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Tier List Speculation

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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Double post but I didn't see this.


What i mean is utilt c4. Luigi utilt - downb is not confirmed kill on snake at 68%. Snake utilt- downb on Luigi at 68% is. Thats all i'm saying.
uptilt upair misfire -> get ****ed

also pm luigi in 2017 is ledgedash stalling while farming misfires and retaining invuln and snakes stage control doesn't actually do **** against a ledgedashing invuln luigi
 

bboss

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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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yeah true
but lol if they di out anything combo is dead



people overate snakes stage control
it actually suks thats why most snakes are semi-agressive
nah dude that's why misfire is good because it hits di away and uptilt sends so straight up that you get uair for p much free

misfire IS the mixup for if they di away the upair
if they di up and in to avoid misfire they get shoryu or one of luigi's aerials
or just another misfire

like best case scenario is that you get hit off stage at which point snake just kinda gets put into a blender cycle of recovery

but yeah if a luigi has a misfire and gets an upair anywhere between 50% and 120% that's pmuch a dead char

but these are all memes to hide the fact that the only character I know about in this game is luigi who is p solidly high-ish-mid tier in a game where the majority of the cast is high-ish-midtier

olimar is a good character who in THEORY could be definitely viable and at/near/better than highish mid but the amount of attention that somebody has to pay to the game is practically prohibitive on the timescale of the life of this game of seeing a super successful olimar

it'll be one of those things where somebody in japan in 10 years has the world's most godlike olimar but they don't care enough about the game or nobody else in the world will care enough to give them the time of day or importance that the top players of today have

blah blah blah

go play olimar and prove me wrong
 
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bboss

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nah dude that's why misfire is good because it hits di away and uptilt sends so straight up that you get uair for p much free
for some reason i thought you were talkin about sweetspot upb idk why

but these are all memes to hide the fact that the only character I know about in this game is luigi who is p solidly high-ish-mid tier in a game where the majority of the cast is high-ish-midtier
literally so true

olimar is a good character who in THEORY could be definitely viable and at/near/better than highish mid but the amount of attention that somebody has to pay to the game is practically prohibitive on the timescale of the life of this game of seeing a super successful olimar
literally no tourney results. if like june or gallo or someone developed the meta for olimar then he would be decently viable. but as it stands now he sux and is fairly hard to play at a competitive level.

go play olimar and prove me wrong
no
 

Nausicaa

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I'm a chirpchirpmuderer

Would be a good tag

The blood of the crypt and the blood of the ohmu are the same

edit: just whipped up a rough-list since I posted here and it's kind of the topic

Fox was 12th
Dang I look down on that character hard haha
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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I have a new tier list
Edit: Terribly sorry about the tier list image not showing up. Been having laptop issues. Instead, I'll type out the text version.

S TIER (Top):
Meta Knight
Wolf
Fox
Diddy Kong

A TIER (Upper):
Sheik
Wario
Mewtwo
Game & Watch
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach

B TIER (High):
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Falco
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Lucario

C TIER (Upper Mid):
Sonic
Donkey Kong
R.O.B.
Luigi

D TIER (Lower Mid):
Ike
Samus
Roy
Pikachu
Link
Ivysaur

E TIER (Low):
Ice Climbers
Squirtle
Charizard
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Pit
Zelda
Yoshi
Olimar

F TIER (Bottom):
Bowser
Kirby
King Dedede

Characters are in order.

Thought I'd rejoin this conversation since I love PM and I'd like to become more invested in the scene.
 
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bboss

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S TIER:
Meta Knight
Wolf
Fox
Diddy Kong

A TIER:
Sheik
Wario
Mewtwo
Game & Watch
Captain Falcon
Snake
Peach

B TIER:
Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus
Marth
Falco
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Lucario

C TIER:
Sonic
Donkey Kong
R.O.B.
Luigi

D TIER:
Ike
Samus
Roy
Pikachu
Link
Ivysaur

E TIER:
Ice Climbers
Squirtle
Charizard
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Pit
Zelda
Yoshi
Olimar

F TIER:
Bowser
Kirby
King Dedede
kdd is not the worst character. olimar, puff and kirby are worse for sure. mewtwo should be higher. snakes to high. other than that good.

(literally what I always say for a tier list)
 
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Hat N' Clogs

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kdd is not the worst character. olimar, puff and kirby are worse for sure. mewtwo should be higher. snakes to high. other than that good.

(literally what I always say for a tier list)
I considered placing DDD roughly even with Bowser, but I ended up not doing such. I placed Bowser higher because Odds gets some results with Bowser, while idk what results Kirby or DDD get. Why don't you think DDD is the worst? On that note, why do you think Oli, Puff, Kirby, and Snake should be lower, and Mewtwo should be higher?

Edit: I have heard of the DDD main Ripple and a Kirby main named Yador, but iirc Odds places significantly higher on average than Ripple or Yador. Correct me if I'm wrong plz
 
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Frost | Odds

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I get results in spite of bowser tyvm, pretty much only play him now when tourney nerves are making my hands shake to the point where I can't play sonic.
 

Narpas_sword

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Bowser is last lol, because no fireball.
I think odd's posted his a page or 2 back.

i mainly came to post a sadface about putting samus D tier though =(
 
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bboss

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hy don't you think DDD is the worst? On that note, why do you think Oli, Puff, Kirby, and Snake should be lower, and Mewtwo should be higher?
DDD is not the worst because he has a lot of great tools for camping and approaching (Waddle dees & doos, occasionally gordos, dtilt, ftlit for spacing, etc)
Puff should be lower because she was nerfed and she kind of sucks. ;D But really though, her only good trait is air mobility, and if you want to play a good character that's better with good air mobility, just play Wario.
Kirby is better than her melee appearance but worse than brawl IMO. When you take a game like PM with most of the characters having overpowered vertical moves (fox, g&w, snake, mewtwo, wario, mario, luigi, etc. etc.) and give kirby a weight of seventy-something units and give him a fall speed of something like 1.5 i believe, he logistically can't compete with the rest of the cast, given her sucky approach options, sort-of-bad neutral, and hard-to-land kill moves. mewtwo and peach can because they have damage rackers. Kirby only has dair and you can sdi out super easy.
oli has to be played campy and if you play against a Wario or Falcon that is any good you will get destroyed.
Snake should be lower because peepl are beginnign to figure out to "just play Sheik / Zelda" against Snake, which eliminates stickyand takes away a lot of his kill options, with the only sticky kill option now being tranq -> sticky -> utilt/uthrow -> detonation.
Mewtwo has a lot of undiscovered potential, from his rather generous tas-like autocancels, great nair, highly damaging throws / kill throws, superb projectile, good neutral, and good defensive and aerial game.
 
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KinGly

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Snake should be lower because peepl are beginnign to figure out to "just play Sheik / Zelda" against Snake, which eliminates stickyand takes away a lot of his kill options, with the only sticky kill option now being tranq -> sticky -> utilt/uthrow -> detonation.
Sheik and Zelda don't eliminate sticky lmao. Transform takes a lot of time so you can just set up a new punish unless you're offstage, in which case they won't be edgeguarding you and you recover for free. And even then, not everyone is gonna have a good sheik or zelda to counterpick with.

Sheik bodies snake but transform is a very small part of why she does
 

mimgrim

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DDD is not the worst because he has a lot of great tools for camping and approaching (Waddle dees & doos, occasionally gordos, dtilt, ftlit for spacing, etc)
Puff should be lower because she was nerfed and she kind of sucks. ;D But really though, her only good trait is air mobility, and if you want to play a good character that's better with good air mobility, just play Wario.
Kirby is better than her melee appearance but worse than brawl IMO. When you take a game like PM with most of the characters having overpowered vertical moves (fox, g&w, snake, mewtwo, wario, mario, luigi, etc. etc.) and give kirby a weight of seventy-something units and give her a fall speed of something like 1.5 i believe, she logistically can't compete with the rest of the cast, given her sucky approach options, sort-of-bad neutral, and hard-to-land kill moves. mewtwo and peach can because they have damage rackers. Kirby only has dair and you can sdi out super easy.
oli has to be played campy and if you play against a Wario or Falcon that is any good you will get destroyed.
Snake should be lower because peepl are beginnign to figure out to "just play Sheik / Zelda" against Snake, which eliminates stickyand takes away a lot of his kill options, with the only sticky kill option now being tranq -> sticky -> utilt/uthrow -> detonation.
Mewtwo has a lot of undiscovered potential, from his rather generous tas-like autocancels, great nair, highly damaging throws / kill throws, superb projectile, good neutral, and good defensive and aerial game.
Guy, there's this little thing called the enter button that you can press not once but twice for an extra line break to make your paragraphs a lot easier on the eyes. I just saying.

Puff should be lower because she was nerfed and she kind of sucks. ;D But really though, her only good trait is air mobility, and if you want to play a good character that's better with good air mobility, just play Wario.
I don't really care about discussing her exact placement on a tier list and how high or low she should be but if you think her only good trait is her air mobility then just lol. Let's just ignore things like Bair (case could be made for Fair and Nair as well), Rest, and the lowkey underused/underrated DACUS. Sure she's a relatively simply character in terms of tools she uses but they are some really good ****ing tools though. I mean, I don't really disagree with you conclusion about Wario but still, to say her only good trait is air mobility is lol worthy, she has more things going for her then that.

Kirby is better than her melee appearance but worse than brawl IMO. When you take a game like PM with most of the characters having overpowered vertical moves (fox, g&w, snake, mewtwo, wario, mario, luigi, etc. etc.) and give kirby a weight of seventy-something units and give her a fall speed of something like 1.5 i believe, she logistically can't compete with the rest of the cast, given her sucky approach options, sort-of-bad neutral, and hard-to-land kill moves. mewtwo and peach can because they have damage rackers. Kirby only has dair and you can sdi out super easy.
I don't think you understand how Kirby works in the context of PM. His approach options aren't that bad what with multiple jumps and decent ground mobility stats (and crouch) combined with moves like Bair make approaching with him workable, not amazing but doable, and other things like dash attack help as well. I'd rather approach with then with a decent amount of other characters.

Again, neutral is decent, maybe slightly above average (is debatable), with, as I already stated, multiple jumps, decent ground mobility, crouch, and Bair. He also has good things in Dtilt and Aerial Hammer for spacing and Utilt is a great anti-air if your good at pivoting.

And his kills moves aren't that hard to land.

And Kirby has more then just Dair for racking up damage lol.

I would mention his edge guarding capabilities but there's little point when a good percentage of the case, him included, has like top 5 edge guarding capabilities rofl.
 

bboss

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Sheik and Zelda don't eliminate sticky lmao. Transform takes a lot of time so you can just set up a new punish unless you're offstage, in which case they won't be edgeguarding you and you recover for free. And even then, not everyone is gonna have a good sheik or zelda to counterpick with.

Sheik bodies snake but transform is a very small part of why she does
Uh, yes, they do. I mean, if you are a good sheik who knows anything about matchups at all, sticky will be eliminated, and I beileve there may be some intangibility frames in the down-b transformation, so if you get stickied as Sheik, you can just down-b and then grounded up-b out as Zelda in a random direction.
It is actually hard to punish down-b transformation with a move other than utaunt, mine, or fsmash. Transform does take time, but "setting up a punish" is only good if you have port priority, in most cases you'll get one hit, two if lucky and at low %, and maybe more if you uair.

Why does Sheik body Snake? If not for the sticky Snake would win. Sheik has huge problems approaching against a good Snake, and d-throw can be di out -> tech ind.

I don't really care about discussing her exact placement on a tier list and how high or low she should be but if you think her only good trait is her air mobility then just lol. Let's just ignore things like Bair (case could be made for Fair and Nair as well), Rest, and the lowkey underused/underrated DACUS. Sure she's a relatively simply character in terms of tools she uses but they are some really good ****ing tools though. I mean, I don't really disagree with you conclusion about Wario but still, to say her only good trait is air mobility is lol worthy, she has more things going for her then that.
yeah, sure, puff has some great moves. I use dacus a lot as puff against grounded fox but I try to stay in the air amap w/ puff (and wario for that matter) because of bair. All i'm saying is puff was transitioned from brawl not as well as the rest of the cast; they didn't give her a supermove like ivy's beam or snake's sticky.

I don't think you understand how Kirby works in the context of PM. His approach options aren't that bad what with multiple jumps and decent ground mobility stats (and crouch) combined with moves like Bair make approaching with him workable, not amazing but doable, and other things like dash attack help as well. I'd rather approach with then with a decent amount of other characters.
Yeah lol... I've never played a good Kirby so idk

Puff wasnt nerfed, shes virtually exactly the same as her melee self.

Shes worse off because the surrounding viable cast is a lot different than melee.
Yeah but you'll notice uthrow rest isn't nearly as good.
 
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PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

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transform gives sheik/zelda and option where there isn't any but still isn't a net positive

you have to structure your gameplan around getting space/time to transform which means you forfeit neutral for that segment of time

obviously you get around being in an incredibly disadvantageous position while stickied and snake having easy confirms, but transform doesn't negate the presence of a stick in the matchup
 

mimgrim

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yeah, sure, puff has some great moves. I use dacus a lot as puff against grounded fox but I try to stay in the air amap w/ puff (and wario for that matter) because of bair. All i'm saying is puff was transitioned from brawl not as well as the rest of the cast; they didn't give her a supermove like ivy's beam or snake's sticky.
Your looking at it wrong. Don't look at it as a transition from Brawl Puff, cause she ain't. You have to look at it from Melee Puff, cause Brawl Puff sucks ass and Project M Puff is like way better then Brawl Puff.

And she already has a "supermove" (And I really wouldn't call Snake's Sticky a "supermove"), its called rest.

Puff wasnt nerfed, shes virtually exactly the same as her melee self.

Shes worse off because the surrounding viable cast is a lot different than melee.
Mostly, but she did gain a few new tricks thanks to Brawl stuff. Obligatory Puff's DACUS is actually really ****ing good.

Yeah but you'll notice uthrow rest isn't nearly as good.
That pretty much what Narpas was getting at. Uthrow is literally the same from Melee but its not as good because it doesn't work on as many characters as it needs to as it did in Melee. It still destroys Spacies in PM just like in Melee. Uthrow is the same and functions like Melee, there's just more viable characters it doesn't work as well against.
 

Avro-Arrow

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My problem here is assuming sheik makes snake unviable. The same thing is often said about Peach/ICs in melee and the general opinion of Sheik/Snake doesn't even come close to as bad as the general opinion of Peach/ICs. And you don't see every player picking Peach just to destroy ICs. M2K does it, but that's the only example I can think of.

I think the matchup is in the neighbourhood of -2 for Snake, although popular opinion seems to be something like -3. For Peach/ICs, popular opinion seems to be -3 or worse.

Regardless, Snake can still ztd Sheik and it's not always feasible for her to transform to Zelda. For example, do a throw combo into sticky. Sheik can miss the tech and you continue punish, or Sheik can tech roll and be at frame disadvantage (not the best time to transform). Dair --> sticky is a similar concept. Matchup's not great but Snake can still low profile crouch, live for a decently long time and recover well (unless Sheiks suddenly get way better at edge guarding Snake).

As for the transformation punishes, it's got low endlag and the time it takes to load Zelda or Sheik is dependent on the USB speed or something. So it's janky in that sense, and combined with its low endlag it can be hard to punish.

Kirby is kinda bad but meh overall.

And Puff sucks.

Oh yeah, and for whoever said Puff's fair is good needs to turn on debug mode. Her frame data's atrocious.
 

mimgrim

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And Puff sucks.

Oh yeah, and for whoever said Puff's fair is good needs to turn on debug mode. Her frame data's atrocious.
And you suck at debug labbing.

https://smashboards.com/threads/jigglypuff-frame-data-3-6β.387392/

If you really think that's atrocious frame data then what are you smoking?

It has an IASA at frame 35, comparatively Bair has an IASA of 31. 4 frames total difference there, that doesn't scream atrocious to me, unless you also think Bair is bad as well? And they both auto cancel from a shorthop.

Sounds like someone needs to git gud at debug mode instead, cause I got similar results to that thread when I went I tested it in debug real quick just to see if there was something to your claim.

Also looking at charactrer's in a vacuum and basing stuff solely on frame data is a really bad habbit to get into, because it doesn't speak the whole story. To bring up something Nausicaa Nausicaa would bring up a good while back when people would pull the frame data card is that like Samus's whole kit, or most of it (don't remember which) is all punishable by rest, according to frame data. Something to think about.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think Puff sucks all that much in PM like a lot of people seem to claim in this thread and think a lot of it probably comes from inexperience with character and maybe not having a good puff in your scene, I don't think she's great either. Probably somewhere in the middle of the pack, maybe ever so slightly higher.
 

Sempai

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Puff wasnt nerfed, shes virtually exactly the same as her melee self.

Shes worse off because the surrounding viable cast is a lot different than melee.
Exactly. She didnt change, everybody else got better.

Actually, the good melee characters didn't change.
The problem are things like PM Mew2 which puff cries against, Just ask Hbox.
 

bboss

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Your looking at it wrong. Don't look at it as a transition from Brawl Puff, cause she ain't. You have to look at it from Melee Puff, cause Brawl Puff sucks *** and Project M Puff is like way better then Brawl Puff.

And she already has a "supermove" (And I really wouldn't call Snake's Sticky a "supermove"), its called rest.
Actually, she was transitioned from Brawl Puff. It's not like they took the files from Melee and stuck them in the wii for Project M. There are extremely small nuances between PM puff and Melee puff,

M2K does it, but that's the only example I can think of.
M2k also gets wobbled by Nintendude and looks like he's gonna cry :scared:

I think the matchup is in the neighbourhood of -2 for Snake, although popular opinion seems to be something like -3. For Peach/ICs, popular opinion seems to be -3 or worse.
Yeah that's probably right

Regardless, Snake can still ztd Sheik and it's not always feasible for her to transform to Zelda. For example, do a throw combo into sticky
Not sure if you understand how Snake's throws work. The only throw that combos into sticky is uthrow di read. They can't "tech" uthrow except at sub-35%, and at that percent you should be focusing on chaining uthrow or utilt juggles.

Sheik can miss the tech and you continue punish, or Sheik can tech roll and be at frame disadvantage (not the best time to transform).
Again, Snake's only two throws that are tech rolled are fthrow and bthrow, the noob killers.

PM like a lot of people seem to claim in this thread and think a lot of it probably comes from inexperience with character and maybe not having a good puff in your scene,
I have a great puff in my scene. I've never lost to him. That's why I think the character sucks.
 
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Nausicaa

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Snake
Snake struggles with Sheik the same way others do, in the sense that she's really good at applying pressure while holding space and there's not much he can do about it.
If a character can threaten him without getting Grabbed or clipped by UpB OOS, then he's in a pickle. With good aerial/ftilt/dtilt/jab, and a Grab to match his, she can just kind of 'be near' and he has to do something about it or he'll be on the receiving end of some kind of mix-up or needing to defend himself or lose stage, etc.

Zelda actually works well against Snake too, and if it weren't for his vertical kills being so centralizing to him then he'd be in major trouble. It's the same way Ike/Ivy/Puff can mess him up. He doesn't have the distance-closing to turn a rising aerial from them into an offense, and can't evade a following/falling aerial without losing stage and not being able to come back and punish it, or possibly being totally poorly spaced if he runs in to try a counter-offensive. Other characters (everyone from Mario to Fox) can at least work around things like rising Fairs in threatening ways, even if they shield it. Snake can't do crap unless he hard-reads and messes up spacing.

It's kind of why a standing Ike/Ivy/Puff/etc will be more of a threat to Snake than someone like a DDing Marth or DJCing Ness or whatever, who uses movement to control that space. Snake doesn't have what's needed to 'gain' stage if the opponent doesn't go anywhere and just winds-up hit after hit, or sits at that Sheik/Ike/etc range where if Snake does an action that doesn't hit, he gets smacked, and if he doesn't do an action, he's waiting on an unfavorable RPS situation.
You can even see this in really old tourneys, where Zero's Fox would macro-space with lasers + nair>shine>nair and go back to lasers. Don't need to play in middle-ranges or try to do mix-ups with DD speed AT ALL because Snake folds to simply being at a space that's threatening while the opponent doesn't even try to make openings. Patience and junk, check for that stuff next time you watch Snake's. It's pretty easy to see.

Puff
It's been a while, but I think it's everything but Jab and projectiles (and Grab) by Samus on Puffs shield are 100% guaranteed Rests. Unless light-shielding. And I think it's like 1 frame (so TAS needed) if it's on tippered Ftilt and Zair. Still hilarious though.

Puff is polarizing and still works great.

I won't make an argument for her... but I'll say that there's something worth considering that doesn't seem to get enough consideration when it comes to her.

Most of the PM cast go things that are useful for clipping opponents out of DD/speed movement, and comboing, and edgeguarding, and that's all great against all of the Melee-tops. But this stuff doesn't really apply to Puff. She's probably one of the few who can't even get close to Dthrow>Aerial killed by Mario and the like, doesn't get edgeguarded at all (she doesn't die early, because she has to HIT the blastzone, which no other character really 'has' to do to die), and she doesn't rely on grounded safe DD game where things like safe mix-ups on shields and covering dash/WD distance is really a factor to get hits on her.
What's needed for Puff to have trouble is either great controlling walls that can deal with her aerial disjoint (Marth Fairs or Falco Bair/Laser combinations), and an airborne kill-move that can connect on her. Meaning the aerial mobility to land it, and likely something else to lead into it (think CF/spacie Bairs/TL/etc, there's a reason peeps like Pika can't deal with Puff without good aerial kills in Melee, and Peach can't without the range and mobility to connect her needed hits)

And yeah... not too many characters actually have that in droves. They're all CAPABLE against Puff to some degree (Ness Uairs and Lucario Nairs and Snake Bairs hurt) but to land those things on a spaceship is hard af when that spaceship is across the stage and hitting you.

Puff has it no worse than other Melee-Tops when it comes to the transition to PM. That's all a myth. But she's defs polarizing (duh, she's a spaceship in a smash game) so isn't gonna be crushing tournaments solo or easily anytime ever.

Kirby
This character would probably be seen in a different light if we had super campy players like Chu just DD grabbing for days still.
Likely what makes this character 'suck in the eyes of smashers' so much is how there's no solid combo chains that can 0-death the way almost everyone else can, can't grab > finish the way almost everyone can, can't control space with moves and speed to bait and punish the way others do, etc.
But Kirby is by no means dysfunctional.

I won't make an argument for Kirby being 'good' but Kirby has a place in this game on a top-end competitive level for sure.
My dream of having 64 Fair (which would fit perfectly with PM Kirby) is gone forever, but Kirby is still solid, and a blast to play. When grounded-safe-stupid play becomes more of a thing, and players are as smart about holding position as plups sheik against Fox's, then Kirby will rise. Until then, in any unrefined meta-game, Kirby is gonna wallow in trash tier.
Can't flail = gg character at the current state of the game. Probably gonna be a while.
 

mimgrim

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Actually, she was transitioned from Brawl Puff. It's not like they took the files from Melee and stuck them in the wii for Project M. There are extremely small nuances between PM puff and Melee puff,
I mean if you want to be technical sure. Still doesn't really change that the PMDT changed her to be Melee Puff. The small nuances are basically just things Puff gain from Brawl enging like DACUS. Melee Puff is the original intent of the PMDT and Melee is a major base line for what PM was madd off of. Comparisons to Melee just make more sense, espically for a character like Puff who is a top tier in Mell.


I have a great puff in my scene. I've never lost to him. That's why I think the character sucks.
1 word. Vids.

Because: A. I doubt how "great" this Puff player is. B. How good you are. C. The overall strength of your scene.

Meanwhile I can give some vidyas of a Puff my scene (San Antonio) used to have who was the trolliest player I ever had the misfortune to play who would beat up even some of our ranked players, if you want. He been gone for a while though, is a Melee player and only came out to the weeklies cause nothing better to do and eould john a lot about the game, till he finally met his breaking point lol.
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
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@Mr Keyboard Warrior Puff's frame data is definitely subpar, and her fair is negatively disjointed (you're a debug master, so turn on the hitboxes overlay :)). So idk how I'm out to lunch here. "Character works fine" was also something I saw someone say up there; basically every character in this game functions at a level where they're usable, aka "fine."

Also re: Samus having her entire kit be restable, sure Puff happens to be good against Samus. It's also not possible to rest on reaction, without predicting the move is going to be thrown out ahead of time. It's disingenuous to say everything is punishable by rest when that's not what we observe at top level.

I'm also not saying Puff doesn't have winning matchups. Anyone with half a brain knows even the characters at the bottom of the barrel still win matchups (jury's out on someone like bowser I guess... people think he wins zero matchups, I'm skeptical but when am I not?).
 
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Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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getting the "correct DI" vs sheik's d/bthrows and teching doesn't actually let you escape from sheik & reset to neutral. watch this set.

starting a transform during a combo is also ideal, because if you are out of hitstun for 1 frame and then transform and then get hit, you never actually fully transition into zelda, the sticky drops, and you're still sheik. snake's a strong character with a bunch of good tools, so he can totally beat sheik. but she has obvious strengths and advantages in this particular matchup that the vast majority of the cast cannot match.
 

Hat N' Clogs

John Tavares is a Leaf
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Feb 9, 2012
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Southern tier NY state
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Made a new tier list. I keep redoing mine because while I am unwavering in certain character positions, I'm still unsure about how to order a lot of other characters (specifically, characters that aren't in top tier). So...here we go again:



Top tier- characters that dominate the meta
High tier- characters that have more exploitable weaknesses than top tiers and aren't dominant per se, but have a high amount of strengths.
Middle tier- characters that are pretty good, but can have a tough time surviving in the meta sometimes.
Low tier- characters that definitely have pros, but they struggle at the top level in general.

Characters are in order. So, Meta Knight > Wolf > Fox, etc.
Again, I haven't been following competitive PM as long as many people here, but I'm doing my best to understand this meta.
 
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