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Thinking while you play.

Nyr

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 3, 2008
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41
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The Netherlands
I seem to have enormous problems with thinking while I play this game. Automatically, I go into robot mode and start spamming the same things over and over. Often this leads to me being punished and losing the match.

I feel this is a huge problem, and I'm noticing this with a lot of other things that I do as well. For example, lately I've been noticing that I'm going into robot mode while playing competitive draughts; a game in which you just have to look at a variety of moves you could make. This causes me to lose games very often, especially on higher levels, when a move really starts to count.

I've been telling myself from the start of the match (brawl) to think things over while playing, but this poses an enormous problem while playing. How do I train this in a proper way?
 

Allied

Smash Master
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Maybe you need some motivation and someone by your side while you play?

helps me sometimes i have the same problem though i can stop thinking
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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You can't play this game on auto-pilot and expect to be good. So stop playing on auto-pilot.
 

Meru.

I like spicy food
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I have the same problem sometimes. Remember yourself to continue thinking, and eventually, you'll think automatically most of the time.

Also, avoid mental fatigue.


:053:
 

Nyr

Smash Cadet
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May 3, 2008
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41
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The Netherlands
You can't play this game on auto-pilot and expect to be good. So stop playing on auto-pilot.
That's what I figured, and that's why I came here.

Thanks yaaay, I'll try that. Perhaps I'm not patient enough; always feeling the need to be able to do things as fast as possible. Maybe it's some sort of process.
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
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3,229
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Cheeseland, Europe
Yeah, acting before thinking is kinda the wrong sequence. The only way you'll get out of that habit is by playing more and getting more experience, preferably through playing people better than you. If you play a lot with people who are equally autopiloting, you won't really improve all that much. If you play against someone who understands how to completely obliterate you, you will gradually understand how you're being *****. Especially if you're caught doing the same thing over and over again, which is kind of what will happen if your opponent wants to beat you without mercy (e.g. he simply uses the same baiting tactic over and over again, you'll automatically learn not to fall for it as much).

tl;dr: Play more, get more experience, it doesn't solve itself just like that, it's a process that gradually develops itself the more you become a better player.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Auto-pilot is good at times, however. Those first few rounds during a tournament, unless you face someone you have to think, go auto-pilot. Save your mental strength. Mental fatigue is a very real thing that WILL affect you at later rounds of the tournament, if you don't take steps to conserve energy.
 

SharkAttack

Smash Lord
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Dec 4, 2005
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Mental fatigue always makes me Smash poorly. If I'm tired and want to sleep I will Smash so horribly because I'm not in the game. If I've got a tournament I try to get enough sleep before it. When I'm tired my reaction times go down dramatically and then I go on autopilot and do worse.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,627
I think something that helps is to evaluate how u are doing in a match. Look at ur percent and stocks and look at theirs. Are you losing or are you winning. If so why? Are you losing only because u tripped or ur finger slipped and you took alot of damage or are u losing because u are getting continually punished for doing things on purpose. If its the latter try changing up ur playstyle notice what they are doing to u when u do something and change it up. Idk thats what i do.
 

MikeKirby

OTL Winrar
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Yeah, it's true what some above me have said, after some time and experience you do tend to grow out of it. Though, sometimes yes you do go on auto-pilot every once in a while. When this happens to me and I notice it then I know that my opponent should be noticing it, too. That's a bad thing. So what I do is, I just talk to myself, not aloud mind you and try to keep myself attentive and alert. It should help. I even feel like developed my own personal cheerleader in my head, n' she's hawt. XD
 

BluePeachy100

Smash Champion
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Apr 28, 2009
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My problem is who I play. When I play good people I'm forced to think, when I play bad people I go robot mode. When I think, I ****, though. ;_;
 

Eddie G

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There is a lot of repetition/trial an error involved before someone can safely play on auto-pilot. Aside from that, perhaps having some friends around to cheer you on like Allied said is a good idea if you're the type of player who benefits from hype like I am.
 

Flayl

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The best way is for someone to point out your flaws mid match. It'll take your concentration away from the game but it'll force you to process what was said.
 

uhmuzing

human-alien-cig
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I can definitely confirm how much of a difference there is between playing auto-pilot and consciously thinking over what you should do midmatch. It's something you grow into doing as you naturally improve.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Answer this first and then I'll answer you question.
Are asking a serious question or trollin?
Yes, it is a serious question. I love hearing about different ways of playing and gaining more knowledge so I can come to a conclusion about the "best" way to play this game.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I just want to point out that you shouldn't over think things while you're playing. Don't worry about what's going to happen 20 seconds from now, then you're more focused on thinking than playing. Make sure there's a balance of playing and thinking.
 

Cornballer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
75
I just want to point out that you shouldn't over think things while you're playing. Don't worry about what's going to happen 20 seconds from now, then you're more focused on thinking than playing. Make sure there's a balance of playing and thinking.
Focus on a few things, however, don't think of your next move. Thinking of stage position a bit can help, but when it comes to act, don't think.
 

Variable

Smash Ace
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574
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My problem is who I play. When I play good people I'm forced to think, when I play bad people I go robot mode. When I think, I ****, though. ;_;
This.

I especially play well against better players, and harder match-ups, when I sometimes Auto-pilot against easy match-ups or newer/less advanced players.

I guess I just underestimate things sometimes.
 

6Mizu

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Yes, it is a serious question. I love hearing about different ways of playing and gaining more knowledge so I can come to a conclusion about the "best" way to play this game.
Then here is you answer. When your playing think about the following:
- How to mix things up
- Stage control
- How the stage works (for ex: Norfair's lava)
- Mindgames
- Think about what the opponent may do next (depending on were on the stage they are, or what character they are playing etc.)
- Think about "little" trixies you can do because of the stage or what chracter you play.
-If you opponent is in the air and that's their weakness tihnk about what you can do to keep them there. Vice-versa for characters that do bad on the ground.
-Think about your percentage and your opponents.
Their is a lot more than just this, but those are some of the main things I thought of right of the bat. Reply to this once you read it.

I just want to point out that you shouldn't over think things while you're playing. Don't worry about what's going to happen 20 seconds from now, then you're more focused on thinking than playing. Make sure there's a balance of playing and thinking.
This is very ture, this will cause unneeded "problems" and ultimately cause you to lose, but this doesn't mean that you should "play in the moment" or "Auto-pilot". Learn to balance your thoughts.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Then here is you answer. When your playing think about the following:
- How to mix things up
- Stage control
- How the stage works (for ex: Norfair's lava)
- Mindgames
- Think about what the opponent may do next (depending on were on the stage they are, or what character they are playing etc.)
- Think about "little" trixies you can do because of the stage or what chracter you play.
-If you opponent is in the air and that's their weakness tihnk about what you can do to keep them there. Vice-versa for characters that do bad on the ground.
-Think about your percentage and your opponents.
Their is a lot more than just this, but those are some of the main things I thought of right of the bat. Reply to this once you read it.



This is very ture, this will cause unneeded "problems" and ultimately cause you to lose, but this doesn't mean that you should "play in the moment" or "Auto-pilot". Learn to balance your thoughts.
Ok, so how should I think about what moves my opponent does next when there are so many? >_<
 

6Mizu

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Ok, so how should I think about what moves my opponent does next when there are so many? >_<
All of the things I listed come with practice. Practice thinking & playing against Lvl 7 comps, to help you get better at it.
Well, begin by placing your-self in a better position than your opponent. If not better at least a neutral position (unless you play someone like G&W). Once you've done this, "predicting" your opponent is slightly easier.
Otherwise, think about what character you opponent is playing. For example, Marth. Lets say you hit Marth's shield with whatever move Marths main option out of shield include his F-air, N-air, DTilt, Grab, Up-b (those are the main one's you'll see Marths doing) depedning on this you know what your next move will be. But, once pressured to a ledge, pretty much every Marth's OOSs will change, if not than their mindset will. My point, "reading" your opponent come from many things, but more from "what characters they are playing", "Where they are on the stage", and "how well you know this person".

Anything else you'd like me to explain, I'm free for more question. :)
 

Geddan

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i have the EXACT SAME PROBLEM.

yeah, it's more of a question on where to get started in terms of proper thinking during a match.

so, practicing on level 7 computers is a good way to start??????
 

6Mizu

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i have the EXACT SAME PROBLEM.

yeah, it's more of a question on where to get started in terms of proper thinking during a match.

so, practicing on level 7 computers is a good way to start??????
If you mean practicing thinking about everything I listed above and more then...YES. Please go do this against Lvl. 7s they are the most human like of all of the CPUs. Remember start playing slowly, and I mean literally play slow, because the faster you play the more likely you'll begin to start auto-piloting without realizing it. Especially if your not used to doing this. :)

BTW, Lvl. 7 may seem dumb at first...but they're fast learners. They'll learn and get better just like humans. Play against Lvl. 7s for long enough and you'll see what I mean.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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All of the things I listed come with practice. Practice thinking & playing against Lvl 7 comps, to help you get better at it.
Well, begin by placing your-self in a better position than your opponent. If not better at least a neutral position (unless you play someone like G&W). Once you've done this, "predicting" your opponent is slightly easier.
Otherwise, think about what character you opponent is playing. For example, Marth. Lets say you hit Marth's shield with whatever move Marths main option out of shield include his F-air, N-air, DTilt, Grab, Up-b (those are the main one's you'll see Marths doing) depedning on this you know what your next move will be. But, once pressured to a ledge, pretty much every Marth's OOSs will change, if not than their mindset will. My point, "reading" your opponent come from many things, but more from "what characters they are playing", "Where they are on the stage", and "how well you know this person".

Anything else you'd like me to explain, I'm free for more question. :)
I think you've touched up on a lot of where I need help w/. What about habits and the like? How can I get better @ noticing them quicker? There seems to be so much going on in a match, and if I think I see one, another comes up, and they phase through my mind so quickly that I forget what I should be looking for >_<
 

Roie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Messages
40
When you are learning the game, thinking is okay. For instance, keeping in mind lucario has a strong dair. Then you practice and practice until you don't need to consciously think while playing.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
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Jan 30, 2009
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Indianapolis, Indiana
I think mostly about the player when I play. Stage knowledge is subconscious (I've played on Battlefield enough times to know that my U-Tilt and U-smash are my two ground moves that hit people on the platforms above me, but if an opponent has my banana U-smash can make me trip), and spacing you have to be aware of but it's not something I actively think about. I just think of reading the opponent and zoning most.

For example, I just played a (Wi-Fi) match a couple hours ago and I was completely focused, and this was my mindset in the first stock — just figuring him out.

I'm Diddy. He's Captain Falcon. We're playing on Battlefield.

The match starts, I pluck a banana, and he approaches but a bit hesitantly, I shield a Dash Attack with a banana in my hand, which gives me the idea that he doesn't know what attacks are safe on shield against Diddy (meaning I'm more likely to shield in the match) and maybe doesn't know how to use bananas.

A couple seconds later we're on opposite ends of the screen, I just shoot peanuts. He approaches me with awkward full hop D-airs and goes over the top of the BF platforms to get to me. This gives a greater hint that he doesn't know what to do against bananas, is afraid of the bananas, and therefore probably doesn't know how to use them. When most players don't know how to use bananas, they throw them back at Diddy within the first few seconds of getting them.

So the match continues, a few seconds later he gets a banana in his hand. I land and shield, and my prediction was right; he runs and throws it at me, so I SH Z-catch it and soon drop it afterwards as he's running towards me.

This gives me the idea that I don't have to play defensive; I can probably rush him with bananas and he won't know what to do. I try this and he uses pretty good defensive options, like shielding then rolling away, or spotdodging, etc.

This gives me the idea that I'll be a bit more pseudo-aggressive. I'll zone him at midrange (a range where Diddy excels) and either play defensive to bait attacks, or throw out a banana/run around a bit in his range to bait a defensive reaction I can punish with the other. It's almost footsies. This works extraordinarily well, and I dish out at least twice the damage I receive.

Now he's at high percents. With how I'm playing, it's difficult to punish something with a banana trip and still be in range to kill with D-smash or F-smash, because I'd have to be a bit closer (which I didn't want to be, as mid-range was working well). Another common reaction with bananaphobiac players is rolling away whenever tripped. A lot of players, even ones who know how to react to bananas, still commit to one reaction, so it's worth paying attention to. Through the stock from early percents, I payed attention to how he rolled when I was out of range (without commiting to a kill move as I didn't want to whiff, and then he'd know what I'm doing and make it difficult for me). Sure enough, he rolled back every time except one where he tripped very close to the ledge (he rolled towards the center). Common reaction. When it was time for kill percents, I got a trip at mid-range and dashed past his trip. He rolled back and I d-smashed him.

Through that one stock I learned:
-He threw bananas back at me nearly every time he got them
-He took awkward full-hop approaches towards me, often resulting in him landing on a platform which was punishable with U-tilt or U-smash
-He usually rolled back after being tripped
-He reacted well defensively, so I tried to bait attacks to punish (C. Falcon doesn't have the safest approach options either)
-He didn't grab much, instead opting to attack my shield
-He'd sometimes do Dash Attack or Falcon Kick when he was close to me (also punishable)
-I should zone at midrange

That was a much more simple example. Against people who know the Diddy match-up pretty well, or are at least comfortable with bananas, there's a lot more potential situations I have to pay attention to and remember reactions of, as well as remember all my mix-ups, gimmicks, and situational tricks (diddy has a ton lol). But that's the sort of things I usually think of when I'm playing.

I can't say I'm successful all the time though. Because I depend so much on reading the opponent, people/characters with a lot of mix-ups, and people who play unpredictable usually trash me. I think of what I do second, so sometimes when I'm feeling pressured I play within the same habits and am predictable myself. Those are things I need to work on, but I know where my mental strengths and weaknesses lie, and in my opinion Brawl is a very mental game.

I also glossed over and forgot a lot of things that I thought during the match in my example, but that's just a general idea of what I think, hopefully it helps you a bit or gives you some ideas.
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
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- How to mix things up
- Stage control
- How the stage works (for ex: Norfair's lava)
- Mindgames
- Think about what the opponent may do next (depending on were on the stage they are, or what character they are playing etc.)
- Think about "little" trixies you can do because of the stage or what chracter you play.
-If you opponent is in the air and that's their weakness tihnk about what you can do to keep them there. Vice-versa for characters that do bad on the ground.
-Think about your percentage and your opponents.
Their is a lot more than just this, but those are some of the main things I thought of right of the bat. Reply to this once you read it.
i dont agree with this, when you think you should mostly be thinking about your opponents habits.

mixing things up will come if youre reading properly. or NOT mixing things up. lmao depends on how smart your opponent is.

stage control should be natural if you practice on the stage enough.

percentages, matchup experience, all that stuff should come naturally after youve done it enough times and know your options.

i could go on and on but, i feel that focusing on your opponents habits is the most important thing.
 

luke_atyeo

Smash Hero
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7,215
I love how many posts in this thread were like "dont play on autopilot, you'll never win"
the tc stated that himself in the first post lol.

anyways heres my trick to try, watch a replay of yourself or get someone else to watch you and find a weakness, it may be you keep doing this 1 thing over and over again, you might be di-ing wrong, hell you might be watching your character and not theirs.

once you know what your mistake is, tell it to somebody and have him watch you play someone else and everytime you do it, have him point it out and remind you, over and over again.
it'll help after a while.
 

Dekar173

Justice Man
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Jun 25, 2008
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Lol m2k doesn't think while he plays, it's all hardwired into his memory.

SPACING FOR DAIR IS UNPUNISHABLE WILL ATTEMPT RUN DAIR.EXE

It helps if you can count frames, like him.
 

Huggles828

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thats some bull****. hes not some super computer, and he has habits like anyone else, but he does think.
I think the point is even though M2K is thinking, he's done it so often and is so good at it he can "think" about it in a very second hand way while focusing on other things. It's like riding a bike; at first you have to think about balancing yourself. Eventually you don't even put any conscious thought as your subconscious can take control.

First, I'd say get comfortable with your moveset. Try to not even think about what your fingers are doing. When you think MK's Shuttle Loop, think recovery, don't think"I need to move my fingers to B and up." Then, start paying attention to where you are on the stage and where is your best positioning. Eventually this will also become second nature. Then, start paying attention to what your opponent does as bad habits. Eventually, you'll be able to read and predict opponents without having to put as much conscious effort into as you subconsicously keep track of "My opponent always rolls back when they fall down." Finally, pay attention to what moves you do and when you tend to do them, and what options you have. Don't do the same move more than a few times in any particular situation. Eventually, you'll find you've subconciously been keeping track of what you've been doing and can choose another option.

Playing "robotically" is bad, but playing instinctively and playing thoughtfully do not have to entirely exclude each other.
 

6Mizu

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i dont agree with this, when you think you should mostly be thinking about your opponents habits.

mixing things up will come if youre reading properly. or NOT mixing things up. lmao depends on how smart your opponent is.

stage control should be natural if you practice on the stage enough.

percentages, matchup experience, all that stuff should come naturally after youve done it enough times and know your options.

i could go on and on but, i feel that focusing on your opponents habits is the most important thing.
Don't try to start stupid little arguments with people. He's a beginner an that's what he need to be thinking about. Also, I'm not sure if you read or not I said something like that was "some of the main things" he should've been thinking about.


Lol m2k doesn't think while he plays, it's all hardwired into his memory.

SPACING FOR DAIR IS UNPUNISHABLE WILL ATTEMPT RUN DAIR.EXE

It helps if you can count frames, like him.
Well, when you've played for long enough you now what your doing/a lot of the options.

Also, he play MK. -.-
 

Nyr

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
41
Location
The Netherlands
Thanks for all the help guys. I've been practicing on lvl 7 CPU's for a while and I'm feeling slightly improved. At least I'm mixing things up and learning new stuff about my character; I never knew DK's downB had such range and was great at punishing spot dodges.

I'm definitely going to improve in the future, or at least so I hope. Thanks for all the help.
 

Limeee

Smash Champion
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Feb 5, 2009
Messages
2,797
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Edmonton, Alberta
auto-pilot is a really bad habit i share myself

just take the game at your own pace, and you'll start to think things through

or play against someone really good for a while, they'll punish your auto pilot and force you to be creative
 
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