This KID has become my inspiration (Any nerf ideas?)

[WinterShorts]

For all of you that don't know or haven't watched, Mr. LZ, a thirteen year-old kid who mains G&W, just took Paragon 2015. I was so happy for him to come out of nowhere, take on players like hungrybox, and take over the entire tournament, since I myself play G&W and am considering him for my new main.

So I repeat, this F**KING THIRTEEN YEAR-OLD KID took Paragon PM. He did so much with his G&W it practically tells me a lot more on how you use the character. I'll provide the footage if possible later. Mr. LZ, I am so happy you took Paragon, please continue to win with that amazing Game & Watch skill!

 

[Ridel]

Welp pack it up. G&W nerfs are inbound. Honestly I don't wanna take a way from MrLz because he's gotten farther then any other G&W player out there, but the character my neeed some toning down in the Up-B department. Just slightly. Maybe give him a much more reliable throw combo to compensate.

 

[WinterShorts]

Welp pack it up. G&W nerfs are inbound. Honestly I don't wanna take a way from MrLz because he's gotten farther then any other G&W player out there, but the character my neeed some toning down in the Up-B department. Just slightly. Maybe give him a much more reliable throw combo to compensate.

True. Even I'll admit, that up-b has more power than it looks and can combo into an aerial, into a jump, into another aerial, killing one way or another. It's also very quick and gets you into the air nicely. I agree with ya.

 

[Ridel]

True. Even I'll admit, that up-b has more power than it looks and can combo into an aerial, into a jump, into another aerial, killing one way or another. It's also very quick and gets you into the air nicely. I agree with ya.

I think the main problem is a bunch of G&W mains may rely on it way too much and are very very hesitant to say it's too strong. I think if you wanna keep the Up-B as it is now you're gunna need to nerf N-Air. Honestly it being strong in Melee is fine because it really kind of made up for G&W other weaknesses. It was like a glimmer of gold amongst a **** character. Now that G&W has received many more tools the N-Air doesn't need to be obserdly strong anymore.

 

[WinterShorts]

I think the main problem is a bunch of G&W mains may rely on it way too much and are very very hesitant to say it's too strong. I think if you wanna keep the Up-B as it is now you're gunna need to nerf N-Air. Honestly it being strong in Melee is fine because it really kind of made up for G&W other weaknesses. It was like a glimmer of gold amongst a **** character. Now that G&W has received many more tools the N-Air doesn't need to be obserdly strong anymore.

And here I was thinking N-air was too slow...O_O

 

[Ridel]

And here I was thinking N-air was too slow...O_O

I'm not saying nerf N-Air persay; but rather if you want to keep Up-B as it is right now that would be the next best thing IMO.

 

[ForTheLulz]

Up-b is an incredibly safe combo breaker as it comes out frame 3. And, given that G&W can link his up-b into a kill move, and that the up-b is incredibly fast, it's almost dumb.

For example, in Winners Finals vs. Oracle, I believe that Lz up-b'ed oos to nair or fair to kill all the stocks in a game.

 

[WinterShorts]

Up-b is an incredibly safe combo breaker as it comes out frame 3. And, given that G&W can link his up-b into a kill move, and that the up-b is incredibly fast, it's almost dumb.

For example, in Winners Finals vs. Oracle, I believe that Lz up-b'ed oos to nair or fair to kill all the stocks in a game.

Maybe if I were sticking to @ Ridel 's opinion in a sense, if they were trying to nerf the up-b, they could increase the knockback so that it doesn't chain into another move.

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

Subtle thing I noticed him doing agasint Hbox: almost everytime he upBd and didn't get the nair followup, he would use an upair right as he was about to land. Super good coverage of his landing plus a pretty discrete animation. He even got one of hbox's stocks off of it leading into a nair. Good **** LZ, good ****

 

[zakzedd]

From my view, the simplest way to nerf up-b without too much damage to GnW would be to remove the extra jump if it was started in the air (ie you still have another jump if grounded up-b). Star KO and follow up potential is slightly lowered, but isn't completely irrelevant. Up-b oos is still fantastic, but to escape combos mid-air is a bit more unsafe compared to pre-nerf. While it does give a significant nerf to recovery, PMDT loves nerfing recoveries anyway.
I haven't mained GnW in a while so feel free to dismiss me.

 

[UltiMario]

One thing I really noticed that Mr. Lz was getting wins off of is that nobody wanted to mess with G&W's recovery, especially when sweetspotting, and even when his Double Jump was already burned. Mr. Lz neutral game is obviously fantastic (he's doing stuff I've seen nobody else really do, optimize throwing out Up Airs and Bacon in spare frames is especially impressive) and his spacing is incredible, but he was also getting a LOT of free stocks because nobody will touch G&W when he up-bs to the ledge. There's multiple really easy edgeguards I saw people miss because there's a lot of difficulty with reading G&W recovery.

I'm def not saying Mr. Lz's win is fraudulent or anything, but people need to hold the goddamn ledge.

If there was a G&W nerf to compensate that, it'd be him losing his DJ when getting hit out of Up-B. So people will actually attempt to edgeguard this character. It will almost ENTIRELY be a change that stops mental blocks from those playing against G&W with very little change to the character, and make people play against G&W better because for some reason everyone currently assumes it's a waste of your time trying to edgehog the character.

Seriously people, if Dr. PP or something was never edgeguarded he'd be winning every tournament too. You can't be afraid of edgeguarding a good player and getting those kills, or they'll just live too long each stock and win.

 

[Tomaster]

Up B and Dtilt both need a nerf imo... Dtilt because it's dumb that a move that comes out so fast with so much priority and lingering hitboxes kills so early and easily. CC-> dtilt=op. Especially considering G&W's already crazy good killing ability. Up b for all the reasons already mentioned. I think nerfing those 2 moves would make G&W players actually have to think to get a kill, right now it's just so easy. Good job to Lz for doing better than any other G&W, very impressive.

 

[WinterShorts]

Up B and Dtilt both need a nerf imo... Dtilt because it's dumb that a move that comes out so fast with so much priority and lingering hitboxes kill so early and easily. CC-> dtilt=op. Especially considering G&W's already crazy good killing ability. Up b for all the reasons already mentioned. I think nerfing those 2 moves would make G&W players actually have to think to get a kill, right now it's just so easy. Good job to Lz for doing better than any other G&W, very impressive.

I'm not sure if they would nerf d-tilt, since it's a move that's been fast since Melee, and if they did, i'm not sure how they would do it. Decreasing the hitbox frames seems rather odd with that said. And yeah, up-b seems almost mindless.

One thing I really noticed that Mr. Lz was getting wins off of is that nobody wanted to mess with G&W's recovery, especially when sweetspotting, and even when his Double Jump was already burned. Mr. Lz neutral game is obviously fantastic (he's doing stuff I've seen nobody else really do, optimize throwing out Up Airs and Bacon in spare frames is especially impressive) and his spacing is incredible, but he was also getting a LOT of free stocks because nobody will touch G&W when he up-bs to the ledge. There's multiple really easy edgeguards I saw people miss because there's a lot of difficulty with reading G&W recovery.

I'm def not saying Mr. Lz's win is fraudulent or anything, but people need to hold the goddamn ledge.

If there was a G&W nerf to compensate that, it'd be him losing his DJ when getting hit out of Up-B. So people will actually attempt to edgeguard this character. It will almost ENTIRELY be a change that stops mental blocks from those playing against G&W with very little change to the character, and make people play against G&W better because for some reason everyone currently assumes it's a waste of your time trying to edgehog the character.

Seriously people, if Dr. PP or something was never edgeguarded he'd be winning every tournament too. You can't be afraid of edgeguarding a good player and getting those kills, or they'll just live too long each stock and win.

Hot damn he did put those up-airs to work though..

 

[The 9!]

I agree with losing double jump after up-b as a nerf because it allows for too many kill combos that shouldn't be possible (i.e. up-b -> nair on jigglypuff at like 100%). Even though many people don't DI it, I don't think that will stop it from getting nerfed because it's a really safe kill combo. G&W should still be able to use his jump after a grounded up-b or if he was hit offstage without using a jump.

However, if PMDT doesn't want to remove the dj after up-b for some reason, I thought of a possible solution. They could consider removing the hitbox on up-b towards the later frames of the move. This will prevent high percent guaranteed up-b -> nair/fair combos and edgehogging G&W will be easier without the fear of being clipped by his recovery while holding ledge. This is a fair solution because he will also retain his low % combo game. They may also choose to make G&W helpless after using his double jump into up-b just like they did with mewtwo, but I feel that if they haven't decided to give him the mewtwo treatment by 3.6 then they've probably already considered this and decided against it.

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

They may also choose to make G&W helpless after using his double jump into up-b just like they did with mewtwo, but I feel that if they haven't decided to give him the mewtwo treatment by 3.6 then they've probably already considered this and decided against it.

Lol not being in helpless after the upB is like 60% of why I play game n watch.

Dtilt isn't as good as pple think. Most sh non-FFd areals fly right over it.

Edit: "most" is a bit of an overstatement, but enough do where it can be countered pretty easily if you have a decent read on the CC dtilt

Seriously people, if Dr. PP or something was never edgeguarded he'd be winning every tournament too. You can't be afraid of edgeguarding a good player and getting those kills, or they'll just live too long each stock and win.

Just like in Melee, using your invincibility frames straight demolishes his recovery. Invincible ledgehop bair with falcon/ ganon is enough to take a stock at like 15% since he has no horizontal recovery. One nerf I could see working out is to give him a bit more lag when he lands on stage out of his upB. Keeping your DJ becomes much more valuable to avoid that lag (unless they remove that out of the areal upB which isn't a bad idea) and makes edgeguarding a bit easier. I think he still is pretty balanced though, Mr LZ is just good and was reading his opponents all day.