Social The WFTGD: How About Some Deep Breathing?

[⑨ball]

At this point in testing we can be sure it's something relatively small like a weight increase/decrease, but it's not so much as anyone cares to tell us, as it is that info is just coming out slower than normal for some reason. Patch was relatively dry anyway and params just happened to be the last thing to be worked on.

Without any knowledge of what the data means all we can do is test ourselves and wait for assistance.

The diff sheet is HERE if anyone is interested in taking a look.

 

[Asdfchris]

Kinda sad to see all these swordsman favouritism. It seems to me they really are balancing based on what people cry about, and the louder they are the more they get.

At least we are not jigglypuff, but i wish we could get some other quality of life buff. A b-air worth its name for once, i don't get why falco get his b-air which is faster, stronger, easier to hit with the strong hitbox AND short-hoppable too. Same for d-air, which is slow as hell and has so much trouble too kill.
Another thing that i would really like would be cutting at least in half the turnaround animation.

Maybe i just need to step up my game but even watching high level matches it seems that WFT revolves too much around his sun, to the point people are using only it and the occasional spaced bair.

Sorry for the long rant but it's getting frustrating seeing all my friends' mains getting buffed every patch while im just here watching as my sun get cancelled by a random aerial.

 

[Cress!]

So now and are the only 2 characters left to look for balancing. If we did get anything, it isn't much now. :|

 

[sam☆jam]

I just killed a ZSS using reverse jab

It was 8 player, near the ledge and she was charging a smash, but it made me laugh. WFT has ankles of steel

 

[Jlp]

Is there any match-up that you find so difficult as WFT that you would switch to your secondary?

I recently played a Meta Knight in a poverty bracket and couldn't do anything to him.

 

[⑨ball]

Is there any match-up that you find so difficult as WFT that you would switch to your secondary?

I recently played a Meta Knight in a poverty bracket and couldn't do anything to him.

Kirby and Pikachu. I don't personally feel like either are enough to REQUIRE a secondary, but the way you have to play to win is just really really unfun as a lot of advantages they have in the MUs come down to really questionable game design.

MK can be pretty difficult if you don't know how he functions. He's way more complex than people give him credit for, but he doesn't really have any tools WFT can't deal with. Try taking him into training mode so you can get a feel for his ranges and cooldown it'll help a ton with knowing what options to pick.

 

[Xyless]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaSXdB3XfkY

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHk_XyZiVA
(YEAH! the stage when you're logged in on your computer, then open miiverse on your Wii U and go to your liked posts to get the stage)
This is a quick overview of a custom stage I made to experiment (mainly WFT) with. A few things that it has that I show off:
-A split stage: left side is basically FD (flat) and right side is basically BF (3 platform layout).
-Platforms are about Battlefield wide/tall, though without the small gap between them. Little Mac is the CPU to show that he can single hop up to each platform.
-The sides are far enough from the ledge that it's still possible to try for gimps.
-Above the FD portion, an additional 4 platforms were included, mainly so I can practice Wii Fit Trainer mashing (max speed lets you get to the top from double jump).

Things NOT shown in video:
-Beneath the ledges, you can wall jump, though it's about as weird as the standard stages to do so.

 

[Cress!]

WAKE UP TAINERS, THERE'S A SURPRISE PATCH OUT!!!
Sadly I don't see any changes to her default moves (I don't want to go through customs right now) in terms of damage, healing, or range. There may be some slight knockback increases though (Dsmash in particular) or a few frames shaved off of a few moves, but she seems mostly the same.

Edit: Actually here's the kill percents in 1.1.5, tested on Dark Pit on the right side of FD (with him wobbling on the ledge), CPU set to control there isn't any DI. Tested on the Wii U version. Smash attacks are fully charged, Deep Breathing isn't in effect. Percents are listed by the earliest percent Dark Pit can be at to die on the right side of the screen, not the bottom. The front and back hits of Fsmash and Dsmash kill at the same percents.
-Dsmash: 50%
-Fsmash: 38%
-Ftilt: 97%
With Fresh Deep Breathing:
-Dsmash: 36%
-Fsmash: 24%
-Ftilt: 80%

 

[⑨ball]

Changes seem to have left WFT out this time as well according to diff sheets. Though with big changes to Sheik, MK and Mewtwo. They're MUs that are definitely worth taking another look at.

I know @John12346 will be pretty happy to hear that Sheik's been nerfed considerably.

 

[Xyless]

Sheik's fair range is gonna be great for us.

 

[Jlp]

I haven't had the chance to play 1.1.5 ::/

In my dreams WFTs smashes have a lot less end lag. That's all I want.

But if not, nerf everyone else.

 

[Cress!]

After playing the newest update a bit more, I think that Fthrow kills earlier, but that's the only change I'm seeing and that may just be placebo.

 

[Fancykong]

Wii Twerk Trainer is in a special event for 2GGT: FOW Saga right now! Check it out on Twitch

 

[fatman.spam]

What is the best way to train with WFT? for example mostly train movement or special techskill etc.

 

[⑨ball]

What is the best way to train with WFT? for example mostly train movement or special techskill etc.

Train your reactions to opponents' common option in different states by playing as many people as you can. Movement and techskill mean nothing if you don't have an idea of where, when and why you should apply them.

 

[Jlp]

fatman.spam

⑨ball is totally right but there are somethings you can practice but they are not necessarily unique to WFT.

Practice perfect pivots, I find it's great with Ftilt or to just to out space your opponents moves.
B-Reverse is a great tool to trick you opponent when landing on stage. It's also great to use with a fully charged SS as your opponent might not expect it.
Also RAR B-Reverse is a great tool to fake an approach and because you can jump out of SS you are sometimes able to swiftly punish a whiffed move or jump back.
And learn the useful Header Cancel angles e.g. Ftilt, Reverse Jab, Backwards Header.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Wii Twerk Trainer is in a special event for 2GGT: FOW Saga right now! Check it out on Twitch

LOL how did I just see this? anywho, that special event I participated in was so fun! lol I had a blast, even tho I lost haha XD

 

[⑨ball]

fatman.spam

⑨ball is totally right but there are somethings you can practice but they are not necessarily unique to WFT.

Practice perfect pivots, I find it's great with Ftilt or to just to out space your opponents moves.
B-Reverse is a great tool to trick you opponent when landing on stage. It's also great to use with a fully charged SS as your opponent might not expect it.
Also RAR B-Reverse is a great tool to fake an approach and because you can jump out of SS you are sometimes able to swiftly punish a whiffed move or jump back.
And learn the useful Header Cancel angles e.g. Ftilt, Reverse Jab, Backwards Header.

I just saw #'s post in the advanced tech thread talking about jab 1 revival, which is one of the ways I've always done it and the way it's described as "actual jab header" in the guide. This made me think we should list out and name them all to make sure we're all on the same page and things like the backwards header don't get lost in old threads. I'll try to have that up soon.

 

[Cress!]

Yay I finally did it

 

[ぱみゅ]

#Dedicationgorls

 

[Robert Lee]

Anyone have tips how to fight against king dedede? I find it pretty tough considering his large range on his attacks and his low cooldown time on his down tilt.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Camp him hard and juggle him hard.
He lacks in two key areas: Approaching and landing.
WFT has good projectiles and amazing burst options to keep DDD out, and combos and juggles that just overwhelm him.
There's also your superior offstage game.

It is a very dangerous matchup not to know, but once you're familiar with his limited and slow (though strong) options, you can just abuse his hideous disadvantaged state to beat him.

 

[Robert Lee]

Yeah I been playing defensive and camping but his aerial game is very superior to outrange wii fit trainer's aerial attacks especially his neutral aerial that lets him hit wii fit trainer out of the juggle. Even being able to edgeguard her with his multiple jump. His ground game is good to keep wii fit trainer out of the way in which I had to respect with his spacing.

 

[Jlp]

Robert Lee Dedede is pretty scary since he can kill super early. Idk really how you should play the match up specifically with WFT but I recommend playing a very safe game. It can be quite difficult to do through an entire match tho. Use charged and uncharged SS frequently to rack up damage and force an approach. Make sure to pay attention to how your opponent approaches you and look for an opening.

 

[⑨ball]

ぱみゅ, nailed the safest strategy imo. DDD can't rush you down or chase you very well, so his best option in neutral is to space you out. If you camp him, he'll have to make some big commitments that aren't in his favor.

If you feel better playing up close, get familiar with ftilt's range and stay just outside of it, keeping SS stocked for footsies, and wavebouncing to bait and condition. Prime header shots to lead your way in after resets.

Last but not least, keep a sharper eye out for nair opportunities. DDD dies to nair>usmash at around 70 with DB and 90 raw and being a long ranged heavy,he will give you much bigger windows to catch him with it.

 

[Skyfox2000]

So I have a friend that is intrested in picking up Wii Fit Trainer. Are there a guide that I can show him? (A video would be nice)

 

[Lakuto]

So y'all remember the "6 Falcon 1 Dair" video (http://gfycat.com/DependentEarlyBlowfish) and the insane amount of hitlag.

Does this apply to WFT's side-B by any chance when she hits the ball? Or this does not apply with items?

My second question: does Deep Breathing affects significantly aerial damage so it can be safer to approach on shield? Or it shouldn't be taken in consideration because neglectable?

 

[⑨ball]

It applies to the ball. I mention it alot in my edgeguarding tips sine it's the most effective way to 2 frame characters like G&W who have lots of invincibility, speed, and large hitboxes. It can also extend the invincibility on usmash in case you're wondering.

DB definitely makes everything safer. The biggest thing to consider in most cases are the opponents' jump OoS options. Characters with fast forward facing aerials like Shiek aren't really dettered by the extra shield stun,but lots of other characters have to rely on shield drop stuff which will lose to shield and in lots of cases setup hard punish option selects. Just space yourself well and be aware of their best OoS stuff.

 

[Lakuto]

It applies to the ball.

That's cool. I'll to see what I can do with it. It would be cool if there was an actual formula up there to calculate the exact number of added frames on the moves.

DB definitely makes everything safer. The biggest thing to consider in most cases are the opponents' jump OoS options. Characters with fast forward facing aerials like Shiek aren't really dettered by the extra shield stun,but lots of other characters have to rely on shield drop stuff which will lose to shield and in lots of cases setup hard punish option selects.

So crossing-up the aerials depending on the OoS options seems like the important thing to keep in mind. Thanks!

 

[⑨ball]

There is.

You're pretty much just tacking on the hitlag to whatever active frame hits.

Hitlag is (((d/2.6)+5)*h*e)

D is the attack's damage
H is the attack's hitlag modifer
E is 1.5 if the attack has the electric attribute, or 1 if it doesn't.

WFT's hitlag modifiers in the Human Anatomy thread are still accurate too if you need them.

There's also a really neat tool featured on Kurogane's that does that and more.


---
Crossing up in general is good for WFT, but it's better when the opponent's OoS aerials are slower in back than they are in front. As such there's no real need to cross up someone like Mario if you're looking for safety, best to let him try burst options or grounded normals rather than give him easy access to bair oos.

 

[moofpi]

Hey does anyone know how to get a hold of Waveguider? Zero wants to talk to him about his Best Player For Each Character series.

 

[Jlp]

I've been using forward F-tilt to punish my opponent a lot lately and it's been working out pretty well but I find it misses a lot of the time against smaller characters which becomes heartbreaking since I think I would be winning more had the moves connected. This mainly happens when the opponent lands back on stage and sort of ducks doing so.

I guess my question is..

what move do you use most often to punish an opponent?

aaaand what move do you use to hit small opponents like MK, DHD, Olimar, Pikachu?

 

[Lakuto]

I've been using forward F-tilt to punish my opponent a lot lately and it's been working out pretty well but I find it misses a lot of the time against smaller characters which becomes heartbreaking since I think I would be winning more had the moves connected. This mainly happens when the opponent lands back on stage and sort of ducks doing so.

I guess my question is..

what move do you use most often to punish an opponent?

aaaand what move do you use to hit small opponents like MK, DHD, Olimar, Pikachu?

I usually go for the back hit of Fair to Ftilt. It combos after 65% , you can decide to do the front or back hit of Ftilt and it works on shorter opponents.

Edit: this is option needs you to be airborn though. If grounded, go for Bair OoS if you are in a good position.

 

[Robert Lee]

Tips or suggestions how to fight corrin? Corrin is a tough character to fight against due to his/her sword range in addition to hard to combo against since their aerial and ground attack comes out faster and is good to wall out wii fit trainer.

 

[⑨ball]

Tips or suggestions how to fight corrin? Corrin is a tough character to fight against due to his/her sword range in addition to hard to combo against since their aerial and ground attack comes out faster and is good to wall out wii fit trainer.

Corrin's not really faster than WFT. It's a toss up on moves where we have advantage sometimes and others he does, but it'll typically feel like it due to his range.

Anyway treat Corrin like you'd treat the other characters that outrange you. Force them to commit with good zoning, and wreck space control with SS. Footsies are always super difficult to play against swordies, but they can be done too if you've got a good handle on her hitboxes.

So I have a friend that is intrested in picking up Wii Fit Trainer. Are there a guide that I can show him? (A video would be nice)

Excercise Everyday to Help Tone Your Body: The WFT Compendium, Index, and FAQ

Tons of guides and info here. Some are videos, but nothing completely encompassing everything yet. But it's already in the works. (:

 

[Fancykong]

I've been practicing my SS buffered shield drops and Deep Breathing buffered shield drops, as well as Deep Breathing ledge get ups. Basically, hammering some movement options. Honestly, platforms in general seem to extremely benefit WFT a lot. It feels like I'm on a playground!

 

[Lakuto]

Personally, I have been practicing ledge-trumping with the side B. Doing causes the ball to be just above your head after the ledge-trump (you basically have to snap the ledge with side b before your heabutt comes out).

That way, if the trump is succesful, you can spike with side b your opponent to death without worrying about the ball interupting the spike.
If the trump is not succesful (opponent buffer an option), you can potentialy Fair the ball that can iniate a combo if the opponent roll for exemple. Or you can Nair > Fair the ball to de-stale your killing moves.

Next step for me would be platform movement as Fancykong said and implementing more Nair1 > Usmash in my punish game.

 

[⑨ball]

The bulk of the new header thread had been updated (aka all the video examples and names).

The only main thing left to add is text and I'll get around to that soon.

 

[Champ Gold]

Tips or suggestions how to fight corrin? Corrin is a tough character to fight against due to his/her sword range in addition to hard to combo against since their aerial and ground attack comes out faster and is good to wall out wii fit trainer.

I suggest using header for spacing and using projectiles off stage.

There's also using a few grabs to mix it up. Getting up close and personal with Corrin won't make him dangerous

 

[Lakuto]

Works less on fast fallers. If they don't DI away, this follow up catches jumps most of the time and sometimes airdodges. Note that it doesn't register as a combo though (except when they DI in maybe).

I tried it with DI with some characters but not all of them yet so I can't say much about this (practicing with DI is constraining...)