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Things Pac-Man players need to stop/start doing

BSP

Smash Legend
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I'm still seeing a lot of (imo) bad habits when I watch Pac-Man players play. Here's a list of things I think his players need to start/stop doing in order to progress the character.

STOP


00: You've just landed a hit as Pac-Man, and instead of rushing after the reeling opponent and/or taking stage control, you remain where you are and charge fruit. Or even worse, you GIVE UP STAGE CONTROL to go mess with your hydrant or charge fruit.


I see a fundamental disconnection between Pac-Man players and the rest of the game. I don't see other character users willingly give up or not rush to take stage control, but I constantly see Pac-Man players opt for some goofy setup or fruit charging instead of establishing some sort of threatening presence.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=161

Don't mess with your hydrant after landing hits. Go and edgeguard or at least pressure the landing.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=273

Pac-Man goes for the setup here...that takes a while to set up. Why not instead go offstage and pressure Mario with Fair, especially considering he has no quick forward facing attack in the air? Instead mario gets back on stage for free while pac man is try to set something up, missed edgeguard right there.


https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=349

Pac-Man gets a nice grab and throws mario offstage. Instead of pressuring him and going for the edge guard like any top player would do, he lets mario back on for free essentially. Maybe he planned for the water push to but him back on near the ledge. Touche, but my response to that fact is that he's still stuck in the BF charge animation and has to spend frames in order to do something else. Heck, the resulting water pushed him so far that mario easily reversed the situation.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=499

Landed a hit and instead of taking stage control, opted to charge fruit and let Mario take it.

You need to realize that you are playing Pac-Man, and some of his specials are hydrant and fruit.
You are not playing fruit + hydrant with Pac-Man behind them. They are strong tools, but not so strong that they can carry your entire game. Your special moves aren't so good that you can throw the fundamentals of smash out of the window. Pac-Man or not, the fundamentals come first.

What are these fundamentals I'm talking about? Go watch grand finals matches at big tournaments like EVO, Big House, KTAR, etc. Let me make this easy and give some example sets:

Ally vs mkLeo, GFs of canada cup 2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI0rwsQaMOo
There is a not a single time in this set that you'll see Ally double jump while above Leo and proceed to charge FLUDD. You won't see him give up stage control or edgeguards to charge FLUDD. Ally understands that FLUDD is just one of Mario's tools and other fundamental concepts like edgeguarding, stage control, getting to the ground / out of a disadvantaged position, etc. are more important than always charging FLUDD.

Abadango vs KEN, WFs of TUS6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGrgGjviuck

Abadango
never expends his double jump while above KEN in order to charge shadow ball because he understands that getting out of disadvantage is more important than getting his shadow ball. Also notice that @3:41, he hits KEN, and runs to where KEN is going to land in order to apply pressure, then he charges when he realizes he has spare time. Shortly after Abadango grabs a rolling KEN because he is pressured, and nets a kill from it. A pac-man player would've probably let KEN land for free, and then get killed by some rage smash attack (https://youtu.be/jGRXYAPM-CI?t=287). The fundamentals come first!

At 4:12, you know what Abadango didn't do?
He didn't expend his double jump to charge shadow ball. He got to the ground!


0: When offstage, doing Double jump -> Fruit charge when not directly below the ledge, or double jump -> fruit charge while above the opponent.

I want people to learn the MU faster so they can KO pac man players for doing this. It's beyond bad, but I still see people do it, and the reason you get away with it is because people do not understand how limited Pac-Man is when he's charging. Doing this constantly shows that you don't understand neutral fundamentals well (See point 00).

good example(s) of why this is bad: https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=50

Pac-Man charges fruit when he needs to instead focus on landing, and promptly forces himself to take an action out of the charge animation (airdodge) that ultimately gets him punished.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=314

Pac-Man starts charging instead of getting to the ground, forcing himself to eat the fireball and subsequent damage. Stage Control > Fruit.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=373

If mario wouldn't have committed to the fireball, pac man could've died. Regardless, he still forced himself to recover low right there.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=504

Double jump fruit chage -> force himself to airdodge and go to the ledge. Dies before he can take control again.

https://youtu.be/a98yFevIJp8?t=539

The only thing that fruit charge accomplished was limiting pac man's options.

Another set example, zage vs Wadi from S@X 174: https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/v/98474461 ; look around 3:30:30


At 3:56:56 -> Zage gets strung offstage, and immediately double jumps -> charge fruit. Because of this,
he can't drift until he does something else. He airdodges out of the charge and drifts back in case Wadi tries to hit him, and is forced to power pellet from afar. What happens? Gets dunked.

At 3:57:36, Zage gets hit, and instead getting to the ground like Ally or Abadango, expends his double jump to charge fruit. Airdodges right into Wadi after and is fortunate not to eat a punish.

At 3:58:18, the first thing zage does instead of trying to get stage control is charge fruit? Result? Gets dash attacked and ends up offstage. What's he do once offstage? Double jump fruit charge, then airdodges towards Wadi yet again and is lucky to not get dunked again. Let me point out that Wadi kept charging shadow ball when Zage was charging, and
this is what I referring to when I say that "people don't understand how limited Pac-Man is when he's charging".

At 3:58:53, Zage goes for a fruit charge that doesn't get him directly punished, but it forces him to grab the ledge => giving up more stage control.

I think you're getting the idea. The last point I'll highlight is 4:01:01. Zage got hit, and charges fruit immediately, leaving himself completely open to pressure when wadi jumps out at him. Since he committed to the fruit charge instead of getting out of the disadvantaged position, he was forced to drift back. He power pellets from afar and gets dunked yet again. Hopefully you can see what I'm trying to illustrate.

When you double jump -> fruit charge, you've just given yourself to the opponent on a silver platter if they understand how Pac-Man works. Even if you've mastered the BF charge -> BF charge cancel, there's still a good amount of frames where your options are very limited. Charging bonus fruit is not worth putting yourself above the opponent or lingering offstage. An opponent who understands how limited you are will capatilize on this, and probably gimp you once you're forced to power pellet far from the stage.


1: Opponent is off stage, you are more than about a roll's distance from the ledge, charging fruit, and not setting up a hydrant trap or actively pressuring their return


I see this as letting the opponent back to the stage for free, and this is a huge problem as pac man because he struggles to secure KOs to begin with. He needs to press his advantages as hard as possible. The ledge needs to be one of the spots where Pac-Man goes in as hard as possible. Since he can create independent hitboxes that linger and KO (bouncing hydrant), he should be taking full advantage of this when people are on the ledge. The only reason pac man shouldn't be super close to the ledge pressuring it is if he's trying to read a burst movement option towards the stage.

I still see pac man players knock people offstage and instead of pressuring the ledge as hard as possible, they stay where they are and charge fruit. I see this only as a good choice if you have godlike spacing with your bells, and even then, I think a hydrant ledge trap is better because you can cover more options at once. Pressuring people at the ledge is a critical part of smash 4 at high level, and it's one area Pac-Man can excel in. Players need to push this more and focus less on Bonus Fruit.


2: Pac-Man is holding a bell right next to the opponent, who is blocking, and the pac-man player doesn't trampoline the player and instead goes for the hard read with the bell.

I get it. You want the KO, but this extremely difficult to pull off. If the player is smart, they will jump OoS and airdodge to get out of this situation. That's their jump squat + airdodge startup, so 8 frames of vulnerability in a general case; 7 for F4 jump squats. This is impossible to react to, and as I said, going for the bell is a hard read. Good luck landing it.

Instead, I think pac-man should take the trampoline hit, THEN try to hit them with the bell on their landing or something. If they keep hiding in shield, keep using the trampoline.

3: Opponent is holding Pac-Man's fruit, and Pac-Man does not use the trampoline to help control their ground movements, or stationary hydrant to push them towards the ledge.

When an opponent has your fruit and intends to keep it, they begin to play in a very obvious fashion. Most people will shield a lot and focus on avoiding you.

What I fail to see Pac-Man players utilize is trampoline to help combat this. If the player is focusing on holding your fruit, they're going to be defensive when you get close. Why not make things easier for yourself when trying to regain your fruit by placing a trampoline to limit their options some? Picture this scenario:

___opponent with fruit_____________center stage_____Pac-man_____

Go right past center stage and place a trampoline. If you can hit the opponent with it, great, but it doesn't really matter if you miss (variable danger depending on opponent obviously). This makes the situation:

__opponent______trampoline_____center_____Pac-Man

Now do something like Fair launch a hydrant at them, and jump over the trampoline to follow it. Now you have the trampoline covering some of the ground. If they go into it, they get forced airborne. Even if you miss your initial attempt to get close, them getting forced airborne will give you more time to catch them as you chase them down.

Another tool to consider in this situation is hydrant water. Remember that it is unblockable and will push opponents even if they shield. What do people like to do when they're holding Pac's fruit?

In this situation:

opponent w/fruit _____Hydrant_____Pac-Man

Pac-Man can easily get more stage control in this situation. Set the hydrant down and let the water come out, then see how the opponent reacts to it. Keep in mind since they're holding your fruit, they can't use tilts or smashes. Their means of launching the hydrant at you are diminished, so you don't have to worry about them launching it as much. If they do nothing or block the water, they'll get pushed towards the ledge giving them no ground to retreat to if they keep trying to run away from you. They could jump over the water, but then they've left the ground, and if you've primed the hydrant for a launch, you can now put them in a bad spot. If they run to counter the water push, there isn't much for you to capitalize on unfortunately, but most players won't think to do this while holding pac man's fruit.


4: Going to FD or DH

This one may be controversial, but I don't think these stages do as much for Pac-Man as the others do.

Trampoline is as unsafe as it will ever get on these two stages (moreso FD) because there are no reliable platforms available to break Pac-Man's fall. It's unsafe on hit vs a lot of characters on FD for a good bit of %.

Trampoline also loses defensive power when platforms aren't involved. When you put a trampoline below and next to a platform, but not directly under it so your opponent can't platform cancel off of it, it's nigh impossible for anyone to approach Pac-Man safely in that situation. The platform above Pac-Man protects him from falling aerials, and the trampoline forces people airborne. You don't get this setup power on FD or DH.

Considering worst case scenarios, FD and DH give the opponent the most room to run away from Pac-Man when they have his fruit. Consider the possibility of this happening when you pick this stage.


START

1: Using the trampoline on shielding opponents on platforms

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hby_IMpG4fU


We all know trampoline ignores shields, but we tend to forget that property when people are shielding above pac man on a platform. Remember that trampoline will beat shield as long as you place it near the opposing character's feet, so aim well and show them platforms are not safe. It's only 7%, but it's a free, low risk 7% that no one sees coming. If the opponent starts catching on and preemptively (and i mean early since trampoline will still catch them if they're close) roll, hit them with an aerial instead.

2: When holding the Key in hand, taking free Key hits as opposed to looking for shield breaks or fancy z drop stuff


I'll reference a match for this one. Tea vs Shuton from the japanese big house qualifier (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KMF37fNjY0). In game 1 of the set, Tea gets the key in his hand and does some fancy z drop stuff. This is around 2:17 in the video. He baits shuton into doing things, one of which I know includes Olimar's Nair. Instead of looking for the reaction (the nair was a huge commitment from shuton) and chucking the key at olimar for a free 15%, Tea didn't, ended getting hit for ~26% and getting his key stolen. Let me also point out that right before he got hit by olimar's Fsmash, he did a z drop hydrant launch at a terrible spot because it had zero chance to hit unless Shuton moved into it.

I'm all for instant launch hydrants with z drop Key because it is pretty good for forcing reactions. However, unless Pac-Man has a lead, he needs to hit the opponent to make progress, and that's difficult to do when your instant launch hydrants follow a set trajectory that's not hard to avoid.

What is hard to avoid is a key thrown from hand. It has low startup, travels fast, can be done at any time, even OoS, and is completely safe since fruit thrown from hand can't be picked up again. Keep in mind the option to just throw the key at people, especially if they're expecting you to go for fancy stuff. Use instant launch hydrants to get yourself into a range where your opponent can't react to the thrown key.

3: Using perfect pivots to perform reverse Utilts on approaching opponents


Pac-Man's utilt has a ridiculous disjoint above him, but it's hard to get under the opponent in order to utilize this. I'm speaking mostly from the perspective of this situation:

opponent_______trampoline_____Pac-Man

Most characters have to go airborne to get to Pac-Man in this situation. If Pac-Man players can master on reaction PP Utilt as an anti air, his defensive game would become that much stronger.


4: trampoline/hydrant sandwich technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1GkeeP02vM

This is a trick I still don't see any pac man players go for. I'm not going to lie: it's probably only going to work once on a smart player, but I have yet to have it not work once the first time I've tried it on someone. No one expects this, honestly.


5: Master Fruit Cancelling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9VD-TBgAck

I don't know what the pac man jargon has come to, but I'm referring to charging BF -> special cancel into another BF -> cancel that BF before pac man starts charging to return to a neutral state. This is important to master if you insist on air charging because it means that you don't have to do a special or airdodge once you commit to charging BF in the air. Less predictable = better.


6: When someone is trying to time Pac-Man out, actively avoiding conflict and giving Pac-Man time, adapt your style and abuse the time given to you.

Reference match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0HrJt1tw4

Pac-Man should not get timed out when the opponent gives him the entire stage to work with. Methods to combat safe play include:

-Use the trampoline repeatedly: Players going for timeouts play safe. When up against Pac-Man, this means abusing shield a lot because his grab is so weak. The only consistent answer Pac-Man has to this type of play is his trampoline. It's only 7% a hit, but you have to take the safe % because falling further behind is too risky. Once the opponent hits higher %s, employ the other strategies below to seal the deal. OR just keep hitting them with the trampoline if they insist on running up to you and blocking. It'll KO eventually.

- Getting the Key in your hand: Key thrown from hand can't be stolen/caught, giving Pac-Man a less risky method to secure KOs. Key from hand can be thrown OoS, allowing Pac-Man to punish a much larger amount of moves on block for a KO than he could otherwise. It also gives you access to instant launch hydrants, which can force the opponent to pick some action in order to avoid the hydrant that gets them hit with the key. At close range, no opponent should be able to react to pac man throwing the key. Slowly close the distance to get this point in order to scare your opponent into doing something. Keep in mind that fruits never stale, meaning spamming fruits if your opponent keeps letting you get them will let you regain a lead while still being able to KO. Pac-Man players should be comfortable with getting the key in their hand on every legal stage.

-Using delayed, off-screen hydrant launches to back up your KO attempts or net KOs themselves: Players bent on timing Pac-Man out tend to give him complete stage control. He can abuse this space/time by getting a fruit in his hand, and using it to launch his hydrant while neither player can see it. I recommend using the Apple, Bell, Galaxian, or Key to do this. After priming the hydrant (not necessary if using Key), stand on top of it and wait for a vertical water spurt. When the water comes, z drop the fruit. It will be shot up by the water and come back down a bit later, launching the hydrant in the direction Pac-Man was facing when he z dropped the fruit (assuming he didn't move before z dropping the fruit into the water), with the trajectory changing depending on which fruit is used. ( I say Fromundaman mention this first, so thanks to him for reminding me of it)

Although this is predictable and telegraphed, this still forces the opponent to do something in order to not die. The opponent can't see the hydrant being launched if Pac-Man closes the distance between them, meaning it's not as easy for them to avoid the incoming hydrant. The delayed launch also allows Pac-Man to take a greater risk for securing the KO knowing that his hydrant is coming to protect him.

If the opponent tries to jump over pac man, they risk running into the launched hydrant, which has a different trajectory depending on which fruit pac man used to launch it (no one will be ready for every launch, get creative).
Pac-Man players need to be familiar with how each fruit launches the hydrant from a z drop.

-Using delayed gushed Apple as a sweeping hitbox to KO people: When thrown up or down from pac man's hand, the apple will bounce ~11 times as long as it hit something from its first toss (throw it at the hydrant first). This is enough time for Pac-Man to get an apple in his hand, set a hydrant down, run off and throw the apple upwards, and have the apple come bouncing across the ground a bit later after the hydrant water pushes it.

The bouncing apple can catch people off guard, and much like the delayed hydrant launch, can serve as cover for Pac-Man to attempt a riskier KO option.


7. Fair -> Key

I believe I saw PEPESPAIN advocating this the most. Fair to Key is true on all of the cast at the right % range. Learn where this range is and enjoy your KO confirm.

However, this loses to block. Which people are inclined to do against Pac-Man. Find ways to convince them not to shield first.

Also pay attention to how people fly away from your Fair. If you Fair someone on the ground and they go into the untechable reel animation, that's a free KO with the Key. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i6-mldGJog)


8. Footstools


https://twitter.com/chibiT2169/status/735184642819526656?lang=en


https://twitter.com/chibiT2169/status/762318425498669056

Mastering the Key infinite would be ideal.

https://twitter.com/Teitoku_Admiral/status/666602543955361794

However, even if you can't or don't want to get the infinite down, a simple footstool -> z drop key -> hydrant does ~37% and will KO at high %.

An easier, non infinite variation of Tea's galaxian infinite that does good damage is (i'll see if I can get a video of it tonight):

Footstool -> z drop galaxian (hits them) -> Footstool -> FF late Nair for a lock -> charged Fsmash if close enough, or dash up charge Usmash / power pellet.

At the right %s, this can KO and isn't that hard to pull off. However, it doesn't work forever since Nair won't lock when the opponent gets ~100% or so.


Kamemushi has footstooled top level Sheik players at top level. There's no more room for excuses, Pac-Man players need to work on getting his footstool combos down.


9. Using Pac-Man's Dash Grab

I've been sleeping on this myself. Pac-Man's grab is awful, but he has a unique quirk: all variations of his grab have the same frame data. Couple this with how far Pac-Man moves when he goes for a dash grab and you can punish a lot of moves that you wouldn't think Pac-Man could punish with a grab.

Look here for reference: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1478544066

For any move that is around -12 or worse on shield drop, practice using buffered dash grab as a punish option against it, unless you can get dash up smash of course. If your timing is good enough, you can guaranteed punishes that would've otherwise required having a fruit in your hand. You need to practice and be spot on with these grab punishes though, because missing = eating a hard punish yourself. This is worth practicing because players often think they can get away with buttons on Pac-Man's shield because his grab is so bad.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



I'll keep updating this as I see fit. Pac-Man is still largely a gimmick character imo, but there's still some things his players could be doing to make him a bit more threatening.

Take a look at this playbook for more info:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QSKLquAYqc2NvkyDPruXWZmUZvv0zFijx5gSaxHdxzU/edit
 
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Nu~

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Another thing pacman players need to do is BF cancels. I'm not talking cancelling into another special, I mean cancelling the move all together so you can attack out of it.

This makes a fair approach that much safer because you can fruit cancel as you retreat and fast fall to the ground. This way you suffer no landing lag from fair.


People need to start abusing dtilt as well. It has a slight disjoint that beats out most brawler-like char's tilts like Mario's and Sheik's for instance. PP backwards into dtilt is awesome for spacing.



The last thing for now that I think more pacman mains should use that maaaay seem a bit strange is ducking and crawling more. You can duck or crawl right under rising sh aerials like Mario's Bair and diddy's fair for instance, then punish with a utilt, usmash, uair...etc depending on how your opponent reacts.
 
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dragontamer

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100% agreed with all points.

3: Using perfect pivots to perform reverse Utilts on approaching opponents
This sounds like a good application of perfect pivots.

But before going for that difficult maneuver, I think that lower-level tech should be mastered first. Dash-trot into Dash-dance stutter-step FSmash might be a "hard-read" against an opponent, but its one of the most effective ways in my experience of actually landing the glacially slow FSmash.

Between Melee-style dash-dance classic, Smash4 Extended Dash-trot turnarounds (Dash-animation -> Dash dance turnaround into Dash animation backwards), Dash-trot Stutter-step FSmash (Simple Dash animation, Dash-turnaround into Stutter-step FSmash), Dash->running attack (safe vs 7-frame grabbers. IE: not Mario, Shiek, or Ness), Dash->Trampoline, Dash->USmash, and yes... Dash->Grab even, mastery of the dash-animation is the easiest way to add variety to your grounded approach game.

No, this isn't as good as Capt. Falcon's or Little Mac's Dash shenanigans. But its still one of PacMan's better movement options IMO.

I've racked up some nice KOs with Dash-trot backwards into Dash-dance turnaround stutter-step FSmash (Hard-read the opponent's dash attack, then punish). And if I don't feel like the hard-read, I can always go into Dash-trot backwards into Dash-dance turnaround dash-attack or even just shield. Its a superior movement option compared to backwards roll.

Perfect Pivot UTilt does sound like one more great option to add to your movement (and IIRC, it can be done off of a dash-trot). But I find that Dash mastery is a far easier technique to learn with far more applicability. If you've already mastered the dash animation, feel free to move onto perfect pivots.
 
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verbatim

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But before going for that difficult maneuver, I think that lower-level tech should be mastered first. Dash-trot into Dash-dance stutter-step FSmash might be a "hard-read" against an opponent, but its one of the most effective ways in my experience of actually landing the glacially slow FSmash.
Do you have a recommended video/tutorial that uses the same phrasings as you do? From my experience a lot of people use different terms for ground movement options and it makes it really hard to figure out what I do and don't know how to do.
 

dragontamer

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Do you have a recommended video/tutorial that uses the same phrasings as you do? From my experience a lot of people use different terms for ground movement options and it makes it really hard to figure out what I do and don't know how to do.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LISSQnPoio0

There is dance trot, which is really useful.

Stutterstep fsmash is just doing a smash attack from that state. You need to delay the 'a' button about 2 frames or so after the dash. Timing is strict but that's why it's a good trick.

------------

EDIT: I looked at the video again, and it seems like they go into DSmash directly out of the fox-trot. Strange, that's not how I do it. Maybe it'd be easier to remove the stutter step... or maybe there'd be a micro-timing difference that would matter at high level play here?

Stutter step is when you "kara-cancel" a dash into an FSmash. I'll have to lab things out again... gahhh.
 
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PEPESPAIN

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I like this BSP, keep the good work mate!
 

dragontamer

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Kamemushi has footstooled top level Sheik players at top level. There's no more room for excuses, Pac-Man players need to work on getting his footstool combos down.
I'd love to see this footage if you can remember where it is. I see he's a Megaman player... but dunno exactly which match to look for.
 

BSP

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I'd love to see this footage if you can remember where it is. I see he's a Megaman player... but dunno exactly which match to look for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS46kkk6SBg

Kamemushi v Void from EVO 2016 was the clip the beefy smash doods used. Mr R is pretty dang good, so if KAmemushi can pull this off on him, like I said, no excuses.

Now, let's say people play to avoid this stuff. With Pac-Man, it's somewhat feasible, but at the same time not really if he's holding key if he can catch your landings with them.

Something else that dawned on me the other day: If you roll towards the ledge and throw the bell downwards, it will hit any character hanging on the ledge when it's touching the ground.
 
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dragontamer

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS46kkk6SBg

Kamemushi v Void from EVO 2016 was the clip the beefy smash doods used. Mr R is pretty dang good, so if KAmemushi can pull this off on him, like I said, no excuses.

Now, let's say people play to avoid this stuff. With Pac-Man, it's somewhat feasible, but at the same time not really if he's holding key if he can catch your landings with them.

Something else that dawned on me the other day: If you roll towards the ledge and throw the bell downwards, it will hit any character hanging on the ledge when it's touching the ground.
Thanks, I never understood the footstool mechanic. Beefy Smash Dudes always have good explanations though. Thanks for the tip.

Seeing that Megaman can execute a combo with just lol Metal Blade (although Pacman has nothing like Megaman's powerful UTilt), that gives hope for Pacman's fruit options. Realistically, Strawberry, Melon, and Galaxian are the fruit I get on-hand for z-dropping shennanigans. Key almost universally requires an off-stage setup, so I really don't want to cede the opponent that advantage.

A Z-Drop combo with Galaxian footstools would probably hurt a bit, especially if we can somehow get the Power-Pellet hit off of it.
 

BSP

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Thanks, I never understood the footstool mechanic. Beefy Smash Dudes always have good explanations though. Thanks for the tip.

Seeing that Megaman can execute a combo with just lol Metal Blade (although Pacman has nothing like Megaman's powerful UTilt), that gives hope for Pacman's fruit options. Realistically, Strawberry, Melon, and Galaxian are the fruit I get on-hand for z-dropping shennanigans. Key almost universally requires an off-stage setup, so I really don't want to cede the opponent that advantage.

A Z-Drop combo with Galaxian footstools would probably hurt a bit, especially if we can somehow get the Power-Pellet hit off of it.
Pac-Man doesn't have Mega Man's utilt, but he does have power pellet. While substantially weaker, he can confirm into it from halfway to the blastzone.
 

Neutricity

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I'm strongly think that getting footstools and fruit setups are something that the Pac-Meta needs to expand on. I'm working on getting the hang of it with Melon because it is easier to get than Key and it kills but I love the Galaxian setup a lot a lot so that next on my list to learn.
 

Fruit_Hax

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What are you guys punish footstools with? Also I found an easy way to land the footstool, use both jump buttons rather then the one twice. I agree footstools are a large part of the pacman meta.
 

Jalil

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What are you guys punish footstools with? Also I found an easy way to land the footstool, use both jump buttons rather then the one twice. I agree footstools are a large part of the pacman meta.
Here's a footstool combo with the galaxian. It kills later than the normal galaxian-->rethrow-->power pellet but I find it a lil easier to do and less situational.
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Here's another one involving the apple but it's less reliable because they can di the footstool from that height which means you'll have to follow their di.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
 
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Hxey

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I have some knowledge to drop as well.

-Another really good mixup on an opponent trying to time Pacman out is to put a hyrdrant down, runoff-fastfall behind it, then immediately start dashing into the hydrant. If timed properly, when the water launches, Pacman will slide through the hydrant and be dashing toward the enemy at high speed. Combined with an upsmash at high %, this can be a deadly and extremely hype mixup. You can also jump immediately after being launched and nair or fair. This should only be attempted when the opponent refuses to approach. It's a "5 seconds left on the clock" kind of decision, but a useful trick to know.

-At around the 90-110% range if you can sh/runoff fair the opponent off stage, you can true combo another fair and string as many as 5 or 6 altogether, pushing the opponent into the blastzone even!. This should be abused to punish bad recoveries. It's highly unlikely in that situation the opponent will DI away, since that would be going towards death. If he hasn't jumped over you after the third fair offstage, he's probably already gotten his jump stuffed. Once you've confirmed that, you can fair him as many times as you want but I usually stop short of the blast zone so I can make it back safely.

My favorite characters to do this to are Cloud, Mario, Little Mac, Ganon, Fox, I could list many. The point is, fair is an extremely powerful gimping tool in the % range just before fair>key is usually possible. That means you can KO earlier using this technique! Clearly characters with really good recoveries will be harder to gimp but a good majority of the cast is vulnerable to it. To set it up I like to throw something to bait an airdodge, then runoff fair>fair>fair>repeat until they escape or die. If you think they still have their jump, you can reverse side b upward to cover it. You can still make it back afterwards too. I hit it in tourney but it wasn't on stream sorry :'(

-The Bell can stage spike opponents hanging on the ledge of lipped stages if spaced so that it hits the backside of them. This is amazing for pressuring without committing yourself to a hydrant-spike or bair offstage or something.

What I like to do is hit the opponent offstage, immediately run over to the edge and bair>jab a hydrant to cover regular getup, jump, and getup attack. They should be grabbing onto the ledge at this point. As they do, perfect pivot back once and throw a bell. (I play bidou making this much easier but it's doable without it.) If done properly, the bell will be spaced perfectly to spike the opponent as their invincibility runs out. It's unlikely he'll tech since the launch timing varies based on % and he's very close to the stage the stage when being stunned. The only option he has to avoid the hyrant or the bell, is to roll. But Pacman is standing at the perfect spot to punish that safely. Any move you want.

That's all for now but I got more later. One of these days I'll make a video
 
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dragontamer

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At around the 90-110% range if you can sh/runoff fair the opponent off stage, you can true combo another fair and string as many as 5 or 6 altogether, pushing the opponent into the blastzone even!
The biggest trust combo I've done is Fair-Fair DJ Fair Nair. This is enough to gimp weak recoveries like Mario, Little Mac, Cloud

If a character has a weak vertical recovery, you may prefer Fair-Fair DJ Fair Fair, as that leaves them lower. Yoshi is more vulnerable to Fair Fair spam and seems to benefit from the Nair ender.

I'd bet that DK is also more vulnerable to Fair-Fair, but the huge priority on his Up-B makes this more of a theoretical question, as opposed to a practical one.
 
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Hxey

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I'll be adding to this thread occasionally. Thought of a few more things I never see Pacman players utilize.

-SH Fair without a fastfall auto cancels.
SH Bair and Uair can be fastfalled after the animation of the move is finished. It will auto cancel consistently if timed properly.

For Fair, I like to sh and throw a spaced one out at the opponent. If he tries to run in and punish landing, I drop a hydrant. If he tries to aerial you off the hydrant, hold shield. If he won't approach, I inch closer and closer until I'm in range to throw a key out of the auto cancel and surprise the opponent.

For Bair, I just sh and throw the move out from a decent distance, wait a bit, then fastfall to hit the floor and immediately jump and repeat. This can create a hitbox wall that's annoying to jump at or run towards. This will make people wary of approaching. If the opponent tries to catch your landing from an autocanceled Bair, reverse ftilt is really quick and usually wins me the exchange. If not, running is an option and so is Up B.

For Uair, this can be used to shark. Good practice is to just auto cancel Uair around battlefield until you get the timing.

-Another thing is, performing fullhop dair underneath a platform is pretty interesting. If done correctly, the dair will be cancelled and Pacman will land on the platform immediately with some lag. Seems like it could have it's uses in some scenarios. Double fullhop dair reaches the top platform too! Used at the right times, that could really throw an opponent off. It's a bit risky though, so use it wisely.

Like I said, I'll add more I just get tired of typing lol Hope this helps someone
 
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Hxey

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5uDWd2iJ4M&feature=youtu.be

I think more Pacman players need to explore the strategy I talk about in the beginning of the video. It saved me countless times during that set and allowed me to beat a player who's neutral game was far superior to mine. Without this gimmick, I would have lost, I'm sure.

A more skilled Pacman player than me could probably take this much further
 

BSP

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5uDWd2iJ4M&feature=youtu.be

I think more Pacman players need to explore the strategy I talk about in the beginning of the video. It saved me countless times during that set and allowed me to beat a player who's neutral game was far superior to mine. Without this gimmick, I would have lost, I'm sure.

A more skilled Pacman player than me could probably take this much further
What you call the "bunker" is why I think BF is Pac-Man's best stage. Platforms make trampoline so much stronger, it's insane, which is why one of my tips is to stop taking people to FD/DH.
 

Hxey

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I agree that BF is Pacman's best stage. As far as DH and FD go, idk I think they're alright for Pac. I have another strategy I call the tipi that works on flat stages. Not to mention, on DH you can sort of use the bush on the right side to build a bunker.

Anyway, if you guys are interested in me making a video talking about walling tactics I could get one done sometime soon. I wanted to a while ago but I wasn't sure if anyone would be interested in it.

It seems to me a lot of Pac players have taken the "z drop/hydrant" strategy on, but instead of that I've invested a lot of time into defensive tactics and ledge traps. I've got some good stuff
 
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verbatim

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Trip platform stages are amazing in general.

I think Dreamland is ultimately better than BF, since 90% of Pacman's kill options are off the top or edgeguarding, which the pineapple helps with.

One thing I've recently started doing is taking people who are clearly committed to the timeout (and faster than me) to Lylat, since it's the smallest legal stage. I only go to DH if I'm noticeably faster than my opponent.

Food for thought: Me getting timed out on BF and then having close matches on Lylat and Dreamland.
 
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Hxey

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Idk man, imo you got timed out because you played the MU incorrectly and made a lot of careless choices with your fruit. No disrespect intended of course, just giving my thoughts.

Next time you're on a platform stage, try using the trampoline to wall the opponent out. It should have been generally easy to keep that Metaknight away from you because he has no projectiles to pressure you behind the bunker. His only choice is to approach or wait. That's when you should charge a key and wait for your opportunity. Keep walling him out with the bunker to frustrate him and ultimately make him hyper aggressive. He'll be more likely to run into a key this way. For inexperienced players, waiting on top of a platform with a trampoline underneath it can lead to a free fsmash. Use this for surprise KOs. That can work for edgeguarding as well if the trampoline is placed to cover the edge of the stage. If done properly, an opponent on the ledge only has 3 options; hang on the ledge and wait for the trampoline to fade, jump, or do any other option and get sent up by the trampoline. Jump is punishable by various things, make your choice. Fsmash usually misses by a hair though, try usmash or bell. If they hit the trampoline and don't airdodge immediately, fsmash is guranteed. If the opponent airdidges every time he hits the trampoline, the airdodge can be punished.

Another thing I noticed is that you always launch the hydrant. Try walking it instead. Bair>Jab is extremely effective on hydrant because it lingers and forces the opponent to shield or attack the hydrant to nullify the hitbox. Walking the hydrant is especially potent for guarding the edge. It can cover get up attack, regular getup, and jump if spaced properly. It even covers ledge hang in most MUs if the opponent lingers too long. If they roll you can punish with dmsash or a pivot grab>bthrow and reset the situation until they're dead.

If that was too long, in a nutshell I'm saying
-Stop being so hasty with your fruit
-Use the trampoline to wall and trap more
-Walk the hydrant more both in neutral and to edge guard
 
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verbatim

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I think some of my decisions ended up having more to do with being frustrated than lack of knowledge (I usually walk the hydrant more when I have the lead or want space to charge fruit), but I don't see a good way to deal w/ MK once he gets the lead.

Against characters like Mario and Pikachu you can restrict their movement and catch them (even if they grab your fruit) with hydrant and trampoline, but a Meta Knight that platform camps can avoid most of that, especially considering using up b higher up in the air risks immediate death.



Edit:

Rewatching the set I see more of what you mean, particularly with me getting frustrated and repeating several habits offstage and with the hydrant. I need to work on getting better fruit in hand when the opponent is refusing to approach.
 
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BSP

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I'm going to update this in a bit with the "diagonal trampoline" technique. I think Pac-Men already know about it, but just to make sure, I'll make a point about it.

I haven't tested it with a buddy yet, but I think it'll be the difference between pa-man getting punished on hit or not from trampoline.

Edit: tested hitting cloud with trampoline in training mode while Cloud had 0% on him; 10/3/16 with a friend. He controlled Cloud, and we first tested on omega Wily.

I trampolined him from a full run and continued to hold the direction of my run after inputting the trampoline. Note: I did not jump cancel my trampoline. My friend knew which direction I was going and tried to punish me

Non Limit cloud never punished me on hit at 0% as long as I did the trampoline from a full run and kept holding the initial direction. If I did anything else, my friend could catch me and punish me. This includes (As far as I know) doing a jump cancelled trampoline in order to use the move out of an initial dash, because I don't think Pac-Man can get maximum retreat distance if he jump cancels the trampoline. I would be glad if someone found conflicting results.

Limit cloud gave some wonky results. On hit from a full run trampoline, he hit me maybe once or twice out of ~15 attempts. The punish was really tight, so I can't give a decisive statement on whether or not you are 100% safe if you do a full run trampoline. Regardless, Cloud shouldn't have limit at 0%, so this isn't that big of a deal..

On Battlefield, non limit cloud could inconsistently hit me even if I did a full run trampoline, but only if I hit him from center stage which forced me to land on a platform early. If your full run trampoline will let you dodge the platforms, the results are the same as FD.
 
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verbatim

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These aren't advanced combos but I do them a decent amount and I don't see other people doing them.

Water assisted trampoline OOS pressures shield well

One of the safest ways to get chip damage on shield smart opponents is to put down a trampoline while they're reasonably far away, landing in front of the hydrant facing them, then holding shield while the water is pushing you. If they throw out any attack or movement option towards you you can jc up b . The big advantage of this over normally fishing for up b OOS is that you're moving while in shield and a lot harder to punish, and that shield smart opponents are more likely to hold shield whenever they think a hydrant setup is coming.


Grab beats spotdodge, rolls

The Tractor beam's pulsating hitboxes make Pacman's grab the worst in the game, but they do add an interesting benefit, they're so slow that if someone spotdodges the grab, or rolls onto the stage as you go for a pivot grab. These are both edge cases, and they both have pretty serious risk if you fail relative to moderate gains (pivot grab on a roll-in can net a back throw kill), but it's essential to make the most out of Pacman's anti-shield options in order to convince your opponent not to shield everything.
 
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BSP

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Definitely agree with using hydrant water to push you while in shield in order to trampoline people. I do that from time to time, and it catches people off guard because they forget about the push that quickly. Once you do it once or twice, you can then start to mix it up when they start moving preemptively to avoid the trampoline.

I still wouldn't push many grabs though unless they're near guaranteed. Beating spotdodges with it is a bit too spacing dependent for my tastes and I'd rather trampoline them instead.
 

dragontamer

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Grab beats spotdodge, rolls

The Tractor beam's pulsating hitboxes make Pacman's grab the worst in the game, but they do add an interesting benefit, they're so slow that if someone spotdodges the grab, or rolls onto the stage as you go for a pivot grab. These are both edge cases, and they both have pretty serious risk if you fail relative to moderate gains (pivot grab on a roll-in can net a back throw kill), but it's essential to make the most out of Pacman's anti-shield options in order to convince your opponent not to shield everything.
The main issue is that Fox-Trot Dsmash is almost a superior option for punishing both spotdodges and rolls.

I see no reason to turn-around Grab when Fox-trot -> turnaround Dance Trot -> Dsmash / FSmash is an option (my goto for the baited / predicted ledge roll)

The main issue is practicing your movement to be entirely in the Fox-trot animation. I try not to ever be in the running state anymore, because fox-trots / dance trots provide far more flexibility on the ground. So there's a skill-gap / learning curve to using Fox-trots / turnaround dance trots in battle.

------------

Pacman's grab is still necessary for beating shields reliably, especially at low % where trampoline just isn't safe yet. The fact that Grab beats spotdodge OR shield is a benefit, but not really part of my gameplan. I only really grab when I'm expecting the opponent to shield. FSmash is a much better move if you're predicting the spot-dodge.
 
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verbatim

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I don't throw out grab expecting any option other than shield or a roll in, it's just a complimentary benefit if I guess wrong and they try and spotdodge OOS before the grab hits them.

Definitely going to be working on dash trotting and some trampoline stuff in the near future though.
 

BSP

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Pacman's grab is still necessary for beating shields reliably, especially at low % where trampoline just isn't safe yet. The fact that Grab beats spotdodge OR shield is a benefit, but not really part of my gameplan. I only really grab when I'm expecting the opponent to shield. FSmash is a much better move if you're predicting the spot-dodge.
Trampoline should be safe from a full run, assuming Pac-Man continues travelling in the initial direction he was going before the trampoline and you don't jump cancel it, at any %. Like I said in an earlier post, even limit cloud couldn't always catch me for the trampoline, so I'd have confidence in being safe if you're doing it from a run.
 
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Hxey

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Thank you for confirming that for me! I always felt like there were certain times when I could get away with Up B to escape more than other times! Running UpB... It should have been obvious
 

BSP

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Updated the OP yet again with examples from sets I picked around for. I know I sound nitpicky, but the issues I'm trying to highlight are serious and need to be eliminated.
 

Hxey

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I think something Pacman players need to start abusing is falling Nair. It's Pacman's least laggy aerial on landing, however we all choose to use rising Nair all the time and commit to it fully, instead of falling to the ground and abusing the 12 frames of lag that no other aerial offers us. If you fastfall and nair right before you hit the floor, it can get you a lot of mileage. It can true combo into a key on the entire cast, killing at the edge of the stage as early as 65% on midweights. Yes, at 65% if you read a regular ledge getup or punish a bad roll back, you can kill your opponent out of a single nair.

It can also true combo into jab3, flit, grab, and probably more stuff that I'm forgetting. Instead of fastfalling, you can also sh airdodge and nair right after the airdodge ends. If you don't think you can hit the nair, just land normally and you will be able to act immediately upon landing if you buffered the airdodge and didn't fast fall. You can also use sh airdodge>uair to mix it up and cover behind you.

Another thing I think we need to start doing is confirming into grabs more with the options we have available to us. We all know what happens when we miss a grab, but I've been doing some testing, as well as watching other Pacs play and I think the risk can be worth it if you play your cards right. On platforms, uthrow can put the opponent in a bad spot and even put them into a fair lock situation if they are heavy enough! We all know about dthrow. And fthrow can be used to throw the opponent of stage, bait the jump/airdodge, and punish! We need to experiment with ALL of our tools and not just write them off as too risky/not rewarding enough.

Some ways I like to confirm into grab are

-Falling Nair>Dash Grab works at low %, even before it causes tumble (10-39% on midweights). Try it. You need to hit the nair literally right as you're going to hit the floor, to minimize lag. If done properly, the opponent will slide away when you land the move, but you should be able to dash grab him just before he exits hit stun. At mid% (40-60ish) Nair will start to launch/tumble the opponent. It is possible to grab them out of the air before hitstun ends, but it's harder on some characters than others. I believe weight is the biggest factor because Nair causes horizontal knockback, and the further they fly away (i.e the lighter they are) the harder it will be to grab them. So for example, Mario can be grab confirmed from falling Nair at 0-39% with no rage or DI. Plus, at this % the only way he can DI that would be effective would be DI out, which dash grab still covers from a falling nair.

However, once tumble starts at 40% all the way until around 60%, Mario will hit the ground too quickly too be able to grab him. This will put him in a tech/no tech situation. I like to shield dash up in these scenarios because you have so many options from this point. If they miss the tech you can fair OoS and reset. If they tech, chase them. After 60% up until about 70% it is POSSIBLE but not PROBABLE that you can land and frame perfectly get the dash grab on Mario before he exits hitstun but it's more risky at this %. This is the % where you stop trying to confirm into grab with falling nair, and start confirming into key.

-(Glide Toss/Standing Toss) Cherry/Strawberry>Dash Grab is ridiculously easy to hit, can be done instantly out of shield without the glide toss, works from 0-90%+ on Mario with no DI, and is overall safe to attempt once you get the fruit in hand. There's less explanation for this one, it's just good. Very versatile setup.

-(Standing Toss) Galaga>Dash Grab is also true. I like this one on the more flat stages, as the tri platform can cockblock your Galaga. I have a sick little combo written down in my notes I call "Sinji's Combo" since he's the first I saw do it. Idk if you guys call it something else but that's what I call it.

It goes; Standing Toss Galaga>Dash Grab>Fthrow>Shuttle Loop Hit>Running JC Upsmash. Super Clean little 40% true combo that's sure to make the commentator drop his jaw. The running JC Upsmash and be mixed up with a variety of moves, so play around with it.

-Falling Up Air>Standing Grab. Idk if this one is true but I hit it enough to deem it reliable. It's a simple as hitting the uair after a fastfall and then pressing grab. Works well on Mario from 20% to around 45%. The higher the fallspeed of the opponent, the longer the setup will work.

-Water Slide Jab3>Grab is the final one I want to talk about. If you use the hydrants water, you can combo things from Jab3. Grab is included on the list. To set it up you'd just place a hydrant in the neutral, then runoff fastfall at the opponent and hold jab. As the third hit connects, the water will push you into the hitstunned opponent and you'll be able to act as you please. Utilt, Nair, Bair, Fair, Usmash and more can be used when grab is not possible or not the desired option.

And for those who don't know, Water Slide refers to using the hydrant's water to extend things. Water Sliding can also be called Slip n Sliding. :)

That's all from me for now, but please take some of this stuff into consideration. I believe it to be important.

Green = Low risk of missing
Light green = Slightly higher chance of missing, but still totally doable in my opinion.
Yellow = Probably not guaranteed but still possible. More risky because the possibility of missing can lead to big damage or even the stock being taken from you.
 
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Hxey

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I also wanted to share that falling uair should be used more to set up combos and kills. Falling Uair>Fair>Nair is true on the entire cast at varying %. Falling uair can also be true comboed into rising uair into double jump uair on many characters.

There's 2 guaranteed mid % setups right there. The higher the fall speed, the longer it works. First one is 25%, second one is 30%.

There are some cool strings too, like Fair>Falling Uair>Bell>JC Usmash. It's not true, but can work and is pretty low risk especially if you use crossup fair and hit with the reverse part of uair instead. In that case, you would just Breverse the bell to turn around and jump cancel usmash as usual. It's a 37% string that can even kill in some MUs. Another would be falling Uair>Utilt>Uair, which is true in some instances, and a string in other instances.

There are plenty more, just lab with Pac's falling Nair and his falling Uair. If you took anything from my two posts, it should be that.

(P.S. It's important to note that you can shift your momentum into your opponent as you land the falling Uair. Doing this will allow you to hit things that you would otherwise miss. I think it works because Pacman's entire frame kinda shifts upwards when he uses uair, allowing him to wiggle a little bit more before you hit the ground. Use this knowledge to hit the combos you want, when you want them. On the flip side, if you miss the falling uair, you should pull away from the opponent to maximize distance from him when you land. Uair has as much lag as Fair, so if you pull away in time, you should be able to roll, shield, or even throw out a jab or dtilt on landing to protect yourself,)
 
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BSP

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Then do it
Zeolightning and I talked about it on Discord a long while back. I don't know if he still plans on posting his thoughts, but he shared his thoughts with me.

I'm glad this thing has as many views as it does. I hope it has helped some pac-man players in some way/shape/form. The character isn't good per say, but his results could be better if his players executed better fundamental play.

Edit: I thought of another technique the other day, although it's just an application of basic stuff. If you're planning to trampoline someone and retreat back into the direction you ran from, it's so much smart to RAR the trampoline (of course, still jump cancel it) because Pac-Man won't waste any time drifting towards the initial direction you ran in.

The little things are absolutely critical with this character.
 
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