Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Daeyrat]

Yesterday I tested the Wizard Kick damage and knockback. The final portion of the move does not have higher knockback. It's worse.

However, my testing showed that Ganon's bair has similar knockback to Mario's fsmash. It kills really early...

 

[Thinkaman]

RCO lag

There is no RCO lag (Recovery Carry-Over lag) in Smash 4.

This makes Ganon so happy. So happy.

Also, a quick thought:
I don't think Flame Wave is a bad move, but I'm having trouble thinking of any matchups where I'd value it more than side 1 or 3. Because Flame Wave is slow enough to dodge on command out of shield (while not also covering away rolls like Flame Choke or Flame Chain), I usually find f-smash to be a superior grounded option. (Very similar speed, similar range, more kill power, 6% more damage, charge-able)

I think the real value lies in the aerial version, which is decidedly superior to standard Flame Choke on-hit, at the cost of less speed and range.

Witch matchups are you thinking of using Flame Wave in?

 

[Z1GMA]

There is no RCO lag (Recovery Carry-Over lag) in Smash 4.

Mega Man has RCO Lag on his up+B.

 

[Thinkaman]

Mega Man has RCO Lag on his up+B.

I can't reproduce this.

 

[Daeyrat]

Flame Wave only in FFAs for me.
It's not useless, but the others are better.

 

[FEFIZ]

Thanks guys

 

[_Magus_]

We're talking grounded or air, here? I'm talking grounded (though air is remarkably stronger... given Ganon's weight, it makes sense that he's plowing his entire weight through this attack)

Grounded offstage. :D

 

[Xinc]

Thanks guys

I keep referring Flame Wave as Gerudo Dragon. There is a lot of resemblence. I don't see it being more useful than any of the other side Bs but it can kill.

Grounded offstage. :D

It definitely has kill potential! :D

 

[Big O]

The thing about RCO lag in this game is that it goes away when you grab the ledge, unlike Brawl (making it less harmful overall). You can however still get RCO lag by landing with specials (or Nair with Mega Man) after an Up B. Doing so will make your next landing extra laggy. For Ganon, you only get RCO lag after grabbing them with Up B.

 

[_Magus_]

I keep referring Flame Wave as Gerudo Dragon. There is a lot of resemblence. I don't see it being more useful than any of the other side Bs but it can kill.


It definitely has kill potential! :D

Even if it doesn't kill directly, I've gimped with it alone, or comboed it into stuff like uair. Typically nets me a stock.

Btw, I'm having trouble unlocking Dark Fists. Anybody know any shortcuts?

 

[Xinc]

Even if it doesn't kill directly, I've gimped with it alone, or comboed it into stuff like uair. Typically nets me a stock.

Btw, I'm having trouble unlocking Dark Fists. Anybody know any shortcuts?

I haven't unlocked wave yet, but I've played it on my friend's 3ds.

 

[Nysyarc]

Not sure if anyone else has had success with this (or even intentionally tried it), but I've been able to get a lot of kills by punishing with the very tail end hit of Dash Attack near the ledge (if opponent rolls away to the ledge, lands unsafely near the ledge from the air, uses a laggy move, stands up from the ledge, etc) and comboing it into a Uair at high percents. It seems to be well known by now that strong hit Dash Attack -> Uair is viable at low percents and mid percents based on weight and vectoring, but it seems that the weak hitbox of Dash Attack reliably combos into Uair at 100%+ on many characters, and if done near the ledge will outright take the stock.

I don't want to just test this in training because vectoring will be a factor in actual matches, so if anyone else has an opportunity in a match to try this out, go for it and see if it works for you. At the very least, landing this once in a set even if it's not guaranteed will put the fear in them and then you can bait an air-dodge the next time you get the weak Dash Attack and just do whatever villainous things you want to them.

 

[Thinkaman]

The thing about RCO lag in this game is that it goes away when you grab the ledge, unlike Brawl (making it less harmful overall). You can however still get RCO lag by landing with specials (or Nair with Mega Man) after an Up B. Doing so will make your next landing extra laggy. For Ganon, you only get RCO lag after grabbing them with Up B.

Got it. So:

• All characters with special landing-lag have it stored until one of the following actions:
  • Landing
  • Ledge grab
  • Standard aerial landing
  • Other special landing lag overwrites it
  • Reseting Bowser Jr.'s clown car
• The lag is NOT reset by:
  • Taking damage/knockback
  • Doing (but not landing during) a standard aerial
  • Doing or landing during a special
  • Doing or landing during a Mega Man nair
  • Hitting the ground in tumble (tech or not)
  • Double jumping
  • Bouncing off Mega Man's Rush or Sonic's Spring

Some specials, like Palutena's Jump Glide, only apply special landing lag at the end of the move. Ganon, like most characters, has it applied from the start on both up-b and side-b.

 

[camden]

Not sure if anyone else has had success with this (or even intentionally tried it), but I've been able to get a lot of kills by punishing with the very tail end hit of Dash Attack near the ledge (if opponent rolls away to the ledge, lands unsafely near the ledge from the air, uses a laggy move, stands up from the ledge, etc) and comboing it into a Uair at high percents. It seems to be well known by now that strong hit Dash Attack -> Uair is viable at low percents and mid percents based on weight and vectoring, but it seems that the weak hitbox of Dash Attack reliably combos into Uair at 100%+ on many characters, and if done near the ledge will outright take the stock.

I don't want to just test this in training because vectoring will be a factor in actual matches, so if anyone else has an opportunity in a match to try this out, go for it and see if it works for you. At the very least, landing this once in a set even if it's not guaranteed will put the fear in them and then you can bait an air-dodge the next time you get the weak Dash Attack and just do whatever villainous things you want to them.

I can confirm that it works pretty well. It's a great punish option against people that react too quickly to your approach, and like you mentioned, a decent edgeguarding choice. I've been doing it for a while now and I'm loving it.

Also, I've considered Flame Wave against Rosalina, although I'm not a 100% sure on that yet.

 

[Xinc]

I can confirm that it works pretty well. It's a great punish option against people that react too quickly to your approach, and like you mentioned, a decent edgeguarding choice. I've been doing it for a while now and I'm loving it.

Also, I've considered Flame Wave against Rosalina, although I'm not a 100% sure on that yet.

I think Flame Chain is more useful, but wave has its uses.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Wave against Rosalina is a huge no. Stick to choke or chain. Wave is way too slow, and should only be used against heavier characters with no projectiles or 'not so good' projectiles. Wave's main bonus is that it kills with a command grab, Rosalina is quite light anyway so it'll only hinder you more against her.

@ Thinkaman : I specifically mentioned on stage. Ganon does get lag animation after using any three of his up special recovery move on stage (though, I'm not entirely sure for Dark Fists, will have to test that out).

 

[camden]

Okay, I now realised I got Wave and Chain mixed up somehow. Yeah, I wasn't planning on using Wave on her. Chain, definitely.

 

[Xinc]

Okay, I now realised I got Wave and Chain mixed up somehow. Yeah, I wasn't planning on using Wave on her. Chain, definitely.

Has many ways to interfere with Rosa, chain does.

 

[Z1GMA]

On Battle Field against ppl who land on the platforms after a Gerudo.
Sure, Gerudo > Usmash is great, especially for killing, but at low %'s, for more damage, I'm liking:

Around 0%: Gerudo > DJ Dair (AC) > Grab > Dthrow > Uair.
Nasty damage. they can sometimes vector to avoid the Uair, though.

Around 20%: Gerudo > DJ Dair (AC) > Sweet Spot Usmash.
56% damage. 19% more than the regular Gerudo > Usmash.

 

[Xinc]

On Battle Field against ppl who land on the platforms after a Gerudo.
Sure, Gerudo > Usmash is great, especially for killing, but at low %'s, for more damage, I'm liking:

Around 0%: Gerudo > DJ Dair (AC) > Grab > Dthrow > Uair.
Nasty damage. they can sometimes vector to avoid the Uair, though.

Around 20%: Gerudo > DJ Dair (AC) > Sweet Spot Usmash.
56% damage. 19% more than the regular Gerudo > Usmash.

Is there a list of which characters get sent to the higher platform when Choked? That way, we can solidify combo strategies on BF.

 

[Z1GMA]

Is there a list of which characters get sent to the higher platform when Choked? That way, we can solidify combo strategies on BF.

I think my friend is working on one.

 

[Xinc]

I think my friend is working on one.

Great.

 

[Z1GMA]

Me and @Tonsana did some testing on Wizkick Spiking, and its power is pretty sickening - not the least the initial knockback.

Scenario: Mario's hanging on the ledge
0% Ganon uses stomp - Mario has no problems at all recovering. Even at low%s, Mario can make it back from a stomp.

0% Ganon uses Wizkick Spike - The initial knockback puts Mario so far down that it's impossible for him to recover.

12% Ganon uses Wizkick Spike - The knockback is now so powerful that Mario doesn't even get time to DJ or up+B.
He just dies.

This was tested w/o vectoring, I think, but it still shows how insane Wizkick Spiking is at low %s.

Use this when ppl re-grab the ledge, or when you've trumped them. Space it so that Ganon barely lands on stage.
This is a 0-death against a lot of characters!

 

[Xinc]

Me and @Tonsana did some testing on Wizkick Spiking, and its power is pretty sickening - not the least the initial knockback.

Scenario: Mario's hanging on the ledge
0% Ganon uses stomp - Mario has no problems at all recovering. Even at low%s, Mario can make it back from a stomp.

0% Ganon uses Wizkick Spike - The initial knockback puts Mario so far down that it's impossible for him to recover.

12% Ganon uses Wizkick Spike - The knockback is now so powerful that Mario doesn't even get time to DJ or up+B.
He just dies.

This was tested w/o vectoring, I think, but it still shows how insane Wizkick Spiking is at low %s.

Use this when ppl re-grab the ledge, or when you've trumped them. Space it so that Ganon barely lands on stage.
This is a 0-death against a lot of characters!

More styling tricks~

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Good stuff. Here you can find the frame data of about every character and of most of their moves.

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Ganon's Jab is 8 frames on startup as we all thought. Dash attack is surprisingly fast at 10 frames at startup. Ftilt 10 frames. Utilt hits on frame 6 but initiates at frame 79. Dtilt is frame 10 startup.

Dsmash is his fastest smash with the same reach horizontally as fsmash at 15 frames start up. Fsmash and Usmash both start up at 21 frames (which is actually pretty fast and safe, considering the power and the push back they give shields). Normally, Dtilt should and could be used at moments when only dsmash could hit the opponent. Dsmash is a good roll teaser though.

I am surprised that uair comes out at the 6th frame, faster than nair's 7th frame. Bair is 10 frames, dair is 16 and fair is 14.

Overall, much faster than Brawl dorf.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Good stuff. Here you can find the frame data of about every character and most moves.

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Ganon's Jab is 8 frames on startup as we all thought. Dash attack is surprisingly fast at 10 frames at startup. Ftilt 10 frames. Utilt hits on frame 6 startup but initiates at frame 79. Dtilt is frame 10 startup.

Dsmash is the fastest smash with the same reach horizontally as fsmash at 15 frames start up. Fsmash and Usmash both start up at 21 frames (which is actually pretty fast and safe, considering their power and the push back they give shields).

Overall, much faster than Brawl dorf.

Not really. Most of Ganondorf's frame data is copypasted from Brawl. I think U-tilt comes out a couple frames faster, but that's about it in terms of how quickly the hitboxes come out. Here's Ganondorf's Brawl frame data for comparison.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Seems similar, but even a frame difference makes a huge change. For example 10-12 frames on ftilt in Brawl will make Ganondorf a certain percentage slower in his overall game than a 10 frame ftilt.

And remember, the animations and lag are much cleaner.

 

[Z1GMA]

Jab can't be frame 8. It's frame 8 in Brawl, and it's way faster in smash 4.

 

[Xinc]

Jab can't be frame 8. It's frame 8 in Brawl, and it's way faster in smash 4.

Probably just the animation thing. If you hit an opponent with his jab, it looks just as slow as the brawl counterpart.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

It appears to me that the nair first hit has a little bit less knockback (at least in the weaker part of the hitbox) which allows the two hits to link more easily.

Also, the second hit does send in an amusing trajectory in which if there's a wall nearby, the opponent will bounce off the wall and you can jump and bair him. Happened to me in Skyloft today.

 

[Lozjam]

Jab can't be frame 8. It's frame 8 in Brawl, and it's way faster in smash 4.

You're forgetting that Brawl ran at about 30fps while Smash 4 runs at 60fps. So what would be 8 in Smash 4 would be 4 frames in Brawl.

 

[adom4]

You're forgetting that Brawl ran at about 30fps while Smash 4 runs at 60fps. So what would be 8 in Smash 4 would be 4 frames in Brawl.

What are you talkiing about?
Brawl is 60 FPS.

 

[JmacAttack]

I just don't agree with the common thought of Dropkick being outright better than Wizard Foot. Yes, it gives you horizontal recovery, but it costs you a very effective kill move. Opponents chasing you into the air for combos can have their momentum used against them, even in a trade, as aerial WizFoot has monstrous vertical knockback. Many of my kills have been thanks to WF. Dropkick is very weak as an attack, and has horizontal KB.

I agree that which is better depends on the matchup, though. Little Mac will never chase you into the air, for example, and he might just armor through an aerial WF with an up smash. Sheik, on the other hand, loves chasing into up air, where a well timed DJ to WF sour spot can star KO at mid percent. I've also used Short hop WF to punish teched flame chokes, which kills at kill percentage.

Flame Chain is so good but removes your command grab and Ganoncide. Likely useful against Diddy, because it clanks his banana, and beats his own command grab, but I prefer choke for slow, large characters like DDD, since a missed tech can be punished with Ftilt for a KO.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dropkick is mainly better for certain MUs like projectile campers, etc. due to its angle, IMO.

It also makes Ganon's recovery WAYYYY better.

 

[JmacAttack]

Dropkick is mainly better for certain MUs like projectile campers, etc. due to its angle, IMO.

It also makes Ganon's recovery WAYYYY better.

Agreed. But WF is better in matchups against opponents that kill vertically more than horizontally. Puff for example, and the spacies.

 

[Xinc]

Agreed. But WF is better in matchups against opponents that kill vertically more than horizontally. Puff for example, and the spacies.

That's true. Puff likes to try to get you into the air, and Wizkick will kill her at a decent percent. WDK on the other hand, stops her from advancing, but offers little else.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jab can't be frame 8. It's frame 8 in Brawl, and it's way faster in smash 4.

It's not. I cross checked Brawl and Smash 4 footage on frame advance. It has the same frame data.

It might look faster on 30 fps footage, keeping in mind 8 frames is still faster than human reaction time. But as someone who is VERY big on collecting accurate data, I can say with certainty that Ganon's Jab is not faster in this game.

What are you talkiing about?
Brawl is 60 FPS.

This too. Brawl by default runs at 60 fps, just like most modern action video games.

Smash 4 Ganondorf isn't really faster except for the landing lag buffs we got, but more importantly we're basically one of the only characters that actually averages something like 13 damage a hit while basically everyone else does closer to like 8 damage a hit. This is especially important when you realize that the extent to which shield stun is directly correlated to damage on hit, which makes characters like Ganondorf safer on block in Smash 4 than in Brawl.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm pretty sure Ftilt is a LITTLE faster, and his movement speed is obviously better on the ground (everybody's got buffed). He's mostly the same but a better engine helps him out greatly.

 

[Xinc]

I'm pretty sure Ftilt is a LITTLE faster, and his movement speed is obviously better on the ground (everybody's got buffed). He's mostly the same but a better engine helps him out greatly.

Considering how Ftilt was also a fast move in Brawl, I don't see it going much faster. It has great range and wonderful startup. Ending lag though leaves a little bit to be desired.

 

[Z1GMA]

You get RCO Lag after grabbing ppl with up+b.
You can mask it by landing with an aerial, though. Preferably Nair.

btw, has anybody tested if Ganon can do the Demonic Elbow or Salmon Smash now with C-sticking, like in Brawl?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You get RCO Lag after grabbing ppl with up+b.
You can mask it by landing with an aerial, though. Preferably Nair.

Yeah, now with the deduced nair lag, it'll always be wiser to wiff that after an onstage stage Dark Dive.

btw, has anybody tested if Ganon can do the Demonic Elbow or Salmon Smash now with C-sticking, like in Brawl?

I'm sure you've probably heard about the cstick glitch with the Gamecube controller. You're stuck in one place if you try dairing with cstick and moving forward with the cpad. The turn around to this is that you'll have to dair with cstick after you move forward with cpad - but, obviously, this will make the attack slower. This would've hindered Ganon a lot if he had autocancelled dairs.

I think that this is the same case with all aerials as well. The glitch happens because Smash attacks automatically charge when you hold cstick.

What I did is, I switched my control from Smash Attack to Attack for the cstick. Because of this, I cannot Smash Attack with the cstick now, but this does make the glitch above go away.

As for your question though, yes. Ganon does sutterstep. Both in reverse and forward.

I tested in Smashville (unlockable) with the opponent on the top platform. For a normal fsmash it takes 19 times to travel all the way to the end. If you stutterstep forward by clicking the normal cstick input and cpad the same direction, it takes 14.5 times to travel to the end of Smashville. Ganon can also reverse stutterstep, pressing cstick forward while facing the opposite direction, this makes him move backwards a bit and then forward - roughly 20-21 fsmashes like this to travel Smashville.