Things to make charizard competitively viable

[Nathan Richardson]

I know this was in character discussion but has essentially dried up over there from what I can see. Here's the elephant in the room as far as zard lovers go. His awful advantage state and no real way to get kills that doesn't rely on reads. If this doesn't feel right feel free to move or lock this but as previously stated the discussion under character conversation pretty much dried up.
Here's my ideas to make zard more viable in a competitive standpoint:

1. Give charizard a proper fastfall. Zard is among the worst fastfallers in the game (last I checked 48th out of 50th but i'm sure that's seriously out of date little help on that front?) fastfalling is among one of the most basic things a character needs so they can mix an opponent up and land properly. Zard doesn't have this.
2. Give one of zard's moves shield-breaking capabilities. Let's face it, a lot of other characters are much better at smashing shields than zard (i'm looking at you Bowser and Marth) basic strategies when facing zard is 'spam shield and rolls and he's cake' because zard fails so hard when someone shields him he needs a way around it other than that awful grab move that extends his hurtbox.
3. Better air speed. Nothing makes an opponent laugh their butts off than a SDing zard who accidentally did flare blitz instead of rock smash. This is because zard's air speed is notoriously awful (and considering he's supposed to be able to FLY it shouldn't be) his jump height is fairly subpar but it's his vertical air speed that hurts him more than anything else, it's also part of the reason why his advantage state is so awful despite having an ok ground dash speed.
4. Better traction. I heard off the competitive forum that zard's traction is the second worst in the cast. This makes his OoS options severely limited. If his traction was better his OoS game would be phenomenal.
5. Fix that damn side special! The biggest chink in zard's armor is flare blitz, it has bad starting lag, travels way too far if you're on stage and if it's jablocked you're screwed! There's also the problem that due to it's distance you'd accidentally SD if you aren't careful. This has happened to me due to online lag! This is one of the biggest reasons flare blitz is replaced the second custom moves are chosen.
6. Give zard's flamethrower longer range. Yeah I know i'm going to get gripes about this but zard's flamethrower is way too versatile to have such a piddly range. It's amazing, can cancel out various projectiles and does great when it comes to shield pressure. However the longer it's held the shorter it's range gets. Having a longer range will seriously help zard out against long-range zoners.

That's about all I can think of, tbh I'm sure doing all of that at once would make zard unfairly overpowered but these are all gripes I've had or other people have brought up. Thoughts?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ehhhhhhh hmmmmmm

Pretty sure Zard's advantage state is not "awful."

Dthrow --> Fair is a thing for damage and edge guard setups.

Dthrow --> Uair when DIed towards Zard is thing as well, or when % starts to climb.

We have a kill throw with Uthrow. That's a option.

Usmash, Utilt, Fair, Bair, Uair, Down B, Ftilt, even Jab3 kills.

We juggle well with Utilt, Usmash, grab, Uair, Down B. Covering land is easy with Zard.

Edge guarding with flame thrower, Fair, and Bair works well.

Ledgetrapping with flame is guaranteed basically.

So yeah, we have a well-rounded advantage state compared to the other heavies. DK and bowser are about throw combos. They don't have as many kill moves as we do. well, bowser does for sure, but DK doesn't. DK does have a slightly better neutral than us I think (Bair is too gud). I think we're pretty good in comparison to all the heavies. Our weakness is our defense In OOS and after getting hit, and our laggy aerials.

1. Having a faster fastfall would improve his disadvantage state, So I'm with this.

2. Not super necessary, Zard's Grab may extend his hurtbox, but it also extends his hitbox, so his Grab is long and he's fast. Pivot grab is amazing too.

3. I like this change for disadvantage, but flare blitz just needs less lag when aerial. Btw, Zard is almost as fast as sheik on the ground ( sheik = 2.016 vs Zard = 2).

4. No issues here.

5. Less ending lag would be good. Not the most important change tho.

6. Ehhhh, not really needed. Zard fast dash speed and CQC ability (jab, grab, Fair, Ftilt, Dtilt, Usmash, Nair, etc..) allows him to hone in on opponent's.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm but you're comparing him to other heavyweights for some of these what i'm to talk about is making him viable in regards to the rest of the cast. When zard is against a speedy character like sonic he's forced to approach and has a really hard time doing so and despite what I said about zard and flamethrower he needs an answer to get opponents out of their shields....saw this post was moved btw this seriously needs to be in competitive discussion.

edit: there's also the problem that dthrow stops comboing characters without di or sdi at very low percentages, either pump up dthrows combo potential or give zard a kill confirm another way (personally since zard can dash right out of bthrow why not lower bthrows BKB so zard can use something like fair or upb to follow up the throw, I only have issues with zard's throw game because he doesn't have true combos at all percents)

 

[Juno23]

How to Make Zard Viable?? Git better and work on your match-ups. Work on your Mix-ups and learn to fly. Although I do wish that the gliding mechanic was back from Brawl.. I thought that was super dope.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

How to Make Zard Viable?? Git better and work on your match-ups. Work on your Mix-ups and learn to fly. Although I do wish that the gliding mechanic was back from Brawl.. I thought that was super dope.

It's not that simple, zard has a hard time approaching and has a lot of 6:4 matchups. And mixups? What mixups?!? Charizard doesn't have a ton of protection from cross-ups that end with the opponent behind him. It's not enough to 'know your matchups' he's not tournament viable according to a ton of people on the competitive page. Only DK and bowser are due to their grab combos that work at any percentage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fastfalling is an issue. But he still can land better than pretty much every other heavy, except maybe like D3 in some situations? Due to three jumps and Rock Smash helping him out.

I wouldn't hold shield against Zard at all....that's not an easy win mode button given he has a lot of grab set-ups and a kill throw. Even if we include shield breaks...I've gotten those on players better than me due to Flare Blitz/Rock Smash and bair, they do insane damage so they nuke shields. Camping him? Yeah that works but just holding shield doesn't make you win against Zard.

The third one I would be careful of because if he has better air speed, Dthrow to Bair could become a true combo. That is a lot dumber than DK or Bowser's kill confirms. You can potential kill at 70 hell even earlier if you do it at the ledge.

Flare Blitz just needs to not let you be jab locked when you hit a shield or be that punishing on a whiff. It has it's uses, it's just not core to him and it never should be.

Traction and some other issues I agree with, but I would be more careful on some of these issues. Improving him without making something legitimately frustrating to play against. Like increasing air speed too much.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

True, I did originally say doing all of these buffs to him at the same time would be overkill and make him extremely unfair. In fact that's what I said at the end of my topic. However, how do we buff zard properly to have him stand a chance against the likes of say diddy kong or bayonetta who crush him in camping, combos, and easy kill confirms. Or against characters like sheik who while being ridiculously technical can easily shred zard with needles into combos?

 

[Pixel_]

And mixups? What mixups?!? Charizard doesn't have a ton of protection from cross-ups that end with the opponent behind him.

Personally I mix up things like Bair / B-reverse Flamethrower, Dash Grab / Dash attack, etc.

Also, does Charizard really need throw combos at all percents? Doesn't Bair start killing when Dthrow stops comboing?
And if you can't land a Bair, Uthrow starts killing at higher percents, especially with platforms.

 

[arbustopachon]

I'd buff his traction to around captain falcon levels and tweak his hurtbox so it doesn't extend over our grab.

If they don't fix his hurtbox for the rumored switch version they could at least increase a bit the kbg of the early hit of dash attack so it can kill at reasonable percents. That would pressure the opponent into shielding more which might help cover for our awful dash grab.

I'm pretty happy with current Zard tho, so i wouldn't mind if they don't buff him.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'd buff his traction to around captain falcon levels and tweak his hurtbox so it doesn't extend over our grab.

If they don't fix his hurtbox for the rumored switch version they could at least increase a bit the kbg of the early hit of dash attack so it can kill at reasonable percents. That would pressure the opponent into shielding more which might help cover for our awful dash grab.

I'm pretty happy with current Zard tho, so i wouldn't mind if they don't buff him.

You may be satisfied where he is but according to the competitive boards he's essentially ****. No real kill confirms besides up throw that don't rely on baits or reads (for the competitive community this one is huge), lousy traction (everyone agrees his traction sucks), not to mention nonexistent fastfall speed (a basic fundamental in competitive smash and zard doesn't have it wtf?!?), tbf I don't really know how to breverse all that well so there's something I need to work on but that's small potatoes compared to zard's other glaring flaws.
People use DK and Bowser but won't touch charizard due to lack of kill confirms. The fact that this character board is so dead pretty much cements this.

 

[Pixel_]

You may be satisfied where he is but according to the competitive boards he's essentially ****. No real kill confirms besides up throw that don't rely on baits or reads (for the competitive community this one is huge), lousy traction (everyone agrees his traction sucks), not to mention nonexistent fastfall speed (a basic fundamental in competitive smash and zard doesn't have it wtf?!?), tbf I don't really know how to breverse all that well so there's something I need to work on but that's small potatoes compared to zard's other glaring flaws.
People use DK and Bowser but won't touch charizard due to lack of kill confirms. The fact that this character board is so dead pretty much cements this.

R.O.B. boards is totally dead but R.O.B. is considered mid-high tier (or maybe just mid tier? Either way he isn't low tier). The activity doesn't necessarily reflect the character's viability, especially since most people moved to Discord anyway.
Charizard does have kill confirms, shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMPxURR_Z0c
(also the later jab lock combos in this video can lead to a kill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wiMflxQo5k)

Since Charizard has the tools to get the opponent offstage (Fthrow/Bthrow at mid percents should be able to do it at most positions on the stage, Dthrow > Fair, and Bair, which is safe on shield), and his edgeguarding game (Flamethrower, which is totally OP, and Dair, which is really scary) pairs up with that fact pretty well.

Traction is a problem if you're trying to get a grab, but don't forget the fact that his jab has ridiculous range.

Still want to put a lot of emphasis on Bair because it's long ranged, kills early, autocancels out of a full hop, and is safe on shield. Why have kill confirms when you have an aerial with the power of a smash attack?

Yeah, Charizard's disadvantage state is pretty bad, but there are ways to get around it. Multi jumps to mix up landings, Nair / Bair / Fair / Flamethrower to cover landings (all should be safe on shield with correct spacing), and Fly / Rock Smash super armor to get out of combos. Fly/Rock Smash have super armor starting frame 4 and 5 respectively, so they can get you out of combos pretty well. They are exploitable if predicted, but since Charizard is a heavy, you live longer even if you mess up.

Charizard isn't perfect but he still has throw combos, decent edgeguarding, a pretty good recovery, and a moveset that scares the pants off of people. Though I can't claim to have won a tournament with Charizard yet, the two guys who've fought my Charizard the most are literally scared of him because of how powerful his options are. I'm not saying Charizard is top tier or anything, but he's definitely not incapable of doing anything. Try watching gameplay of Sharpy's Charizard; he's considered the best Charizard and should show you what he's capable of.
(lol I think I went a bit overboard with this post)

 

[Nathan Richardson]

R.O.B. boards is totally dead but R.O.B. is considered mid-high tier (or maybe just mid tier? Either way he isn't low tier). The activity doesn't necessarily reflect the character's viability, especially since most people moved to Discord anyway.
Charizard does have kill confirms, shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMPxURR_Z0c
(also the later jab lock combos in this video can lead to a kill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wiMflxQo5k)

Since Charizard has the tools to get the opponent offstage (Fthrow/Bthrow at mid percents should be able to do it at most positions on the stage, Dthrow > Fair, and Bair, which is safe on shield), and his edgeguarding game (Flamethrower, which is totally OP, and Dair, which is really scary) pairs up with that fact pretty well.

Traction is a problem if you're trying to get a grab, but don't forget the fact that his jab has ridiculous range.

Still want to put a lot of emphasis on Bair because it's long ranged, kills early, autocancels out of a full hop, and is safe on shield. Why have kill confirms when you have an aerial with the power of a smash attack?

Yeah, Charizard's disadvantage state is pretty bad, but there are ways to get around it. Multi jumps to mix up landings, Nair / Bair / Fair / Flamethrower to cover landings (all should be safe on shield with correct spacing), and Fly / Rock Smash super armor to get out of combos. Fly/Rock Smash have super armor starting frame 4 and 5 respectively, so they can get you out of combos pretty well. They are exploitable if predicted, but since Charizard is a heavy, you live longer even if you mess up.

Charizard isn't perfect but he still has throw combos, decent edgeguarding, a pretty good recovery, and a moveset that scares the pants off of people. Though I can't claim to have won a tournament with Charizard yet, the two guys who've fought my Charizard the most are literally scared of him because of how powerful his options are. I'm not saying Charizard is top tier or anything, but he's definitely not incapable of doing anything. Try watching gameplay of Sharpy's Charizard; he's considered the best Charizard and should show you what he's capable of.
(lol I think I went a bit overboard with this post)

Lol sorry if I triggered you but yeah I know about his jabs but once percentages start getting high the third hit doesn't connect on certain characters. I wish the people on discord would come back here....I don't use discord.

 

[Pixel_]

Lol sorry if I triggered you but yeah I know about his jabs but once percentages start getting high the third hit doesn't connect on certain characters. I wish the people on discord would come back here....I don't use discord.

Maybe I was a little triggered lol. Have you tried jab > grab?
I recommend getting Discord if you can because, well, Smashboards is basically dead. I doubt people will be coming back, too; lots of people consider Discord way more accessible/etc. and the fact that it's more active makes it a lot more appealing.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm but then what will I do? Ask the mods to close out my account? That seems pretty pointless, not to mention we're going off topic now. Between fastfall speed and traction which do you think would push zard closer to mid-high to high tier?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hrmm but then what will I do? Ask the mods to close out my account? That seems pretty pointless, not to mention we're going off topic now. Between fastfall speed and traction which do you think would push zard closer to mid-high to high tier?

Less laggy aerials. Making Nair SH cancelable would be nice

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm red ryu said that greater air speed would make dthrow to bair a true dingdong and make it even dumber than bowser or DKs dingdong. Would less laggy aerials fall under the same category?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hrmm red ryu said that greater air speed would make dthrow to bair a true dingdong and make it even dumber than bowser or DKs dingdong. Wouldlig less laggy aerials fall under the same category?

No, we just won't have to suffer extensive lag anytime we slightly mistime our auto cancels.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

No, we just won't have to suffer extensive lag anytime we s

Hate to break it to you but your thought got cut off, what were you trying to say?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hate to break it to you but your thought got cut off, what were you trying to say?

fixed it.0

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think having less landing lag on all of zards aerials would make him high tier for sure, it would make spacing easier and make landing after attacking less punishable while still being fair.

 

[free33]

no kill setups? what about jab 2 to Usmash or up B? both are pretty damn consistent. in terms of buffs, How about guaranteed Bthrow flare blitz at certain percents XD

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Oof if bthrow to flare blitz was always true that'd be even worse than DK or Bowser grab combos because even though flare blitz is easily shieldable it's power and KB are big!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Charizard has some problems, he does like most mid tier or lower characters do. Personally I think he is lower mid tier but it's something that takes time to see more potential in the character. He's not even that bad, he has issues some of which I do agree with the OP on, but like buffing characters you need to be careful and some of it is a playtesting thing.

I personally didn't see problems with buffing air speed until someone pointed out Dthrow to RAR bair might become a true combo if he was fast enough.

It's something you gotta sit down and think. That or mod your game and see what does happen when you do that.

 

[Dustydog96]

I think Zard IS viable, has good/even mu's with top tiers (cloud/mario/marth,diddy, to name a few). Once we see actual good players use him more often in a tournament setting (like anti, bringing komorikiri to game 5 WITH charizard) his flames will shine bright. I'm almost positive we'll see Zard make moves in 2017. Zard imo is a step ahead of where Ike currently is which is very good. We have throw combos, heavy damage output, fanominal edgeguards, top 3 killthrow, one of the best combo breakers that KILLS (Up-B) and weight to keep us alive as rage monsters, coupled with a great recovery (3 jumps, and up-b that has super armor throught). QUITE good frame data where it counts as well (fair/jabs/upsmash/upb).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm I might need a new controller. My zard keeps doing usmash when I want to do utilt. Seriously though even though he has good points he's still shut out again 60% of the characters people bring into high level tourneys (sheik and ZSS for starters). The idea for my post is how to have zard keep up with THOSE characters.