Things that make melee boring and annoy me

[forward]

I think I'm too old man. I get so irritated by technical players sometimes. I mean, I'm pretty technical, I do some complicated **** sometimes, but I always have purpose behind it. At least when I try to play well I have a purpose. I'm sure that when I play off of muscle memory my tech skill pointless many times, but I'm getting off track here.

What annoys me is that players can be good not off of the decisions they make but because of their tech skill. The truth though, is that that isn't good. If you don't understand why something works then you will not improve because the workings of a tactic need to evolve, and if they do not evolve then your metagame does not evolve.

To top it off, players john about having bad tech skill. Not being warmed up is understandable, making bad decisions, that too is understandable, but bad tech skill? I suppose, but more often than not players are just playing off their robotic hands that they developed by copying players who actually developed the purpose behind tech skill. What they consider bad tech skill is what a knowledgeable player would call making a bad decision. Missed the L cancel? You didn't read the shield. Messing up your dash dance? You're not calling the spacing. I just heard mango say this today in an interview at apex and he said it perfectly, don't worry about your tech, just worry about reading the opponent.

The boring part of melee, it's so old. I watched an old CF combo video by Tapion, some of you know it, it's called "Isai, are you watching?" I found it humorous that the same combos he pulled off back in 06? 05? Are still the same ones being shown in CF combo videos today. Up air knee is so old, it's boring.

I will admit though, watching it live is another story.

Oh yea, and what else is boring is winning and being so good at this game. Seriously, I'm so good it's boring. I do terrible at out of state tournaments because I get bored of the game and lose interest to try (johns). I do well at tournaments if I don't play before them because it makes the game a little more fresh. So it works like this, I play better out of practice but putting in effort than I do than in practice and not caring.

The same mind games, the same combos, the same ledge guards.......

I'm too old for this ****.

It's boring now.

But I can never stop playing.

Peace.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Pretty much the same idea I have about the game nowadays. I guess copying your playing style had me copying your feelings towards the game as well.

Focusing on the readings rather than on the technical stuff is what people I'm trying to train mostly fail at. Some of the Italians even surpassed me in technical skills but still don't manage to win.

I have no idea of why people nowadays are so worried about tech stuff, what I can tell though is that the game was funnier in 06/07. Back then I had more sources of inspiration. Watching matches today on the other hand is kinda disappointing (watching them live with all the hype and everything is still nice, but that's because of the hype itself, not because of the skills involved).

As for the lack of challange, I haven't lost a set against an Italian player since 2006. Not a tournament, a set. So I understand this too. And stopping for a while to make the game more refreshing worked a bit for me too.

What I hate the most in this game though are unescapable situations. Meaning things like chaingrabs, wobbling, etc. In those situations breaking free only depends on your opponent doing a mistake. If he's good enough you could pretty much put down your pad and wait for the stock to be gone. This is also why I like Melee more than SSB64.

The game never really gets "too old" to me however sooner or later you get to the point where rather than travelling for tournaments you prefer saving time and $.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Forward: I've been saying that for awhile, but I just get flamed that "I know nothing about the current metagame". Then I watch tons of "modern" Melee and 90% of the stuff is the same as back in 2006. How entertaining can triple knee's be for the 1000th time? Or shine > dair combo's with any variant needed to account for DI?

Watching Armada though is entertaining, because we never did have a Peach that good. He is original.

 

[AOB]

You can only squeeze so much out of a game. The innovations won't keep coming forever.

 

[KishSquared]

Sure they can. You guys are just old.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Combo videos in general are ********. Unless your video is in some kind of absurd level of its own(see mango+lucky+alex) or youre just some kind of otherworldly being who is capable of doing what im pretty sure is impossible(SS/dark) then youre just making the same vid as everyone else.

 

[KishPrime]

You can only squeeze so much out of a game. The innovations won't keep coming forever.

Innovations won't keep coming forever until someone comes up with an innovation. Hence, why chess strategy continues to evolve, despite the fact that it's been around for hundreds of years.

Armada came up with a significant innovation. So did Mango for Jigglypuff and Chu for ICs. It takes a special insight into a character to do it, but the number of new players in the community and combined practice time of the entire world are both likely at an all-time low, which doesn't exactly help innovation.

 

[Cactuar]

My biggest complaint is that everyone I have friendlied at apex so far has spent the majority of the matches running away and camping. I get so ****ing bored.

 

[Marc]

Yeah, the metagame is very defensive and campy. Basically what every fighting game devolves into, except it took Melee 8 years rather than the 8 weeks it took for Brawl. The best players for pretty much all top characters don't really approach. I've been bored with Melee for a while and intend to fully quit after this summer (so that's 2 more tournaments). I've had an okay run, it's been fun and I'll always love the game, but it just doesn't feel the same anymore. I don't expect anyone to understand this other than the old school peeps.

The metagame is likely to change a little more though, the core of top players keeps pushing the game forward. The influx of new players doesn't matter as much in that regard, as 100 n00bs won't do more for the metagame than 10. The only thing that's gotten unlikely is for someone to rise up who doesn't already play.

 

[KishPrime]

My biggest complaint is that everyone I have friendlied at apex so far has spent the majority of the matches running away and camping. I get so ****ing bored.

The obvious next question - does it work?

 

[Deleted member]

Forward: I've been saying that for awhile, but I just get flamed that "I know nothing about the current metagame". Then I watch tons of "modern" Melee and 90% of the stuff is the same as back in 2006. How entertaining can triple knee's be for the 1000th time? Or shine > dair combo's with any variant needed to account for DI

Pretty much this. I find it embarrassing for my opponents to have problems against me when I'm obviously beyond terrible at the game. "This isn't 2007 anymore".

 

[KishPrime]

As soon as Brawl came out, the metagame was pretty much destined to devolve, and I've been saying that for years as well. Think of how many years of practice were lost from the community after Brawl released! Some came back, but most left for good or simply retired. New players can't replace that experience, so we have to wait until they build it up again. Problem is, there aren't a lot of new players to push it.

Ironically, it's just like back in the day before people traveled, when communities were largely independent and each developed their own metagame, except now it applies to the community as a whole. The metagame for Melee is now being driven by a small number of dedicated individuals, and a bunch of people who barely play. That's hardly the recipe for innovation.

Still, it's not like that means the game is dead. Every game in history has its high and low points. Every sport has its down years where you look back and say, man, there really weren't any great teams back then. It doesn't have to be at the top of the metagame to still be a good, enjoyable game.

 

[Cactuar]

@kishprime: no, it just makes the matches take 6 minutes instead of 2. The result is the same either way. I started going falco more and more to give them a little more incentive to like... not... run away...

 

[KishPrime]

Then my next question is: if it doesn't change the outcome, why is it so prevalent? One would think that players would avoid playing slow if it doesn't grant any significant advantage.

Truthfully, though, all 1v1 games are about minimizing your exposure to damage while maximizing your own damage. An all-offense game was never going to be a reality. I can't remember how many times I hammered into Jeff that he wasn't making people come to him enough back in the earliest days, and he was practically the campiest Fox around until Overswarm showed up. He kept running into Eddie's Ganon punches, though.

I'm going to play a hypothetical game now. What do you think would make it so that the amount of downtime is reduced? Smaller stages? More devastating combos (though I'm not sure how they could get much more devastating)? Shorter or longer time limits (depending on the player, either could work)?

 

[AOB]

They may very well be doing better playing defensively, even if it's not enough to win against a good player. And even if it's not helping at all, they do it because they think it helps.

 

[Skler]

Smaller stages would prevent the classic run away and hit with lasers camping that everybody knows and loves. Making the edge more dangerous would probably cut camping down a lot too, as it effectively makes stages smaller and makes controlling the center more important.

We can't do any of that stuff though.

I don't think camping is a problem right now. The best players aren't run away campers, they're just patient and do safe moves. There's no such thing as a run away Fox placing in the money at large tournaments.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Better ability to shield poke. Conceivably make it like high-low mixups where if you say do a jab then a dtilt that dtilt may actually HIT. Would actually reward aggression more. M2K is a run-away Fox.

 

[KishPrime]

Agreed, M2K has always played a run-away Fox.

Mix-ups would work, but they make the game even more intimidating to newcomers in my experience. For mix-ups to work, you have to have a bunch of them, otherwise every player can just learn how to defend the one or two that exist. When you make several for every character, you increase the amount of game knowledge required to compete at a base level exponentially.

I remember in Sirlin's book, he mentioned that when he picks up a new fighting game to play, the first thing he learns are the most complicated mix-up strings to defend, because those ensure victory against 95% of players. I like that Melee avoids that, for the most part, with its one-size-almost-fits-all shield. Yeah, there's still a mix-up game, but not nearly as complicated.

Smaller stages don't necessarily change the way people play, but it does reduce the margin for error. Running away may still be the best strategy, but it's a lot harder. Falco can play an amazing run-away game on Brinstar, but get stuck in the wrong position when the lava comes up and you pay for it.

I like the idea of increased shield reduction from hits and holding the shield. Another thing that could make running away less palatable is if you take increased damage and knockback when hit from underneath or behind. BlazBlue's system was interesting, where you'd take more damage if you were jumping away or dashing backwards significantly more than the opponent. Not sure if it would work with Smash controls.

 

[Skler]

I clearly don't watch enough M2K fox. One could also argue he isn't winning anymore (but still placing really high and I love you m2k). Most tournament winners are "throw out safe moves really close to your opponent and then punish their foolish attempts at retaliation" players from what I've seen.

 

[forward]

I remember in Sirlin's book, he mentioned that when he picks up a new fighting game to play, the first thing he learns are the most complicated mix-up strings to defend, because those ensure victory against 95% of players. I like that Melee avoids that, for the most part, with its one-size-almost-fits-all shield. Yeah, there's still a mix-up game, but not nearly as complicated.

This is going to be hard for me to explain, but aside from the obvious mix up of DI, saving/using jumps, teching, shield escaping, I would say that the mix up is inherent in the game itself. The same could be said about all fighters, I suppose, but perhaps because I understand smash so well that I see it this way. We mix up our approach with spacing, how we space is sometimes advanced (wavedashing, dash dancing), but it's really just the combinations of spaces that we control and mix up that give us our openings.

 

[KishPrime]

It's not that hard to explain. I agree with you, which is why I said there were enough mix-ups in the game already without adding a guard evade mix-up game. There is already a large enough amount of knowledge to know...

 

[forward]

Ah ok, I agree. The amount of knowledge there is to this game is pretty incredible.

 

[SwiftBass]

well this thread touches lots of thingies. The whole camping thingy really isnt a peeve of mine yet, because I am just really starting to understand the little parts of what it takes to get in someones face and pressure them/make great decisions in your favor.

I watched an old CF combo video by Tapion, some of you know it, it's called "Isai, are you watching?" I found it humorous that the same combos he pulled off back in 06? 05? Are still the same ones being shown in CF combo videos today. Up air knee is so old, it's boring.

QFT. Perhaps some of my hate for falcon is showing, but I still cannot understand the aurora of hype that surrounds CF. Everything he does is apparently amazing . If anything, some tech chases that some of the top guys are pulling off are impressive but thats about it as far as I am concerned. I cannot wait until i master the matchup and shut down everyone CF that I play.

*looks at cactuar*
=)



I agree with kishprime's point about knowledge. i feel like this game goes so fast in comparison to others at times that it is easier to get caught up in execution and technical ability(especially given a change in momentum). What I think is wonderful about the tech skill vs smart play thing is that even during top level matches I(and many others) can see some of the mental mistakes that players make. A great player to fully illustrate my point would be dashizwiz. given that he is one of the top players(and arguably one of the most technical), there are some definite flaws in his decision making.


There has been an obvious raise in the bar when it comes to the" tech skill prerequisite" for this game, which I think gives more of a negative connotation than it deserves at times. But hey its whatever I guess. this game is solid enough to "recover"

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I agree with kishprime's point about knowledge. i feel like this game goes so fast in comparison to others at times that it is easier to get caught up in execution and technical ability(especially given a change in momentum). What I think is wonderful about the tech skill vs smart play thing is that even during top level matches I(and many others) can see some of the mental mistakes that players make. A great player to fully illustrate my point would be dashizwiz. given that he is one of the top players(and arguably one of the most technical), there are some definite flaws in his decision making.

I believe that, if anything, the fast gameplay is conducive to smart play; the less able one is to react to things, the more important good reads become.

 

[Deleted member]

QFT. Perhaps some of my hate for falcon is showing, but I still cannot understand the aurora of hype that surrounds CF. Everything he does is apparently amazing . If anything, some tech chases that some of the top guys are pulling off are impressive but thats about it as far as I am concerned. I cannot wait until i master the matchup and shut down everyone CF that I play.

I'm pretty sure that everyone hates CF at this point. The general physics of his dash dance, survival DI/ CC grab from his weight, and the amount that the players themselves ***** about his character make him pretty loathsome.

For all of the hate in this thread, there's definitely some beauty in what our best players have given in what is obviously a very specific character mastery. I mean like, m2k marth, amsah sheik, dr pp falco, jman fox, armada peach, hbox jigglypuff, silent spectre falcon. not to meat ride, but IMO those players are definitely the most rewarding to watch, particularly against each other.

edit: watching videos now out of boredom. jesus christ how did i ever beat m2k's fox ever.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hated Falcon before it was cool.

 

[KishPrime]

I'm planning on going crazy with some video watching soon. Has anyone actually seen enough of Sastopher to compare Armada to him? Sastopher was getting like, 2nd and 3rd in national tournaments with Peach and barely ever gets credit for it. I know the tech skill level has changed, so I'm just curious.

 

[forward]

Yea, Sastopher was amazing. If you find some videos of him from those tournaments where he placed that high then please share them. I remember after Genesis that Peach was getting a lot of hype and discussion about moving up on the tier list or not, but I was always thinking through it all that "guys, this is nothing new. Peaches have been placing Top 4 for a long time now."

 

[KishPrime]

Sastopher is likely the most underrated player of all time. Those SKYPAL guys never really traveled enough to get the hype, though I think Sas was the only one that was ever elite. CauthonLuck might have been close for awhile. The only other possibility that I can think of is Recipherus.

Besides me of course.

 

[forward]

I think Blair (VarietyBarrage) was really really good. When I first played him at FC3 he was the only Fox that beat me at the tournament. Unfortunately I don't think he knew how to fight enough of the characters, hence losing to Wes in crew battles and not placing very high (I think) in bracket.

IMO WC players have always been underrated compared to EC players. I'm not sure why, but I've always speculated it was because the EC is more condensed, more good players per land. It's the WC fault too though. On the WC you don't have So Cal hyping up how good WA or AZ are, and neither AZ or WA really hype up CA or each other. On the EC people hype up players who are not from their state more often I believe.

 

[Mew2King]

being aggressive in friendlies is the best way my fox improves. That's why my fox is aggressive in friendlies. I understand more recently now why Mango plays so aggressive. That's why he got so good so fast. I think Mango makes the game fun for me, but Jigglypuff makes it boring for me. Seeing the highest level of play that Mango uses can be inspiring to watch, and looks very fun to be able to consistently pull off.

i used to be run away, but wait until you see me vs wobbles. I think running away is not my style anymore. When I am playing my best, I do the best by perfect aggro (as long as I am not making any mistakes, which is hard to do during Brawl but I managed sort of at Apex at least). Against armada I found he's defending himself a lot so running away is more valid :/ Same with Hbox... kinda boring... I don't really like playing like that.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Yea I think the only matches of you I watched at Apex were vs Hbox and vs Armada...and I saw the running-away style .

 

[KishPrime]

But that's what you want to do against Jigglypuff, and probably Peach too.

VarietyBarrage was good, but I didn't feel like he was nearly close to elite. We'll never know, though.

If your going by regional stereotypes, EC people are supposed be be more in-your-face confrontational. I think that's the simple explanation for why EC hypes itself better. Beyond their elites, Midwest had just as many good players, and I still think we were slightly deeper in that second tier. Most of Team Arlington never did that great at FCs, and they were hyped like crazy. We just never had an answer for Azen/M2K/KDJ/PC Chris.

 

[Deleted member]

so far as old school elite players go, when i started playing smash recipherus had already established himself as the best known player in the US. iirc the order for the best player at any given time went recipherus, azen, ken, pc, m2k, mango in that order?

 

[KishPrime]

Don't think Azen ever had that title. He was behind both Reciph and Ken at TG5. The torch actually passed from Reciph to Ken just prior to TG4, though NorCal was in denial for awhile that Ken was better. Unless you think TG6 put Azen ahead briefly.

Otherwise, you're right.

 

[Ignatius]

VarietyBarrage was good, but I didn't feel like he was nearly close to elite. We'll never know, though.

I played him in brackets, he was good but definitely not nearing elite. I still beat him.

But man were all of Skypal a blast to hang out with, they stayed at our house an extra day after FC, and it was so much fun. We played 3 games that ended with having to eat a spoonful of nasty, and one of their players(Rat?) lost 2 of the 3.

 

[KishPrime]

Rat was a tagalong from Oregon, from my memory. I only got to play a couple of SKYPALs, but it is one of my most prized victories that I beat Sas in the only friendly we played, friendly though it may be.

I played Variety in crews, took him to Dreamland. That was dumb and he beat me, but oddly I never thought he'd camp me out when I picked it. That was before I annoyed Jeff into camping right, so camping Fox took me by surprise. He might have been the one that withdrew sick...I think one of them did.

 

[KishPrime]

I thought Smashboards stopped these types of doubleposts...

 

[Deleted member]

Don't think Azen ever had that title. He was behind both Reciph and Ken at TG5. The torch actually passed from Reciph to Ken just prior to TG4, though NorCal was in denial for awhile that Ken was better. Unless you think TG6 put Azen ahead briefly.

Otherwise, you're right.

jeremy stopped playing for a span of a few months prior to ken's debut which left him as the best by default rather than taking it from him. whether or not it's true, azen was treated as if he was the best in the US for a brief span.

 

[KishPrime]

Azen was treated as if he was the best in the US by the East Coast for like 2 years, even after he lost to Ken.