Meta Those who fight further: The Cloud Meta-Game Discussion/Community Guide

[Emblem Lord]

Truth. It kills anyone in the game at 100% when fresh. Does 27% by itself. (HUGE damage) Pretty safe on shield. Only the fastest chars like Sonic and Little Mac can consistently punish this on block when it's spaced well. It has the Crush property meaning it will overpower other grounded pokes/normal attacks. It can also be used to set-up stage spike situations very well on up bs that only hit one side or have no hitbox.

It is easily one of the best moves in the game.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Truth. It kills anyone in the game at 100% when fresh. Does 27% by itself. (HUGE damage) Pretty safe on shield. Only the fastest chars like Sonic and Little Mac can consistently punish this on block when it's spaced well. It has the Crush property meaning it will overpower other grounded pokes/normal attacks. It can also be used to set-up stage spike situations very well on up bs that only hit one side or have no hitbox.

It is easily one of the best moves in the game.

What is? Uair?

 

[Emblem Lord]

??? You are obviously trolling.

Uair does not do 27%.

 

[DarkDeity15]

??? You are obviously trolling.

Uair does not do 27%.

Oh my bad, didn't catch that.

On the other hand, Cloud seems to have the advantage in neutral against Sheik from what I've seen on the Genesis 3 stream. He just has problems off stage, which is a given. He's probably the closest we'll be getting to a Sheik counter lol. Besides that, Cloud is a demon in teams.

 

[Virum]

Cloud definitely doesn't have the advantage in neutral if simply because Sheik still has slightly superior mobility (than non Limit Cloud), superior frame data and needles, though he at least has the tools to keep up and Cloud will typically get more out of positive exchanges in neutral because of how much harder he hits compared to Sheik. The match-up is likely still in Sheik's favour though not overwhelmingly so.

Offstage is suffering though, Mr.R did a fantastic job showing this vs Komorikiri at Genesis.

 

[Random4811]

Cloud definitely doesn't have the advantage in neutral if simply because Sheik still has slightly superior mobility (than non Limit Cloud), superior frame data and needles, though he at least has the tools to keep up and Cloud will typically get more out of positive exchanges in neutral because of how much harder he hits compared to Sheik. The match-up is likely still in Sheik's favour though not overwhelmingly so.

Offstage is suffering though, Mr.R did a fantastic job showing this vs Komorikiri at Genesis.

Eh I feel like its a pretty even matchup, Cloud has the range to keep Shiek out. komo honestly wasnt that great of a Cloud player. Same problem I feel m2k has with Cloud, they're both pretty basic in their Cloud play and not taking full advantage of what the character can be

 

[Shadestars]

So I think i have a good tip for limit usage, didnt wanna make a new thread about it because it's nothing major so Ill put it here. Also I dont know if this has been brought up before, the threads grown a bit large.

When the enemy is at lower percentage, don't charge it all the way. Just charge it to like, 80-90%-ish. That way, you can still use your specials on neutral to rack up damage without risk of losing your limit. By the time your limit charges itself, your opponent will more likely be at a better percentage to kill with it.

If you need the limit recovery you can easily charge the remaining 10-20% while falling so thats not an issue either, also you have the option of going for the normal recovery, you wont be forced to waste it.

Basically, if the enemy is at low percents, just keep the limit close to full, so that you aren't forced to use it, you can keep it as an option instead. Ive seen a lot of Clouds going full limit while Im still at 0-40%, and often its not worth it. Thoughts?

 

[Virum]

Eh I feel like its a pretty even matchup, Cloud has the range to keep Shiek out. komo honestly wasnt that great of a Cloud player. Same problem I feel m2k has with Cloud, they're both pretty basic in their Cloud play and not taking full advantage of what the character can be

That sort of range isn't really a factor vs Sheik because of her versatility and amazing ability to zone break. This is the prime issue characters like Ike and Shulk have vs Sheik. Their range is fantastic but her overwhelming speed and frame data prevent them from actually being able to wall her out. Granted this is less of a struggle for Cloud since his frame data is generally better but Sheik's FAir is still going to be putting in a lot of work (as it always does). Cloud is also at a perfect combo weight and fall speed for Sheik, so she can punish him effectively too.

I'd agree the match-up would be even considering Cloud's neutral as a whole is very solid, the strength of his attacks, his ability to trap landings and his Limit as a fantastic clutch if it weren't for the fact that Cloud's offstage game is absolutely tragic vs Sheik. If you're generally losing in neutral to Sheik AND you suffer that hard when put offstage the match-up can't possibly be even.

 

[Eureka]

So I think i have a good tip for limit usage, didnt wanna make a new thread about it because it's nothing major so Ill put it here. Also I dont know if this has been brought up before, the threads grown a bit large.

When the enemy is at lower percentage, don't charge it all the way. Just charge it to like, 80-90%-ish. That way, you can still use your specials on neutral to rack up damage without risk of losing your limit. By the time your limit charges itself, your opponent will more likely be at a better percentage to kill with it.

If you need the limit recovery you can easily charge the remaining 10-20% while falling so thats not an issue either, also you have the option of going for the normal recovery, you wont be forced to waste it.

Basically, if the enemy is at low percents, just keep the limit close to full, so that you aren't forced to use it, you can keep it as an option instead. Ive seen a lot of Clouds going full limit while Im still at 0-40%, and often its not worth it. Thoughts?

I think you're spot-on with this. I've seen so many Clouds just charge whenever possible, even if it means taking hits and giving up an advantage in neutral, only for them to limit early to minimal effectiveness. Simply put, having limit can limit Cloud's options. For example, if your opponent crosses you up with an aerial you would normally be able to punish with b-reverse Climhazzard OoS, you wouldn't because it'd be a huge waste of Limit so they'd get away with it. I think there are some exceptions though.

1. You need limit for neutral: Limit Blade Beam is amazing against characters who like to zone Cloud out, as it's basically a free in since it's transcendent and multi-hitting, so even if they block it you can still get through their zone. Also there will probably be more chances to charge limit in these types of matchups as well, since the opponent will be spending time setting up/throwing projectiles, so using limit earlier isn't as big of a deal.
2. You're at really high percents: Like, REALLY high percents. Since limit doesn't transfer between stocks, if you're at a point where Shiek will kill you off a fair or f tilt, it might be better to use something like Limit Cross Slash or Limit Blade Beam solely for the short-term advantage, otherwise you might not get to use it at all.

I think the perfect time to have limit charged is when your opponent will die to Finishing Touch from the ground (for that delicious early kill punish), or when they'll die to dair/uair to Finishing Touch at the absolute earliest. Anything earlier then that really doesn't give Cloud enough of a benefit to warrant losing the utility from his specials.

 

[D. Disciple]

Not sure if this has been covered in here or not.

Decided to experiment with Dtilt more to see which projectiles Cloud can slide under and punish.

It was cool to discover that he clanks and goes under Luma shot, Sheik's needles, ZSS neutral b and he clanks with uncharged to slightly charged water shuriken, Luigi's fireball.

Since I don't have someone nearby to test who has the advantage in the clank battles, can someone help me out with this please to see if he does have the advantage if he clanks with those projectiles or not? I'm still testing to see if he can go under Lucario's aura sphere with and without aura, and other characters but this caught my attention this morning.

 

[RebelXII]

??? You are obviously trolling.

Uair does not do 27%.

All Clouds damge inputs can be found here.

http://smashboards.com/threads/cloud-strifes-hit-percents.426557/#post-20636349

 

[ElectricBlade]

I've been testing Bair on shield. It seems to be positive on Shield drop. I know this is common knowledge but the reason im posting about is because it seems like you'd be able to make alot of shield traps with this. Nair alone can cover roll in, Aerial or jump OOS, shield grab and staying in shield. Should we test further on this? I don;'t have the tools to test to much

(Edit because of double post rules) I just tested and confirmed Specials and LB specials both stale each other, not sure if common knowledge but I'll write it anyway

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Any1 knows how Cloud fares in the Rosalina MU?

 

[Linq]

If this is not known, there are apparently certain situations where you can retain your momentum when doing a cross slash, letting you do things like double jump higher than Falco. I think it functions kind of like love jumping or TL's dair recovery stall, in that it will only work out of hitstun. I have not been able to replicate it, but I can upload a clip of it if need be. Needless to say if this is useful for recovery it would change a lot of matchups.
Edit:maybe it's still the same as normal double jump height, but executing cross slash while moving would still be big

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Cloud can beat luma easy unless he is challenged at the ledge. so no grabs, watch for down tilt, and no random short hops cause upsmash. Side b is best friend. If spaced can knock luma away while being safe. Finishing touch her recovery its pretty easy unless she recovers high when you dont expect it. Dont be afraid to use LB side b. Gets rid of luma the fastest. SO no luma = watch out for grabs, random dash attacks (i said it), dtilt, bair, and dair. Dont go off the stage and be risky AF. Says punish me if you miss or mess up. Other than that its all you.

Side note: Peach v Rosalina is a fun match up. I got tech slayerz doesnt even use lol.

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

l'm wondering who would make a good secondary to Cloud (besides someone with a somewhat better recovery, of course). l feel like he can get rushed down and camped out (yeah, there are players out there who don't give a damn about your charge, it's actually a little scary) a bit. Not by a lot, but enough that l feel like a secondary could be useful. Just curious.

 

[DavemanCozy]

What are good uses for Cloud's other throws besides D-throw?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

What are good uses for Cloud's other throws besides D-throw?

Mixups.

That's about it...

 

[Chief Hotsuin]

What are good uses for Cloud's other throws besides D-throw?

Positioning and juggling. lf you can abuse foxtrotting and read the opponent's get up options, you could chaingrab a lot like Melee Marth (theoretically), minus up-throw chains on spacies and Falcon... Up throw sends directly up, setting up juggles.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I have a series of projects and lab experiments that I will be working on in the coming days and will end up posting my results here. I realize from looking at the available resources and quality of discussion, that we have so so so much work to do. It's exciting.

 

[HFlash]

What are good uses for Cloud's other throws besides D-throw?

Fthrow/dthrow can get people off stage. And personally something that is greatly underrated, using uthrow to get below people. We all should know how good Cloud is below people.

I realize from looking at the available resources and quality of discussion, that we have so so so much work to do.

Amen to that.

Also, something I discovered about the Bayo MU, dtilt is really good here. Even if Bayo does WT on dtilt, the foot of dtilt has a lasting hitbox, and Cloud is low to the ground, making it hard for Bayo to hit us.

 

[_Nives_]

I have a series of projects and lab experiments that I will be working on in the coming days and will end up posting my results here. I realize from looking at the available resources and quality of discussion, that we have so so so much work to do. It's exciting.

Cant wait hope it's dope !

 

[SmashRacer]

Guys, I just discovered DThrow to FT can work if they land on a platform and misses their tech.
Even if they tech they're probably still in a very bad spot.

Edit: Added GfyCat

51% was the exact percentage Link would land on the platform after DThrow. If it was 1% lower he would pass through it

 

[GHNeko]

I have a series of projects and lab experiments that I will be working on in the coming days and will end up posting my results here. I realize from looking at the available resources and quality of discussion, that we have so so so much work to do. It's exciting.

HIt me up fam I love labbing.

 

[Seghammer]

Well, I already apologized so there's no need to treat me like some unholy idiot. If it's bothering you so much I can always just remove that small error.
Also, I said SOME of Cloud's moves not every single one of them. Read before you call me out on something like that, I'm aware Neutral Air is safe on shield for example and a few more.

Even if it isn't a combo, it is still great for mixing things up. Thanks for the tip.

 

[NN7]

What do you guys think of falling Uair? In my opinion, it's not needed to be a good player, but it does have situations where it is very useful, such as extending combos.

 

[GHNeko]

It's...pretty necessary to be a good player.

Falling Uair gets you Uair > FS > AC Dair > FT. Falling Uair also gets you Uair > Utilt and Uair > Uair. You also do falling Uairs to pressure oppnent on platforms and mix it up between rising uairs and utilts. Falling Uair can also be safe on shield.

AND

It's probably your most overall useful option for shielddrops.

See video

While it's not something you NEED to always be doing, it'd be really haphazard to think its not necessary at high levels/to be a good player.

 

[D. Disciple]

Guys, I just discovered DThrow to FT can work if they land on a platform and misses their tech.
Even if they tech they're probably still in a very bad spot.

Edit: Added GfyCat

51% was the exact percentage Link would land on the platform after DThrow. If it was 1% lower he would pass through it

M2K and I discovered that with every character. But because of the DI it's very very very hard to pull off.

 

[DarkDeity15]

After checking out the hitbox visuallisations and testing things out, FT and 2nd hit of LB Cross Slash will hit below the ledge. Both versions of Blade Beam work as well as Dtilt, though that's been known for a while.

*edit: Dash attack also hits below the ledge, it's pretty good at it too.

 

[GHNeko]

After checking out the hitbox visuallisations and testing things out, FT and 2nd hit of LB Cross Slash will hit below the ledge. Both versions of Blade Beam work as well as Dtilt, though that's been known for a while.

Thanks for reminding me.

I was able to clip someone with LCS on the ledge literally yesterday.

FT hitting below the ledge is nasty as **** tho.

 

[_Nives_]

Hey guy did anyone do a list of character were it's safer to play without limit boost ? for example according to me it's better to play wiithout limit status against zss . Because of the up air combo

 

[DarkDeity15]

Below the ledge, Finishing touch will not hit Ganondorf, Zelda, Pit/Dark Pit, Palutena, Roy, Marth, Lucina, Greninja, Corrin, Captain Falcon, Sonic or Diddy. There may be more characters who it doesn't hit, but I can confirm that it hits Bayonetta, Sheik, Zero Suit and Rosalina.

 

[GHNeko]

Hey guy did anyone do a list of character were it's safer to play without limit boost ? for example according to me it's better to play wiithout limit status against zss . Because of the up air combo

There are a few, but going limitless also comes down to how your opponent plays as well.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Hey OP, you should try quoting people instead of just writing stuff down for hours. It saves you loads of time and energy.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

I think you're spot-on with this. I've seen so many Clouds just charge whenever possible, even if it means taking hits and giving up an advantage in neutral, only for them to limit early to minimal effectiveness. Simply put, having limit can limit Cloud's options. For example, if your opponent crosses you up with an aerial you would normally be able to punish with b-reverse Climhazzard OoS, you wouldn't because it'd be a huge waste of Limit so they'd get away with it. I think there are some exceptions though.

1. You need limit for neutral: Limit Blade Beam is amazing against characters who like to zone Cloud out, as it's basically a free in since it's transcendent and multi-hitting, so even if they block it you can still get through their zone. Also there will probably be more chances to charge limit in these types of matchups as well, since the opponent will be spending time setting up/throwing projectiles, so using limit earlier isn't as big of a deal.
2. You're at really high percents: Like, REALLY high percents. Since limit doesn't transfer between stocks, if you're at a point where Shiek will kill you off a fair or f tilt, it might be better to use something like Limit Cross Slash or Limit Blade Beam solely for the short-term advantage, otherwise you might not get to use it at all.

I think the perfect time to have limit charged is when your opponent will die to Finishing Touch from the ground (for that delicious early kill punish), or when they'll die to dair/uair to Finishing Touch at the absolute earliest. Anything earlier then that really doesn't give Cloud enough of a benefit to warrant losing the utility from his specials.

yes thank you

there are two clouds
limit is complex

it depends on
-opponent character
-opponent player
-how you're playing
-stage
-game moment

you have to play it by ear
and you have to use limit to keep advantage
not lose it.
since its so complex, we have to start with our intuition

 

[Kernelcapi]

What are some true limit combos? I've been practicing fast fall uair > full footstool > slightly fast falling dair > to double jump FT. any others I could practice that could be applied to a real match? Thanks.

 

[DarkDeity15]

What are some true limit combos? I've been practicing fast fall uair > full footstool > slightly fast falling dair > to double jump FT. any others I could practice that could be applied to a real match? Thanks.

Autocancel Dair or Uair (preferably the sweetspot) > Full hop Bair > double jump Bair or Nair is true at around 40 to 60% with limit break activated from what I can tell. Not really possible without limit break though for obvious reasons. It may not earn you the kill every time, but it's easy to pull off, will put the opponent in a terrible position offstage and guarantees a ton of damage depending on what moves you use. And yes, I've tried using limit break cross slash and blade beam after the first Bair. No luck so far when it comes to being a true combo.

 

[Disappointed Donger]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I don't see any balanced thread sticked, so I'm gonna complain here.

Does Cloud really need his down-throw to side-B combo? I'm finding it's very difficult to DI out of, and the damage is way too high for how little effort has to be put in. It's almost 30% for 2 attacks, and if he has limit it's over 40% for 2 button inputs, maybe it's just me but that is way too much damage for such an easy grab combo.

 

[Eureka]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I don't see any balanced thread sticked, so I'm gonna complain here.

Does Cloud really need his down-throw to side-B combo? I'm finding it's very difficult to DI out of, and the damage is way too high for how little effort has to be put in. It's almost 30% for 2 attacks, and if he has limit it's over 40% for 2 button inputs, maybe it's just me but that is way too much damage for such an easy grab combo.

It's not a combo at all. Even with no DI heavy or fast falling characters can just land and shield before cross slash comes out and everyone else can just air dodge it or jump out if they DI away. Some characters like Luigi can literally just mash back air and hit Cloud before Cross Slash comes out.

 

[Disappointed Donger]

I was using Captain Falcon against the Cloud (for teh memes) and I wasn't able to. Maybe I'm just bad against Clouds. :/