-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Winning Steak Cinemas: Video Archive & Criticism Thread Updated
- Thread starter Trent
- Start date
Browny
Smash Hater
when does fresh dash attack strong hitbox kill LOL
True Blue
Smash Lord
@satanpute: Wow! Those were some pretty intense matches! Especially the one with Peach! You should have won against that wolf.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
The pain of not killing is too much sometimes. I feel like saving uair for killing in those scenarios. But uair is so good...... o and anyone got suggestions on the wario MU? That and the diddy match up are killing me. Mike wont go mk or Marth any more : (
Kinzer
Mammy
The only thing I can say about Wario is don't play their game.
... Whatever the Hell that actually is.
I would assume that means finding the right balance of aggression and regression.
You can't play overly defensive. If you sit in your shield too long you can either get poked out of it or that Bite... chances are you'll also get desperate once your shield gets low and panicking is the last thing you want to do.
You can't be brainless with your assault either. Seems that everything Sonic can do can be punished by Wario... and really hard too. A fresh Uair does 17% damage and kills somewhere at around 120%, an FSmash does around that much damage if not more and can very well get an early kill if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think I need to elaborate on the Waft.
This will sound redundant but what I like to do is play right outside their range. Make them acknowledge the fact that any sort of commitment they make can, should, and hopefully will be recognized and not go unpunished. That would be the best case scenario from a pseudo-neutral position anyway, I believe in order to get their respect you also have to make some moves yourself. Granted, nothing too risky 'lest you score a hard read, but you can weave thrugh him with rising Fairs/Uairs, or attack his shield with a retreating Bair; things he cannot easily punish, if at all on hit/block. Dash Attack could work with that same train of thought, but ya know... don't do it right next to the edge of the stage if you can avoid it; as you'll have nowhere to run if it misses.
... Oh yeah, and obviously direct Spindash Roll/ASC approaches can work. I think it goes without saying that it just can't be abused.
I wouldn't go for grabs too much. Nice if you can get them, but this matchup just makes the risk-reward of the maneuver quite investing on either end.
I've absolutely no idea on Diddy.
... Whatever the Hell that actually is.
I would assume that means finding the right balance of aggression and regression.
You can't play overly defensive. If you sit in your shield too long you can either get poked out of it or that Bite... chances are you'll also get desperate once your shield gets low and panicking is the last thing you want to do.
You can't be brainless with your assault either. Seems that everything Sonic can do can be punished by Wario... and really hard too. A fresh Uair does 17% damage and kills somewhere at around 120%, an FSmash does around that much damage if not more and can very well get an early kill if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't think I need to elaborate on the Waft.
This will sound redundant but what I like to do is play right outside their range. Make them acknowledge the fact that any sort of commitment they make can, should, and hopefully will be recognized and not go unpunished. That would be the best case scenario from a pseudo-neutral position anyway, I believe in order to get their respect you also have to make some moves yourself. Granted, nothing too risky 'lest you score a hard read, but you can weave thrugh him with rising Fairs/Uairs, or attack his shield with a retreating Bair; things he cannot easily punish, if at all on hit/block. Dash Attack could work with that same train of thought, but ya know... don't do it right next to the edge of the stage if you can avoid it; as you'll have nowhere to run if it misses.
... Oh yeah, and obviously direct Spindash Roll/ASC approaches can work. I think it goes without saying that it just can't be abused.
I wouldn't go for grabs too much. Nice if you can get them, but this matchup just makes the risk-reward of the maneuver quite investing on either end.
I've absolutely no idea on Diddy.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
@Espy- I'm still the saddest sonic.
@BAM- How sonic plays the wario matchup:
1. Move the marker off of sonic and onto d3 on the CSS.
2. Chaingrab and air releases to kill moves.
3. ???
Profit.
Sike nah, the wario matchup is best played using little to no spindash, spacing bairs, juggling. Dtilt beats bite. Other than that, pray.
Diddy is just making sure you don't sit in shield and a lot of uthrows>fair/uair. sh fair also messes up diddy as well. when a banana hits your shield, jump oos and catch it immediately- standing in shield against diddy gets you ****ed up pretty badly.
@BAM- How sonic plays the wario matchup:
1. Move the marker off of sonic and onto d3 on the CSS.
2. Chaingrab and air releases to kill moves.
3. ???
Profit.
Sike nah, the wario matchup is best played using little to no spindash, spacing bairs, juggling. Dtilt beats bite. Other than that, pray.
Diddy is just making sure you don't sit in shield and a lot of uthrows>fair/uair. sh fair also messes up diddy as well. when a banana hits your shield, jump oos and catch it immediately- standing in shield against diddy gets you ****ed up pretty badly.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
Sorry, i had terrible word choice. No spin charge is what I meant. Thanks espy.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i completely forgot about that. I was supposed to make a list of characters sonic could camp out with spin dash.
i only remember wario and sonic.
i only remember wario and sonic.
It probably does. Problem was that K Prime was pretty stubborn about letting me grab him.
I'll peg that on bad gameplay on my part.
Nike's uploading the sets. I need to see what I did wrong again anyways.
I'd think most of the characters who can't do anything on YI:B/Picto would be more or less the same. Except probably Ice Climbers.
But pretty much anyone who doesn't have a decent projectile can be camped by spin dash?
Ganondorf, Captain Falcon...I don't know who else off of the top of my head.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I think I remember putting peach in that category.
Da1AndOnlySonic
Smash Journeyman
I was spin dash camping Nicole at Pound V for some time on FD, turnips aren't a big deal. I would place Peach in that category.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
Peach is def spindash campable.
If I take rob's gyro, I spindash camp him with it in my hand.
I spindash camped both kirin's link and mario pretty hard.
It works.
If I take rob's gyro, I spindash camp him with it in my hand.
I spindash camped both kirin's link and mario pretty hard.
It works.
Life
Smash Hero
Weird, every time I tried spindash anything against the Peaches at /hope3 I got ***** by aerials.
Nike.
Smash Hero
FRiSKruns
Smash Ace
Vids from San Japan 4T, I'm linking them and putting them in the correct format so they can be viewed/critiqued and archived.
Thanks for recording/uploading all of these Nike!
Winners Bracket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnUVFkOyuTo - Zero (Sonic) vs Atmos (Diddy Kong) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWjhTM0hMw - Zero (Sonic) vs Atmos (Diddy Kong) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFV-Dh5Fgis - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaT-w4Ki8o - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 2
Loser's Bracket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPYjzmEaHTo - Zero (Sonic) vs Kyro (Ness) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYfxAx7-NPs - Zero (Sonic) vs Kyro (Ness) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEPXrjYE48Y - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (MetaKnight) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjFklLQ681Y - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (Lucario) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eS8g-gNs3g - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (Metaknight) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aGP5n--mH0 - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7cRk2DLI1w - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrLSWivIDHY - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSOs9k5QaY - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3HEAUMfHJY - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vndpnDAyLJA - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 3
At any rate, I'd appreciate some input/critique/comments from all you guys, especially in my matches vs. Nike, he *TRASHED* my Sonic pretty bad and I feel I need to get better at the Marth MU, and better as a player overall. So, of course any critique on any of my matches at all would be helpful really. Thanks in advance!
Thanks for recording/uploading all of these Nike!
Winners Bracket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnUVFkOyuTo - Zero (Sonic) vs Atmos (Diddy Kong) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdWjhTM0hMw - Zero (Sonic) vs Atmos (Diddy Kong) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFV-Dh5Fgis - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WaT-w4Ki8o - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 2
Loser's Bracket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPYjzmEaHTo - Zero (Sonic) vs Kyro (Ness) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYfxAx7-NPs - Zero (Sonic) vs Kyro (Ness) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEPXrjYE48Y - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (MetaKnight) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjFklLQ681Y - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (Lucario) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eS8g-gNs3g - Zero (Sonic) vs Suspect (Metaknight) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aGP5n--mH0 - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7cRk2DLI1w - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrLSWivIDHY - Zero (Sonic) vs Big Boss (Snake) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFSOs9k5QaY - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3HEAUMfHJY - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vndpnDAyLJA - Zero (Sonic) vs Nike (Marth) 3
At any rate, I'd appreciate some input/critique/comments from all you guys, especially in my matches vs. Nike, he *TRASHED* my Sonic pretty bad and I feel I need to get better at the Marth MU, and better as a player overall. So, of course any critique on any of my matches at all would be helpful really. Thanks in advance!
FRiSKruns
Smash Ace
I didn't try to time him out. He ran the timer, I just took it back and didn't feel like risking him taking back the lead and timing me out.
Kinzer
Mammy
Will I really~ have to look through every one and give specific critique?
Can I just point out general things and specifics where appropriate please~?
'Kay here I go.
You are literally playing right into Nike's hand. I may be bad at this matchup in particular, but I don't think I have to be good at it to know that you can't just constantly let him have his way. Where you guys playing at Burger King or something, because seriously it didn't look like there was any thought process in your approaches.
There was a reason he was playing excessively defensive, and it's not only because he had the lead, but also because that's where Marth performs best and I'd be willing to bet Nike had you figured before the first match even started. :/
Try to mix-up your approach. By mix-up, I mean throw him off his timing, composure, whatever you have. Make him aware that you aren't going to approach at any particular time. From the looks of it, you would probably see a lot more success if you would do fake-outs via cancels and movement (assuming you have the techskill for that kind of stuff like DDP). It would also especially help you to start going for grabs out of ASCSCs.
That is until he realizes this and starts doing Dolphin Slashes OoS. It'll happen, and by then it will be up to you to be aware of his mix-ups as well. That is a big chunk of the MU really, because even if you somehow forced him to approach it isn't like you suddenly have more freedom either.
On a similar note, you have trouble recovering and getting back down from a juggle. It's somewhat related to the lack of mix-ups. Let me tell you something, sometimes the safest option isn't always safe. In very extreme cases, you will have to Fair or Dair after having been juggled. Crazy right? Well, considering that he'll be prepared to punish your otherwise singular landing, both Fair and Dair can throw him off balance. Now obviously that's not something you want to rely on but something to consider every so often, as the investment is risky and heavy in consequence... yet rewarded seldom... but that's besides the point though.
You know, speaking of composure, don't lose it. Ever. I don't care if you just got spiked out of a Spin Dash, Spring Jump, or whatever you did to put yourself in that position. The minute you panic and get desperate, you brand your eminent doom in your own blood. If you can figure out your opponent's playstyle you can make a come back... and now I think I'm starting to see why some people from here have said that Marth might be one of Sonic's better high-tier matchups... I can dig.
Uhm BTW if I haven't already said it, improving on your execution would certainly help. Two particular cases of failure to properly act are where you missed a grab from a whiffed Dolphin Slash, and the other being where he killed you with a tipper Uair after you jump-canceled your ASC. Why you went through with the latter, I have no idea but I know that either way, you should not have died right and then. :/ This last tidbit isn't necessarily attributed to the matchup, but something to keep in mind as a player.
... You're gonna have to be damn creative with all this. You get to have the added burden of Nike in particular having the best, possibly diverse Sonic experience anyone could ask for. Every trick in the book he'll know, and you'll have to find a way to make it work for you.
I have to go eat, and I only felt like commenting on Marth specifically, if you'd like for me to look at the others, just let me know. Also, you have to promise me that you'll
STOP MUTHA-F***IN' D-THROWING! IT IS A TERRIBLE MOVE AND YOU SHOULD FEEL WORSE THAN YOU DO RIGHT NOW BECAUSE HE PUNISHED YOU PROPERLY NEARLY EVERYTIME AND YOU DIDN'T GIVE UP ON THAT MOVE, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO YOURSELF AND MORE/EQUALLY IMPORTANTLY WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME RAGE SO HARD RIGHT NOW WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN OMGWTFBBQNOOBPWNCOPTORS DFUIGBDUIGBDUYGBODUDG.
Nike if you happen to read this, thank you for trying to help out. I wait to see the day where D-Throw is made an obsolete move and Sonics are forced to use better moves. <3
Nike.
Smash Hero
I GOT YOU, Kinzer <3
FRiSKruns
Smash Ace
No, you don't *really* have to look through every one and give specific critique, naturally it would be appreciated though.
Yes, you can just point out general things where appropriate.
Everything else, noted.
The only reason I even bothered to use D-Throw multiple times, is because I wasn't 100% positive Nike would tech it a majority of the time due to past experiences. However, Nike's been getting better in general recently, and as was shown, teching d-throw consistently is one of the improvements he's made. Although, I will admit, I shouldn't have risked using it anyway. Pressure of the match I'm assuming.
Nike.
Smash Hero
I don't dthrow tech in friendlies.
FRiSKruns
Smash Ace
Well, there you have it, I only assumed that because Nike super sandbags in friendlies. =.=
Edit: In either case, I shouldn't have risked it, and have no intentions of making the same mistake again.
Life
Smash Hero
Dang, Zero doing work haha. So proud man.
If it helps, I'll wifi you with my Marth (not anytime soon though, busy with summer homework until sometime next week, yay procrastination).
If it helps, I'll wifi you with my Marth (not anytime soon though, busy with summer homework until sometime next week, yay procrastination).
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
If i get on stream at ktar i will be playing at least one match where I rock the 'Kinza' tag and use ONLY down throw.
Kinzer
Mammy
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
He doesn't need to, he happens to lose his MMs perfectly fine on his own without dthrow.
Kinzer
Mammy
Whether that be true or not, there is absolutely no need to salt the wound.He doesn't need to, he happens to lose his MMs perfectly fine on his own without dthrow.
Y u *****s do dis?
I hate you all.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
wedge needs to go into hyper troll mode so he can get it all out of his system. he only has 4 more days to talk junk. after ktar he wont have jack to say to me
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
Yup, because my fast outperformance of you says it all for me.
Da1AndOnlySonic
Smash Journeyman
KTAR hype!?!?!
Life
Smash Hero
infomon
Smash Scientist
Oh that's great, I'll use that password for everything. It's so secure!
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
So I remembered why I have no faith in my skills...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS46qDatIvA Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Toon Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJQk_6OTmw Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Toon Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMnFL5A9PyY Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Kirby)
Yeah...why haven't I quit this game yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzyBaivQPao Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Yoshi)
Forgot one...
Also, thank you Tesh for getting these up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS46qDatIvA Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Toon Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJQk_6OTmw Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Toon Link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMnFL5A9PyY Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Kirby)
Yeah...why haven't I quit this game yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzyBaivQPao Excel (Sonic) vs Joey (Yoshi)
Forgot one...
Also, thank you Tesh for getting these up.