Tier List Speculation

[Dart!]

That's just asking to get kidnapped

I'm serious about fox. No way in a game where more characters are insanely powerful AND fox is super nerfed is he the best character.

 

[GabPR]

That's just asking to get kidnapped

I'm serious about fox. No way in a game where more characters are insanely powerful AND fox is super nerfed is he the best character.

In a game where most of the characters are underveloped, He still is.

 

[Ningildo]

What is this, 3.0?

I'd like to see these "super powerful characters" and how they do against fox and others with reasoning rather then a vague af statement.

But then we would be talking about fox again...disrupting other, useful discussion and not getting anywhere.

Eh, welcome to tier list speculation, I guess...

 

[Boiko]

That's just asking to get kidnapped

I'm serious about fox. No way in a game where more characters are insanely powerful AND fox is super nerfed is he the best character.

I think he's the best, but I don't think he's in a stand alone top tier.

 

[steelguttey]

ipunchkidz vs lucky is a good example of why fox is so silly in this game. lucky had no mu experience and still won even tho it went to game 10 last stock

 

[Boiko]

ipunchkidz vs lucky is a good example of why fox is so silly in this game. lucky had no mu experience and still won even tho it went to game 10 last stock

Lucky has also been playing a very long time and is one of the top players in the world. He just figured out what he was up against and adapted well. It's not like Fox carried the win for him.

 

[Foo]

The thing with fox is that pretty much everything from melee carries over, and his neutral is so dominating that he can get away with playing the same way against pretty much everyone. I can't really think of any characters that basic fox stuff doesn't work against.

That's just asking to get kidnapped

I'm serious about fox. No way in a game where more characters are insanely powerful AND fox is super nerfed is he the best character.

Insanely powerful? This isn't 3.0, there were TONS of big nerfs from 3.5 to lots of characters. And fox being super nerfed? PLS Blaster decay, loss of shine invincibility for one frame, and a slightly weaker upsmash is not "super nerfed." He also gained PM physics stuff like approaching with rar air, b-reversing lasers, etc.

 

[steelguttey]

im not saying that either. im saying that lucky didnt have any matchup experience and had no idea how lucario works, but still won that just through melee fundamentals on his own. p remarkable but its still kinda dumb

 

[KhanYe]

Yeah I'm not sure I like the idea of Lucky winning against iPK as an example of why Fox is unfairly good. Lucky's real good, and iPK, while he has the greatest mastery of the character out of everyone, he still has a good amount of growth to do in terms of fundamentals. Lucky exploited iPK's weaknesses like any top Melee player would.

EDIT - Thanks @ TheGravyTrain , so OOS that would be 14 frames to get the first hit of usmash out if I'm not mistaken? That's another problem Lucario has, zero OOS options. The best thing he has is dair outta shield, which has a pretty small hitbox.

 

[eideeiit]

Did Lucky play Luck's Diddy while in Texas? Because I'd call that MU a lot more knowledge dependant than Lucario, whose neutral isn't really anything all that different from the normal that a player like Lucky is bound to know real well. Isn't the Lucario-Fox MU also something like 70-30 for Fox?

 

[GabPR]

Yeah I'm not sure I like the idea of Lucky winning against iPK as an example of why Fox is unfairly good. Lucky's real good, and iPK, while he has the greatest mastery of the character out of everyone, he still has a good amount of growth to do in terms of fundamentals. Lucky exploited iPK's weaknesses like any top Melee player would.

Lets be honest, we all know that the lead player with each character shows exactly what the characters limit is, players like M2K understand this well, thats why beating pink fresh was clearly a sign that lucas was overnerfed and should be buffed agains, same with lucario and IPK being beaten by one of the top foxes in the world, which clearly does not matter in PM... Kappa.

 

[eideeiit]

so OOS that would be 14 frames to get the first hit of usmash out if I'm not mistaken? That's another problem Lucario has, zero OOS options. The best thing he has is dair outta shield, which has a pretty small hitbox.

Because its an upsmash it can be used out of jump squat's first frame, so it's 11 frames if the upsmash comes out on frame 10. With upsmashes and upBs you don't have to wait out the jump squat, with everything else you do.

 

[KhanYe]

Because its an upsmash it can be used out of jump squat's first frame, so it's 11 frames if the upsmash comes out on frame 10. With upsmashes and upBs you don't have to wait out the jump squat, with everything else you do.

Thank you for that info!

If I'm not mistaken, that means that usmash OOS is still not really viable against solid shield pressure then?

 

[Foo]

Thank you for that info!

If I'm not mistaken, that means that usmash OOS is still not really viable against solid shield pressure then?

Not really, no, because it doesn't hit behind you so you may as well just grab. It'd only be useful against someone jumping over your head.

However, you have two frame 4 aerials so I doubt lucario's oos is THAT bad.

 

[Boiko]

Not really, no, because it doesn't hit behind you so you may as well just grab. It'd only be useful against someone jumping over your head.

However, you have two frame 4 aerials so I doubt lucario's oos is THAT bad.

Yeah, but how fast could he reasonably do those accounting for jump squat? Seven frames? That's the equivalent of a shield grab and doesn't do well against pressure.

 

[Foo]

Yeah, but how fast could he reasonably do those accounting for jump squat? Seven frames? That's the equivalent of a shield grab and doesn't do well against pressure.

Not saying it's good oos, but it's not terrible. Fair and upsmash cover jump, and dair can cover pressure from behind.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Usmash can be turned around, and most crossups aren't going to be so frame-tight that it won't work against them.
OoS aerials have the advantage of drift control and OHC.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ KhanYe


With upsnash OoS, it would be frame 11 at its earliest. You don't have to wait the whole jump squat to cancel into an up smash. If you want a bigger hitbox than Dair you could use Fair. That is also frame 7 OoS.

 

[Neighbor]

But Lucky has been in SoCal playing IPK and other lucario mains for some time now, so he did have the MU experience. That set wasn't alot of wow fox is really good, but more of damn IPK plays lucario so freaking well that he can keep up with such a high level fox the entire time.

 

[DMG]

Did Lucky play Luck's Diddy while in Texas? Because I'd call that MU a lot more knowledge dependant than Lucario, whose neutral isn't really anything all that different from the normal that a player like Lucky is bound to know real well. Isn't the Lucario-Fox MU also something like 70-30 for Fox?

There were a lot of people Lucky didn't meet or play in Bracket at Texas, pretty sure Luck Lunchables and Dakpo were some of them. Have no idea if any of them got a set in like friendlies or a MM, would have been mad neato

 

[pkblaze]

I like how the Tier LIst thread has been the past two days.

What are you talking about? I have a bunch of popcorn and this thread doesn't have enough salt!

 

[Narpas_sword]

ipunchkidz vs lucky is a good example of why fox is so silly in this game. lucky had no mu experience and still won even tho it went to game 10 last stock

maybe he was just..



Lucky.

 

[ChiePet]

I read page after page because midst the salt I find REALLY good info in this thread,

besides that, I think personally that Peach is fine where she is, I cant think of any tools that could be given to her that would help any if at all bad MUs without changing her too much, and she's perfect as is.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

Just to weigh in on the Lucky/IPK set, I think that it shows very little about Fox's dominance in the metagame. It's just that the Lucario/Fox matchup is very tough. IPK has been playing a lot of sets across tourneys against Westballz, K9, as well as some Wolf players down in Socal, but Lucky has not been playing very much PM and only really played against IPK's Lucario that day. Lucky is a highly adaptive player and navigates the neutral game phenomenally. And the thing about Lucario is that his neutral game is highly exploitable by a character with the mobility that Fox has. If you watch the set, IPK gets fairly clean punishes on Lucky, but a lot of them were from missed techs and punishes rarely went past ~40%. Fox, on the other hand, can waveshine across the stage into an usmash and snipe out an uair, netting lots of %. Lucky can "just do Fox things" because many characters with high mobility can just play their own game against Lucario. Most of Lucario's strengths lie in his punish game and his mixup potential with aura. Lucky simply outspaced or outmaneuvered all of Lucario's options (You see a lot of whiffed down-b utilts in the set). Because Fox is a high mobility character. So is Falcon. So is ZSS. So is Sonic. All of whom I believe can give Lucario problems. And all of whom will show Lucario struggling in the neutral just like Lucky has with his Fox.

I just think the set highlights how tough the matchup is if anything. Lucario gets small punishes, gets comboed very easily, has very weak OoS options, and can get edge guarded by Fox bair pretty cleanly.

Fox gets edge guarded if Lucario burns an aura on the super-ball. And he gets comboed hard if he doesn't tech.

Both players are of top caliber, but matchups are matchups and Lucario loses this one. A drop in the bucket as to why Fox may be OP, sure, but definitely not a central reason for it.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ill guarantee you vs top players its not easy to have a good neutral, Ganon still suffers from a lot of positions.

Trust me, I know. But winning neutral is much, much easier against the majority of the PM cast when compared to the relevant Melee cast, that's all. Especially given his updated kit.

Playing Silent Wolf and Bladewise on a frequent basis assures me I know just how crappy his neutral actually is, but it's improved, along with the punishes and offstage game, to the point where its hard to feel absolutely pooped on to the point of a matchup being impossible.

 

[Deleted member]

There were a lot of people Lucky didn't meet or play in Bracket at Texas, pretty sure Luck Lunchables and Dakpo were some of them. Have no idea if any of them got a set in like friendlies or a MM, would have been mad neato

This is correct, Dakpo/Luck/I never played Lucky in bracket. Dakpo and I beat Luck and Lucky in teams, and dakpo played friendlies with lucky that went even afaik... but thats it

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm serious about fox. No way in a game where more characters are insanely powerful AND fox is super nerfed is he the best character.

Do you have a different character to put forth as better than Fox? It's not particularly constructive to just disagree with who is the best character otherwise.
A huge amount of the characters who were "insanely powerful" in 3.0 are no longer such in 3.5, and describing Fox as "super nerfed" is quite misleading given his actual changelog from Melee. It also ignores other variables such as the stagelist that benefits Fox greatly compared to Melee and allows him to fully avoid Final Destination in Best of 5 sets.

 

[DMG]

Mewtwo?
Diddy?
Pit?
Wario?
Snake?
D3?
Falco?
Marth?
Falcon?
Sonic?
Ike?

D3 was the only character I failed to strike thru, so D3 is my final answer Regis!

Edit: *Dun Dun Dun*

I'm sorry, the correct answer was "Fox > Fox" Do not Pass Go, Do not Collect $200

 

[Frost | Odds]

I mean, technically Fox >= Fox.

I've been playing a bunch of metaknight recently, and he's a ton of fun, but it kinda bothers me how tornado and sideB are both so terrible/niche in general. Hell, even Falco's side b has cool onstage uses (ie. tech chase with it and grab the ledge with reverse box); MK's is just awful.

He and Pit both feel almost solid, they both just have a weird kinda yuck factor that makes me feel like I'm doing worse than I should. Maybe it's just that they're not Bowser. Who knows.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Falco's side-b onstage to ledge isn't as niche as MK's same thing...?

But yeah tornado is kinda terrible. I think it should just be an alternative tool for finishing off the top after a uair string, if it were harder to escape but also had weak-ish final hit knockback it'd be gold for that zone straight above MK where sweetspot up-b is hard to hit without necessarily killing as early as it could in brawl (or even as early as up-b can now).

 

[Juushichi]

i feel like you can only make tornado either very mediocre or very good. considering the rest of his kit, i would rather it be mediocre.

personally, i feel like mk is still pretty decent whereas pit is a huge bag of "why am i playing you?" you can argue that MK (i'd argue that MK is better vs floaties than sheik tho) has that with sheik, but with Pit there's not even a character that does his niche better because he's a collaboration of a bunch of mediocre tools that a lot of characters do individually better.

at least Mario is still an obnoxious **** but his grab game is good. pit is literally "yeah, why?"

 

[steelguttey]

mk's tornado was dumb cus it had stupid invincibility. you can make it good in other ways.

more damage, hell, give it a decent windbox around it so it pulls you in would be cool. just not completely useless.

i can see it as a way to cover rolls options that would be cool

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

3.02 nado had cool platform pressure
The added landing in 3.5 made that not a thing
@ steelguttey what invincibility

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Tornado is a recovery move. Side-B is a recovery move and can help in weird techchase situations. Both have their uses, but are generally bad moves. I don't want to much MK buffing in general, because it is the worst if your character costantly gets rebuffed and renerfed like Sonic.

 

[steelguttey]

3.02 nado had cool platform pressure
The added landing in 3.5 made that not a thing
@ steelguttey what invincibility

brawl nado invincibilty

 

[Scatz]

Brawl nado did not have invincibility. It was extremely high priority.

 

[DMG]

Grounded Shuttle Loop had invincibility in Brawl, def not nado though

Trust my Purple Banner or something

 

[steelguttey]

blah im mistaken for weather dong

same ****

 

[DMG]

blah im mistaken for weather dong

*cough* guess I'm getting a new sig

 

[steelguttey]

im honored