This is VERY controversial.

[GawdImFoxy]

I'm of the opinion that MIOM is the bane of the REAL smash community. They're such powerful advocates of political correctness that I think they've let it blind them. Now before you go popping off about how this is stupid or whatever, let me just say that you should take a few minutes to read the entirety of my post before replying.

A few minutes ago, I made a rather satirical post in the MIOM facebook page about the recent issues with bigotry, offensive terminology, and other such problems that are currently plaguing our community. The post was something along the lines of "How long until I can't say I 'beat so and so' because someone was beaten as a child and it offends them." I went on to state something to the effect of "How long until I can't say 'round' because someone was overweight in middle school and got picked on?"

Now hear me out. I thought it was pretty clear that I was bringing up a serious topic for discussion. Apparently Tafo disagreed and promptly deleted the thread. This, at its core, was a serious thread. I even made it a point to comment immediately saying "^Serious question." Now for the part that all you MIOM fanboys will dislike. The part where I defend the use of such gestures. Let me preface this by saying that I'm, by no means, advocating offending someone. I just think political correctness has taken a bit of a proverbial front seat to actual gameplay. We're more like a soap opera cast than Melee players.

First of all, I didn't think this needed to be pointed out but apparently it wasn't evident enough at this point. When I "****" someone in a game of Melee, I didn't ACTUALLY forcefully have sex with them. I thought everyone learned the concept of homonyms in grade school but apparently there weren't many of us that actually did. When I say I "*****" them, I mean I actually decisively won my match against them. Again, in most cases, no sex actually took place. At this point, it goes without saying that "gay" somewhat follows suit.

Second, if you have an issue with something someone said, instead of pointing it out to a TO or admin or something, what's wrong with handling it on an individual basis? I know that's not always a comfortable thing to do but we all have the same goals in mind. We're MOSTLY adults, too. If you can't approach someone individually to say, "Hey man/woman, it kinda hurt my feelings that you said this or that. Can you please refrain from saying that around me?" Bam problem solved. I don't have to look at pointless threads about people getting offended anymore, you fixed the issue without it becoming a major problem, and all the online forums can go back to actually being about the game again. Everyone's happy. Let me just say that if you can't approach someone on a face-to-face basis about this, then you probably should never have a job. Especially in retail.

Another thing is that girls that play Smash, I think, are playing for the wrong reason. As an individual, not even as a man or woman, I play the game because I enjoy it. I don't play it because I aim to fit in with the entire community. I have my clique and they understand me. I'm sorry that saying "You're pretty decent for a girl" has become a sexist remark when 4 years ago it was a compliment. We're turning a blind eye to the fact of the matter which is that girls have a bad reputation for joining the community for the wrong reason. If they joined to enjoy the game, then this wouldn't be an issue at all. If they joined because of the community, then they should leave for the same reason. I have NO qualms with skilled or unskilled players. We're all individuals and I agree that we should be treated as such. But seriously.. why would that remark offend you? (I took this remark from a recent remark from the MIOM facebook page that was a genuine concern.)

But seriously though, how far will this go? MIOM has become sort of the mom of the community with their influence over a majority of the player demographic. I SERIOUSLY want to know when I won't be able to say I "beat" someone. Realistically this WILL come up in the future at this rate.

I guess I just miss when the community was about the game and not about the drama.

Again, I'm not advocating offending someone. If someone approaches me and tells me something offends them, then I take it to heart and cease the use of the word or idea around them. Not just in Melee but in life. Perfect example was when a good smasher friend of mine asked the entirety of facebook to cease the use of "****" around him. I have ceased it because he asked me to do so. Admittedly, I still use the word in the right company though. And I don't see why that's wrong.

End rant.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I've always thought it was sick that people in ANY community used the word **** for something positive.

he use of “****” in such a casual way misrepresents the gravity of sexual assault. **** is no laughing matter. In the United States, approximately 16 percent of women and three percent of men have been victims of attempted or completed ****. Fifteen percent of sexual assault victims are under 12. Sexual assault victims are three times more likely to suffer from depression and four times more likely to contemplate suicide than non-victims.
Therefore, the use of **** as a positive term is confusing and worrying. How can committing an act of **** be equated to winning or doing something well? There is nothing glamorous about ****, and nothing “cool” about committing sexual assault. The negative use of the word ”****” is not much better. Losing a sports game or doing badly on a test is nowhere near comparable to being a victim of ****. Imagine how a victim of sexual assault would feel hearing the word thrown around so casually.

Sure, **** is not the only word used in this context. “Kill” has often been used in exactly the same way, and complaints about it are few and far between. The use of murder in this context, however, is not as problematic as that of ****. The two words, while perhaps interchangeable in a sentence, are different entities with different histories.

For the last several centuries, murder has been universally accepted as the horrible crime that it is. When a murder is reported, it is always investigated and taken seriously. Even young children know and understand that killing is wrong.

****, however, still has a long way to go in terms of awareness, understanding, and prosecution. Almost all rapists (94 percent) do not spend even a day in jail. On average for the past five years, 60 percent of sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Even when a **** is reported, there is only a 50.8 percent chance of an arrest being made, and 31 percent of those convicted of a felony for **** will not spend time in jail.

In addition, **** prevention efforts and the recognition of marital **** as a crime did not come about until fairly recently, contrary to what one might assume. The first legally incorporated **** crisis center was not established until 1972. Every U.S. state had a marital **** exemption law, which stated that a husband ****** his wife was not a crime, until 1975, when South Dakota became the first to remove it. The last state to remove this exemption, North Carolina, did not do so until 1992. Many countries today still do not view **** within marriage as a crime.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

Getting ***** isn't a positive experience in Melee. Do you enjoy losing or something?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Getting ***** isn't a positive experience in Melee. Do you enjoy losing or something?

I've never heard someone say "I've been *****" which would be negative

But I've heard a lot of people say "I ***** you" which is using it positive

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

How is that even a good argument for using the word?

 

[GawdImFoxy]

I've never heard someone say "I've been *****" which would be negative

But I've heard a lot of people say "I ***** you" which is using it positive

I've heard a number of people say "I got *****" in reference to a game.

How is that even a good argument for using the word?

I shouldn't need an argument to use homonyms. I should just be able to use them because they shouldn't be this controversial.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Like I posed earlier

he use of “****” in such a casual way misrepresents the gravity of sexual assault. **** is no laughing matter. In the United States, approximately 16 percent of women and three percent of men have been victims of attempted or completed ****. Fifteen percent of sexual assault victims are under 12. Sexual assault victims are three times more likely to suffer from depression and four times more likely to contemplate suicide than non-victims.
Therefore, the use of **** as a positive term is confusing and worrying. How can committing an act of **** be equated to winning or doing something well? There is nothing glamorous about ****, and nothing “cool” about committing sexual assault. The negative use of the word ”****” is not much better. Losing a sports game or doing badly on a test is nowhere near comparable to being a victim of ****. Imagine how a victim of sexual assault would feel hearing the word thrown around so casually.

Sure, **** is not the only word used in this context. “Kill” has often been used in exactly the same way, and complaints about it are few and far between. The use of murder in this context, however, is not as problematic as that of ****. The two words, while perhaps interchangeable in a sentence, are different entities with different histories.

For the last several centuries, murder has been universally accepted as the horrible crime that it is. When a murder is reported, it is always investigated and taken seriously. Even young children know and understand that killing is wrong.

****, however, still has a long way to go in terms of awareness, understanding, and prosecution. Almost all rapists (94 percent) do not spend even a day in jail. On average for the past five years, 60 percent of sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Even when a **** is reported, there is only a 50.8 percent chance of an arrest being made, and 31 percent of those convicted of a felony for **** will not spend time in jail.

In addition, **** prevention efforts and the recognition of marital **** as a crime did not come about until fairly recently, contrary to what one might assume. The first legally incorporated **** crisis center was not established until 1972. Every U.S. state had a marital **** exemption law, which stated that a husband ****** his wife was not a crime, until 1975, when South Dakota became the first to remove it. The last state to remove this exemption, North Carolina, did not do so until 1992. Many countries today still do not view **** within marriage as a crime.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

Now I know that the word "****" offends you. I won't use it out of that specific context if I'm ever in your presence, then.

 

[Shadow the Past]

Second, if you have an issue with something someone said, instead of pointing it out to a TO or admin or something, what's wrong with handling it on an individual basis? I know that's not always a comfortable thing to do but we all have the same goals in mind. We're MOSTLY adults, too. If you can't approach someone individually to say, "Hey man/woman, it kinda hurt my feelings that you said this or that. Can you please refrain from saying that around me?" Bam problem solved. I don't have to look at pointless threads about people getting offended anymore, you fixed the issue without it becoming a major problem, and all the online forums can go back to actually being about the game again. Everyone's happy. Let me just say that if you can't approach someone on a face-to-face basis about this, then you probably should never have a job. Especially in retail.

I believe the deeper point trying to be made is that using offensive language can deter people from wanting to join/return to the community. The people most likely impacted by this are the new people; they're in a new and uncomfortable setting and don't want to cause any problems (i.e. approach someone asking them to stop doing something). If someone is going to their first tournament, having no idea what to expect, and the whole day people are shouting "****" left and right, they could very easily be offended and choose not to return based on that experience.

This same principle can be applied to other hobbies similar to Smash. When a group of basketball players get together to play casually, there's bound to be lots of yelling and name calling, just for the amusement of trash talk. But when that same group of people go to a serious basketball match against another team, they're going to definitely tone it down, otherwise spectators are likely going to be offended and not want to return.

The problem here is that Smash tournaments are sort of a gray area, in that the tournaments are both casual and serious at the same time. We organize these events professionally (or as professionally as they can be), then when we get there we start acting the way we do, with trash talking and using **** and gay and what have you.

 

[Luigitoilet]

my question is why do some people fight SO hard and will write massive walls of text to justify saying "****". like you need to say it so badly that you get a persecution complex over it lol

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I don't see why people can't just use another word besides ****.
- beat
- destroyed
- owned
- blown up
And this are just a few things people could say rather then ****. Why someone would use words that are demeaning and insensitive is beyond me.

 

[ndayday]

slippery slope, saying you beat someone is never going to offend someone as that is a correct usage of the word "beat." Same with round. If that ever happens I will join you but for now you're making farfetched assumptions. **** and gay are completely different words with completely different connotations. you can argue that **** also means getting beat badly but that is a minor usage and pretty much only in the gaming community, everyone else hears you say that and thinks wtf is wrong with you.

you can't justify saying offensive **** by saying "oh well I was never told I couldn't say that." If you are truly oblivious to that then there's no harm done but this isn't a case by case basis thing, it's something you should automatically think HEY, maybe using violent and offensive terminology around people isn't a good idea! Also some people don't like confrontation even if they are completely disgusted and you can't wave that behavior away by saying they must not have people skills lol.

go ahead and use it in the right company as you say. and yes persecution complex holy hell

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

and its like really?
what is it doing for the community
people are going on and on about how this whole ordeal is 'hurting the community's image!~'

i call bs

we cant be taken seriously if we think keeping the word **** in our vernacular is above talking about issues that concern the community (even outside the gender thing; there are many issues are community needs to address on multiple levels)

and also if someone says 'it's part of the community if you cant handle it then leave' i swear i will turn this car around because wot

 

[Vashimus]

I don't understand why people get so adamant about preserving their right to say it either. It's not rocket science. Just learn to think before you talk. This is **** your parents tell you when you're little. If it comes out accidentally, fine, just make sure you watch yourself.

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

also, as a woman who plays smash and has been playing/hosting tournaments for years now...

i joined the community because i enjoy the games. i also just happen to like the community too because ive made a lot of friends. i have taken time and effort to TO events. idk what your definition of an 'incorrect' reason for joining the community would be, but please remember that people will join the community for whatever reason they want to, and it really isnt anyone's place to judge at the end of the day.

and its hard to understand why this would offend women if you arent one (as silly as it is to say)
'oh so wait im not supposed to be good at games because i just happen to have lady parts wot'

and i have gotten this line fed to me for years and years. its stupid, really.

thats what that line translates to for many people, even if you dont mean that.

idk

just my 2 cents

this whole ordeal in general has really left a bad taste in my mouth

 

[Mic_128]

my question is why do some people fight SO hard and will write massive walls of text to justify saying "****". like you need to say it so badly that you get a persecution complex over it lol

Because they generally haven't had anything worse happen to them.

Again, I'm not advocating offending someone. If someone approaches me and tells me something offends them, then I take it to heart and cease the use of the word or idea around them. Not just in Melee but in life. Perfect example was when a good smasher friend of mine asked the entirety of facebook to cease the use of "****" around him. I have ceased it because he asked me to do so.

Would you go around, greeting people as 'Hey there, ****head' unless they explicitly asked you not to call them that?

Admittedly, I still use the word in the right company though. And I don't see why that's wrong.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around, does it make a noise? Yes.
If someone uses racist language and there's no one around to be offended, are they still racist? Yes.

 

[Lore]

Bla bla bla continue to keep it civil, bla bla bla

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

werekill i will fight you

civilly

 

[Pachinkosam]

Werekill I will fight you

civilly

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

BUI I WILL FIGHT YOU UNCIVILLY

(jk you are aight)

 

[Pachinkosam]

LOKII I WILL FIGHT YOU UNCIVILLY

(jk you are aight)

 

[Mic_128]

No civil wars in this room.

(The joke is no war is civil)

 

[Pachinkosam]

Mic is such a party pooper.

 

[Lore]

Oh wow, all these guys want to fight. Civilly.

Should I be worried, @ Mic_128 ?

 

[Mic_128]

Only if it doens't turn out like

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

Werekill. Slap fight. Jungle Gym. Recess. Winner gets the loser's juiceboxes and snacks for the week

 

[Niko Mar]

Would you go around, greeting people as 'Hey there, ****head' unless they explicitly asked you not to call them that?

That sums up what I was thinking pretty nicely.

It's not like I would say "Oh yeah, **** you ******, I totally just ***** your ass" to some random stranger (nor anyone) I just beat.
Oh wait, hold on....."I'm sorry, did that offend you?"

"Well if it offended you, ya shoulda tooooold me not to say it to you."

 

[Jam Stunna]

I've heard a number of people say "I got *****" in reference to a game.


I shouldn't need an argument to use homonyms. I should just be able to use them because they shouldn't be this controversial.

Firstly, that's the incorrect usage of the word homonym. Perhaps you meant synonym? Or metaphor? If that is what you meant, then it takes a rather astounding and twisted leap of logic to analogize defeat in a videogame with sexual assault. And just because many people make that same leap doesn't make it any less twisted.

Secondly, whenever I hear someone decry "political correctness" (or "a lack of free speech" in certain cases), what I really hear is, "My worldview is so narrow, my reasoning is so obtuse and my sense of entitlement is so bloated that I can't be bothered to consider the feelings and perspectives of other people. I justify this laziness on my part by disingenuously characterizing other's requests for basic decency and respect as an infringement on my rights."

What's REALLY sneaky about your line of argument in particular is how you cloak it in a veneer of reasonableness. 'We'll, I'll stop using this word if someone tells me it's offensive." Sounds reasonable, right? Except that you're implicitly acknowledging that your word choice is offensive, and instead of taking responsibility and policing your own language, you've shifted the responsibility to someone else, to have them let you know when you're using a problematic word even though you know full well that the word is problematic.

Finally, the community has become more sensitive. This is a good thing. Expanding our community to be aware of other people's feelings, and actually acting on protecting those feelings, is a good thing. If we have to choose between moving forward and being mindful of others and limiting our words and deeds as a result, or returning to when "the community was about the game and not about the drama;" that is, to a time when you and people like you could say and do whatever you wanted, well, I hope you have fun in 2007. The rest of us will be building something worth sharing with everyone.