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~ The Wolf Matchup Center! Now taking votes for next matchup, check the BBR MU chart!

Discussion in 'Wolf' started by Ishiey, Sep 17, 2010.

  1. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    THE WOLF MATCHUP CENTER

    [​IMG]

    Current Exports:
    :rob: (revisiting)




    Old Exports (that still need to be updated because I'm lazy...:
    :gw: :diddy: :dk2: :dedede: :fox: :ike:

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    TABLE OF CONTENTS:
    I – Intro (and lots of other important stuff too, just read it :3)
    II – Helpful information
    III – Matchup exports
    IV – Archive

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    I – INTRODUCTION

    Welcome to the Wolf Matchup Center! In here you can find links to various discussions on Wolf’s matchups against other characters in SSBB, along with links to current discussions. Before we get started however, there are a few important rules I’d like to throw out there (and yes, I WILL be enforcing these):

    IMPORTANT RULES:

    No really, they’re generally pretty important, but I guess most of them are givens. Either way, check them out if you have the time, and if not, well… just don’t do anything stupid.

    The MOST IMPORTANT RULE that deserves to take up actual space is rule #1. DON’T POST ABOUT MATCHUPS IN-DEPTH IN THIS THREAD, only talk about matchups in their respective exports. This thread can be used to POST EXPORTS FROM OTHER BOARDS, as well as discuss which characters you’d like to see next and other general suggestions on stuff to do for this project, pictures to use in exports, etc.

    [collapse=Rules]1) Posted outside of collapse tags, because it’s JUST THAT GOOD ;D

    2) DON'T IGNORE QUALITIES OF EITHER CHARACTER. Please. Realistic ratios and valid points (it’s okay to throw out a small joke one-liner as long as the rest of your post is actually serious and helpful though), and don't give ratios without considering CGs/locks unless it's simply to make a point that the CG/lock is the only reason a matchup would change (ex. how Wolf:pikachu was considered to be Wolf's advantage before the discovery of the buffered dthrow CG).


    3) BACK UP YOUR POINTS!!! Evidence really helps a lot more than saying a matchup is 70:30 and leaving it at that. If you’re not willing to back up your points with some sort of proof or logic or list of players you’ve versed, don’t post. If you aren’t sure of your point, make it clear that you’re not 100% on it. If you know all about your point, then enlighten the rest of us ;D

    4) EXPERIENCE AGAINST SKILLED MAINS OF THE CHARACTER >>> THEORY. Really. Not that we all have such experience, but in the end that’s going to do a lot more for your Brawl ability than reading up on matchups. Go out there and play the game if you really want to make progress, theory can be useful but it only gets you so far. Also, speaking of which, mindgames aren’t considered part of a matchup, so don’t get into that field of "what if"s either.


    5) NO TROLLING OR FLAMING OTHER BULL****. And I mean it. I’m not having any of that crap in anything matchup-related, if your post doesn’t make any contribution you will first get a warning, and repeat offenses will result in infractions. Yes JJ, this means you can’t post bairdance links :p

    6) BE HELPFUL BY CORRECTING MISINFORMATION! If someone asks a question or has the wrong impression about something, help them out. Without understanding the true weaknesses your character faces in a matchup, you can't work to overcome those weaknesses. Ignorance is not bliss, because you will get ***** in tournament for it, so don't be that guy that thinks your character beats MK 60:40. Help the metagame out by spreading the knowledge so people can push to overcome the disadvantages of their character and show the community a more accurate respresentation of what that character is truly capable of :3

    7) IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM OR SUGGESTION TO MAKE THINGS BETTER, PM ME. This includes important aspects of the matchup or quotes that you feel I should put into the OP of each export, issues with how things are being run, etc.[/collapse]

    Awesome. So now that we have those down, let me go a bit more into detail about how the matchups will be run (aka FORMAT):

    I’m aiming to have about three matchups active at a time. Once it looks like there’s a general consensus on a matchup, I’ll open up another matchup for discussion. The previous matchup isn’t going to be closed though, and I encourage everyone to continue discussion until there’s really nothing left to say. However, if you have a small question on a matchup but the discussion is already taken care of, take it to the Social/Q&A thread (yes, we actually answer questions there lol) since bumping matchup discussions usually doesn’t end well from what I’ve seen :x

    Each individual export will start off kinda like this (initial idea taken from JayDeath on the Bowser boards, but idk anymore lol, whatever):

    Character
    Current Ratio:
    Annoying Moves:
    Killing:
    Zoning:
    Chaingrabs/Tilt Locks/Grab Releases:
    What To Do Offstage:
    Stages
    - Strike:
    - Ban:
    - Pick:
    MU Tricksies:
    Synopsis and Quotes:


    And last but not least: WHAT THE **** DO THESE NUMBERS EVEN MEAN?!?!?!?!

    Well, the BBR came out with a new way of organizing MUs. Seen in the OP in this thread.
    [collapse=What the number categories mean]-4: (close to) unwinnable
    -3: large disadvantage/hard countered
    -2: medium disadvantage
    -1: small disadvantage
    0: even
    +1: small advantage
    +2: medium advantage
    +3: large advantage/hard counter
    +4: (close to) unloseable[/collapse]

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    II – HELPFUL INFORMATION

    This section is basically here to make sure that everyone can check out important stats like airspeed and frame data, along with some basic information about Wolf and a few helpful tricks that he may/may not have on other characters.


    THREADS WITH GOOD INFORMATION:

    - Frame Data Directory

    - Internal Character Mechanics Values

    - Wolf tips/tricks against various characters

    - Maybe some other stuff in this thread that you can find in tactical, idk.


    BASIC INFORMATION ABOUT WOLF: (really basic stuff, skip if you... know the character. lol)

    [collapse=Basic Wolf stuff]- Shine has 8 frames of invincibility, starting INSTANTLY. This is pretty important, as it allows Wolf to escape many situations that would otherwise really really suck. FH shine is a good way to make use of the invincibility and escape through aerial approaches.

    - Back air hits on frame 6-7, and is basically impossible to punish when spaced well/done properly (example, can be spaced so D3 can't shieldgrab which you can check out in Choice vs Michael Hey, blablabla). Main point of this being that, at high levels of play, Wolf is not an easy character to grab.

    - Forward air has a disjoint that’s about equal in size to Marth’s fair and autocancels in a SH (or a FH when moving up to a platform). It can do a pretty good job of stuffing aerial approaches.

    - A lot of stuff goes through Wolf's upB, even after being caught in it. Thankfully, with good DI and a high airspeed (plus some other tools like flash cancelling, etc) Wolf will rarely be in a position where he is forced to upB (even though sideB can be interrupted as well, but I'll get into that more when it's important in the matchup). With mastery of recovery, Wolf is actually fairly difficult to gimp (not saying it's impossible, but really, this isn't 2008).[/collapse]

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    III – THE EXPORTS

    Yep. Current exports are listed at the top, conveniently hyperlinked via character icon :3

    [collapse=Export Threads for Individual Matchups]Bleh, this crap still needs to get organized, but I’ll get to that after the first wave of exports / new tier list.

    :popo:
    :gw:
    :pikachu2:
    :pit:
    :ganon:
    :ness2:
    :wario:
    :peach:
    :fox:
    :mario2:
    :toonlink:
    :olimar:
    :falcon:
    :luigi2:
    :metaknight:
    :falco:
    :link2:
    :sonic:
    :marth:
    :diddy:
    :kirby2:
    :snake:
    :lucas:
    :dedede:
    :dk2:
    :lucario:
    :bowser2:
    :rob:
    :jigglypuff:
    :zerosuitsamus:
    :yoshi2:
    :zelda:/ :shiek:
    :pt: :ivysaur: :charizard: :squirtle:
    :ike:
    :samus2:
    :wolf:[/collapse]

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    IV – THE ARCHIVE

    This is where you can take a look at all of our old matchup material, if you ever want to check it out for whatever reason :p

    - Wolf Matchup Thread (old, started 6/15/2009)

    - Wolf Matchup Thread (very old, started 8/12/2008)

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-​


    ANNOUNCEMENTS:

    Man I'm lazy. Currently reformatting the layout for exports.

    :059:
     
  2. ~ Gheb ~

    ~ Gheb ~
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    I think for the ratios it would be best to take the "out of ten" system because it has more practical application than any other ratio and it's the most useful one out there. The rest is too arbitrary to be useful and can be misleading, especially the distinction between stuff like 60/40 and 55/45.

    As for characters I think D3 is very important to discuss for high tier and I would be in favour of discussing it first.

    :059:
     
  3. Laem

    Laem
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    Valiant attempt. Can the Woffles behave? To be continued...
    High tiers have priority obviously, d3 sounds good to me
     
  4. Gah777

    Gah777
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    That picture of wolf is my sig, but without the chilli. I'm suing for copywrite infringement.
     
  5. Seagull Joe

    Seagull Joe
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    Since we usually start from Mk and move down, lets go from Ganon and move up for once. :bee:
     
  6. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    One character from each section of the tier list at a time guys :p I figure that if we start with low tiers there probably won't be great discussion at first (setting a bad precedent for future discussions), and if we start with high tiers people won't be as interested in the later discussions (making them crappier than they should be).

    Also, one matchup from each "tier" with three total at a time allows people to focus more on the matchup they're most knowledgeable about, avoiding crap posts in the others and allowing a higher ratio of other input to Wolf main input (the latter of which is something we really needed help with last time). I want to try and give each person a matchup that they can actually contribute to every cycle, y'know? Or am I going about this the wrong way xD

    Anyways, seems like D3 is a popular choice for the high tier discussion, that sounds like a good idea. Any suggestions for mid/low tier characters?

    :059:
     
  7. Laem

    Laem
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    Ganondorf, obviously. I find the notion that Wolf beats him 80/20 instead of 70:30 utterly PREPOSTEROUS.
    but yeah for the sake of whatever
    ill just say Fox for midtier and mario for lowtier
     
  8. CryoSomnus

    CryoSomnus
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    A Frost-bitten Wolf

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    Fox for Mid-tier and Ike for Low-tier.
     
  9. Goldenadept

    Goldenadept
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    fox and ike have been getting more Rep/results as of late so those two seem like a good idea.

    i still need help with the ROB match up but at this point i think fox would probably be a wiser discussion
     
  10. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Okay, DeDeDe Fox and Ike it is :3 Post good pictures if you have any, since all the ones I find suck.

    :059:
     
  11. tekkie

    tekkie
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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. CryoSomnus

    CryoSomnus
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    A Frost-bitten Wolf

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    [​IMG]

    The Fox pics should be the WolfxFox pics. :p
     
  13. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Slightly more bamf pictures for Fox please, no furry action either :p Also, expect the exports to be up late tonight once my computer stops lagging and I finish my matlab homework.

    @Gheb: It's not that I'm against matchups out of ten, but I feel like a lot of matchups for us will fall between 5:5 and 4:6 either way... and when there's already a small guide on what the numbers mean (as well as most people used to the 5-point splits) I just figured it would be more familiar and convenient :x

    @Gah: It's the only decent picture I could find on google in like 1 minute X_x Forgive me <3

    :059:
     
  14. satowolf

    satowolf
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    Oppa Gundam Style

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    Are we still doing pics?
    And yay! A new Matchup Thread :D

    [collapse][​IMG][/collapse]

    ^i can edit that xP
    (has more pics)

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Omg Misato, pleasepleaseplease edit that (words + maybe finger too? Not so sure about how okay that is either :x) so I can post it for the Fox export xD Beautiful haha

    :059:
     
  16. satowolf

    satowolf
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    Oppa Gundam Style

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    Lol okay :D
     
  17. rsr2

    rsr2
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    I like it the way it is :p

    and the Ike pic looks pretty B-A
     
  18. CryoSomnus

    CryoSomnus
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    A Frost-bitten Wolf

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    Me too. xD

    Actually, the finger might be okay. Nintendo let Wolf get away with doing it in the game, after all.
     
  19. Goldenadept

    Goldenadept
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    lol wolf, i always chalked that up to him being old and crippled with arthritis so his middle finger was all wonky in the cutscene.
    he's an old grey muzzle
     
  20. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    I like it the way it is too, but rules are rules... you know how it is :<

    Let me check the status of the finger, I've seen worse/more suggestive things posted on SWF >_>

    EDIT: Yeah, E-rated community. Although I don't see what censor bars really solve, guess both have to be taken care of :(

    :059:
     
  21. castorpollux

    castorpollux
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    i still don't get this thread O_O
     
  22. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    What about it don't you get? O.o

    :059:
     
  23. castorpollux

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    well there was a lot of text so i never actually read through it. O_O


    NEEDS MOAR PICTURES!
     
  24. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Yep, knew that was going to happen lol. I'll get to that later, but most of the text isn't anything special, I just wanted to make things clear which results in a lot of words, hence all the collapse tags :p

    :059:
     
  25. Gah777

    Gah777
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    Can we do the ICs after DDD? I have trouble with that matchup >.>
     
  26. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Works for me, any other suggestions for the next wave of characters?

    :059:
     
  27. Choice

    Choice
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    i support that. lets talk about pikachu vs wolf. i've been doing quite a bit of research vs pikachu and i wanna know what you guys know too.
     
  28. tekkie

    tekkie
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    meta knnnnnnniggit
     
  29. Choice

    Choice
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    i guess that match up is kinda important.
     
  30. castorpollux

    castorpollux
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    wolf punishing video would be da bess

    nobody likes reading
     
  31. Choice

    Choice
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    Smash Champion

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    i like reading
     
  32. castorpollux

    castorpollux
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    i like pretty girls


    but pictures says a 1000 words and videos says a 1000000 words


    think about it. you can describe how pretty a girl is, but people still won't know what she looks like.
     
  33. Seagull Joe

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    This is true.
    Same (but not books). I hate reading books.
    Someone make the replays and I'll record and upload to my channel immediately.
     
  34. Ishiey

    Ishiey
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    Mother Wolf

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    Let's try keeping this thread more on-topic :p

    So IC/Pikachu/MK for high tiers, which one do you guys want to tackle first? Mid-tier wise I want to cover Peach or Luigi, and for low I'm thinking Lucas.

    :059:
     
  35. Seagull Joe

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    High=Falco.
    Mid=Fox.
    Low=L00cas.
     
  36. Gah777

    Gah777
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    High: ICs
    Mid: Peach
    Low: Lucas
     
  37. Choice

    Choice
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    Smash Champion

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    High: Pikachu
    Mid: DK
    Low: Wolf (ditto)
     
  38. thegreatkazoo

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    High: Meta Gay.
    Mid: :luigi:
    Low: :lucas:
     
  39. M.C. Pee-Pants

    M.C. Pee-Pants
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    High: Falco

    Mid : luigi

    low: ness
     
  40. Choice

    Choice
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    i like how you gave 3 high tiers to pick from and falco somehow snuck his way in.
     

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