Throw KO Percents (1.0.8, DLC Characters Added)

[Kofu]

Kill throws are a big deal in Smash 4. It's a huge part of the reason why Ness is so scary. Like everything else, they get buffed by rage, which means that they can kill even earlier than in previous games. I've heard a lot of people go back and forth about which character's throws kill and which ones don't, and it seems there's a surprising lack of information/clarity on the subject. So I decided to go into training mode and test at what percents all throws kill.

Testing was done on the 3DS version on Final Destination/Omega Stages against a CPU Mario, with the thrower at center stage after respawing. Listed by character; click on a type of throw to get more specifics on which throws are the strongest.

Spoiler: Characters

Character | FThrow | BThrow | UThrow | DThrow
Bowser | 191 | 194 | 379 | 497
Bowser Jr. | 315 | 207 | 203 | 250
Captain Falcon | 256 | 214 | 207 | 454
Charizard | 208 | 228 | 133 | 386
Dark Pit | 199 | 298 | 211 | 428
Diddy Kong | 246 | 224 | 324 | 267
Donkey Kong | N/A | 196 | 253 | 441
Dr. Mario | 290 | 199 | 231 | 457
Duck Hunt | 292 | 343 | 222 | 463
Falco | 303 | 302* | 186* | 367
Fox | 290 | 477 | 289 | 511
Ganondorf | 269 | 220 | 244 | 395
Greninja | 608 | 303 | 175 | 464
Ike | 360 | 345 | 332 | 187
Jigglypuff | 750 | 511 | 283 | 331
King Dedede | 262 | 205 | 265 | 232
Kirby | 238 | 190 | 191 | 218
Link | 277 | 306 | 173 | 390
Little Mac | 310 | 214 | 266 | 537
Lucario (75%) | 306 | 265 | 255 | 452
Lucas | 211 | 190 | 155 | 345
Lucina | 528 | 435 | 180 | 363
Luigi | 266 | 204 | 201 | 669
Mario | 294 | 199 | 226 | 325
Marth | 528 | 435 | 179 | 363
Mega Man | 289 | 211 | 220 | 305
Meta Knight | 250 | 242 | 182 | 267
Mewtwo | 490 | 193 | 142 | 513
Mii Brawler | 257 | 414 | 397 | 258
Mii Gunner | 305 | 254 | 196 | 363
Mii Swordfighter | 322 | 270 | 330 | 286
Mr. Game & Watch | 369 | 367 | 274 | 267
Ness | 913 | 128 | 216 | 338
Olimar ( Red Pikmin) | 403 | 376 | 258 | 398
Olimar ( Yellow Pikmin) | 337 | 310 | 213 | 334
Olimar ( Blue Pikmin) | 225 | 201 | 157 | 222
Olimar ( White Pikmin) | 338 | 311 | 214 | 335
Olimar ( Purple Pikmin) | 337 | 320 | 214 | 334
Pac-Man | 413 | 215 | 208 | 446
Palutena | 426 | 219 | 193 | 862
Peach | 239 | 189 | 209 | 326
Pikachu | 425 | 265 | 205 | 229
Pit | 199 | 298 | 211 | 428
ROB | 281 | 234 | 162 | 460
Robin | 670 | 210 | 371 | 356
Rosalina | 238 | 237 | 207 | 379
Roy | 592 | 567 | 185 | 397
Ryu | 374 | 298 | 208 | 200
Samus | 296 | 324 | 274 | 366
Sheik | 586 | 783 | 553 | 377
Shulk | 261 | 246 | 320 | 252
Sonic | 187 | 208 | 196 | 660
Toon Link | 267 | 175 | 187 | 248
Villager | 999+ | 160 | 224 | 277
Wario | 199 | 284 | 235 | 999+
Wii Fit Trainer | 247 | 239 | 197 | 251
Yoshi | 332 | 324 | 515 | 849
Zelda | 252 | 203 | 215 | 637
Zero Suit Samus | 294 | 495 | 237 | 746

Spoiler: Special States and Throws

Character | FThrow | BThrow | UThrow | DThrow
Donkey Kong (Cargo Throws) | 262 | 216 | 329 | 293
Lucario (0%) | 435 | 385 | 358 | 633
Lucario (190%) | 195 | 161 | 160 | 292
Smash Shulk | 203 | 187 | 240 | 185
Deep Breathing Wii Fit Trainer | 218 | 213 | 172 | 222

The point of this table isn't to give precise KO percents but to help people compare which throws are able to kill and which ones aren't. This table doesn't take into account stage position, opponent weight, DI, or rage (especially for Lucario). It's up to you know know which throws will kill when and where on specific characters.

This was partially spurred by a post I made in this thread and also by Thinkaman's KO percent list, which, while relatively accurate, has a few errors that I think have to do with the multiple hitboxes that a lot of throws have.

A few points to note:

• All KO percents should be accurate although some might be variable by one or two percent.
• Lucario's baseline was considered 75%, not 0%, because his in-game data corresponds to his power at 75%.
• Falco's Up and Back Throws have "dead zones" between when the lasers stop hitting and when the throws start KOing outright. His UThrow killed Mario from 186% to 200%, then the lasers stopped hitting, after which it KOed again starting at 257%. His BThrow wouldn't kill from center stage and the lasers stopped hitting after 186%. It would likely kill if closer to the blastzone. I don't know how rage, DI, or target size will impact these throws. (Mii Gunner's throws didn't seem to have this problem).
• Pit and Dark Pit's throws are identical. Lucina and Marth's are with the exception of UThrow. I don't know why her UThrow killed 1% later (maybe because she's shorter?).
• White Pikmin throws uniformly killed 1% later than Yellow Pikmin did. Purple Pikmin were also close but were for some reason several percent weaker than the others on BThrow.
• Wario's DThrow wins the prize for the weakest throw in the game, with Villager's FThrow coming in second. Neither throw ever killed from center stage, even at 999%. Villager's did manage a KO at the ledge at high percents but Wario's didn't. I tried pummeling to bring the percent over 999% but it didn't seem to do anything. Either the game no longer keeps track of damage over that point, or it doesn't keep track of it past that point in Training Mode.
• The Mii Fighter KO percents are for mid/mid Miis.
  
• Throws by characters with tether grabs gave more variation than most, usually if they grabbed a foe further away. It was never by more than a few points, though.
• A few characters' Forward and Back Throws (Mr. Game & Watch, Ike, Bowser, and Yoshi) have identical stats but differing KO percents. I believe it has to do with where they're launched from more than anything else (Charizard and Mii Swordfighter also have similar Forward and BThrows).

I plan to add other stat modifiers (Shulk's Arts/Hyper Arts) and other Mii Fighter Height/Weight combinations later. I did Smash Shulk because it's the one that'll come up the most often. Let me know which combinations are most relevant for each Mii type and I'll test those first. Also, screw the Lucario testing. Also let me know if there's something blatantly wrong and I'll fix it.

Okay, have fun!

 

[Ffamran]

Yep... Falco's B-throw really is that wonky. I've had it kill at below 180%? - I'll need to check - before if the laser hits, but that was because I threw them close to the ledge. I can totally see that at center stage or from the opposite side, the laser would not be able to catch up or something like the opponent was able to DI out of it in time. Still, that's a good U-throw kill percentage. Hey, at least his Blaster is good for something.

And holy crap, Sonic with his U-, B-, and F-throw kill percentages.

 

[Dr. Z]

Thanks! I can tell you put a lot of time into this.

 

[ATH_]

This is actually pretty useful, I thought Toon Link's Up Throw was better but apparently his Back Throw is! Thanks!

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's throws except for D-throw (Who the hell uses that throw to kill lol. Well, maybe except for Multi Man Smash) are pretty good! U-throw is Top 15, F-throw is Top 19, and B-throw is Top 13! Nice! And D-throw is Top 5...... from the bottom. Though, it's not a kill throw anyway, it's his COMBO TOOL! MWAHAHAHAHA!

*Ahem*

Well, I see you put so much work to this. Thanks!

And this should be moved to the academy IMO. Though, I'm no mods, so.... I'll leave it to them to decide.

Fun Fact: Marth's U-throw kills 1% sooner than Lucina's!

 

[Tristan_win]

I swear there's a hidden meaning behind Sheik Bthrow having the highest rage effect but kills the latest

Still good thread!

 

[Octavium]

Very very useful data, thank you.

 

[Kofu]

Before starting this, I had in mind that I would test the percents when Jigglypuff and Bowser got KOed, but considering how long it took me to just get Mario's data, it probably won't happen.

Some surprises I had while doing this are finding out that Kirby and Peach have stronger Back Throws than a lot of other strong characters, that only two Down Throws are reasonable to kill with (three if you include Smash Shulk), and that Up Throw KO percents are generally on-par with or stronger than Back Throws on average. Not many grabs happen on higher platforms, but I expect people to start going for early UThrow kills more when they happen as time goes on. Also that there are actually throws that may not kill even at 999%.

From my experience (given that I play a really light character) throws with KO percents up to about 250% can KO close to the blastzone, although it depends on rage, opponent weight, and DI. I'm pretty certain I've been killed with a Zelda FThrow close to the edge before.

 

[M15t3R E]

Seems pretty accurate when not accounting for the rage effect. But that Ness backthrow at 128% at center stage! I play Ness often and that even scares me.

 

[Shaya]

Ness back throw is comparatively insane.
I think even if it was toned down to 150%ish range it would still be devastatingly powerful.
The way rage impacts on it is just holy moly.

 

[Kofu]

Ness back throw is comparatively insane.
I think even if it was toned down to 150%ish range it would still be devastatingly powerful.
The way rage impacts on it is just holy moly.

ROB's UThrow isn't that far behind in terms of numbers, but it doesn't get the positional advantage as often as Ness's BThrow does. I think it also gets the middle finger from weight/gravity a little more than Ness's. IIRC it only starts working on Dedede around 170%.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nice data.

Perhaps add a list of the top 10 most powerful throws/throws that actually kill below 200%? I say that because I suspect that's what most people would want to find in this pile of data and there's a lot to look though.

 

[san.]

At 100% damage for rage with optimal DI would also be favorable.

 

[Kofu]

Nice data.

Perhaps add a list of the top 10 most powerful throws/throws that actually kill below 200%? I say that because I suspect that's what most people would want to find in this pile of data and there's a lot to look though.

I'll probably add this once I get all of Shulk's data (which means adding Speed, Shield, and Buster for all Arts types as well as the other types of Smash).

At 100% damage for rage with optimal DI would also be favorable.

I agree, adding a list of kill percents at 100% from a fresh throw with good DI is a great idea. Probably would only do it for throws up to 200%, possibly 225% or 250%. I'd need someone to help me with it, though (and it won't be a quick thing, I can guarantee that ).

Additionally, san, which sizes of each of the Mii types would you recommend testing first? The Standard Custom Moveset thread recommends short/skinny for Brawler and short/wide for both Gunner and Swordfighter if I'm reading it correctly. Eventually I'd like to add all 9 variations for each Mii type though.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is an excellent thread! I already took out of it something I wasn't entirely sure about: from center stage at very high percent, Rosalina uthrow kills first, but near ledges fthrow and bthrow kill better (and about the same as each other). They all kill pretty badly, and I hadn't gotten around to sciencing it. I will, however, have this data instantly in mind for the upcoming tournament tomorrow; it may just come in handy.

Anyone looking at this thread should be looking at similar stuff for their characters. If both f and b kill earlier than u, u will only be useful on platforms (when you're closer to the ceiling). If either of f or b are really bad, u will always be correct when that's the direction to the nearest blast zone. Otherwise you just kinda have to figure in a rough way how close to the edge you need to be for each throw to be correct or not correct. That kind of logic will work well enough for you unless dthrow is a useful kill throw, but that's pretty much just Ike and Charizard (Ike's kill throws are pretty much just dominated by dthrow while Charizard uses it like a killing uthrow and just doesn't use uthrow).

If you want a simple power ranking from center stage against Mario, that's easy (will ignore power-up states like max aura Lucario, Deep Breathing WFT, and Smash Shulk)...

Ness bthrow (128%)
R.O.B. uthrow (143%)
Olimar blue uthrow (157%)
Villager bthrow (160%)
Link uthrow (173%)
Greninja uthrow (175%)
Toon Link bthrow (175%)
Sonic bthrow (178%)
Charizard dthrow (179%)
Marth uthrow (179%)
Lucina uthrow (180%)
Meta Knight uthrow (182%)
Ike dthrow (187%)
Sonic fthrow (187%)
Toon Link uthrow (187%)
Peach bthrow (189%)

This is the cut-off for throws that kill before 190%, and many throws start killing past that point. Yes, Sonic and Toon Link have two different kill throws at under 190%, and Sonic even has uthrow at 196% so Sonic's throws are just kinda amazing. The top four are also notably superior to all of the others; be extra careful of high percent grabs in those four match-ups. Peach is just barely superior to many others in this regard and the 187% kill throws are just secondary kill throws so starting from MK and working back are the characters I'd consider generally decent at killing off grabs with everyone else being mostly bad at it. I'd also like to point out that none of Zelda's throws kill at under 200%; people who equate her throws with Ness's are always funny but hopefully the situation is now more clear for everyone.

 

[san.]

I'll probably add this once I get all of Shulk's data (which means adding Speed, Shield, and Buster for all Arts types as well as the other types of Smash).


I agree, adding a list of kill percents at 100% from a fresh throw with good DI is a great idea. Probably would only do it for throws up to 200%, possibly 225% or 250%. I'd need someone to help me with it, though (and it won't be a quick thing, I can guarantee that ).

Additionally, san, which sizes of each of the Mii types would you recommend testing first? The Standard Custom Moveset thread recommends short/skinny for Brawler and short/wide for both Gunner and Swordfighter if I'm reading it correctly. Eventually I'd like to add all 9 variations for each Mii type though.

When I tested kill %s in training mode for Gunner, short/skinny to tall/fat only had a difference of 1% at most, surprisingly. Standard size should be an adequate approximation.

@ Amazing Ampharos , Ike's dthrow was above 187% with your test?

 

[PingPongCop]

Ness's Bthrow. Good LORD.

Went on FG today and played as Pikachu, got KO'd by a Ness Bthrow at 97%. Ness had 75% himself, however. It was center stage though, so still... incredibly broken.

 

[Luco]

Kill throws are a big deal in Smash 4. It's a huge part of the reason why Ness is so scary. Like everything else, they get buffed by rage, which means that they can kill even earlier than in previous games. I've heard a lot of people go back and forth about which character's throws kill and which ones don't, and it seems there's a surprising lack of information/clarity on the subject. So I decided to go into training mode and test at what percents all throws kill.

Testing was done on the 3DS version on Final Destination/Omega Stages against a CPU Mario, with the thrower at center stage after respawing. Listed by character; click on a type of throw to get more specifics on which throws are the strongest.

Spoiler: Characters

Character | FThrow | BThrow | UThrow | DThrow
Bowser | 191 | 194 | 379 | 497
Bowser Jr. | 315 | 207 | 203 | 250
Captain Falcon | 256 | 214 | 207 | 454
Charizard | 208 | 228 | 287 | 179
Dark Pit | 199 | 298 | 211 | 428
Diddy Kong | 246 | 224 | 237 | 408
Donkey Kong | N/A | 196 | 253 | 441
Dr. Mario | 290 | 199 | 231 | 457
Duck Hunt | 292 | 343 | 222 | 463
Falco | 303 | 302* | 186* | 367
Fox | 290 | 477 | 289 | 511
Ganondorf | 269 | 220 | 244 | 395
Greninja | 608 | 303 | 175 | 464
Ike | 360 | 345 | 332 | 187
Jigglypuff | 750 | 511 | 283 | 331
King Dedede | 262 | 205 | 265 | 232
Kirby | 238 | 190 | 191 | 233
Link | 277 | 306 | 173 | 321
Little Mac | 310 | 214 | 266 | 537
Lucario (75%) | 306 | 265 | 255 | 452
Lucina | 528 | 435 | 180 | 363
Luigi | 266 | 204 | 201 | 669
Mario | 294 | 199 | 226 | 325
Marth | 528 | 435 | 179 | 363
Mega Man | 289 | 211 | 220 | 305
Meta Knight | 250 | 242 | 182 | 267
Mii Brawler | 257 | 414 | 397 | 258
Mii Gunner | 305 | 254 | 196 | 363
Mii Swordfighter | 322 | 270 | 330 | 286
Mr. Game & Watch | 369 | 367 | 274 | 267
Ness | 913 | 128 | 216 | 338
Olimar ( Red Pikmin) | 403 | 376 | 258 | 398
Olimar ( Yellow Pikmin) | 337 | 310 | 213 | 334
Olimar ( Blue Pikmin) | 225 | 201 | 157 | 222
Olimar ( White Pikmin) | 338 | 311 | 214 | 335
Olimar ( Purple Pikmin) | 337 | 320 | 214 | 334
Pac-Man | 413 | 215 | 208 | 446
Palutena | 426 | 219 | 193 | 862
Peach | 239 | 189 | 209 | 326
Pikachu | 425 | 265 | 205 | 229
Pit | 199 | 298 | 211 | 428
ROB | 281 | 234 | 143 | 460
Robin | 670 | 210 | 371 | 356
Rosalina | 238 | 237 | 207 | 379
Samus | 296 | 324 | 274 | 366
Sheik | 586 | 783 | 553 | 377
Shulk | 261 | 246 | 320 | 252
Sonic | 187 | 178 | 196 | 660
Toon Link | 267 | 175 | 187 | 248
Villager | 999+ | 160 | 224 | 249
Wario | 199 | 284 | 235 | 999+
Wii Fit Trainer | 247 | 239 | 197 | 251
Yoshi | 332 | 324 | 515 | 849
Zelda | 252 | 203 | 215 | 637
Zero Suit Samus | 294 | 495 | 237 | 746

Spoiler: Special States and Throws

Character | FThrow | BThrow | UThrow | DThrow
Donkey Kong (Cargo Throws) | 319 | 338 | 445 | 647
Lucario (0%) | 435 | 385 | 358 | 633
Lucario (190%) | 195 | 161 | 160 | 292
Smash Shulk | 203 | 187 | 240 | 185
Deep Breathing Wii Fit Trainer | 218 | 213 | 172 | 222

The point of this table isn't to give precise KO percents but to help people compare which throws are able to kill and which ones aren't. This table doesn't take into account stage position, opponent weight, DI, or rage (especially for Lucario). It's up to you know know which throws will kill when and where on specific characters.

This was partially spurred by a post I made in this thread and also by Thinkaman's KO percent list, which, while relatively accurate, has a few errors that I think have to do with the multiple hitboxes that a lot of throws have.

A few points to note:

• All KO percents should be accurate although some might be variable by one or two percent.
• Lucario's baseline was considered 75%, not 0%, because his in-game data corresponds to his power at 75%.
• Falco's Up and Back Throws have "dead zones" between when the lasers stop hitting and when the throws start KOing outright. His UThrow killed Mario from 186% to 200%, then the lasers stopped hitting, after which it KOed again starting at 257%. His BThrow wouldn't kill from center stage and the lasers stopped hitting after 186%. It would likely kill if closer to the blastzone. I don't know how rage, DI, or target size will impact these throws. (Mii Gunner's throws didn't seem to have this problem).
• Pit and Dark Pit's throws are identical. Lucina and Marth's are with the exception of UThrow. I don't know why her UThrow killed 1% later (maybe because she's shorter?).
• White Pikmin throws uniformly killed 1% later than Yellow Pikmin did. Purple Pikmin were also close but were for some reason several percent weaker than the others on BThrow.
• Wario's DThrow wins the prize for the weakest throw in the game, with Villager's FThrow coming in second. Neither throw ever killed from center stage, even at 999%. Villager's did manage a KO at the ledge at high percents but Wario's didn't. I tried pummeling to bring the percent over 999% but it didn't seem to do anything. Either the game no longer keeps track of damage over that point, or it doesn't keep track of it past that point in Training Mode.
• The Mii Fighter KO percents are for mid/mid Miis.
  
• Throws by characters with tether grabs gave more variation than most, usually if they grabbed a foe further away. It was never by more than a few points, though.
• A few characters' Forward and Back Throws (Mr. Game & Watch, Ike, Bowser, and Yoshi) have identical stats but differing KO percents. I believe it has to do with where they're launched from more than anything else (Charizard and Mii Swordfighter also have similar Forward and BThrows).

I plan to add other stat modifiers (Shulk's Arts/Hyper Arts) and other Mii Fighter Height/Weight combinations later. I did Smash Shulk because it's the one that'll come up the most often. Let me know which combinations are most relevant for each Mii type and I'll test those first. Also, screw the Lucario testing. Also let me know if there's something blatantly wrong and I'll fix it.

Okay, have fun!

Nicely compiled Kofu! Quite similar to a project I'm in the middle of, actually

And before people ask about your data, I'm not sure if its common knowledge yet or not but 3DS and wii U vanilla FD blastzones are incredibly similar if not the same, so that may be something you could mention. :3

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

When I tested kill %s in training mode for Gunner, short/skinny to tall/fat only had a difference of 1% at most, surprisingly. Standard size should be an adequate approximation.

@ Amazing Ampharos , Ike's dthrow was above 187% with your test?

I just copied from the table into a more readable format for that specific information; I didn't test anything. I'm trusting Kofu's research was correct. I did, however, seem to make an error near the end of the table and overlook Ike dthrow. I have added it in.

 

[Kofu]

I just added Mewtwo's throw KO percents courtesy of @Lavani since I gave my 3DS code to a friend. Apparently FThrow wouldn't cooperate well but it's not like it'll ever really kill before his UThrow/BThrow anyway. I should be able to get the altered KO percents for ROB's and Charizard's UThrows, Kirby's DThrow, and Sonic's BThrow (EDIT: Diddy's UThrow/DThrow) in a day or two. Those are the only throws I'm aware of that were changed in 1.0.6. If there are others, let me know. May as well finish collecting Shulk's data while I'm at it, too. As a spoiler, ROB's UThrow is now weaker than Olimar's Blue Pikmin UThrow, making it the third strongest in the game (but still formidable).

Soon I plan on collecting more positional KO percents, probably on the Wii U version since it is generally more relevant. I may also test rage because I've KOed a lot with Mewtwo's UThrow at 120% or so.

 

[Luigi player]

Nice stuff. Would've been more useful if it was for the Wii U version though since it is the competitive standard and has smaller blastzones.

 

[Kofu]

UThrow 237 -> 321
DThrow 408 -> 361


DThrow 233 -> 218


UThrow 287 -> 225


UThrow 143 -> 162


BThrow 178 -> 208

Looks like they not only reduced Diddy's DThrow's power but they also upped the knockback growth. Sonic's BThrow was finicky. Usually the "deadly blow" effect ("red lightning") appearsa few percent after the move starts killing, but I noticed the CPU surviving it with the indicator at 220%. So I went back and started pausing to stop DI, and they would die as low as 195% in that case. But I wondered if that was partially momentum. So I started unpausing shortly after the throw, and 208% seemed to be the magic number.

Buuuut this may also mean that some of my data is incorrect! Which is lame. All the more reason to do some Wii U numbers soon.

 

[Kofu]

I can double post here to update my thread, right? I going to assume so. INFRACT ME IF YOU DARE @Aerodrome

Nice stuff. Would've been more useful if it was for the Wii U version though since it is the competitive standard and has smaller blastzones.

Trying to remember but I don't think I had the Wii U version when made the thread. Otherwise I would have.

Updating with kill percents for the newcomers!


FThrow 211%
BThrow 190%
UThrow 155%
DThrow 345%


FThrow 592%
BThrow 567%
UThrow 185%
DThrow 397%


FThrow 374%
BThrow 298%
UThrow 208%
DThrow 200%

Wow, Lucas has some extremely strong throws and a useful combo DThrow to top it off. Roy's are fairly weal but he can kill with his UThrow like the Marth clone he is. And Ryu's throws are nothing real special outside of his DThrow.

 

[Dogmaster]

Could you test the new charizard upthrow? People are saying it is godly now

 

[Kofu]

Could you test the new charizard upthrow? People are saying it is godly now

Ask and you shall receive! Though I was planning on testing it and others soon anyway.


UThrow 225 -> 133
DThrow 179 -> 386


DThrow 249 -> 277


Cargo FThrow 319 -> 262
Cargo BThrow 338 -> 216
Cargo UThrow 445 -> 329
Cargo DThrow 647 -> 293


UThrow 321 -> 324
DThrow 361 -> 267


DThrow 321 -> 390

These are the changes that have been noted so far for 1.0.8. Biggest winners as far as KO power are Charizard (holy moly) and kind of DK's cargo throws. Diddy's UThrow change is odd and I'm not sure if it was just from the damage alteration, a knockback change, some combination of the two, or me messing up before. It's right now, anyway.