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TheChene's Toon Link Vids

MrPhox

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Here are some videos of me fighting my friend WarriorJ.
This is my youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/thechene

my videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_x7Q4oQDJQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW1_pe1pZec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnbOv5ET-zE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3KG-CyKpk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7lubheHtmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-V6WHzm5E


They all happened in one afternoon two days ago. I JUST got the ability to upload them.

I've seen the comments and responses to a lot of videos and there is no need for negativity here.

My understanding of brawl is finding a way to use and overcome camping. I call the distance "The Gap" and trying to overcome that gap and use that gap is really important to my style.

So I space myself very deliberately and make use of sequential pokes. The pokes are to elicit a reaction from my opponent. Whether defensive or offensive, I then react to that reaction.

The sequences change, some I repeat often because they are safe, but the riskier ones tend to give me more reward if I accomplish them. It works like rock-paper-scissors. I let them learn to expect certain follow-ups, then I change my sequence.

So there is a lot of poking and resetting.

Brawl may not be as exciting to watch as melee, but I feel like it levels the playing field and puts a larger emphasis on the player's ability to remember their opponents patterns. Some characters obviously have safer or more options. For those reasons tiers exist, but I still feel they are possible to be overcome for the most part.
 

Barge

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Request sasukebowser to put them on his video thread, that way we don't have 100 video threads per person.
 

VietGeek

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Request sasukebowser to put them on his video thread, that way we don't have 100 video threads per person.
The point of the video thread is to archive videos in a convenient location.

A video thread is created so that critiques and critical feedback are located in an organized, convenient location for both the thread starter and other users. A video thread filled w/ random critiques for a bunch of videos creates a mess.

More folders to organize files is better than one folder that contains everything and only looks organized cosmetically.

I'll take a look later however.

EDIT:

Video frame rate is choppy and makes it hard to look at.

Mario was camping the whole time in the 1st vid. If anything, you should make him approach, not reverse.

Also, mix up your follow-ups, maybe use bombs as an approach instead to mix things up. Instead of chasing Mario directly after he's high up w/ your sword, use bombs. This could create an opening for Uair if you can follow a airdodge baited by the bombs, or a Uair followed up by a bomb hitting him, or just following up with more bairs.

Just mix it up I guess.

Baiting him to AD the Bair from the end to a Dair was good, you could have just edgehogged though. ;P
 

Sosuke

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^
/lecture from Viet
lol stop being smart man. im not even kidding (ok, i is)

I got it up.

Nice TL. =)
I like the way you play.

EDIT:
Omfg I just noticed.
You did Zair->Up-B
Thats sick. I might start doing that sometimes.
 

Warrior_J

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Joined
Feb 5, 2008
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Mario was camping the whole time in the 1st vid. If anything, you should make him approach, not reverse.
P
Yeah well, you try fighting that Zair and see how often you approach.

I can't win unless I find ways to avoid it. And when TheChene drops it all the time, it becomes very treacherous when approaching him. So most of the time it degrades to feeble poking. But, I'm getting better VS it.
 

Sosuke

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WUT?

Ownage vid, viet must be jealous
Hes just trying to help dude.
Hes not saying the TL was bad.
Everyone has room for improvement.

Viets only jealous of emblem lord



...you know its true. =)
<3Viet
 

MrPhox

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The point of the video thread is to archive videos in a convenient location.

A video thread is created so that critiques and critical feedback are located in an organized, convenient location for both the thread starter and other users. A video thread filled w/ random critiques for a bunch of videos creates a mess.

More folders to organize files is better than one folder that contains everything and only looks organized cosmetically.

I'll take a look later however.

EDIT:

Video frame rate is choppy and makes it hard to look at.

Mario was camping the whole time in the 1st vid. If anything, you should make him approach, not reverse.

Also, mix up your follow-ups, maybe use bombs as an approach instead to mix things up. Instead of chasing Mario directly after he's high up w/ your sword, use bombs. This could create an opening for Uair if you can follow a airdodge baited by the bombs, or a Uair followed up by a bomb hitting him, or just following up with more bairs.

Just mix it up I guess.

Baiting him to AD the Bair from the end to a Dair was good, you could have just edgehogged though. ;P


In defense of WarriorJ, I've been away for the past 3-4 months learning some new tricks. He has a lot of learning to catch up on. Right now he's finding the fireball to be his first most obvious help. It may seem like just flinging fireballs in great numbers, but it's the result of his trial and error thus far.

Soon I think he'll figure it out though.
 

Jaro21

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there is no such thing as unnecessary Zairs... autocancel into ground = instant attack/shield/retreat but i shouldn't have to tell you that i mean you are a toon link main right?

Warrior J i feel for you man... i had to deal with that **** all summer lol
 

MrPhox

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There are unnecessary Zairs (i.e., ones that don't hit, or ones that are used when simply throwing projectiles would be better).
i will admit, that I do make mistakes. I'm sure there are instances of zair where i land too close or jump too high. Because I throw so many out there, i'm sure there will be mistakes.

but unnecessary zairs....? maybe rarely here and there as human error, but as a tactic in general, zair is an amazing move.

zairs that don't hit are important.

just like bombs that don't hit.

just like arrows that don't hit.

just like boomerangs that don't hit.



it's not about accuracy, it's about controlling and herding your opponent. The zair is a constant reminder for enemies to keep their distance.

zair has rediculous priority.
zair can be used at any point out of an airdodge.
zair autocancels. INSTANT LAG CANCEL.

Zair is faster than all of toon links projectiles.


I wish you could fight me and see how difficult zair is to handle.

I've been to ONE tournament. My lack of knowledge with the entire cast of smash brothers was my weakness. I did however beat omegawhitemage who played rob at mass madness. While I fought him Cort gave him advice on how to beat me. Supposedly they're both pretty good. Then I went on to fight vigilante, who said that fighting me was "scary". But I suicided and changed characters and lost. I don't think I'll be able to go this weekend to the next mass madness, but I do have confidence for future tournaments.



in my head people who criticize zair are just unaware of its usefulness.

criticize other qualities, that's fine, because I am weak in some other categories with toon link. But it is NOT zair. Zair is my specialty.
 

MrPhox

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there is no such thing as unnecessary Zairs... autocancel into ground = instant attack/shield/retreat but i shouldn't have to tell you that i mean you are a toon link main right?

Warrior J i feel for you man... i had to deal with that **** all summer lol
yeah and sometime this month you're coming up to visit so i can SPANK YOU
 

samizdat

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Very good stuff, chene. Easily some of the best TL vids out there. Only one minor suggestion: use FAir occasionally when doing a retreating SH. You can even FF it so the hitbox is right at ground level. For instance, at :44 in the first video, you SH, intending to zair, but he dashes below you. Throwing in an occasional FAir (and, of course, DIing it properly) can be a good option after establishing that zair space -- if they try to get in close and SH over the zair, you can do a floaty FAir, and if they try to dash in before the expected zair, you can FF that FAir.
 

VietGeek

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WUT?

Ownage vid, viet must be jealous
LOL, you do know this "getting extremely predictable approach" thing is plaguing a lot of TL users, not just Chene or me, but a few others too. The problem used to be "how to safely approach," now it's "how to approach effectively without being too predictable."

Also when the only complaint is to "mix it up," that means the player in question is already pretty good and simply needs to polish their playstyle.
 

MrPhox

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Very good stuff, chene. Easily some of the best TL vids out there. Only one minor suggestion: use FAir occasionally when doing a retreating SH. You can even FF it so the hitbox is right at ground level. For instance, at :44 in the first video, you SH, intending to zair, but he dashes below you. Throwing in an occasional FAir (and, of course, DIing it properly) can be a good option after establishing that zair space -- if they try to get in close and SH over the zair, you can do a floaty FAir, and if they try to dash in before the expected zair, you can FF that FAir.
i hear ya, good suggestions.

i can tell you know what you're talking about.

I'm trying to add things to diversify this "predictability" that vietgeek is talking about.
 

vanderzant

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Nice vids, you adapted and outplayed your mario friend more as the vids went on (I watched the first 3). Your playstyle is very controlling (and effective) and I'm keen to see how you go at your next tourney against other controlling opponents like MK ;).
 

Ancientkhaos

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I only watched the first Mario video so far, and I didn't think I saw one SHDA. Like Viet said, you should be the camper, and have him approach you. Maybe it's just me, but I also didn't see enough boomerang. But other than that, your swordplay is great, and the dair at the end was a cool photo finish. Keep it up.
 

MrPhox

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I only watched the first Mario video so far, and I didn't think I saw one SHDA. Like Viet said, you should be the camper, and have him approach you. Maybe it's just me, but I also didn't see enough boomerang. But other than that, your swordplay is great, and the dair at the end was a cool photo finish. Keep it up.
in the first vid i SHDA 30 seconds in. I didn't bother looking for another one because that doesn't really matter.

SHDA isn't some kind of axiom of toon link pwnage.

I do landing arrows more often. It's all accounted for.

I've already gone through that SHDA-rang-bomb-zair spam phase.
My style has evolved passed it.

Everybody says to camp with toon link because they don't understand how good his ability to hover just out of reach and safely poke for follow-ups.



I think a lot of people on here watch combo videos (which I think are pointless in brawl) and read ATs and think: "this is how toon link is SUPPOSED to be played"

they are all superficial rules.



I'm sorry, I didn't post for advice, I posted so you guys could learn from it.

I don't think that anybody is in the position to be giving me advice on superficial things like SHDA or criticizing my zair.

That just makes me think they're ignorant.

The TL videos up here aren't that impressive yet.

We have to start pushing philosophical boundaries about what toon link's roll is in a fight.

And perhaps many of you can't understand my more aggressive style because you aren't given the level of safety that I maintain with my highly developed zair.

So then i hear the same statement: "more spam"



sorry to sound cocky, but in this case being modest would be to spare my true opinion.
 

pwall

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There are unnecessary Zairs (i.e., ones that don't hit, or ones that are used when simply throwing projectiles would be better).


Chene, I can not wait to play you again.

Ging, his zair gives him perfect spacing and can combo with other moves if you are low damage. Nothing you can rly do about it. You may be able to beat him a few times here n there, but once this kid figures you out, its pretty much game over.
 

VietGeek

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Thechene, Toon Link can indeed go offensive. I'm not too good at camping, so I usually approach, but the thing is, no move is unbeatable. Zair is in no way the perfect move. It has flaws, one of them being that it MUST be autocanceled, therefore it has to done low on the ground, or else it will be laggy. Also, it has low start up frames compared to some moves like Marth's Fair and whatever, therefore it can be beat out if they get into your sword space.

Brawl is not a technical game. ATs do not matter too much. It is instead the selection of move choices, and assessment of choice, basically playing smart that wins the battle, along with the respective match-up of between the characters. You are right that SHDA isn't too good anymore.

You're also too late, others of us have already incorporated Zair into our games months ago. These videos simply review its use, not really 'teach' anything. Because you already taught us with your last thread here, months ago.

I have a video thread in my signature. Click it and watch videos from September (basically my prime due to school throwing me off).

Now tell me if people aren't doing enough Zairs, or that there are NO unnecessary Zairs. You probably cannot.

Because I:

1. Spam that Hookshot
2. Sometimes unnecessarily, and get punished.

Smarter players can punish you. Smarter players can see that you're delaying a shorthop attack for an autocancel Zair. It can become very one-dimensional, and therefore predictable and punishable.

You are not ignorant, but perhaps slightly arrogant, and behind the times slightly, or perhaps just severely underestimate the rest of the community's ability to read and learn. Your contribution to the board back in June or so for more Zair use was good, but now you sound arrogant, and I do not arrogant people.

Sorry, I have to blow off some steam too, because as I said, I can't stand arrogance. It ticks me off.
 

MrPhox

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Thechene, Toon Link can indeed go offensive. I'm not too good at camping, so I usually approach, but the thing is, no move is unbeatable. Zair is in no way the perfect move. It has flaws, one of them being that it MUST be autocanceled, therefore it has to done low on the ground, or else it will be laggy. Also, it has low start up frames compared to some moves like Marth's Fair and whatever, therefore it can be beat out if they get into your sword space.

Brawl is not a technical game. ATs do not matter too much. It is instead the selection of move choices, and assessment of choice, basically playing smart that wins the battle, along with the respective match-up of between the characters. You are right that SHDA isn't too good anymore.

You're also too late, others of us have already incorporated Zair into our games months ago. These videos simply review its use, not really 'teach' anything. Because you already taught us with your last thread here, months ago.

I have a video thread in my signature. Click it and watch videos from September (basically my prime due to school throwing me off).

Now tell me if people aren't doing enough Zairs, or that there are NO unnecessary Zairs. You probably cannot.

Because I:

1. Spam that Hookshot
2. Sometimes unnecessarily, and get punished.

Smarter players can punish you. Smarter players can see that you're delaying a shorthop attack for an autocancel Zair. It can become very one-dimensional, and therefore predictable and punishable.

You are not ignorant, but perhaps slightly arrogant, and behind the times slightly, or perhaps just severely underestimate the rest of the community's ability to read and learn. Your contribution to the board back in June or so for more Zair use was good, but now you sound arrogant, and I do not arrogant people.

Sorry, I have to blow off some steam too, because as I said, I can't stand arrogance. It ticks me off.


vietgeek, my opinion on the game is that you can't isolate moves. I thought the community was lacking in one realm of toon link's ability and i needed to over-emphasize it try and bring the balance.

I have videos on my Wii of using zair within the first month. I can upload them if you need to challenge me on that.

In those days nobody zair'd with link OR toon link.
I'm a veteran at this move and when people criticize it I think they just don't understand.

I waited to bring it to the boards at first because I was selfish about the information at the time.


as far as arrogance goes I saw that coming. but here online how do we quibble about who knows more?

If somebody can truly sense they are more developed than others are they to deny or hide that? Ofcourse there those who don't understand the value of what I do because they haven't done it as much as me. Then they will try to give me advice. I go and watch their videos and see less developed players. Their advice seems to come from a perspective that can't comprehend what I am doing. So am I to pretend that it is impossible for one person to have greater understanding of this game than another? I truly believe that the comments on my SHDA and Zair are uninformed.

However, I AM open to advice in other categories. I know my weaknesses and it is not SHDA and Zair.

I wish we could fight, you sound very intelligent and I know you would understand my zair if you felt it in action.

I came here to post to give people a taste of my toon link. Those videos are just a sliver of my fighting. They were just one person as one character.




When people disagree we can find many reasons to discredit eachother. You can discredit me and say I'm not as good and say that my arrogance blinds me. I'm just confident in the zair and i find the SHDA comments as irrelevant. I have fought experienced tourny-goers and they admit to the might of my zair. So shall I allow these comments of less understanding sit here in my thread challenging my ideas, which I not only believe are better because I'm arrogant and biased but because I have tested them against people. To what degree am I arrogant and to what degree am I just experienced and knowledgeable?

My arrogance is really irritation with the comments.


P.S.
You can know of a moves existence like zair, but that doesn't mean you understand its context in a fight. That is why I think people can learn from my videos. Now that they are starting to use it in a clumsy way, they can see how i incorporate it into my style. That is my aim.

You should check out some of my recent posts/thread on my user profile and you'll find that we probably have a lot of views in common.
 

VietGeek

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vietgeek, my opinion on the game is that you can't isolate moves. I thought the community was lacking in one realm of toon link's ability and i needed to over-emphasize it try and bring the balance.
The overall community has yet to put Zair to good use, but is slowly learning. Santi, Sasuke, Quivo, Lobos, myself, and others have added it to our play and your contribution of its property led to us finding a lot of set ups with it, making it very useful. As others see it used by multiple players, they will naturally see that it is effective. That is happening right now, and most of the Toon Link regulars religiously use the move and understand its importance.

I have videos on my Wii of using zair within the first month. I can upload them if you need to challenge me on that.
I wasn't challenging you on anything but the fact that you flaunted the fact that you contributed to TL's metagame with Zair to the point where I was irked by it. Like I said, I have something against arrogance, but not personally you nor your creditability..


I wish we could fight, you sound very intelligent and I know you would understand my zair if you felt it in action.
I'm always up for more knowledge to gain that would seem beneficial to me. It is unfortunate we are too far away from each other to have a favorable fight. Latency would prevent proper follow-ups from our beloved move. Either that or my connection is just terrible, lol.


My arrogance is really irritation with the comments.
Understandable. We as humans have only limited tolerance.


P.S.
You can know of a moves existence like zair, but that doesn't mean you understand its context in a fight. That is why I think people can learn from my videos. Now that they are starting to use it in a clumsy way, they can see how i incorporate it into my style. That is my aim.
You should check out some of my recent posts/thread on my user profile and you'll find that we probably have a lot of views in common.[/QUOTE]

If you take a look at my videos, you'll see how our playstyles are similar. Mind you I only second Toon Link so even I am ignorant in some aspects of his game. Certainly, the current hurdle I need to surpass is to enforce more stage control with him. As players, we always strive to improve in some way. Feel free to contact me through AIM/MSN, we could always talk about our strategies (or my lack of, lol) and whatnot.
 

Sosuke

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Sweet! Now we have two smart people on the Toon Link boards. =)

Don't hurt me. >___>
 

MrPhox

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If you take a look at my videos, you'll see how our playstyles are similar. Mind you I only second Toon Link so even I am ignorant in some aspects of his game. Certainly, the current hurdle I need to surpass is to enforce more stage control with him. As players, we always strive to improve in some way. Feel free to contact me through AIM/MSN, we could always talk about our strategies (or my lack of, lol) and whatnot.


we must see brawl as a diverse endeavor.

many of us build moves sequentially with focus on THE NEXT and THE NEXT, rather than looking back in reflection and thinking: "what COULD have been different?"

when you play to learn you play to discover and diversify.

when you play to win you put your vocabulary of moves in sequence, you do everything in your power to evaluate and continue.

both have a time and place. Learning builds a reservoir of possibilities, but playing to win is the only way to truly see how they are applied.



just put this thread up
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197281
 

MrPhox

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that's old, i posted that "combo" once in one of these threads. A better one is take out a bomb+zair+upB+throw bomb+usmash
"better"


haha

you can say LONGER...but better?
but as we extend our chains we tend to repeat ourselves in order to get larger numbers of hits. That is predictable.



The reason why the jump-cancelled up special works after my zair is because my opponent thinks i'm going to do a running upsmash.

holding a bomb would defeat that possibility.

You're talking about a whole different mind game of possibilities when you bring the bomb in.
You need to balance the possibility of the bomb with another possibility. Think of quantum physics. The move you use is like a particle. But the moves you COULD use is like a wave.
It's all probability. They don't know what's coming, they have to commit to a response that they think is more likely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

You could zair to bomb to attack, or zair to multi-hit attack to bomb.
That is a pair of possibilities in which defending one of the circumstances means leaving yourself open to the other.

It comes down to a numbers game.
 

QUIVO

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I used to think zair wasnt that great cause it doesnt have as much range as samus's or link's. Then one tournament I decided to use it a little more and realized that zair rapes.
 

prOAPC

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"better"
The reason why the jump-cancelled up special works after my zair is because my opponent thinks i'm going to do a running upsmash.

holding a bomb would defeat that possibility.
not exactly, if you have a bomb ir your hand, you can do some of this things
zair+throw bomb
zair+fsmash+throw bomb
zair+arrow/rang+throw bomb
etc....
that's why zair is so good, because all the possibilities it gives you. With or without a bomb you can follow zair almost with anything you want
 

MrPhox

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not exactly, if you have a bomb ir your hand, you can do some of this things
zair+throw bomb
zair+fsmash+throw bomb
zair+arrow/rang+throw bomb
etc....
that's why zair is so good, because all the possibilities it gives you. With or without a bomb you can follow zair almost with anything you want
i'm just trying to say that "better" is an extremely dangerous term when speaking about any kind of combo.

we must recognize them as different. Their differences allow them to be useful. If we label something better, we may give the impression that it should be used instead of another combo/move. When really it may only be used more often.

Different combos serve different purposes.

Some to initiate, some to finish, some to play with the enemy's mind and some to just rack up damage.


To discuss combos and their importance we must understand what the combos use is.

Take for example your combo you stated:

zair+arrow/rang+throw bomb

if you shoot an arrow after a zair, chances are you're dangerously close. If the zair hits a shield or is dodged that is bigtime punishment.

The zairs beauty comes in the safety you get by poking from a distance. A landed zair could be combo'd with other moves. And if you want to shoot an arrow after poking their shield you might consider a Nair floated away to a landing arrow.


In this game, virtually everytime you hit somebody they have a chance to escape. So when you say that "this + this +this" is a combo.

It is really a hypothetical string of moves.
At any point it can be escaped if your opponent has learned the combo already.


So to get more than one combo off before your opponent predicts you, you must find a way to change your combo to cover the various ways they will try to escape.


So when we are looking for the "next" move in our combos we must understand how they relate to the enemy's possible airdodges/DI/counter-attacks.

and interchange them that way. Instead of just looking for the next move in quick succession.

Your moves seem like they are the result of you just trying to make a long chain.

Because out of the ones you stated, once the enemy becomes comfortable, they'll see the zair and react by shielding the zair and immediately dodging. All the combos you posted could be defended by the same action. Which makes them all kind of repetitive/similar despite the different moves substituted in.

We must compile combos thinking "do i have all my grounds covered?"

and in that way, you'll see that longer combos aren't better combos. Especially when they get predictable.
 

Battlewoundz

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There are unnecessary Zairs (i.e., ones that don't hit, or ones that are used when simply throwing projectiles would be better).
Could just be using the Zairs as a mind game, trying to stop him from approaching.

I really really liked your Toon and I saw things that I know I have to work on alot. Zair to Up B was cool too, I agree with Sasuke.
 
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