Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

Lazy or consistent? I find characters whose main thing is Rng to be poorly designed (minus omen).


Yes I've payed attention and having seen very little high level dk play that shows him as a competent character like the majority of the cast.

what other ways are there even doing it besides set order and RNG lol
RNG shouldn't even be in the game as far as I'm concerned, it's just stupid to have a game with money on the line have the possibility to come down to chance. But correct me if I'm wrong, RNG and set order are the only two options...? Unless you give olimar a way to choose what he plucks, but then you still have RNG at the start of the game and on every spawn.

the only requirement a new method of spawning pikmin needs is that it needs to spawn pikmin. thats it. everything else is pure creativity and set order is lazy in that way. not only that, but that also means it will take wayyyy to long to get double pikmin, a huge part of a ton of matchups.

 

[MagnesD3]

the only requirement a new method of spawning pikmin needs is that it needs to spawn pikmin. thats it. everything else is pure creativity and set order is lazy in that way. not only that, but that also means it will take wayyyy to long to get double pikmin, a huge part of a ton of matchups.

When it comes to competitive gaming I prefer consistent over non, I think it's the right call to make for designs sake and to simply improve olimar overall.

 

[steelguttey]

When it comes to competitive gaming I prefer consistent over non, I think it's the right call to make for designs sake and to simply improve olimar overall.

not saying i dont hate rng, in fact i think rng is stupid as ****. im saying theres an actual infinite amount of ways to remove rng, you guys just arent being creative enough. olimar would simply be a worse character with set order because pikmin are well designed with different attributes, meaning that some pikmin are needed in certain matchups (purples against fox, yellows against marth etc) and with set order you cant have more than one of the pikmin thats good for the matchup unless you stall for a huge amount of time. its just a lazy way of doing things

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Just a question to solve a debate (or get better answers for it), how good is Marth? Would you guys say he is high tier, or naw? I usually see him placed high tier but i don't know. Also, whats the Fox vs Marth MU like?

 

[MagnesD3]

not saying i dont hate rng, in fact i think rng is stupid as ****. im saying theres an actual infinite amount of ways to remove rng, you guys just arent being creative enough. olimar would simply be a worse character with set order because pikmin are well designed with different attributes, meaning that some pikmin are needed in certain matchups (purples against fox, yellows against marth etc) and with set order you cant have more than one of the pikmin thats good for the matchup unless you stall for a huge amount of time. its just a lazy way of doing things

If you need purple or white that badly then yes olimar needs to find a way to stall so he can pluck more pikmin knowing he will get the color that's wanted guarantee with no luck factor, the pikmin will be earned.

 

[steelguttey]

What if you could use the whistle to dictate the next pikmin plucked? Currently, the whistle resets the order of the pikmin into a set order depending on what pikmin are in your lineup and how many times you have already whistled. It's complicated to explain, but it's a unique system, that I personally like.

Anyway, I'm suggesting leaving the order random, unless the whistle is used to force your next pull. The order of operations would go like this:
-Random plucking
-Whistle
-Red pluck
-Random plucking
-Whistle
-Yellow pluck
-Whistle
-Blue pluck
-Whistle
-Whistle (skip white)
-Purple pluck

It would be an interesting dynamic, because you can whistle three times, do what you normally do, and then when the time comes to net a grab kill, pluck to get a blue. Or whistle five times when you respawn, pluck a purple.

Thoughts? I don't really see anyone utilizing whistling right now other than to just pull their pikmin together. I think this is because not many people know how it actually works.

Edit: And to that point, I think that if people started using whistle better, they would see a lot more success. It's a very strong tool for particular set ups.



How would you get two of the same color in that instance? I personally like to always have two purples, two reds, or two yellows whenever possible.

the idea of being able to "choose" what pikmin you get without really doing anything would be kinda busted because he would have the optimal lineup for every matchup without really doing anything. whistling is technically doing something but considering you can b-reverse it and it has such little lag it doesnt really mean much anyway.

If you need purple or white that badly then yes olimar needs to find a way to stall so he can pluck more pikmin knowing he will get the color that's wanted guarantee with no luck factor, the pikmin will be earned.

farming is boring and dependent on how high up the blastzone is, so if olimar is on dreamland farming will take muuuuch longer. olimar likes big stages too so this would just be an annoying nerf to him

 

[eideeiit]

If it's that hard to get then they should reduce the amount of time it takes to charge because keeping any of the charge after dying is still bad design. Less bad than before but still bad. I also don't believe solar beam is that hard to hit like you say, ivysaur has plenty of moves designed to put them in the correct spot for the move to work.

Please go a bit more in-depth with this "bad design" stuff.

Cause at least for Lucario I think the current system's a lot better. He has to earn every resource he gets, and not rely on the system giving it to him when he gets rekt.

Ivy was already mentioned.

Wario... Yeah, he may be the one to need looking at the most, but idk.

 

[MagnesD3]

Please go a bit more in-depth with this "bad design" stuff.

Cause at least for Lucario I think the current system's a lot better. He has to earn every resource he gets, and not rely on the system giving it to him when he gets rekt.

Ivy was already mentioned.

Wario... Yeah, he may be the one to need looking at the most, but idk.

Why should lucario get to keep his charge when 90% of the roster doesn't keep theirs upon death, they earn it just as lucario earns his. Why should a character keep an earned tool when they lost the stock? It's on the player to utilize their earned tool before they die not after, no player should get a freebe. You still would get aura at the start of the round it's just a set amount instead of whatever you had upon death. Each raw stock should be exactly the same as the first one, each stock being similar to a round like in other fighting games.

I'm against situations where players go eh I'll just lose the stock instead of trying to recover or go for a mixup since I get to keep this resource anyway.

Simply put here's what I said in an earlier post "charge maintaining after death mechanics makes for less intelligent play and overall gives less risky moves to certain characters over others for no good reason."

 

[nimigoha]

I think you're equating things that can't really be equated.

Lucario's aura sphere, DK's giant punch, Samus's charge shot, Mewtwo's shadow ball, Squirtle's water gun, and Sheik's needles (6 moves btw, not exactly 90% of the cast lol) are all B moves that take like 2-3 seconds to charge, and you can store the partial charge and run away and keep charging. You can charge in the air.

Waft takes I think a minute and a half, Solarbeam requires 25% of healing, and Aura requires dealing 50 damage.

These are not the same. Stop saying "it's unfair that X gets to keep this, they earn it the same".

Lucario losing everything but getting Aura on respawn is incredibly mindless. No thought required, spend as much Aura trying to recover no matter what because you'll get a charge when you get back. Having the carryover means you have to weigh up whether making it back will be more beneficial than respawning with more Aura.

I think that Waft's timed recharge doesn't fit. I think it would be interesting to incorporate Bite into the charging system, like 3 or 4 bites on your opponent would grant you a Waft. I dunno.

 

[MagnesD3]

I think you're equating things that can't really be equated.

Lucario's aura sphere, DK's giant punch, Samus's charge shot, Mewtwo's shadow ball, Squirtle's water gun, and Sheik's needles (6 moves btw, not exactly 90% of the cast lol) are all B moves that take like 2-3 seconds to charge, and you can store the partial charge and run away and keep charging. You can charge in the air.

Waft takes I think a minute and a half, Solarbeam requires 25% of healing, and Aura requires dealing 50 damage.

These are not the same. Stop saying "it's unfair that X gets to keep this, they earn it the same".

I think that Waft's timed recharge doesn't fit. I think it would be interesting to incorporate Bite into the charging system, like 3 or 4 bites on your opponent would grant you a Waft. I dunno.

I think it's bad in all cases, just because it's unfair doesn't mean I actually want Samus or Dk to retain charge upon death, no I think it's just intuitive design to make the characters re earn their charged up tool since they lost a stock. I'm pointing out it's silly that these few characters get to have these less risky option/earned options which make for less intelligent or creative plays.

 

[nimigoha]

It's almost like having 41 characters will include some attributes that are original.

This is like complaining that Lucario gets an OHC system, Lucas gets an OU system, or Marth gets a tipper system.

"Marth is less risky than Roy because he gets to space with tippers but Roy is strongest at the hilt" well yeah, but the characters are designed around that attribute.

Lucario's Aura and Wario's Waft carryover is strictly more intelligent and creative play (significantly with regard to recovery), requiring you to weigh options rather than "whatever I'll get it back next stock".

 

[MagnesD3]

It's almost like having 41 characters will include some attributes that are original.

This is like complaining that Lucario gets an OHC system, Lucas gets an OU system, or Marth gets a tipper system.

"Marth is less risky than Roy because he gets to space with tippers but Roy is strongest at the hilt" well yeah, but the characters are designed around that attribute.

Lucario's Aura and Wario's Waft carryover is strictly more intelligent and creative play (significantly with regard to recovery), requiring you to weigh options rather than "whatever I'll get it back next stock".

I never said variety wasn't a good thing I'm just saying that keeping a charge upon death is bad fighting video game design it honestly makes using these tools easier and creates no risk/reward situation unless it's last stock since you have the tool no matter what, when good tools like that have honestly no reason to be that way.
Very rarely do you ever see a good Wario use the waft for recover, they usually tank it for the next stock since it's easy to combo into and a kill move.

 

[Droß]

So about that "set order of Pikmin" problem...

Why not just do this?

Press B to pluck a Pikmin. If no C-stick input is performed within 5 frames, you get a purple.

If the C-stick is tilted or smashed in the following directions within 5 frames of pressing B you get the following Pikmin color:
Up: Red
Down: Blue
Left: White
Right: Yellow

This allows you to at least plan your future order, rewards players with better muscle memory/mechanical skill, and idk if it'll **** with smashes or DACUS or something but it'll be better than pure RNG amirite?

Edit: If these changes would make Olimar OP for whatever reason you can just nerf the pikmin until they suck.

 

[MagnesD3]

So about that "set order of Pikmin" problem...

Why not just do this?

Press B to pluck a Pikmin. If no C-stick input is performed within 5 frames, you get a purple.

If the C-stick is tilted or smashed in the following directions within 5 frames of pressing B you get the following Pikmin color:
Up: Red
Down: Blue
Left: White
Right: Yellow

This allows you to at least plan your future order, rewards players with better muscle memory/mechanical skill, and idk if it'll **** with smashes or DACUS or something but it'll be better than pure RNG amirite?

Getting Multiple purple with no work involved seems too good to me.

 

[Droß]

Nerf the purples then? They wouldn't have to be as good if you could pluck them on demand.

 

[nimigoha]

I see good Warios use Waft recovery all the time. It's a good move but not like their only kill option.

Obviously if you're at 140% and you have more stocks it's usually better to save it.

But if you have like 60% and Waft will save you, you might want to get saved.

Oh wow this almost looks like a process that requires thought and decision making and isn't a hard "good people hardly ever do this".

You're also ignoring the incredible points I'm making about Lucario's recovery. It's straight up a bread and butter risk reward system lol.

As for Pikmin pluck, what about this:

Neutral pluck + 4 stick (or maybe Dpad?) directions gives you choice Pikmin but you can only have 2 of each colour. So you can't just load up on Purples and go nuts.

And if you try to force a colour when you already have 2 you'll be given a random Pikmin.

I'd make neutral pluck a Red Pikmin so if you spam B then you'll get Red Red Random Random, which is honestly not bad.

Also this system means that plucking your preferred set of Pikmin will take a lot longer than the current B spam. So it's a tradeoff of speed and potential colour-heavy lineups for consistency.

Not sure how respawn would work though. Maybe just respawn with Red and 1 random?

 

[MagnesD3]

I see good Warios use Waft recovery all the time. It's a good move but not like their only kill option.

Obviously if you're at 140% and you have more stocks it's usually better to save it.

But if you have like 60% and Waft will save you, you might want to get saved.

Oh wow this almost looks like a process that requires thought and decision making and isn't a hard "good people hardly ever do this".

You're also ignoring the incredible points I'm making about Lucario's recovery. It's straight up a bread and butter risk reward system lol.

As for Pikmin pluck, what about this:

Neutral pluck + 4 stick (or maybe Dpad?) directions gives you choice Pikmin but you can only have 2 of each colour. So you can't just load up on Purples and go nuts.

And if you try to force a colour when you already have 2 you'll be given a random Pikmin.

I'd make neutral pluck a Red Pikmin so if you spam B then you'll get Red Red Random Random, which is honestly not bad.

Also this system means that plucking your preferred set of Pikmin will take a lot longer than the current B spam. So it's a tradeoff of speed and potential colour-heavy lineups for consistency.

Not sure how respawn would work though. Maybe just respawn with Red and 1 random?

Does Lucario currently start the first stock with no aura? It might be better if Lucario just didn't start off with any aura at all each stock. (Of course if this were to happen and this nerf affected him too greatly to where he can't compete he would be compensated in some way but I highly doubt that would be the case.). I'm fine with him starting with no aura or a set amount of aura for each stock, I think I'd prefer no aura now that I think about it, that way he has to completely earn every bit of his game plan each stock, Id rather have 0 free resources in this game if I could help it.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Lucario's aura system is fine.

RNG in a competitive title is not inherently bad design. As long as all variations are rewarding for the user while also providing reasonable counterplay to the opponent, it is an acceptable element of the game. I have no idea why the concept of RNG gets so much hate around here but it's gotten rather silly.

D3's Waddle Toss is fine now that he can rethrow Gordos. Prior to 3.6 it violated the first requirement since trying to rethrow a Gordo offstage would cause him to SD.

Peach's Turnip Pull is mostly fine, but I'd argue that the beam sword's range needs to be less ridiculous. It's a huge game changer right now and it's difficult to play around, violating #2. Everything else about the move is okay, it generally favors Peach but there are opportunities to turn the turnip/item against her.

G&W's hammer is not okay; its reward varies so much that you're generally better off not using it if you're playing to win. The potential exception is if you can farm an odd roll with bad numbers removed from the pool beforehand, which I see as a bit of a band-aid on a poorly designed move.

Luigi's Green Missle is basically fine, could maybe use some refinement in the details but the overall idea is okay.

Olimar's pikmin are not fine; they turn the entire character into an RNG micromanagement ****fest complicated by an unintuitive sorting ability. The difference between having the pikmin you want and one you don't can be massive, and the odd sorting mechanic means you can't always use the one you want even with some setup time.

 

[nimigoha]

Does Lucario currently start the first stock with no aura? It might be better if Lucario just didn't start off with any aura at all each stock. (Of course if this were to happen and this nerf affected him too greatly to where he can't compete he would be compensated in some way but I highly doubt that would be the case.

Lucario starts the game with 1 charge.

Rebalancing him to start with no aura on any stocks would require making it easier for him to get Aura. They literally just made it more difficult to get Aura: deal 50% instead of 40%, and no Aura gained from shield hit.

There's some math you could do. Might do it later. Look at the differences between low generation requirement with no carryover vs current system, ballparking how much damage output you have on opponent until you die.

 

[MagnesD3]

Lucario starts the game with 1 charge.

Rebalancing him to start with no aura on any stocks would require making it easier for him to get Aura. They literally just made it more difficult to get Aura: deal 50% instead of 40%, and no Aura gained from shield hit.

There's some math you could do. Might do it later. Look at the differences between low generation requirement with no carryover vs current system.

Hmm Lucario is a bit of a different case than Wario and Ivy, so it's a bit harder to say what should be done. I still think him starting with nothing is the best way to approach and then tweak him here and there to compensate but it sounds like it's not too poor the way he is now but I still don't think it's perfect the way his system is currently. Wario and Ivys options are just too linear, non risky and unearned for them to keep after they die, I'd prefer it gone on all 3 but would accept just those two losing it I suppose.

 

[nimigoha]

Hmm Lucario is a bit of a different case than Wario and Ivy, so it's a bit harder to say what should be done. I still think him starting with nothing is the best way to approach and then tweak him here and there to compensate but it sounds like it's not too poor the way he is now but I still don't think it's perfect the way his system is currently. Wario and Ivys options are just too linear and unearned for them to keep after they die, I'd prefer it gone on all 3 but would accept just those two losing it I suppose.

You're looking at difficult balance here.

If you want Ivy to lose any Solarbeam charge when she dies, you're asking her to heal 25% in one stock to get a Solarbeam. That's a pretty tall order.

If you look at top Ivys and look at how many times they kill with Solarbeam, I'd be surprised if the average across games was more than 2. So like, 25% across 2 stocks on average. I'm just making up numbers but I hope my point is coming across. Making it even 20% in one stock would make Solarbeams very rare against competent opponents.

Wario is a different case, the straight time-only requirement is weird. Making it an action-reward feature as opposed to a "don't lose too quickly - reward" system.

But then you have to balance the payoff for the requirement. Maybe reduce the damage of Waft and make it useable after 3 Dairs and/or Bites connecting?

 

[robosteven]

farming is boring and

stop

dependent on how high up the blastzone is, so if olimar is on dreamland farming will take muuuuch longer. olimar likes big stages too so this would just be an annoying nerf to him

You understand that there's only five different Pikmin types and under set order every possible combination of four different plucked Pikmin in-a-row will automatically give Olimar the ability to kill with at least one of them, right?

farming wouldn't even be a necessity, and even if it took forever to optimize in a game this wouldn't be a problem because, as you said,

the idea of being able to "choose" what pikmin you get without really doing anything would be kinda busted because he would have the optimal lineup for every matchup without really doing anything.

and even if this was a real problem, Pikmin would have to be rebalanced around this anyway.

There is literally nothing wrong with set order were Pikmin properties to be adjusted.

The fact that you referred to the gained ability to consistently farm as a nerf blows my ****ing mind.

 

[MagnesD3]

You're looking at difficult balance here.

If you want Ivy to lose any Solarbeam charge when she dies, you're asking her to heal 25% in one stock to get a Solarbeam. That's a pretty tall order.

If you look at top Ivys and look at how many times they kill with Solarbeam, I'd be surprised if the average across games was more than 2. So like, 25% across 2 stocks on average. I'm just making up numbers but I hope my point is coming across. Making it even 20% in one stock would make Solarbeams very rare against competent opponents.

Wario is a different case, the straight time-only requirement is weird. Making it an action-reward feature as opposed to a "don't lose too quickly - reward" system.

With that being said I think it's perfectly suitable to have to restart their timers (In Warios case) as I'm sick of seeing warios tank their waft for a free kill next stock all the time since it seems pretty braindead or charge (for solar beam) which is a tall order but it's not like there isn't something gained from her special while trying to obtain that tool. It also promotes IMO good fighting game design to boot. Those tools use should definitely be encouraged to be used that way while you still have them.

I'd take away the free stuff from lucario too but that involves giving him stuff in return. (Which I'm fine with). The other two can have their stuff pulled from them with no compensation.

 

[nimigoha]

With that being said I think it's perfectly suitable to have to restart their timers (In Warios case) as I'm sick of seeing warios tank their waft for a free kill next stock all the time since it seems pretty braindead or charge (for solar beam) which is a tall order but it's not like there isn't something gained from her special while trying to obtain that tool. It also promotes IMO good fighting game design to boot.

I'd take away the free stuff from lucario too but that involves giving him stuff in return. (Which I'm fine with). The other two can have their stuff pulled from them with no compensation.

I don't see Wario or especially Ivy as any sort of problem requiring such a gutting nerf. If it was a question of balance because they're too good then yeah. But unless I'm mistaken, this discussion is about good/bad game/character design and straight stripping these options from those two with no compensation is too drastic.

You're asking for Wario to survive for one minute and five seconds without dying.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't see Wario or especially Ivy as any sort of problem requiring such a gutting nerf. If it was a question of balance because they're too good then yeah. But unless I'm mistaken, this discussion is about good/bad game/character design and straight stripping these options from those two with no compensation is too drastic.

You're asking for Wario to survive for one minute and five seconds without dying.

I honestly don't think it's that big of a nerf at all, they really don't need to be guaranteed to get those tools every time. They are both deadly malleable kill moves that are on characters who are fine without them. This nerf will simply make for more intelligent play by adhering to the risk/reward system that most characters have with stored moves. People who use those characters would complain but they honestly most likely wouldn't budge on any matchup chart from where they are now. It's just a change for better design in a game that's constantly striving for that kind of gameplay philosophy.

 

[Saproling]

Lets also make it so if either of the links don't catch their boomerang they lose it till next stock.

 

[MagnesD3]

Lets also make it so if either of the links don't catch their boomerang they lose it till next stock.

Clearly not a charge move. Also clearly a huge part of links gameplan.

 

[Life]

RNG in a competitive title is not inherently bad design. As long as all variations are rewarding for the user while also providing reasonable counterplay to the opponent, it is an acceptable element of the game. I have no idea why the concept of RNG gets so much hate around here but it's gotten rather silly.

I don't know how I feel about the specific examples you listed, but I'd like to back you up on this premise and offer my take on the subject.

Randomness works just fine in a competitive game where it is capable of testing the skill I call "reacting to unpredictable events." How can this skill be tested in a way that doesn't effectively end in raw gambling?

One, the random factor cannot be unreactable. This is the primary reason items got turned off back when Melee was young: that game has no way of turning off item containers, which have a 1/8 chance of exploding, so all items had to be turned off lest they dropped in front of your smash attack and killed you. Peach's turnips, for example, are a little better about this, other than that it can be hard to tell if she pulled a stitchface or not (PMDT, red stitchface when?); her turnip pull animation is pretty long, so you're paying attention to what she pulls, and if she pulls an item there's a different audio cue.

Two, the results of the random factor cannot be overbearing. Losing the random outcome has to be a little worse than winning it for this to be meaningful, but the difference can't be so stark that the random factor decides many games. As completely unnecessary as tripping in Brawl was--it was a flat out bad mechanic, nobody here's gonna argue with that--tripping actually very rarely decided the outcomes of Brawl games, which is why it wasn't what killed Brawl despite being universally maligned (the pacing and character balance issues were much bigger factors, but that's another discussion). Random stage selection, however, could very easily decide sets--before everyone moved to stage striking for game 1, many old Melee rulesets used a random stage game 1, and if you know the difference between Marth on Dreamland and Marth everywhere else, you can tell why we no longer do that.

tl;dr: Randomness has to be something you can reasonably react to and cannot be so influential as to be the deciding factor in games. Once those two factors are fulfilled, randomness becomes arguably helpful, since it shuffles situations around enough that players can't just preplan everything, but instead must be ready for many scenarios.

Also, "randomness" after a fashion is inherent in competitive smash due to the little necessity we like to call seeding, but that's another discussion.

 

[KakuCP9]

@ MagnesD3
I seriously think you should sit down with other Ivysaur/Wario/Lucario mains because while I see where you are coming from, you are going harm the viability of those characters unless you understand the nuances of how they play and figure out ways properly compensate them before imposing this idea.

 

[Saproling]

Clearly not a charge move. Also clearly a huge part of links gameplan.

Obviously sarcasm just like its obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

Also why does Lucario get to start off with aura but I don't start off with some solar charge? #Furryprejudice #freethescalies

 

[MagnesD3]

@ MagnesD3
I seriously think you should sit down with other Ivysaur/Wario/Lucario mains because while I see where you are coming from, you are going harm the viability of those characters unless you understand the nuances of how they play and figure out ways properly compensate them before imposing this idea.

Lucario would definatly need compensation if he started each stock with nothing. Wario doesn't need any compensation at all. Ivysaur at most would maybe require less charge to obtain solar beam 20% instead of 25% or something like that and even then I fully believe she'd be fine without any buffs in exchange. (However she may need buffs regardless of this change but that's up to ivysaur players if she's considered bad by them even with this poorly designed move, ultimately that's a whole other discussion.)

 

[Saproling]

Ivysaur at most would maybe require less charge to obtain solar beam 20% instead of 25% or something like that and even then I fully believe she'd be fine without any buffs in exchange. (However she may need buffs regardless of this change but that's up to ivysaur players if she's considered bad by them even with this poorly designed move.)

Its 20 solar charge to get one now.

 

[MagnesD3]

Its 20 solar charge to get one now.

Nimigoha said 25% Im going off his word. A 5% decrease regardless.

 

[nimigoha]

It's actually 22, my mistake.

 

[MagnesD3]

It's actually 22, my mistake.

So I'd make it 17 or so.

 

[KakuCP9]

It's no near as simple as making the charge lower. Like I said, Ivysaur cannot simply choose to fire solarbeam whenever she wants and even with the setups, she still needs read someone's DI/SDI and if she fails to do this, Ivy will have to go through the process of out-fighting the opponent to get the charge back which requires a lot of ingenuity and MU insight. Again, you have to look at how gains her charge and uses the move because while holding on to the charge is silly, the rest of process is far, far from it.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Can we stop hiding behind "game design" as an argument to remove things. This is a competitive game, you expected to learn the mechanics of said game so it is not the same as a commercially launched game. If we can have better game design with no adverse affects, sure go for it. But when, in the name of game design, we take out currently fine mechanics and properties, that's where I take issue. The changes you are suggesting make FAR more an impact than you say or understand, all because you find it dumb that Wario players dont use Waft to recover, ever. Maybe that has something to do with it not being that good for recovery as well? Besides, how is resource management not an interesting idea that should be promoted? Like in the Lucario example, instead of burning all charges in an attempt to survive, you need to consider the gains and losses.

 

[steelguttey]

stop

u first <3

You understand that there's only five different Pikmin types and under set order every possible combination of four different plucked Pikmin in-a-row will automatically give Olimar the ability to kill with at least one of them, right?

you obviously know this but saying "a pikmin can kill" is kind of redundant because they kill at different percents, with pretty huge gaps in between for most. so yes, he can kill with at least one of them, but it would also be a total pain in the ass depending on where they are because of how weird whistle can be sometimes.

farming wouldn't even be a necessity, and even if it took forever to optimize in a game this wouldn't be a problem because, as you said,


and even if this was a real problem, Pikmin would have to be rebalanced around this anyway.

this is kind of a loaded argument so im gonna ask before i say something that'll let you edge all over me some more, what do you mean by rebalanced around set order?

The fact that you referred to the gained ability to consistently farm as a nerf blows my ****ing mind.

why are we still defending farming. farming shouldnt be promoted or kept in the game, its stupid and isnt exactly a part of olimar's "design" and shouldnt really be because like i said, its ****ing boring. hate to break it to you, but i dont like doing things that isnt interacting with my opponent while im playing fighting games. you sure got me tho with that "stop" i think im gonna rethink my statements now

if you like farming then play brawl or some ****, i dont know about you but actually ****ing hitting my opponent is much more fun than stalling the match so i can start winning the matchup. you do you tho, i guess.

 

[Rizner]

I never said variety wasn't a good thing I'm just saying that keeping a charge upon death is bad fighting video game design it honestly makes using these tools easier and creates no risk/reward situation unless it's last stock since you have the tool no matter what, when good tools like that have honestly no reason to be that way.
Very rarely do you ever see a good Wario use the waft for recover, they usually tank it for the next stock since it's easy to combo into and a kill move.

I'm confused by your logic - them making a decision and weighing options, even when one option is generally considered better, seems objectively less brain dead than saying use the option because there's nothing to weigh and decide on.

 

[InfinityCollision]

It's just a change for better design

You keep saying that, but I've yet to see you substantiate that argument.

Neither aura nor solarbeam promote degenerate gameplay; quite the opposite in fact. Removing carryover between stocks would, at face value, make those characters atypically momentum-based. There would be more incentive to use resources near the end of a stock rather than meaningful considerations of whether to use or preserve them. A player getting steamrolled would have more difficulty getting anything going, while an advantaged player would only benefit from whatever compensations you might propose. Instead of maintaining the status quo while improving design, I would argue that your proposals actually worsen it to no tangible benefit and would consume substantial dev resources in the process.

Waft could perhaps use a change, but I see carryover as less of a potential issue in that case than the timer-based nature of the move.

Also solar beam is 1 giant (1 dimensional literally) hitbox. its poorly done

Are you aware of why it's like that? I assure you it's not without reason.