Thoughts on Zelda's Matchups

Alacion

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#1
Seeing as how every other character board has one I think it's about time we had one.

So here's Zelda's Matchups according to the official chart:

:zelda:
-4: :metaknight: :olimar:
-3: :falco: :gw: :popo: :marth: :snake: :zerosuitsamus:
-2: :dedede: :diddy: :dk2: :fox: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :samus2: :sonic: :toonlink: :wario: :wolf:
-1: :ike: :link2: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :rob: :sheik: :sheilda: :yoshi2:
0: :falcon: :jigglypuff:
1: :bowser2:
2: :ganondorf:


Here's my take on it (ordered as well). My friend showed DM this and apparently he agrees with most of the chart. He also mentioned in one of his videos that Ganon is even with Zelda which I agree with and you can't get any easier than Ganon so...

Hard -> Easy for each row.

:zelda:
-4: :metaknight::olimar::falco::snake::gw::popo:
-3: :marth::zerosuitsamus::pikachu2::peach::wolf::fox::toonlink:
-2::diddy::wario::kirby2::dedede::pit::lucario: :sonic::pt::lucas: :ike::sheilda::sheik::dk2::link2::samus2::rob:
-1: :jigglypuff::luigi2::yoshi2::ness2::mario2: :falcon:
0: :bowser2::ganondorf:


What do you think guys? Make your own MU charts as well and let's discuss!


Also, this is why ROB is -1. http://youtu.be/1ZKKAizYkJc?t=5m5s
 

RaqTasmeneth

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#2
I noticed you are significantly rougher on our princess than the original. I would post up a list but...well I'll get to that later.

On paper, both charts that you posted are fairly similar with non-radical placement differences. I have to blow a few of these out of proportion.

Gdorf's shift.
Jigg's shift.
Snake's shift.
Falco's shift.
Peach's shift.
Why is mario -1 and not 0?
Why is Pit -2 and not -3?
Weegee is on the level of yoshi and jiggs?

I feel like I must debate these...
 

Mocha

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#3
Falco and Snake (especially Snake) are not -4. To say they are as bad for her as MK, Olimar, and ICs is a bit of a stretch. Yes they have some very nasty options to shut her down, but they aren't impossible to deal with. If anything I see them as -3.

Don't agree about Pikachu (-2 imo). Not sure about Wolf or Fox though, so I won't really hold these out.

I could possibly understand Bowser (though I still think we have a slight advantage), but Ganon? DLA showed me that you don't do dumb approaches or lag in your moves, otherwise you get punished, and Ganon punishes hard. I feel like he's an Ike without a sword and jab. If you're playing this MU carefully, it should be in our favor. It's also one of the few MUs where Din's is actually viable.

---

Some other placings in the list seemed a bit off, but I didn't really bring those out due to lack of enough experience in those matchups. I'm fairly confident in the ones I did point out though. Then again, this is just my opinion. Maybe for most Zeldas, matchups are worse for her than they actually are. Or maybe I haven't been wrecked bad enough yet by some of these characters to prove me wrong.
 

Fuujin

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#4
If you're playing this MU carefully, it should be in our favor. It's also one of the few MUs where Din's is actually viable.


Falco and Snake (especially Snake) are not -4. To say they are as bad for her as MK, Olimar, and ICs is a bit of a stretch. Yes they have some very nasty options to shut her down, but they aren't impossible to deal with. If anything I see them as -3.
Lol have you played a good Snake other than Diska?
Snake is harder than ICs imo, Zelda's like the 4th easiest character to kill with u tilt for some reason.
I agree with Falco though, I MMd Arty again @ apex and didn't get absolutely destroyed by jab this time.

DLA showed me that you don't do dumb approaches or lag in your moves, otherwise you get punished, and Ganon punishes hard.
All Zelda has are "dumb approaches" lol.
It's either don't approach, or get punished and realisticaly Zelda isn't going to be able to constantly force the approach unless Ganon doesn't know that U air > Din's Fire.

soooo because the ROB failed to edge hog Zelda like 3 times in a row and take her stock it's -1?

Edit: If DM thinks Ganon is even why is it still +2 on the chart?
 

Mocha

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#5
I've also played Havok, and a couple of locals. And Razer's here too but I have yet to play him.

Din's Ganon, what's he going to do? Dash attack can beat Din's. Bait it, pivot grab/f-smash. Side b? Again, bait it, pivot grab/f-smash. You're not going to be using Din's when he gets too close anyway. A lot of his moves are laggy enough to punish out of shield - back air out of shield (and he's not hard to lightning kick).

Snake is not harder than ICs. Snake has weaknesses too, mostly in the air where he's prone to being juggled - and a predictable recovery (which Snakes can alternate between reverse nades). At least with Snake you're not stuck using f-smash, Din's Fire, and running away. At least Snake can't infinite you from 0 to death.
 

Alacion

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Alacion
#6
soooo because the ROB failed to edge hog Zelda like 3 times in a row and take her stock it's -1?

Edit: If DM thinks Ganon is even why is it still +2 on the chart?
Not talking about the gameplay but rather the comment that it's the ROB boards that think the matchup is in Zelda's favour. As for Ganondorf I have no idea.


To reply the others...

Ganondorf: There's a former top 5 Ganondorf in my area, not at the level of DLA but still he is freaking scary. Those reads and Zelda is like a piece of fragile glass.

Jigglypuff: Once you lose the % lead, it's all over. The current stage list favours puff over Zelda (Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise).

Snake: He deals damage like crazy. So many options to kill Zelda with and we are left playing predictably in fear. Once Zelda is at 100%, we're already at KO range.

Falco: Personal bias I think he's harder than Snake >_>

Peach: I'll let these words speak for me.
I honestly feel like Peach could be one of Zelda's worst matchups at a -3 or even -4.
Mario: Those fireballs. Also Mario outspaces Zelda in the air and has no ground options against a campy Mario. Cape can mess up Zelda's recovery and that water move can make it hard for Zelda to recover. It also can gimp you if you get it at the edge while using Din's. Making it sound like -2 but I don't think the MU is that bad.

Pit: I have a mental block against Pit. I'm being a bit optimistic here. I can definitely see him as a -3.

Luigi: No MU experience with him whatsoever, sorry.

Pikachu: I find him one of the most challenging characters to play against but that may be attributed to character skill. Most Pikachus think the MU is -3.

Edit: We should all post our own chart and come to some kind of consensus.
 

DLA

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#7
I agree that Zelda vs. Ganon is even. It would be in Ganon's favor if he wasn't so tall and easy to hit with lightning kick.
 

Fuujin

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#8
Din's Ganon, what's he going to do? Dash attack can beat Din's. Bait it, pivot grab/f-smash. Side b? Again, bait it, pivot grab/f-smash.
Up Air Mocha.
Comes out 6 frames, last long enough to be used without strict timing, and leaves him in a nuetral position afterwards.
What Ganon are you playing thats trying to Dash Attack and Side B through Din's Fire? :confused:

Anyways,

-4 :metaknight: :olimar: :snake: :gw:
-3 :toonlink: :marth: :lucario: :wolf: :falco: :fox: :zerosuitsamus: :peach: :popo:
-2 :dedede: :diddy: :sonic: :pit: :kirby2: :rob: :luigi2: :pikachu2: :dk2: :samus2: :lucas: :wario: :ike: :pt: :sheik:
-1 :falcon: :ness2: :mario2: :link2:
0 :bowser2: :yoshi2: :jigglypuff: :ganondorf:

The only ones I'm not really sure about are Bowser, Jigglypuff, Yoshi and maybe Ness.

:bowser2: and :jigglypuff: I haven't played a good Bowser or Jigglypuff but since Riot lost to Puffster and apparently they weren't that close I think that could be a -1.

:yoshi2: Yoshi could be -1 as well, I've only played Hades and the main reason I beat him was because he didn't know the MU too well.

:ness2: Only good Ness I've played was smash 64 and Yink, and neither of them seem too active, that one might be -2.
 

Alacion

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#9
I agree that Zelda vs. Ganon is even. It would be in Ganon's favor if he wasn't so tall and easy to hit with lightning kick.
So glad you agree.

As for Bowser I think it's even. Bowser's OoS option really gives Zelda a hard time and kills Zelda early. Even with kicks Bowser lives for sooo long. Strangely he's also faster than Zelda? >_>

Puff... definitely a -1. Her biggest advantage are the possible stage options (many of which favour her playstyle), air speed, and jumps. Once we lose the % lead by a decent margin Puff will have absolutely NO problem timing us out. This is how Dapuffster was able to beat Riot. Doesn't matter how skilled you are you won't be able to reach Jigglypuff especially once they know how to cancel Din's. Have you tried playing Puff at Rainbow Cruise (inb4whyareyouatRC)? You might as well just suicide your stocks immediately.

Yoshi... got a player in my region that's pretty much at Hades's level except he has a TON of Zelda MU experience. Yoshi is no way at the level of Bowser and Ganon. Zelda's approaches/landing options are always risky due to Yoshi's excellent grab options and egg game. I firmly think it's -1, and leans more towards -2 than 0.

Ness... only have MU experience from Wifi against one of Hawaii's best players (and I rarely play Wifi) I just don't feel like Ness is *that* bad but I have no qualms about having him at -2.
 

Fuujin

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#10
So glad you agree.

Puff... definitely a -1. Her biggest advantage are the possible stage options (many of which favour her playstyle), air speed, and jumps. Once we lose the % lead by a decent margin Puff will have absolutely NO problem timing us out. This is how Dapuffster was able to beat Riot. Doesn't matter how skilled you are you won't be able to reach Jigglypuff especially once they know how to cancel Din's. Have you tried playing Puff at Rainbow Cruise (inb4whyareyouatRC)? You might as well just suicide your stocks immediately.
Not to mention with the current stagelist she has Brinstar :urg:.
Then when those two aren't available she has Delfino and Halberd (the aerial part at least).
I feel like Zelda suffers from the same thing as CF in this MU.
On some stages it may be closer to even, or a little bit better for Zelda but when it comes to CPs Falcon and Jigglypuff both have like 2 or 3 stages where they have the solid advantage.
I wasn't aware Riot got timed out though.
Ness... only have MU experience from Wifi against one of Hawaii's best players (and I rarely play Wifi) I just don't feel like Ness is *that* bad but I have no qualms about having him at -2.
Yeah something tells me a defensive Ness that is smart would give Zelda trouble.
Dat airspeed and F air.
 

KuroganeHammer

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#11
Here's my thoughts:

:gw:
WE NEED TO GET OVER THE AGE LONG 2008 STEREOTYPE THAT G&W WRECKS LOW TIERS. He does beat them, but there's no way in hell it's a -4. If it's a -4 match up, heaven forbid Zelda should have a lot more of em since realistically it's not worse than either Peach or Wolf.

:falco:
Harder than Snake. I mean, almost everything he does is safe on shield. While he can't kill us until 130% (as opposed to Snake's 100%), Falco has a MUCH better projectile and a much better approach and much better defensive options than Snake does vs Zelda. Falco puts so much shield pressure on Zelda when shooting lasers, it's not funny, then as soon as you get near him, he zips to the other side with side B (which has intangibility frames on it btw). Have fun!

:snake:
I feel this is a -3 mu. It's funny, but people are finally beginning to realise that grenades suck. lol
Honestly, if you're smart with what you're doing, you'll be able to avoid the grenades by air camping. We still have to approach, but it's not total hell like vs. Falco since grenades don't deal hitstun when they hit you, while a shffl, if it catches you in the air, stops you completely and deals 6% damage lol.

They're the ones I feel most strongly on.

Marth is ehhh, I feel he could be -4 for us too. We legitimately have no way to beat him if he just retreats everything.
 

Fuujin

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#12
Here's my thoughts:

:gw:
WE NEED TO GET OVER THE AGE LONG 2008 STEREOTYPE THAT G&W WRECKS LOW TIERS.

Idk this coiuld be true, I haven't played a good GnW in a while, but I just remember him being terrible in the past.
What options does Zelda have against his back air if he spaces it correctly?
Plus they gave him a +4 on Jigglypuff, I don't see how Zelda does any better on him than she does.
:falco:
Harder than Snake. I mean, almost everything he does is safe on shield. While he can't kill us until 130% (as opposed to Snake's 100%), Falco has a MUCH better projectile and a much better approach and much better defensive options than Snake does vs Zelda. Falco puts so much shield pressure on Zelda when shooting lasers, it's not funny, then as soon as you get near him, he zips to the other side with side B (which has intangibility frames on it btw). Have fun!
I don't really agree.
Falco is really nasty with his jab game but I don't see how it's worse than Snake.
Being killed at like 99-100 by Snake is really ridiculous, characters that are lighter than Zelda are able to live longer than her.
I wish I would have recorded my MM with Arty, that's like my favorite high tier match up.
 

KuroganeHammer

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#13
What options does Zelda have against his back air if he spaces it correctly?
Not really any unless you ISSDI (this applies to half the cast though), but G&W players don't spam back air anymore anyway.

Also SDI beats it. It's basically our f-smash in the air. looool

I don't really agree.
Falco is really nasty with his jab game but I don't see how it's worse than Snake.
Being killed at like 99-100 by Snake is really ridiculous, characters that are lighter than Zelda are able to live longer than her.
I wish I would have recorded my MM with Arty, that's like my favorite high tier match up.
This is fair enough, but Ike kills us even earlier.

You seem to be basing the MU only on Snake's kill power and not every other bad trait he has, such as (very) exploitable air game, horrid recovery, bad projectile (I consider it a bad projectile, since it's similar to Din's. Extremely predictable. In fact, when I use Snake now days, I usually pick the projectile up and approach with an air dodge, that's how stupidly predictable it is looooooool).

The only things he has over Falco is range (but only on ftilt and utilt), power (though Falco doesn't need it because of a superior camp game) and survivability (Thankfully Snake is ezy mode to Lightning Kick, same can't be said for Falco). Everything else Falco does better. :c

Everything. :c
 
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