micro pivot and macro pivots.
These are clips from about 20 matches of me playing Falco and Melee for the first time in over a year this November.
Averaged probably 2 pviots a match, mostly grabs, ftilts, fsmash, and jumps, but there were a couple utilt for sure. Freaking hard.
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=x2md50&s=9#.VmboxbgrLRb
Game doesn't have to be developed very much to make these things come into play.
Shield drops could have been a thing a long time ago, they could have combo before powershielding lasers if Falco wasn't so common in the meta-game.
People are smarter now, there won't be an era of blind tech that provides a Falco-like heavy-meta, and the micro is taking its toll on the melee meta. PM isn't far behind, it's the child of it, all any of this needs is enough sparks to catch fire.

The community is chippin away. Sooooon
Soooooooon

Edit: Oh I'm tickled pink.
Who puts a prank on someone after they say multiple times publicly that they're not gonna be around much for months?
Maybe the pink lasts with post count and not time. Shinanegans.

Played smash last night.
Good game.

I'll be back to finally 'actually' play in March.
It's been a while.

Need more cool stuff. DO IT

 

[D e l t a]

Looks like I missed something.
Something kind of 'big' it seems.
Interesting indeedy.

Who puts a prank on someone after they say multiple times publicly that they're not gonna be around much for months?

<3

Nobody has any idea what they're doing with Mewtwo or Lucas, some have figured things out, but these characters are deep.

Need more cool stuff. DO IT

Curious to note what things Lucas (and by extension, Mewtwo) mains need to be doing. I'm trying to be on the forefront of advancing Lucas' metagame, despite my lower placings in tournament due to mental blocks. That's why I'm contempt to communicate with the other Lucas mains and write out all my findings on the character. It's also how I'm able to be open to any suggestions and ideas that Lucas mains should implement, or any other feedback from the community.

Most of the tech has been figured out for Lucas, and the rest of his stuff is all frame perfect things. The biggest flaws I see are with approaching / defensive tech in neutral, and shield pressure. I could go in-depth about how Lucas players still haven't found optimal combos / punishes, or that their ledge guard game isn't nearly as precise as it could be, but that doesn't play as much of a role in his meta for tournaments.

As for Mewtwo, UpB shenanigans (ledge stalls, platform cancelled movement, approach options) and teleport / DJC stuff is about all I can think of that needs improvement.

 

[Tarul]

Lucas can do so many things... And yet most Lucas players will end up just using PK Freeze.

 

[Frost | Odds]

did this this morning for reasons

http://pastebin.com/99B1hJpJ

 

[Truerebel]

I'm curious, why do you place c-falc in S tier?

 

[shairn]

Bowser bias

Also Falcon is legit amazing in PM

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser bias

Also Falcon is legit amazing in PM

I actually don't mind the Bowser/CF matchup.

Falcon is just broken overall; the moment someone bothers to optimize him he's going to start winning PM tournaments everywhere

 

[Chaloopy]

I actually don't mind the Bowser/CF matchup.

Falcon is just broken overall; the moment someone bothers to optimize him he's going to start winning PM tournaments everywhere

Do you mean like Wizzrobe has, or something specific in PM makes him even better?

 

[trash?]

falcon pretty much got nothing but buffs from melee to PM, and the top tiers around him play much nicer (less emphasis on really bad matchups like falco, more floaty and/or big bodies to knock about). falcon in melee is a character that required an absurd amount of effort to only really be good enough, but in PM a good falcon just cleanly counters a whole lot of people

 

[Chaloopy]

So just relevant MU spread being better? Don't his old bad matchups stay bad in that case? A lot of those characters are still relevant and I'd guess a few of the newcomers are quite good against Falcon too.

 

[Life]

hashtag buff pit

Oh wait.

re: Falcon, sideB being a real recovery move helps him a lot; I'm not convinced the anti-Falcon game won't also develop as Falcon develops, though. Maybe not w.r.t. his combos, which are less "DI to escape the combo" and more "DI to make Falcon follow your DI and hopefully mess up," but maybe in other ways.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I like this community or this thread at least. All of you guys are active and optimistic about PM's meta and discussing with more depth than just skimming the water. I can't wait to get into this game.

 

[Saproling]

I can't see why people think ness and ivy aren't close together. They suffer from a lot of the same issues and have similar strengths in their punish games.
People are weird.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

>talk to luigi mains, ivy wins
>talk to ivy mains, matchup is even or luigi wins

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Gonna pop in real quick to say Ivy wins +1 the way I see it.

 

[shairn]

I actually don't mind the Bowser/CF matchup.

Falcon is just broken overall; the moment someone bothers to optimize him he's going to start winning PM tournaments everywhere

Yeah I don't mind the matchup either when Falcon is playing like **** and I get to 0-death him for free

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I don't mind the matchup either when Falcon is playing like **** and I get to 0-death him for free

Then he's like "wait we're not on a small stage?? I can DD your crappy approaches and grab and ZTD you? kk cool"

I think Bowser will be a cool pocket character for when you lose game 1 and get to counterpick character and then counterpick stage and f*** s*** up on Battlefield. But playing him into your opponent's stage choice seems like a bad idea.