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The Zelda We Deserve! (How Zelda should be in SSB5!)

mountain_tiger

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,444
Location
Dorset, UK
3DS FC
4441-8987-6303
For the past decade and a half, Zelda has had the damnable dishonour of being bottom tier in every single fighting game whose presence she has graced. Her play style plain and simply does not work the way it’s supposed to. Now, in Melee and Brawl they had the ‘excuse’ (I’m using that term lightly) that Sheik and Zelda were meant to compliment each other. Too bad that argument doesn’t really hold any water when Melee Sheik was one of the best characters in the game all on her own. Even in Brawl, where she’s not nearly so good, she’s a considerably more ‘complete’ character than Zelda has been in any Smash game so far.

In short, she’s been a ‘work in progress’… since 2001. And now that she and Sheik are fully, completely separate characters, there is absolutely NO excuse for that.

So in this thread, I would like to propose a new Zelda which might actually be able to reach the lofty ranks of *gasp* mid tier in the next iteration of Smash, whenever it may come. Admittedly this isn’t completely rebuilding her from the ground up, because then they may as well slap it on a brand new Legend of Zelda character entirely! But at any rate, there are nevertheless some quite considerable changes detailed here.

Let’s get to it!

Attributes
Weight: 85 --> 88

Nothing too drastic here – just a tad more bulk to give that extra little bit of survivability, whilst still keeping her a moderately lightweight character

Dash speed: 1.3 --> 1.43

Again, nothing drastic. Being a slow dasher is one of Zelda’s more minor problems, but having that extra bit of ground mobility can come in handy

Walk speed: 0.87 --> 0.95

Same reasoning as dash speed above.

Falling speed: 1.35 --> 1.3
Fast falling speed: 2.16 --> 2.34

By default, Zelda will fall very slightly slower (same speed as Samus), but her fast fall will be noticeably faster than before, allowing her to change her aerial momentum surprisingly quickly. This is mainly to act as a cherry on top of the cake to the following changes…

Air speed: 1.04 --> 1.1
Air acceleration: 0.055 --> 0.08

Zelda has always been at least slightly more adept at moving in mid-air than on the ground. These changes would help to further build on that. The air acceleration, combined with the fall speed changes mentioned above, would allow her to move more freely in mid-air, and the higher air speed would further enhance her momentum, and also be beneficial for recovery. This would help to compliment her new improved air game, as will be described in much more detail further down this page!

Roll dodges: Marginally increase distance gained when used

This is mainly to reflect Zelda’s defensive nature than anything else. The frames on her rolls (and sidestep and air dodge) aren’t really an issue.

Attacks

Ground attacks

Jab: IMO, the patch where they increased jab’s damage to 11% addressed the move in the wrong way. What is and always has been the problem is that it’s a JAB which takes ELEVEN FRAMES to start up. That’s just silly.

The solution is simple. Dial the damage back down to 6% like it was before, but make it much faster so that it starts up in 5 frames. The minimal end lag should remain, thereby making the move almost lagless on the whole, and a much more effective defensive tool. It also gives Zelda’s close range game a little more versatility.


Down tilt: One of Zelda’s better attacks, and one that doesn’t need much changing at all. It could do with very slightly more range, and some minor knockback alterations to make comboing with it even easier (a bit like how it was in Brawl, only not in the cheesy ‘down tilt lock’ sort of way), but otherwise this move is all good.


Forward tilt: Well, the main problem with this move was always THAT DAMN BLINDSPOT. Otherwise it’s a pretty solid attack, doubly so now that it starts up a little bit faster. All this move could do with besides that is a bit more shield pushback and also a small hitbox behind her at the end of its animation, which would deal 7% damage and have weak diagonal knockback. Her hand already moves towards her back anyway, so just tweak the animation a little, add a sourspot hitbox there and it’s good to go!


Up tilt: SSB4 definitely did the right thing by making it a low knockback combo move, especially in conjunction with her down tilt. Honestly, this doesn’t need any changes at all.


Dash attack: Well, this doesn’t really need any changes either. It’s about on par with most dash attacks utility-wise. Potentially the sourspot hitbox having weak vertical knockback to allow a small combo might be nice, but it’s not really needed…


Forward smash: A good move on the whole, but that multi-hit mechanic isn’t doing her any favours. I personally reckon that this move would function more effectively as a single-hit attack (same start-up and end lag frames) that does 16% damage uncharged. Knockback should remain unchanged. This allows it to retain most of the advantages forward smash has now, but with the added benefit of it being much more favourable on trades.


Up smash: Above all else, give it back the horizontal range it had in Brawl! The hitbox should also be extended above her slightly more so that it doesn’t get beaten out by aerials so easily. Otherwise, it does its job reasonably well.


Down smash: Like up smash, give it back the range it had in Brawl! As an otherwise solid move, that’s all that’s really needed here.


Grab: Having it be slightly slower than average is reasonable given its range, but its current start-up is a tad excessive. 8 frames for standing grabs and 9 frames for dash/pivot grabs should do nicely. Combined with the below changes, this would give Zelda an enviable grab game.


Back throw: This should have significantly increased knockback, such that it can KO Mario from the centre of Final Destination starting from 150%.


Up throw: This should also have significantly increased knockback, being able to KO Mario from 150% upwards.


Forward throw: If back throw and up throw are already available as kill throws, this doesn’t need to be one too. Instead, it should have very low base knockback, such that at very low percents (though only very low percents), they end up almost directly in front of her allowing her to get another hit in.


Down throw: With the changes to her aerial game (to be described soon!), this wouldn’t need any direct changes, as it would ultimately be great for set-ups.


Aerial attacks

Neutral aerial: This is the one aerial that, as of the most recent patches, SSB4 got right. With the above mentioned aerial mobility changes, neutral aerial would become even more potent as a result of that, and so no direct changes needed there.


Forward aerial: Now THIS is the move that I would change far more than any other. When you think about it, it’s really very unfair that in a game where characters only have twenty moves ANYWAY, that Zelda has borderline identical forward and back aerials. It becomes disgraceful when you remember this has been true for A DECADE AND A HALF. So with this in mind, some quite huge changes are in order.

As back aerial is the better of the two lightning kicks, forward aerial can be the one to be revamped completely. With this new forward air, the animation would start identically, but she would retract her leg much faster. This new attack would have 8 frames start-up, fairly small ending lag and 12 frames landing lag. Damage would be 10%, along with fairly weak knockback, such that it doesn’t start killing until 200%+. While not a kill move, combined with her new air mobility this would VASTLY help Zelda with approaching, and also allow another method of confronting mid-air opponents head-on without taking huge risks. It could also work well as an edgeguarding tool (Zelda’s long recovery coming in handy here too!)


Back aerial: As mentioned already, this can stay as Zelda’s ever-famous lightning kick. BUT (and this is quite a big but) it would be taking a lot of cues from the Melee version of the move. It would have a Melee-esque sweetspot, i.e. more generous than Brawl or SSB4 lightning kicks, and it would be dealing 7% damage if sourspotted and 17% damage if sweetspotted. Its frame data would be much like that of Melee too. It can retain the extended hitlag from Brawl onwards, but otherwise, this version of the lightning kick, with the mobility to make full use of it, would surely work wonders for her. Potentially it could even become as feared as Captain Falcon’s knee, you never know!


Up aerial: This one needs some drastic changes too, albeit not to the same extent as forward aerial. Instead, it could have a spinning animation where Zelda has her hands held upwards imbued with fire to start with, then followed by the powerful upwards blast we all know and love (sort of). Start up would be 9 frames, first two hits would deal 2% damage each, and then the blast an extra 9%. The first two hits would cover Zelda 35 degrees from vertical in each direction and have comparable horizontal range to her neutral aerial. Because of the extra cover provided, the kill power of the final blast would be significantly toned down, such that it kills a good 40-50% later than it does now. However, as it would now have uses outside of strictly killing, this would hopefully allow it to be a far more versatile move on the whole.


Down aerial: To be perfectly honest, one ‘extreme’ aerial is enough, so the ‘lightning kick’ properties of this attack would be removed in favour of it always doing 11% (with the electric effect still there because, well, why not?) and having weaker but still fairly powerful downwards knockback. Effectively, it would be a big brother to the Melee down air. This would make it a more consistently potent threat against recovering opponents, and not just those with poor recovery anyway. It could also, combined with the new forward aerial, help Zelda a little with shield pressure.


Special Attacks

Nayru’s Love: With the changes to the intangibility frames and whatnot, this special move is actually in a decent place right now. The only real change that Zelda could do with would be the option to ‘hold’ the shield in place by holding down the special button a la Fox’s Reflector. Besides that, it’s a situational but reasonable move.


Farore’s Wind: To be fair, this already got the biggest buff it could have thanks to the change in ledge grab mechanics! Farore’s Wind kills, as awesome as they are, aren’t a tactic that can be relied upon too much, and attempting to change that too much runs a huge risk of making it overpowered.

The move’s startup and end lag are in a ‘good place’ balance-wise given the move’s strengths – it needs some vulnerability there. The only improvement Farore’s could really do with is maintaining more horizontal momentum after it finishes – as it stands, it stops you dead in your tracks regardless of the direction it’s used from, and there’s no real good reason for that to be the case.


Din’s Fire: THIS move, on the other hand, needs a massive amount of reworking.

First things first, GET RID OF IT MAKING YOU HELPLESS WHEN USED IN MID-AIR. There is literally zero good reason for that property to have been there for any length of time, let alone THREE CONSECUTIVE GAMES.

After that, the move should have two key additions from how it functions currently:

1) The first addition is that as the fireball is travelling, it has numerous hitboxes every 1/6 of a second or so that deal 1% damage and tiny set knockback each, potentially leading into the more powerful blast afterwards.

2) Secondly and far more critically, if you press shield whilst the fireball is travelling, it will ‘lock’ in place (this deactivates the above mentioned 1% hitbox). From there, it will stay indefinitely until you press forward+B again. Doing so will cause the fireball to erupt. This can be done at any time provided you aren’t in cooldown, and the animation lasts for 18 frames before you can perform another action afterwards.

This would give Zelda all sorts of set-ups, traps and pressure possibilities, and (in my opinion, at least) make her a lot more interesting to use.


Phantom Slash: Given that this move has the quite huge disadvantage of not letting you play Sheik anymore, by all rights it should be damn well worth the while!

Removing the blindspot was a good start, but this move needs more – a lot more.

First of all, it needs a considerably faster start-up – for the uncharged version this can be 19 frames (10 frames minimum charge, 9 frames for the actual attack). Secondly, its endurance should be increased just slightly, such that it can take up to 17% damage (rather than 13% as currently). Thirdly, it needs to NOT COUNT AS A PROJECTILE, so that it can’t simply be reflected on reaction.

Most importantly of all, however, it should have the ability to STORE CHARGE. In simple terms, like with most charge moves if you press shield you will store any charging you’ve done up to that point for later use. This means you can store up a fully charged Phantom, and then keep it for when you need it. Given that this is a potentially highly overwhelming advantage, the total charge time would of course have to be extended to accommodate this – about the same amount of time as Samus’ Charge Shot should do quite nicely.

Being able to release it mid or full charge anytime you wish would make the move far more practical. It can be used as a long-range kill move when you get a good opening, and would enhance the edgeguarding possibilities no end.



What this will mean for Zelda (hopefully)

Ideally, these changes would help fit Zelda into the defensive archetype more effectively. The faster jab alone would already work as an effective ‘get away from me’ move, and changing forward smash to a single-hit attack would remove the unreliability of its multiple hits and make it a far bigger deterrent for approachers. Up smash being restored to Brawl range would also deter careless aerial approaches nicely. Then her faster grab and more effective throw game improves her out of shield game noticeably. All of this on top of Zelda’s current defensive capabilities would make her a strong wall of defense, at least in theory.

Furthermore, although her approach options would still be limited compared to the rest of the cast, she would no longer be totally helpless in this regard due to her improved air game. Her high air speed and new forward air would grant her at least one method of safely approaching her opponent, and her down air modifications would make it more consistent for shield pressure too.

Speaking of her air game, it would become very potent thanks to its easier to sweetspot, if slightly weaker, back aerial, and the still decent strength of her down aerial. This would combine nicely with the already good neutral aerial and new improved forward aerial. Up aerial would be predominantly a tool for harassing opponents above her, and possibly also for an alternative form of aerial protection. Her slightly slowed regular falling speed combined with a noticeably faster fast fall would also compliment the newfound mobility Zelda would have in the air.

Her grab being slightly slower than average is fine (emphasis on ‘slightly’), but it would compliment Zelda’s game plan pretty well if she had access to a couple of kill throws at higher percentages, improving her out-of-shield game and making Zelda’s grab something to truly fear (as things stand, Zelda’s grab game is really rather underwhelming).

The changes to her special moves in particular would mark out a whole new world of possibilities for Zelda. Din’s Fire being able to be placed on screen and exploded as and when you wish (think Snake’s C4) opens up all sorts of set-ups and possibilities for stage control and combos. For example, you could use it to deter them from going towards centre stage, catch them in a grab, throw them towards it, and combo into the blast. Alternatively, you could make life hell for characters with more limited recoveries by placing a flame offstage. It would be a highly unorthodox projectile, but potentially a very rewarding one.

Meanwhile, Phantom Slash would become a much more potent threat as well. Being able to stock full charge and release it when you want enhances its use as a ranged tool (a godsend against sword characters and the like), as a kill move, and as an edgeguarding tool. It might even come close to matching the utility of Sheik’s down special Bouncing Fish – you never know!

However, while considerably more powerful than before, Zelda would still have noticeable flaws that stop her being TOO overwhelming. Her ground mobility would still be on the slow side, and she would still have slower than normal attack speed on the whole, not having any moves faster than frame 5. Her tilts and enhanced air game would give her decent combo ability, but nothing too overwhelming. And, of course, she’d still be light and fairly easy to KO at lower percentages.


Closing Words

I’ll admit, it frustrates me that while a lot of the veterans have been buffed, improved or streamlined in some way, Zelda has been largely passed over on that front. Heck, even newly long-term members of the bottom tier crew, like Samus and Jigglypuff, have at least had a chance to shine at SOME POINT during their Smash career. Zelda has never had that outside of Sheik – ever. And surely this princess deserves just a little bit better than that...

The question is: how many people would want to play with this new revamped Zelda? I leave that to you lot to critique at your discretion. :p
 

MarineIris

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
38
I love the changes to Din's Fire. It's always been my favorite part of playing Zelda. Well, that and transforming. I notice that much of this boils down to reducing the number of frames on her attacks, so these changes are too simple to not have already happened. My questions are:

1. I remember Balanced Brawl buffing Nayru's Love into being able to slide across the ground. What do you think of that addition?

2. I'd like to have transformations back personally. What would you think of keying the transformation into the fourth redundant taunt button? (This could also work for Samus, of course.)
 

Lord Renning

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Messages
457
For the past decade and a half, Zelda has had the damnable dishonour of being bottom tier in every single fighting game whose presence she has graced. Her play style plain and simply does not work the way it’s supposed to. Now, in Melee and Brawl they had the ‘excuse’ (I’m using that term lightly) that Sheik and Zelda were meant to compliment each other. Too bad that argument doesn’t really hold any water when Melee Sheik was one of the best characters in the game all on her own. Even in Brawl, where she’s not nearly so good, she’s a considerably more ‘complete’ character than Zelda has been in any Smash game so far.

In short, she’s been a ‘work in progress’… since 2001. And now that she and Sheik are fully, completely separate characters, there is absolutely NO excuse for that.

So in this thread, I would like to propose a new Zelda which might actually be able to reach the lofty ranks of *gasp* mid tier in the next iteration of Smash, whenever it may come. Admittedly this isn’t completely rebuilding her from the ground up, because then they may as well slap it on a brand new Legend of Zelda character entirely! But at any rate, there are nevertheless some quite considerable changes detailed here.

Let’s get to it!

Attributes
Weight: 85 --> 88

Nothing too drastic here – just a tad more bulk to give that extra little bit of survivability, whilst still keeping her a moderately lightweight character

Dash speed: 1.3 --> 1.43

Again, nothing drastic. Being a slow dasher is one of Zelda’s more minor problems, but having that extra bit of ground mobility can come in handy

Walk speed: 0.87 --> 0.95

Same reasoning as dash speed above.

Falling speed: 1.35 --> 1.3
Fast falling speed: 2.16 --> 2.34

By default, Zelda will fall very slightly slower (same speed as Samus), but her fast fall will be noticeably faster than before, allowing her to change her aerial momentum surprisingly quickly. This is mainly to act as a cherry on top of the cake to the following changes…

Air speed: 1.04 --> 1.1
Air acceleration: 0.055 --> 0.08

Zelda has always been at least slightly more adept at moving in mid-air than on the ground. These changes would help to further build on that. The air acceleration, combined with the fall speed changes mentioned above, would allow her to move more freely in mid-air, and the higher air speed would further enhance her momentum, and also be beneficial for recovery. This would help to compliment her new improved air game, as will be described in much more detail further down this page!

Roll dodges: Marginally increase distance gained when used

This is mainly to reflect Zelda’s defensive nature than anything else. The frames on her rolls (and sidestep and air dodge) aren’t really an issue.

Attacks

Ground attacks

Jab: IMO, the patch where they increased jab’s damage to 11% addressed the move in the wrong way. What is and always has been the problem is that it’s a JAB which takes ELEVEN FRAMES to start up. That’s just silly.

The solution is simple. Dial the damage back down to 6% like it was before, but make it much faster so that it starts up in 5 frames. The minimal end lag should remain, thereby making the move almost lagless on the whole, and a much more effective defensive tool. It also gives Zelda’s close range game a little more versatility.


Down tilt: One of Zelda’s better attacks, and one that doesn’t need much changing at all. It could do with very slightly more range, and some minor knockback alterations to make comboing with it even easier (a bit like how it was in Brawl, only not in the cheesy ‘down tilt lock’ sort of way), but otherwise this move is all good.


Forward tilt: Well, the main problem with this move was always THAT DAMN BLINDSPOT. Otherwise it’s a pretty solid attack, doubly so now that it starts up a little bit faster. All this move could do with besides that is a bit more shield pushback and also a small hitbox behind her at the end of its animation, which would deal 7% damage and have weak diagonal knockback. Her hand already moves towards her back anyway, so just tweak the animation a little, add a sourspot hitbox there and it’s good to go!


Up tilt: SSB4 definitely did the right thing by making it a low knockback combo move, especially in conjunction with her down tilt. Honestly, this doesn’t need any changes at all.


Dash attack: Well, this doesn’t really need any changes either. It’s about on par with most dash attacks utility-wise. Potentially the sourspot hitbox having weak vertical knockback to allow a small combo might be nice, but it’s not really needed…


Forward smash: A good move on the whole, but that multi-hit mechanic isn’t doing her any favours. I personally reckon that this move would function more effectively as a single-hit attack (same start-up and end lag frames) that does 16% damage uncharged. Knockback should remain unchanged. This allows it to retain most of the advantages forward smash has now, but with the added benefit of it being much more favourable on trades.


Up smash: Above all else, give it back the horizontal range it had in Brawl! The hitbox should also be extended above her slightly more so that it doesn’t get beaten out by aerials so easily. Otherwise, it does its job reasonably well.


Down smash: Like up smash, give it back the range it had in Brawl! As an otherwise solid move, that’s all that’s really needed here.


Grab: Having it be slightly slower than average is reasonable given its range, but its current start-up is a tad excessive. 8 frames for standing grabs and 9 frames for dash/pivot grabs should do nicely. Combined with the below changes, this would give Zelda an enviable grab game.


Back throw: This should have significantly increased knockback, such that it can KO Mario from the centre of Final Destination starting from 150%.


Up throw: This should also have significantly increased knockback, being able to KO Mario from 150% upwards.


Forward throw: If back throw and up throw are already available as kill throws, this doesn’t need to be one too. Instead, it should have very low base knockback, such that at very low percents (though only very low percents), they end up almost directly in front of her allowing her to get another hit in.


Down throw: With the changes to her aerial game (to be described soon!), this wouldn’t need any direct changes, as it would ultimately be great for set-ups.


Aerial attacks

Neutral aerial: This is the one aerial that, as of the most recent patches, SSB4 got right. With the above mentioned aerial mobility changes, neutral aerial would become even more potent as a result of that, and so no direct changes needed there.


Forward aerial: Now THIS is the move that I would change far more than any other. When you think about it, it’s really very unfair that in a game where characters only have twenty moves ANYWAY, that Zelda has borderline identical forward and back aerials. It becomes disgraceful when you remember this has been true for A DECADE AND A HALF. So with this in mind, some quite huge changes are in order.

As back aerial is the better of the two lightning kicks, forward aerial can be the one to be revamped completely. With this new forward air, the animation would start identically, but she would retract her leg much faster. This new attack would have 8 frames start-up, fairly small ending lag and 12 frames landing lag. Damage would be 10%, along with fairly weak knockback, such that it doesn’t start killing until 200%+. While not a kill move, combined with her new air mobility this would VASTLY help Zelda with approaching, and also allow another method of confronting mid-air opponents head-on without taking huge risks. It could also work well as an edgeguarding tool (Zelda’s long recovery coming in handy here too!)


Back aerial: As mentioned already, this can stay as Zelda’s ever-famous lightning kick. BUT (and this is quite a big but) it would be taking a lot of cues from the Melee version of the move. It would have a Melee-esque sweetspot, i.e. more generous than Brawl or SSB4 lightning kicks, and it would be dealing 7% damage if sourspotted and 17% damage if sweetspotted. Its frame data would be much like that of Melee too. It can retain the extended hitlag from Brawl onwards, but otherwise, this version of the lightning kick, with the mobility to make full use of it, would surely work wonders for her. Potentially it could even become as feared as Captain Falcon’s knee, you never know!


Up aerial: This one needs some drastic changes too, albeit not to the same extent as forward aerial. Instead, it could have a spinning animation where Zelda has her hands held upwards imbued with fire to start with, then followed by the powerful upwards blast we all know and love (sort of). Start up would be 9 frames, first two hits would deal 2% damage each, and then the blast an extra 9%. The first two hits would cover Zelda 35 degrees from vertical in each direction and have comparable horizontal range to her neutral aerial. Because of the extra cover provided, the kill power of the final blast would be significantly toned down, such that it kills a good 40-50% later than it does now. However, as it would now have uses outside of strictly killing, this would hopefully allow it to be a far more versatile move on the whole.


Down aerial: To be perfectly honest, one ‘extreme’ aerial is enough, so the ‘lightning kick’ properties of this attack would be removed in favour of it always doing 11% (with the electric effect still there because, well, why not?) and having weaker but still fairly powerful downwards knockback. Effectively, it would be a big brother to the Melee down air. This would make it a more consistently potent threat against recovering opponents, and not just those with poor recovery anyway. It could also, combined with the new forward aerial, help Zelda a little with shield pressure.


Special Attacks

Nayru’s Love: With the changes to the intangibility frames and whatnot, this special move is actually in a decent place right now. The only real change that Zelda could do with would be the option to ‘hold’ the shield in place by holding down the special button a la Fox’s Reflector. Besides that, it’s a situational but reasonable move.


Farore’s Wind: To be fair, this already got the biggest buff it could have thanks to the change in ledge grab mechanics! Farore’s Wind kills, as awesome as they are, aren’t a tactic that can be relied upon too much, and attempting to change that too much runs a huge risk of making it overpowered.

The move’s startup and end lag are in a ‘good place’ balance-wise given the move’s strengths – it needs some vulnerability there. The only improvement Farore’s could really do with is maintaining more horizontal momentum after it finishes – as it stands, it stops you dead in your tracks regardless of the direction it’s used from, and there’s no real good reason for that to be the case.


Din’s Fire: THIS move, on the other hand, needs a massive amount of reworking.

First things first, GET RID OF IT MAKING YOU HELPLESS WHEN USED IN MID-AIR. There is literally zero good reason for that property to have been there for any length of time, let alone THREE CONSECUTIVE GAMES.

After that, the move should have two key additions from how it functions currently:

1) The first addition is that as the fireball is travelling, it has numerous hitboxes every 1/6 of a second or so that deal 1% damage and tiny set knockback each, potentially leading into the more powerful blast afterwards.

2) Secondly and far more critically, if you press shield whilst the fireball is travelling, it will ‘lock’ in place (this deactivates the above mentioned 1% hitbox). From there, it will stay indefinitely until you press forward+B again. Doing so will cause the fireball to erupt. This can be done at any time provided you aren’t in cooldown, and the animation lasts for 18 frames before you can perform another action afterwards.

This would give Zelda all sorts of set-ups, traps and pressure possibilities, and (in my opinion, at least) make her a lot more interesting to use.


Phantom Slash: Given that this move has the quite huge disadvantage of not letting you play Sheik anymore, by all rights it should be damn well worth the while!

Removing the blindspot was a good start, but this move needs more – a lot more.

First of all, it needs a considerably faster start-up – for the uncharged version this can be 19 frames (10 frames minimum charge, 9 frames for the actual attack). Secondly, its endurance should be increased just slightly, such that it can take up to 17% damage (rather than 13% as currently). Thirdly, it needs to NOT COUNT AS A PROJECTILE, so that it can’t simply be reflected on reaction.

Most importantly of all, however, it should have the ability to STORE CHARGE. In simple terms, like with most charge moves if you press shield you will store any charging you’ve done up to that point for later use. This means you can store up a fully charged Phantom, and then keep it for when you need it. Given that this is a potentially highly overwhelming advantage, the total charge time would of course have to be extended to accommodate this – about the same amount of time as Samus’ Charge Shot should do quite nicely.

Being able to release it mid or full charge anytime you wish would make the move far more practical. It can be used as a long-range kill move when you get a good opening, and would enhance the edgeguarding possibilities no end.



What this will mean for Zelda (hopefully)

Ideally, these changes would help fit Zelda into the defensive archetype more effectively. The faster jab alone would already work as an effective ‘get away from me’ move, and changing forward smash to a single-hit attack would remove the unreliability of its multiple hits and make it a far bigger deterrent for approachers. Up smash being restored to Brawl range would also deter careless aerial approaches nicely. Then her faster grab and more effective throw game improves her out of shield game noticeably. All of this on top of Zelda’s current defensive capabilities would make her a strong wall of defense, at least in theory.

Furthermore, although her approach options would still be limited compared to the rest of the cast, she would no longer be totally helpless in this regard due to her improved air game. Her high air speed and new forward air would grant her at least one method of safely approaching her opponent, and her down air modifications would make it more consistent for shield pressure too.

Speaking of her air game, it would become very potent thanks to its easier to sweetspot, if slightly weaker, back aerial, and the still decent strength of her down aerial. This would combine nicely with the already good neutral aerial and new improved forward aerial. Up aerial would be predominantly a tool for harassing opponents above her, and possibly also for an alternative form of aerial protection. Her slightly slowed regular falling speed combined with a noticeably faster fast fall would also compliment the newfound mobility Zelda would have in the air.

Her grab being slightly slower than average is fine (emphasis on ‘slightly’), but it would compliment Zelda’s game plan pretty well if she had access to a couple of kill throws at higher percentages, improving her out-of-shield game and making Zelda’s grab something to truly fear (as things stand, Zelda’s grab game is really rather underwhelming).

The changes to her special moves in particular would mark out a whole new world of possibilities for Zelda. Din’s Fire being able to be placed on screen and exploded as and when you wish (think Snake’s C4) opens up all sorts of set-ups and possibilities for stage control and combos. For example, you could use it to deter them from going towards centre stage, catch them in a grab, throw them towards it, and combo into the blast. Alternatively, you could make life hell for characters with more limited recoveries by placing a flame offstage. It would be a highly unorthodox projectile, but potentially a very rewarding one.

Meanwhile, Phantom Slash would become a much more potent threat as well. Being able to stock full charge and release it when you want enhances its use as a ranged tool (a godsend against sword characters and the like), as a kill move, and as an edgeguarding tool. It might even come close to matching the utility of Sheik’s down special Bouncing Fish – you never know!

However, while considerably more powerful than before, Zelda would still have noticeable flaws that stop her being TOO overwhelming. Her ground mobility would still be on the slow side, and she would still have slower than normal attack speed on the whole, not having any moves faster than frame 5. Her tilts and enhanced air game would give her decent combo ability, but nothing too overwhelming. And, of course, she’d still be light and fairly easy to KO at lower percentages.


Closing Words

I’ll admit, it frustrates me that while a lot of the veterans have been buffed, improved or streamlined in some way, Zelda has been largely passed over on that front. Heck, even newly long-term members of the bottom tier crew, like Samus and Jigglypuff, have at least had a chance to shine at SOME POINT during their Smash career. Zelda has never had that outside of Sheik – ever. And surely this princess deserves just a little bit better than that...

The question is: how many people would want to play with this new revamped Zelda? I leave that to you lot to critique at your discretion. :p
The only aspects I disagree with are the down air, up air, and forward air, (somewhat) and the trail for Din's Fire, because they skew the risk/reward aspect of Zelda a bit too much. (It does need to be skewed though.)

With the combo and grab game you've outlined, along with her movement buffs and changes to ground moves, it would be perfect for Zelda to transition from the ground to the air, and her attacks, and I think being able to close out stocks is much better and truer to Zelda than multiple aerial pokes. Her up air is fun, and with the airspeed increase it wouldn't need better combo potential or a DIable multihit. You can harass people above with big damage knockout explosions, and down throw to up air remains a closer. With the change to Din's fire and phantom, her dair off-stage wouldn't only be useful against people with poor recoveries, and I think precision edge-guarding is a crucial aspect of Zelda's character worth preserving.

Din's fire doesn't need the trail, because it's already a transcendent projectile, and the other changes you've made make it fantastic as a combo, zoning, and mix-up attack. To have a fire trail on top of it is a little much and at odds with the other aspects. It also gives away the projectile's path in doubles, and would interrupt your team mate, which is part of what makes it fun and useful in free for all and team settings.

I think you're going in the right direction with Fair, but went too far into Palutena fairitory. Fair should be the middle ground version of bair. Safe on shield, with a less rewarding critical. Say, 8-10% for a sour spot, and 13,15, or 17 for a sweetspot, while keeping the sweetspot small or adjusted in size according to the reward. (I think 8/15 with the current or 10/13 with a larger sweetspot would be good) Bair should be your kill move, with a 4-6% sour spot, and a 20-23% sweetspot (or buffed BKB/KBG), as it's the cross-up with up air for the down throw kill confirm. That would get a larger sweetspot. Fair would become similar to Marth's tipper fair, where it's a safe poke and damage racking tool that can kill with precision near the ledge around 80, and more reliably after 100, while bair is that sweet satisfying Zelda kick we all love to land that kills anywhere around 80 if you land it.

Kill throws are Bae. You shouldn't live to 150 vs Zelda, and if you do it's fair to throw people out of there. With a kill throw set up at 80+ we don't need a Mewtwo tier up throw, though with enough rage our upthrow would become one.

Aside from that, I'd love to play as this Zelda.
 

Lord Dio

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While I do agree that changes need to be made to her smashes, I'm fine with both bair and fair being lightning kicks, as long as they are decently good moves. As for Nayru's Love, I'd like it to change to be similar to Palutena's Reflect or like Falco's, a reflect that doesn't surround the user. I would also greatly appreciate it if Zelda had other notable ways to kill besides Farore's Wind. Iirc, when you use DF in the air, it kinda pulls Zelda along a foot or two, if they made it so she could ride the DF like a Lloid, that would be cool to see.

As for the Phantom......A few days ago I came to the realization that there are a good amount of characters in Sm4sh who have a bad Down B because the risk of using it outweighs the reward. Zelda is one of those characters, because as soon as you let go of the button, the Phantom immediately comes out. Being able to store it would increase how good it is because it would become a move good for spacing that's also hard to read.

I also dislike that Zelda and Sheik have the same Final Smash. Zelda using light arrows makes sense. Sheik doing it, does not.
 

TurboLink

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Why do people post stuff like this when it's virtually impossible for all this to happen?
 
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Lord Renning

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I think it's a good thought experiment, and ideas like this help people develop their understanding of the character and game. Their writing was also a lot nicer to read than many of the essays I've suffered.
 

ZombieBran

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What I want Zelda to really have is a magic sword and useful projectiles
if only
if only there was a sassy sorceress with those attributes in Smash :4robinf:

Why do people post stuff like this when it's virtually impossible for all this to happen?
fun fact, threads like these are actually not trying to prophesy anything
 
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