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Thoughts on Olimars development

Myran

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Hey all it's been awhile since I made a post.

What I was wondering with some other post on here is your genuine thoughts on Olimars development, playstyle, and future. Do you think he's destined to fail, or that he has a viable future? In the same note what playstyles do you like?

I'll post my thoughts after some others do I wanna see what you all have to say!

P.S. I'm prepared for the he sucks post lol.
 

MrHakuchu

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Phew. Hard question. For myself, I sit between two seats. One seat says that Olimar will have a pretty cool future, but the other one says, that he will fall in the tiers because of his Pikmin Design. I can see Olimar doing well but on the other hand, the lack of priority and Move that can fail completly for no reason at all, makes it hard for me to believe that Olimar will be viable in the future. I hope this post makes sense.
 

Myran

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Phew. Hard question. For myself, I sit between two seats. One seat says that Olimar will have a pretty cool future, but the other one says, that he will fall in the tiers because of his Pikmin Design. I can see Olimar doing well but on the other hand, the lack of priority and Move that can fail completly for no reason at all, makes it hard for me to believe that Olimar will be viable in the future. I hope this post makes sense.
I understand what you mean. Touching down on desyncs and lack of priority is something I really wanna try to dissect for a lot of players. They can be issues yes, but forming a coherent playstyle around those flaws is important. It's similar to what you'd do with the flaws os other characters.
 
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koken

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I think, in the very long run, he's not viable just because how demanding the character is. I can tell you this because since I picked up Sheik to train against this specific mu, the game took a totally different angle to me.

I like the way you play Myran, it's something I try to copy. It's like a goal for me to achieve.

Olimar needs a secondary for relief, because playing with him is exhausting and once you get a little bit tired, you start to make silly mistakes. It happens to me when I'm getting closer to the top 8, some weird decision appears and my mistakes are more often notorious, even when I'm obviously not trying to do so. I may just speak for myself at this matter but its something very frustrating.

As an example, Shiek can edge guard us for ages and we don't have a very effective way to land on the stage safely.

On the other hand, Olimar seems very solid when you can seek and abuse of 1 or 2 purples. Right now I think 3 purples are a waste of 1 pikmin, but I may be very wrong about this.
The bad thing about that line is that you gain huge knockback at the cost of distance and coverage.

After you have your enemy over 100% is difficult to find the way to take the stock if isn't taking advantage of your opponent mistakes. At least that is something I have been struggling with lately. Wrack up damage very "easily" but due of lack of kill confirm, your enemy can close the gap of the lead and with a little to none knowledge about Olimar, they all play differently if you have a blue pikmin in line.

Also some top players I had fight, they tend to perfect shield the pikmin latched on hit and use the extended hitbox on their advantage, it's pretty awesome by the way :(.

I love the character and I have spent so many hours on developing my skills with him, but when I play Sheik there is a truly feeling that I need the 30% (approx) of my abilities to succeed instead of all my effort to do it with Olimar (at high level, obviously). As I said before, it's a burden to always worry if the Pikmin are there for me to be able to use them.

Also I have been testing my theory about 2 pikmins are better than 3 in line, because of the desync issue, but I need more research to have a final conclusion. It has a trend that I haven't lost due to pikmin not showing at the right moment so ... maybe I'm close to finish my theory.
 

Blue Banana

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I haven't played a lot in roughly two months, just as a note. I look through the Skype chat occasionally and know enough to know what's happening in the overall meta lately.

If there's one thing that will hamper Olimar in the metagame and his overall development, it's going to be his character design.

As a character, Olimar seems to be designed around building up damage quickly with residual damage via PIkmin Throw and solid strings/combos at low to mid percents. In most cases, a good string with a few ticks from side b can result in roughly 30-40% dealt; optimally played, a good string on top of white side-B can result in a good 70-80% damage starting from low percents. Dsmash can do 20+% if both Pikmin hit; not a lot of single attacks can do that much damage aside from some fully charged specials and some smash attacks. Fsmash/Usmash from a red or purple can KO around 90-120%, and if that doesn't work, then the player can wait to build up enough damage for blue Uthrow to kill around 150% as a last resort. Purple side-b is a solid projectile; it works well with Fsmash in zoning out the opponent and acts as an essential tool in regaining ground when you're offstage. His grab range with whites is good, and having a pivot grab with little recovery compared to most tether grabs grants him a useful tool in combating approaches as well as a setup into his combos.

There are a lot of flaws with Olimar's character design:
- Lack of good frame data. Olimar's fastest move is his jab, at frame 4. A lot of popular competitive characters have sub-frame 3 jabs and/or frame 3 nairs.
- Pikmin ignoring the typical rule of attacks interacting with each other. In short, this makes Olimar's smashes and aerials lose in trades with generally a lot of attacks, but at least this also helps in combating some characters' projectiles and might save Olimar from getting KO'd from some attacks (like Cloud and Toon Link's multi-hit Fsmashes). The few attacks that Olimar does by himself have his hurbox close to it that any disjointed hitbox will win against him, aside from maybe Ftilt and Dtilt.
- Lack of mobility. Olimar has both below average ground mobility and below average air mobility, so it can be a chore for the Olimar player if he (feels like he) is forced to chase down the opponent.
- The majority of Olimar's great moves are ground-based, so the opponent can avoid most of them by staying in the air for a lot of the time.
- Pikmin mechanics. Pikmin can fall out of your line when you're in the air, and whistle may not call them back. Because of the fact that the hitbox is not active until frame 10, there's a blind spot in Olimar's standing/dash grab due to the Pikmin moving a bit forward. Pikmin used in Fsmash still go through the "getting up" animation on top of going back to your line, either by foot or by whistle, so there is a bit of commitment in Fsmash that may prevent it from using it too much. This flaw is special compared to the others in that some parts of this problem might be because of how the Pikmin was programmed, where no other character in the game has this sort of problem. Side-b can activate Bayonetta's Witch Time, but this is less of an actual problem since I don't think Olimar shouldn't approach her anyway.
- Recovery on Usmash and all grabs but pivot mean that you are committed to using them. This is important for the grabs because they're a central part for the strings that Olimar can do.

These flaws make up the main problems that the Olimar player can face in a match:
- Once the opponent breaks through the zoning, Olimar has very little options in what he can do, forcing a "can you outsmart your opponent" situation. A lot of popular close-range characters have the mobility and frame data to quickly get to Olimar with ease. Characters with long-lasting nairs (Mario, Yoshi, Fox, etc.) or nairs with large hitboxes (a lot of sword people) can stuff through Fsmash/purples and just put Olimar into a combo. Characters with great initial dashes (Luigi, Falcon) can just powershield through Fsmash and just grab Olimar.
- If the opponent has the percent/stock lead on Olimar and very solid mobility, then it's very hard for Olimar to land a hit due to his own mobility, forcing the player to wait for a mistake made by the opponent. If the stage has platforms, then it can become very aggravating due to circle camping. A lot of characters could theoretically do this, though Shulk and Yoshi stand out due to their great air mobility. Cloud just forces this problem in the matchup due to Limit.
- A sense of unreliability, due to the Pikmin mechanics. Note that, again, no other character in the game suffers from this.
- Once you get your opponent to high percents, how can you end the stock? Olimar has a fair amount of attacks that can KO the opponent, but he doesn't have a generally reliable way of finishing off. Some popular competitve characters have attacks that lead into KOs, and the ones that don't have some other way to make that up, like the ability to go aggressive off-stage.

Although Olimar can do a lot of damage with a lot of effort from the player, it also takes a lot of effort to mitigate the problems that Olimar has. The player may not be able to do anything about how Pikmin behave due to how they're programmed in the game. This means that the amount of effort can really build up to the point that the reward of excellent damage output and not much else doesn't seem worth it for a competitive player. Because of this, less people will play the character, which leads to 1) less matchup experience for the overall player base and 2) less overall development for the character.

(1) can help the Olimar players in the first few years of the game, assuming it lasts long enough, but as time goes on, the players will have to keep developing the character for all he's worth because the surprise factor goes away, which is why (2) is a bad result of the amount of people playing Olimar due to the sense of lack of competitive reward for the character.

The only way I can see Olimar keeping somewhat competitive is desync smashes, but I can't see that being a game-changer for his overall development. The first problem of desyncs as a unique tech for Olimar is that it doesn't seem to be consistent or reliable. From the looks of things, you have to start up a smash and get the opponent to hit the Pikmin in the few frames before Olimar can charge up his smash (where he glows yellow). That should put it on the same difficulty of catching an opponent in the 2-frame ledge vulnerability, but my main question is how often can a Olimar player get situations where he can use a desync smash. A lot of situations I've seen and experienced where this happened just lead me to believe that it just coincidentally happened that the opponent hit the Pikmin right when the player started up the smash attack, and not the player making it intentionally happen. And even if it gets to the point where desync smashes are reliable, it just puts an extra amount of effort on the Olimar player to do and still doesn't solve the other flaws in his character design that make him hard to thrive in the current competitive environment.

On top of this, the behavior of desync smashes hasn't been fully understood yet by not a lot of Olimar players (I think), which leads me to my next point that there isn't any sort of place on the Internet that has a lot of Olimar info recorded. This sub-forum is literally dead as far as I can see, and the Skype group and r/OlimarMains isn't that much better. The player base isn't very large because Olimar isn't very popular in the first place, and the players within that base may not be using the same means of communication (Smashboards, Twitter, Reddit, Skype, etc.) Whatever tech that Olimar has isn't really discussed too much mainly because only a few people know it, it's not very useful in a actual match, or because of what I said above.

I've written and thought about this too much.

EDIT: Forgot to mention how his flaws result in him having a terrible disadvantage state. Due to him losing out on trades with his aerials and his floaty stature, Olimar is very susceptible to juggling and off-stage antics. The only options aside from airdodging or drifting towards the ledge that Olimar has to stop juggling are a 6-frame super armor whistle, nair, a shaky fakeout with UpB, or a very situational B-reverse air pluck. If Olimar doesn't have a purple in line, then it's difficult for him to get back onstage as he doesn't have a fairly quick projectile to cover him.
 
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Myran

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Hmm where to begin on my thoughts about Olimar? First off I'd say he has a place in the meta now, and will continue to be relevant as time continues. That being said I don't disagree with some of the stuff you all said. Olimar does require an immense amount of stamina to maintain the level of play and awareness for tournament, but I don't think that will halt the character's success. I look at this way, if you can keep up the peak level of play for half a tournament what's stopping you from practicing until you can do it for all the tournament? We all know Olimar takes a ton of work, we signed up for it when we played him.

As for some of his design choices it's double-edged sword in full effect. Pikmin may have projectile priority, but with the constant awareness and continued peak play you can work around the flaws well. A good example would be how I used an up air below Lucario using down air to force a clank and lag him giving me enough time to punish a move I normally cannot. Standard desyncs can be annoying, and sometimes can't be helped. However it's on us to play in a way to minimize these situations. Honestly everything's on us. This character will reward you for playing good, and being aware of everything. We have tools for a lot of situations. We got up-b, whistle, wavebounce pluck, air dodge, aerials that can force clank, a multi hit aerial. That's quite a few things to help mitigate being juggled. We have even more tools for when we're being pressured horizontally. I know it isn't easy, and you can't always stop the opponent, but we do have ways to land or get to the ledge.

Is the future of this character in desync smashes and other similar tech? Kinda of. They have their uses, but they aren't the foundation of his meta. You can be aware of scenarios where they can occur, and you can play to increase the chances of this happening. I'm noticing more and more situations where I can setup up a desync, or I'm forcing situations more frequently. Olimar has a lot of tricks that the opponent won't always take into account like we do. Olimar's future to me comes from us upping our consistency in just playing better. This means power shielding, teching, and tightening up general spacing and movement. We also are going to have to constantly be aware of standard Olimar things like Pikmin positioning, and lineup. It's also important to understand how your opponent interprets that information. What I mean by that is understanding how they respond to certain colored pikmin in different situations so you can bait and read the more frequently and accurately.

It's a ton of work for the character that pretty much no other character requires. I for one love playing Olimar, and the sense of perfection that feels required to win. It's exhilarating, and I always try to push myself to better my play. When I lose I don't think Olimar is bad. Instead I think man I made a poor read, or mispaced something, or didn't power shield. Olimar thrives off the players own ability and consistency. Whenever you feel like you can't win, I promise that you can. I've beaten players of characters who some Olimar players say you should pick up a secondary. You can always outplay your opponent, it's just if you're ready to work harder than everyone else.

Also I'm not always the most active anymore, but I am one of the more knowledgeable players in regards to Pikmin mechanics and desyncs. I might not respond immediately, but I'll do my best to explain or answer questions regarding Olimar and Pikmin mechanics.
 
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Mothman

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Hmm where to begin on my thoughts about Olimar? First off I'd say he has a place in the meta now, and will continue to be relevant as time continues. That being said I don't disagree with some of the stuff you all said. Olimar does require an immense amount of stamina to maintain the level of play and awareness for tournament, but I don't think that will halt the character's success. I look at this way, if you can keep up the peak level of play for half a tournament what's stopping you from practicing until you can do it for all the tournament? We all know Olimar takes a ton of work, we signed up for it when we played him.

As for some of his design choices it's double-edged sword in full effect. Pikmin may have projectile priority, but with the constant awareness and continued peak play you can work around the flaws well. A good example would be how I used an up air below Lucario using down air to force a clank and lag him giving me enough time to punish a move I normally cannot. Standard desyncs can be annoying, and sometimes can't be helped. However it's on us to play in a way to minimize these situations. Honestly everything's on us. This character will reward you for playing good, and being aware of everything. We have tools for a lot of situations. We got up-b, whistle, wavebounce pluck, air dodge, aerials that can force clank, a multi hit aerial. That's quite a few things to help mitigate being juggled. We have even more tools for when we're being pressured horizontally. I know it isn't easy, and you can't always stop the opponent, but we do have ways to land or get to the ledge.

Is the future of this character in desync smashes and other similar tech? Kinda of. They have their uses, but they aren't the foundation of his meta. You can be aware of scenarios where they can occur, and you can play to increase the chances of this happening. I'm noticing more and more situations where I can setup up a desync, or I'm forcing situations more frequently. Olimar has a lot of tricks that the opponent won't always take into account like we do. Olimar's future to me comes from us upping our consistency in just playing better. This means power shielding, teching, and tightening up general spacing and movement. We also are going to have to constantly be aware of standard Olimar things like Pikmin positioning, and lineup. It's also important to understand how your opponent interprets that information. What I mean by that is understanding how they respond to certain colored pikmin in different situations so you can bait and read the more frequently and accurately.

It's a ton of work for the character that pretty much no other character requires. I for one love playing Olimar, and the sense of perfection that feels required to win. It's exhilarating, and I always try to push myself to better my play. When I lose I don't think Olimar is bad. Instead I think man I made a poor read, or mispaced something, or didn't power shield. Olimar thrives off the players own ability and consistency. Whenever you feel like you can't win, I promise that you can. I've beaten players of characters who some Olimar players say you should pick up a secondary. You can always outplay your opponent, it's just if you're ready to work harder than everyone else.

Also I'm not always the most active anymore, but I am one of the more knowledgeable players in regards to Pikmin mechanics and desyncs. I might not respond immediately, but I'll do my best to explain or answer questions regarding Olimar and Pikmin mechanics.
I totally agree with everything you just said. It really is on us to represent and make sure to play to the best of our ability with Olimar. In the future, I feel Olimar will keep rising, we just have to be the ones to provide the results, as there aren't many Olimar mains around. I know I'm one of the only 2 Olimar mains in my region, and the one with better results, so I usually try my best to try and not mess up the basic stuff like teching and such because my results will probably affect how people look at olimar (at least in my region), either people will come up to you and say "Olimar seems to be a hard MU for so and so" or " so and so beats Olimar", and it really is how people determine match ups, I feel a lot of it is on results. I may not be anywhere near the power rankings for my region, but lately the number of times I've come close to getting a set, or at least a game off people who would 3 stock me when I first started out has been rising lately......And if I do get completely #wrecked, I usually take notice that it's probably something I did, such as not knowing the MU and playing a bad neutral against a certain character, because I know now that I have the ability to take games off people even with Olimar...so yeah I feel the future of olimar rests in our hands, because no matter the tier lists, if a player is really good, theyd be able to win with any character despite disadvantages
 
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koken

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We should definetely force ourself to find new ways and document our progress with the character in order to upgrade the skills with him.

Find new ways, find optimal ways, find optimal punishes, find ways to condition our opponent consistenly, find better management for pikmins, force the line to our will, find things to abuse, we should do a lot of our effort to get the best tools at the right moment, against the right character.

And we need to share this knowledge, that's important.
 
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Angbad

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I think, in the very long run, he's not viable just because how demanding the character is. I can tell you this because since I picked up Sheik to train against this specific mu, the game took a totally different angle to me.

I like the way you play Myran, it's something I try to copy. It's like a goal for me to achieve.

Olimar needs a secondary for relief, because playing with him is exhausting and once you get a little bit tired, you start to make silly mistakes. It happens to me when I'm getting closer to the top 8, some weird decision appears and my mistakes are more often notorious, even when I'm obviously not trying to do so. I may just speak for myself at this matter but its something very frustrating.

As an example, Shiek can edge guard us for ages and we don't have a very effective way to land on the stage safely.

On the other hand, Olimar seems very solid when you can seek and abuse of 1 or 2 purples. Right now I think 3 purples are a waste of 1 pikmin, but I may be very wrong about this.
The bad thing about that line is that you gain huge knockback at the cost of distance and coverage.

After you have your enemy over 100% is difficult to find the way to take the stock if isn't taking advantage of your opponent mistakes. At least that is something I have been struggling with lately. Wrack up damage very "easily" but due of lack of kill confirm, your enemy can close the gap of the lead and with a little to none knowledge about Olimar, they all play differently if you have a blue pikmin in line.

Also some top players I had fight, they tend to perfect shield the pikmin latched on hit and use the extended hitbox on their advantage, it's pretty awesome by the way :(.

I love the character and I have spent so many hours on developing my skills with him, but when I play Sheik there is a truly feeling that I need the 30% (approx) of my abilities to succeed instead of all my effort to do it with Olimar (at high level, obviously). As I said before, it's a burden to always worry if the Pikmin are there for me to be able to use them.

Also I have been testing my theory about 2 pikmins are better than 3 in line, because of the desync issue, but I need more research to have a final conclusion. It has a trend that I haven't lost due to pikmin not showing at the right moment so ... maybe I'm close to finish my theory.
I've been thinking 2 pikmin is better than 3 for awile. haven't worked much on it. just the running fsmash and running jab or running dtilt seems so beneficial.
 

Angbad

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I'm getting back into this game full time. Dunno how much I'll be using Olimar, but he's a solid character with some trash match ups. Honestly if you're not getting results with olimar i'd say pick up a high tier to learn the game better then come back to olimar.
 

koken

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I'm glad to see you back around here Angbad Angbad and I fully understand if you are willing to drop the character, honestly I do. I wish you stay with us for a long time but I understand.

-------------------------

I have been practicing with Sheik and Mario lately I'm having a little bit better results against my nemesis Sheik in my region.

http://challonge.com/MadGearHideout4

At this tourney last saturday, I tried Mario, Sheik, Marth and Olimar. The results with Marth, Mario and Sheik were close to each other, with a small lean to Mario or maybe Marth (My Sheik lacks of fundamentals).

Honestly... I can't figure out how to beat Sheik players with Olimar, just from the initial combo, the Sheik player put on me 60% easily.

So we should really begin to help each other from what I said above.
 

Angbad

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I'm glad to see you back around here Angbad Angbad and I fully understand if you are willing to drop the character, honestly I do. I wish you stay with us for a long time but I understand.

-------------------------

I have been practicing with Sheik and Mario lately I'm having a little bit better results against my nemesis Sheik in my region.

http://challonge.com/MadGearHideout4

At this tourney last saturday, I tried Mario, Sheik, Marth and Olimar. The results with Marth, Mario and Sheik were close to each other, with a small lean to Mario or maybe Marth (My Sheik lacks of fundamentals).

Honestly... I can't figure out how to beat Sheik players with Olimar, just from the initial combo, the Sheik player put on me 60% easily.

So we should really begin to help each other from what I said above.
Sheik Olimar is really really easy until you play a top level sheik who doesn't let you off of ledge until you're dead lol.
 

Freezie KO

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Dabuz did a tier list breakdown today on his stream and listed mobility as the biggest factor that contributes to being a top tier. I thought that's worth mentioning in light of whether or not Olimar is viable or not.

Air speed, acceleration, run speed, etc. really do hurt Olimar at every level. Lack of mobility affects his landing options, escapes back to neutral, follow-ups, and the ability not to just get air-camped by certain characters.

On the bright side, when Angbad got his super impressive 33rd at EVO, he only lost to one player: Marss. And the ZSS match-up, in theory, should be winnable. Also, we saw a Villager, a MegaMan, and a Pit in Top 12 at EVO, so maybe heavily investing in a single character can overcome MUs more than we think. Kamemushi beat both Mr. R and VoiD, despite Sheik being MM's worst MU.

Unfortunately for Olimar, I'm not sure the bad MUs ever get better without mobility. I don't think "play perfectly" is a viable option. Olimar simply doesn't have room for error, especially with the pikmin mechanics and characters that can keep him at the ledge off of one disadvantage.

I think there are reasons both to be optimistic as a character specialist, but also reasons to be pessimistic given certain inherent statistical data that Olimar has. And yeah, I totally waited until EVO was over to reply to this thread.
 
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koken

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Yeah, you have quite a point on that, but those characters weaknesses are very different than Olimar. They are not floaty, they HAVE options to come back to the stage (except for Pit whose Up B it's harmless like our) and they don't have the possibility to miss a smash or a fair, actually they will never "fail" an Aerial or Smash just because there wasn't a Pikmin. At the worst option they will trade and it will never go through the Smash/Fair due of the pikmin projectile condition.

Playing perfectly is not an option, not at any $%&/$%&" single point of view will make this topic valid, that's IMPOSSIBLE, end of the discussion, pleeeeeaaaaaaaaase, let stop using this as an argument. It's not even an option, seriously.

Despite no one has say anything about the matter, I will share some of my knowledge with you.
If we can force a clank with our enemy, we will always (I'm like 90% sure of this) have the time and condition to run and grab our enemy, because of the distance Fsmash or the clank animation our enemy will suffer.

Another issue I had never read over here is the ledge trump. I believe IT IS an option for us, but only on specific characters or condition. I have been using it and it had work for me on certain scenarios and condition, not really using it like Sheik when they ledge trump and then kill you with a Bair.
The way I use it, is to force my enemy to commit a mistake or simply fall into the second grab of the ledge and punish accordingly.
Usually when I do that I jump immediately and wait for my enemy to get closer to do a Dair, if he's careless, it will be a meteor or taking a stock because of the surprise factor.

Sheik Olimar is really really easy until you play a top level sheik who doesn't let you off of ledge until you're dead lol.
That's one of the many reasons why I stopped playing the MU with Olimar.
 
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Myran

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Olimars worst MUs aren't even set in stone. I've beaten 8bitman, haven't lost to any peaches I've ever played in tourney since January of 2015, and haven't lost to a Yoshi in over a year. I feel often times players call MUs unwinnable or something when they aren't able to figure out a solution. Whistle can punish most aerials when you land with it when timed right. What matchups do you feel make it unlikely to maintain a relevant place in the meta?

I think one of the issues Olimar players in general suffer from is a strong understanding of when to shift from defensive to aggressive or vice versa. Even playing mid range game to easily switch between the two is hard. Almost all matchups can be solved with proper shifting of the gears so to speak since Olimar can go aggro or defensive very well.
 
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Blue Banana

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I've beaten 8bitman
Didn't you beat 8bitman only once in a regional whereas he beat you multiple times across several tournaments? Wouldn't these overall results speak more on the matchup for Olimar?

What matchups do you feel make it unlikely to maintain a relevant place in the meta?
Mario, Fox, Cloud, maybe Sheik? These are very common matchups that an Olimar player has to really focus on if they meet a decent one in bracket. Peach, R.O.B., and Yoshi, maybe Mewtwo are some of the more uncommon ones (a big maybe for m2). Shulk is a rare matchup that can get really annoying if it plays out badly at the start of a game.

I don't think it's just the amount of problematic matchups that Olimar has that makes it hard to keep up in the meta/a tournament. It may be also that, in my opinion, he doesn't have a lot of matchups that are in his advantage; the only semi-relevant one I can think of is Duck Hunt, maybe Villager but only a slight advantage. Olimar has a lot of matchups where it's either even (Mega Man, Diddy, Ness, Pikachu, ZSS) or annoying but could arguably be even (the Pits, Luigi, heavies w/ a KO throw combo, Toon Link, some swordies). The amount of even or so matchups that Olimar has means that the player needs to put up a decent amount of effort for all of these which, on top of dealing with the popular bad matchups, can drain a lot of energy from the player as he goes deeper into bracket. That is why I think it's hard for Olimar to stay relevant in the metagame.

I think one of the issues Olimar players in general suffer from is a strong understanding of when to shift from defensive to aggressive or vice versa. Even playing mid range game to easily switch between the two is hard. Almost all matchups can be solved with proper shifting of the gears so to speak since Olimar can go aggro or defensive very well.
How can the player play aggressively with Olimar? I know that if the player wants to be defensive/passive, he wants to establish a controlled space in neutral with Fsmash and purple side-B, punish any approach with grabs or attacks that lead into strings (jab, dtilt), and avoid playing footsies as much as possible. If the player wants to be aggressive, does he want to reduce the amount of space the opponent has with Fsmash/purple side-B? Olimar can approach after throwing a purple, but then what? He doesn't have any safe grounded pokes, and his smashes and grabs are too unsafe to throw out liberally at close range.
 

Myran

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I've beaten 8bitman more than that one time. There was just a period of time in the middle where he gave me trouble.

Playing aggro with Olimar usually requires 2 purples and allows you to pressure their shield while taking stage control. Working your way forward on them and using moves like Bair and fsmash to apply safe pressure. Then getting a decent read on their timings for shielding so once you are pressuring with purple side b you can understand when they'll drop shield allowing you to either hit them with jab or dtilt more consistently. Also punishing their short hop attempts with nair of your own is a nice way to snub a lot of actions.
 

EternalFlare

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I've beaten 8bitman more than that one time. There was just a period of time in the middle where he gave me trouble.

Playing aggro with Olimar usually requires 2 purples and allows you to pressure their shield while taking stage control. Working your way forward on them and using moves like Bair and fsmash to apply safe pressure. Then getting a decent read on their timings for shielding so once you are pressuring with purple side b you can understand when they'll drop shield allowing you to either hit them with jab or dtilt more consistently. Also punishing their short hop attempts with nair of your own is a nice way to snub a lot of actions.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Isn't a well spaced rising SH fair also safe as a poke? I don't believe most characters can punish it OOS.

Also what desync tricks are you referring to with Olimar? I understand it means you'll have pikmin on stage that you aren't currently controlling. But how is that useful?

I'm new with the character and trying to learn as much as I can.
 
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Myran

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I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

Isn't a well spaced rising SH fair also safe as a poke? I don't believe most characters can punish it OOS.

Also what desync tricks are you referring to with Olimar? I understand it means you'll have pikmin on stage that you aren't currently controlling. But how is that useful?

I'm new with the character and trying to learn as much as I can.
Yeah I'm pretty sure fair is safe when spaced right on shield.

As for desyncs I mean desync smashes where I'm timing my hits to there's so my pikmin will desync during the Smash and soak their hitbox and hit them without clanking. It's a bit of a strict timing but it's a viable option that we should all be striving to implement more. I think there may be a more in depth explanation somewhere on the Olimar board. If you can't find one lemme know and I'll explain it in depth here.
 

EternalFlare

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Thanks. I'll see if I can find any desync guides, it sounds interesting.

Also one more question. How do you guys farm Purple/Red/Blue Pikmin on the fly so fast in the middle of a match?

Even with the marker I have trouble knowing which Pikmin is next as fast as I'd like (playing on a tiny 2DS screen doesn't help :/) and down B to order Pikmin seems inconsistent (sometimes it takes 1 to get the last one in the queue, other times it takes 2). Is there some trick I'm missing?

For instance, if I just plucked a purple and want it in the front, what's the best/fastest way to achieve this?
 
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Myran

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It's really just knowing when you pluck certain colors and throwing/using them before hand or as you're getting good to you color. Play in a way where each pikmin works towards the next so you always have what you want when you need it.
 

Ridel

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Honestly, I feel like Olimar is going to be in limbo for a very very long time. Most people put him somewhere in the middle of their tier list just because that is what is excepted with no other thoughts put in. This mainly happens because people just don't give a rats ass about Olimar overall. Just a few weeks ago some Japanese Olimar placed really high (top 3) out placing the likes of Abadango and Kamimushi but even when it was brought to attention no one cared. Even lower tierd characters are brought up more because when they win it's very unexpected and makes peoples heads turn. It's gotten to the point where people don't even question when Dabuz brings out Olimar despite most people knowing little to nothing about him. Olimar just being this very unpopular thought to be middle of the road character puts him in the back of people's minds. Pit is in a similar situation but not at the hyper extreme of Olimar.

In terms of playstyle there is a good amount of room for development but Olimar being a very BnB based character makes it hard to break the mold of playing a bit unorthodox and even then you really don't get a lot out of it compared to other characters. As of right now Olimar's biggest thing holding him back is his god damn reliability. Pikmin AI is what really screws up this character big time and just makes managing Pikmin more of a chore. As an Olimar main in PM as well I must say it just blows my mind how bad the Pikmin AI is in this game. Using your Pikmin effectively should feel gratifying and fell good, but sometimes the way they act is completely out of your control and it makes you worry less about your opponent and more of "is X Pikmin going to work at X time". This combined with his straight forward playstyle makes him boring to play for most players (this also contributes to players not caring about him as well). Also, the lack of having a good mix-up game makes Olimar one of the easiest MU to learn overall and makes him more of an annoyance than an actual threat to most people. On the contrary, this doesn't mean Olimar sucks, he is absolutely a solid character but I one that cannot be solo mained. Olimar is at his most threatening when paired with a second main or pocket as you clutch out games before you give your opponent time to adapt, in short terms his a great wild card to throw out in the middle of a set to nab an unexpected win.

I really want the best for Olimar but he just doesn't seem like he'll achieve success and recognition no matter what you do because the community doesn't seem to want to change their opinion of him.
 

Freezie KO

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Honestly, I feel like Olimar is going to be in limbo for a very very long time. Most people put him somewhere in the middle of their tier list just because that is what is excepted with no other thoughts put in. This mainly happens because people just don't give a rats *** about Olimar overall. Just a few weeks ago some Japanese Olimar placed really high (top 3) out placing the likes of Abadango and Kamimushi but even when it was brought to attention no one cared. Even lower tierd characters are brought up more because when they win it's very unexpected and makes peoples heads turn. It's gotten to the point where people don't even question when Dabuz brings out Olimar despite most people knowing little to nothing about him. Olimar just being this very unpopular thought to be middle of the road character puts him in the back of people's minds. Pit is in a similar situation but not at the hyper extreme of Olimar.

In terms of playstyle there is a good amount of room for development but Olimar being a very BnB based character makes it hard to break the mold of playing a bit unorthodox and even then you really don't get a lot out of it compared to other characters. As of right now Olimar's biggest thing holding him back is his god damn reliability. Pikmin AI is what really screws up this character big time and just makes managing Pikmin more of a chore. As an Olimar main in PM as well I must say it just blows my mind how bad the Pikmin AI is in this game. Using your Pikmin effectively should feel gratifying and fell good, but sometimes the way they act is completely out of your control and it makes you worry less about your opponent and more of "is X Pikmin going to work at X time". This combined with his straight forward playstyle makes him boring to play for most players (this also contributes to players not caring about him as well). Also, the lack of having a good mix-up game makes Olimar one of the easiest MU to learn overall and makes him more of an annoyance than an actual threat to most people. On the contrary, this doesn't mean Olimar sucks, he is absolutely a solid character but I one that cannot be solo mained. Olimar is at his most threatening when paired with a second main or pocket as you clutch out games before you give your opponent time to adapt, in short terms his a great wild card to throw out in the middle of a set to nab an unexpected win.

I really want the best for Olimar but he just doesn't seem like he'll achieve success and recognition no matter what you do because the community doesn't seem to want to change their opinion of him.
I think you're dealing with two important issues here, but you're sorta conflating them as one thing.

1. What is the perception of Olimar in the meta?
and
2. Does Olimar have the tools to advance in the meta? (i.e. "Is Olimar good?")

To the first question, I would say that Shuton getting second only to Komorikiri at that Sumabato tournament was a good start. But (!) that's also Japan. Taiheita has gotten first place (not second) with Lucas. Duck Hunt Dogs regularly place Top 8. And there are other anomalies (such as Abadango's "I don't really care" attitude about Japanese tournaments because they don't have prize pools.)

There are a number of reasons people shrug off weird Japanese results. Ultimately, for perception, Olimar needs to place higher in a US major. Angbad got 33rd at EVO, which was incredible, but that alone isn't going to change perception on the character. Especially when you realize that Robin made Top 32, and nobody is jumping to put Robin super high on their tier list. Even though other majors aren't as stacked, we need to see several placements of Olimar in Top 32s before people even notice him.

I don't think Olimar is necessarily being "left out" of the conversation either.
People aren't suddenly ranking Robin or Lucario or Lucas as upper-high or top tiers just because we've seen them actually break into Top 32 a couple times. Mewtwo rose in recognition after buffs, but most importantly after results. It was only after Abadango took Pound and other players started placing highly that Mewtwo became regarded as a Top 10 or Top 15 character.

To the second question... when I think of Olimar being "bad," I think of exactly what you are saying - Pikmin AI. At the end of the day, the character is broken to some degree. And at the highest level of gameplay, this isn't acceptable. I can't count the number of times only half of my down-smash has worked because a pikmin decides to take a nap. Same with the whistle not working, or the active pikmin arrow simply not switching to the correct pikmin, or pikmin randomly falling off the stage, or pikmin levitating while I'm near a ledge, or an aerial fails to come out when I'm flying in my up-B special. I don't even need to give you links to videos because everyone here knows what I'm talking about.

Random elements, in general, are seen as unreliable in competitive play, and this is a random element that only serves to hurt the character. No other character in the entire game has the random chance of their move failing. And if that wasn't bad enough, Olimar's grab still whiffs at point blank range. Even the grab has a chance to fail (although you can control this better).

Even ignoring the pikmin AI, I still don't believe Olimar would be a top tier. The top tiers are dominated by good recoveries and/or great mobility. When you don't have one, you have the other. Cloud and Fox don't have good recovery, but they have amazing mobility. Sheik and Mewtwo and ZSS have both. Diddy has great mobility with side B tricks and good horizontal recovery. The only real exception is Rosa, but Luma is its own janky mechanic worthy of a whole other topic.

Back to Olimar, his mobility stats are garbage. Poor air mobility, poor air speed, poor run speed, etc. His recovery is good in that it can take you far, but it's very vulnerable. He can't reset to neutral well. His frame data isn't great. Shield grab is unreliable, and a frame 4 jab still requires you to drop shield. And worse, because he loses pikmin in disadvantage, he may even lose parts of his moveset. Sheik can literally keep us at the ledge for minutes at a time.

Could Olimar definitively break into high tier without pikmin AI issues and without the grab whiff? It's possible. His command of neutral and his great combo/advantage state are worthy of a high tier. The pikmin item property is still problematic, but the ability to grab at point-blank range could boost his ability to play more defensively from shield. Then again, he also loses to some other mid-tiers like ROB.

Ultimately, his raw numbers in frame data and mobility aren't great. That means his gimmick (pikmin) has to be amazing enough to shore up his weaknesses. But unlike Luma that acts as a bodyguard and forces people into shield when Rosa is in a disadvantage state, pikmin fall off the stage, fail to work, and sometimes force you to whiff your one good chance at resetting back to a decent place in the match. And as other characters optimize their punishes more, a single missed move can mean 40% or even your stock.
 
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Ridel

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To the first question, I would say that Shuton getting second only to Komorikiri at that Sumabato tournament was a good start. But (!) that's also Japan. Taiheita has gotten first place (not second) with Lucas. Duck Hunt Dogs regularly place Top 8. And there are other anomalies (such as Abadango's "I don't really care" attitude about Japanese tournaments because they don't have prize pools.)

There are a number of reasons people shrug off weird Japanese results. Ultimately, for perception, Olimar needs to place higher in a US major. Angbad got 33rd at EVO, which was incredible, but that alone isn't going to change perception on the character. Especially when you realize that Robin made Top 32, and nobody is jumping to put Robin super high on their tier list. Even though other majors aren't as stacked, we need to see several placements of Olimar in Top 32s before people even notice him.

I don't think Olimar is necessarily being "left out" of the conversation either.
People aren't suddenly ranking Robin or Lucario or Lucas as upper-high or top tiers just because we've seen them actually break into Top 32 a couple times. Mewtwo rose in recognition after buffs, but most importantly after results. It was only after Abadango took Pound and other players started placing highly that Mewtwo became regarded as a Top 10 or Top 15 character.
Yeah I totally neglected the fact that Japan always has strange results; probably should have done more research on it, to be honest. I guess it more or less comes down to playerbase. Lucario, Lucas, and Robin have a lot more dedicated players therefor it appears that they get a lot more discussion thrown their way, though, in reality it's probably proportionate to the playerbase that represents it.
 

Myran

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It's also important to keep in mind that the top American Olimars don't travel that often to huge majors.
 

Freezie KO

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So, of course, in the middle of this discussion, Dabuz goes ahead and uses an extraordinary amount of Olimar at Smash Con. I wonder what the thread's thoughts are on this.

I'm not sure it necessarily changes my own opinion on viability. At the higher MUs in tourney, Dabuz used Oli to beat MegaMan and Captain Falcon, while he quickly shelved Olimar against VoiD's Sheik and lost to Nairo's ZSS. I didn't think Fatality necessarily played the Falcon MU very well either.

However, I did see a lot more comments from Twitch Chat and elsewhere describing Oli as high tier, whereas I would put him at a solid mid-tier. So perception may change. It's difficult to place Olimar though because Dabuz obviously uses his incredible Rosa to cover when he feels Olimar won't do the work.

It's also important to keep in mind that the top American Olimars don't travel that often to huge majors.
Well, I'm not the top Olimar here. That's on you. :p
 

Myran

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I think Dabuz' Olimar has gotten better as of late, but I also think Scatt and Fatality coulda played the MU much better. It felt like often times they weren't watching his lineup to closely so they got hit by the worSt possible pikmin. Ironically he opted for Rosa against Nairo and Void. Two MUs where I feel Olimar can work just fine. I think we beat ZSS and go even with Sheik. I think the reason he switched off is that currently his Olimar either can't handle those kind of fast combo character very well or he just thinks rosa would be much better.
 

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I lean to Myran opinion as well, he may not have enough mu experience against those characters so it would be very careless to do it on a tournament.

I believe many people think Olimar may be middle o sub-middle tier, but just because of the unpopular he is, the gamestyle he has and because of course lack of results on tournament.
It's much easier to categorize popular characters because you see them everywhere and also it's much probably they get top 12 because there are more players using them.
If 16 players on a tourney, 3 of them use ZSS, 3 of them use Sheik, 3 of them use Cloud, 1 of them Olimar, 1 of them Megaman... and so on, it's clearly very possible to get ZSS, Sheik and Cloud to top 5 because of the probability it exists.

I'm starting to love Olimar much more than ever and about the desync... it's a pain in the #$%&%$ but there are some ways we can manage it better.
I strongly believe we have more room to grow up but our progress is slow because of the amount of player who we are.
 
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Dabuz

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I think Dabuz' Olimar has gotten better as of late, but I also think Scatt and Fatality coulda played the MU much better. It felt like often times they weren't watching his lineup to closely so they got hit by the worSt possible pikmin. Ironically he opted for Rosa against Nairo and Void. Two MUs where I feel Olimar can work just fine. I think we beat ZSS and go even with Sheik. I think the reason he switched off is that currently his Olimar either can't handle those kind of fast combo character very well or he just thinks rosa would be much better.
Olimar vs. Sheik is not a matchup I like personally and don't practice, I tried it out g1 since my Oli was much more on point but I def. like the Rosa Sheik matchup more and would honestly claim it's my favorite matchup in the game.
 

DoubleC

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As an Dutch Olimar Co main I agree with everything here.
I got lucario just to switch it up, to have the ability to trade in the air, to not have to think about "damn this is perfect for a Bair but I have a white and it won't kill"

But I enjoy Olimar bot having the need to approach, even when behind. Most people don't have the patience to do nothing, avoiding pikmin for 6/8min. The feeling when you bait and get the kill. That's what keeps me going back to olimar. Would probably drop lucario if pikmin lose there item properties

But as the meta game, at first when I started playing olimar, people didn't knew what was going on. "what are you doing", "you're so small", "pikmin are annoying".
So I won a few things. Nothing big but still. Then they learned the MU. Know that I can do anything in the air. Learned how to use pikmin jank against me. Extending there hitboxes with my pikmin.

Everything we will come up with will be shot down given enough time.

But it doesn't stop me from being a olimar main.
 

Myran

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I disagree with the last part of your statement. Yeah they can beat our pikmin but we can use desyncs and pikmin jank in our favor far more often. They won't be watching for the jank nearly as close as us.
 
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