The VSDJ Guide - [OP Updated 3/10/09]

[Trillion]

Demonstrational Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwjY6TUYP0

Here's the idea. Approaching with Sonic can be hard. We all know that. This is a new idea I had. We can abuse the infinite side - b jump to give us new approach options.

Properties

The VSDJ goes higher than a normal jump and allows Sonic to move with a higher degree of DI than a normal jump. Also, it can be fastfalled. When moving backwards in the VSDJ, Sonic has more DI than when he is moving forward in the VSDJ. I attribute this to the fact that the side-B starts pulling you back a bit as you charge which might make it so you are experiencing a boost in DI. If you try to fastfall, then you can land and get an attack out faster than if you just fell normally and attacked. The downside is that if you fastfall, then you don't have enough time to get another spin dash out in time to keep the infinite jump going. So, if you are going to fastfall, then you better be sure that you are going to be landing and attacking. This isn't much of a problem as long as you are reading your opponent well and are planning ahead properly, but your opponent may pick up on the fast falling and be able to predict when an attack is coming.

The beginning of the jump has a hitbox, where if someone is too close, they get hit for 7% (i need to check that number....) with some strangely strong knockback. So, if someone gets too close, they will get pushed back away. The hitbox is not very big and its unlikely that it will play much of a role in any match, but it's at least worth noting.

If they try to approach you as you do it, they have to predict where you will be, which is easily changed. If they don't, and they end up inside your landing area, then simply doing it again will damage and knock them away with intersting knockback direction and will get them off of you.

Uses

We can use any attack directly out of it. Smashes, Tilts, Jabs, Dash Attacks, DACUS(I forgot to show those in the vid), Grabs (Also, not in the vid), Specials, Aerials. We can vary up when it is that we use the aerials and specials while we are in the air from the VSDJ. We can change how long we charge the spin dash before using the jump. We can use the spin dash. We can spin shot. We can spin dash shield cancel so that we land safely in our shields. We can use the spindash shield cancel to land into an instant side step out of the VSDJ. We have a ton of options of what we can do out of this.

Another thing you could mention is that you can z-drop / z-catch items during the SDJ
which is supercool.

Infzy provides us with an intersting use/property of the VSDJ. This makes for an even better way to approach because you can catch Diddy's bananas, zss power suit armor pieces, snake grenades, peach turnips, wario bike pieces, link/t. link bombs, and ROB's top!! Good info Infzy. I have a kind of another idea that might be able to be added to this too. If you z drop an item at say the peak of his vsdj and it hits someone, then i bet you can fast fall and catch it before even landing.

So, it can be used for approaching, mindgames, and it has a lot of options. Add the mindgames that come from spinshot and spin dash shield cancel into the mix of it and it becomes even more mindgamey. I think this could be an incredibly helpful way of approaching if done correctly.

you can wall jump out of SDJ.

What exactly all the uses of this could be are dependent on the player, but unfortunately I haven't experimented with this yet. I'll update with more info on this too.

Approaching in Different Situations

this is viable becuae it adds another dmenstion to sonic's approach game and most importantly it can be abandoned and reentered in seemless transition to/out or other approaches/ strategies. it certainly has the potential to maintain movement while avoiding projecitles too, and against grab happy opponents like D3, IC's and at the early game, Falco. i also think this will have an effect on opponents who rely on short hopped aerials as a primary approach, due to the hieght this appraoch gives you, they would have to adjust considering that you will be higher than thier SH, and your mobility is higher in SDVJ.

Projeciles: Assume you see a projectile coming at you. You have several options. You could just shield cancel if you are starting the spin, if you are in the air, you can just mid air dodge, if you are falling you can midair dodge to shield or just mid air jump, or if you already messed up and wasted you mid air jump then just spring. In most situations, you SHOULD be able to act in time to avoid taking a projectile.

Edge Guarding

It all depends on what you want to do. The easiest use of it is mixing up the timing on back airs, as well as better setting up for them. For example, an opponent attempting to avoid back air is going to want to recover high. To try and get that, normally Sonic might have to double jump. With VSDJ you get the height and keep your second jump. So you could simply bair out of a VSDJ if you're at the appropriate height, or double jump out of a VSDJ if you still need more height. Furthermore, you can use VSDJ -> Double Jump to throw of your opponent's timing in evading bair. Note that you can fast fall after VSDJ. You could do something like VSDJ -> Fast fall below opponent's height -> Double Jump -> Bair.

On the flip side, you could use it to get higher than the opponent, then surprise them with a fast fall Fair.

I also use it for weird spring gimp timings. Getting height with VSDJ allows you drop the Spring really early and really get into your opponent's head.

With dair, you can be flashy and go for a stage spike behind their back, but I haven't used it for anything practical yet.

Nair can be used in pretty much every way described.

Uair can be used like bair, for the most part. Can probably be used like fair (fast fallen) for a surprise/mixup/flashiness.

The Bad

There is a downside however. The VSDJ is not as fast of an approach as simply running at the opponent. This robs Sonic of his greatest strength: his running speed. You shouldn't try to use this as your only approach.

 

[4nace]

Sweet, why jump regularly when you can jump and always have a hit box??

 

[Trillion]

Exactly, i forgot that in the op lol.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh so this was what people were referring to when they said Sonic could abuse the infinite-side-B jump buffer system! Cool stuff Magnum, and the video helped me a lot as I am a much more visual learner than I am having to see stuff written/preached to me.

While I am quite skeptical of using this as an approach (ecluding projectiles, this is actually a nice switchup/fakeout thingy from having to use a SpinShot/PS run/SDJ/whatever probably won't have as much success as the former 3 mentioned!), it is only yet another way to move around the map, and in a pretty cool fashion to! I defenitely will try to start to put VSDJ into my gaming style no doubt about that!

 

[4nace]

I always like how you can move back further than you can move forward which should definitely help mess up some people trying to space against you.
It also seems like a great way to get people to approach you thinking you dont have many options in and out of it when really we can be in full control!


Great video though, much more useful than some of the previous Sonic how-tos =)

 

[Trillion]

@Kinzer- Glad you like the vid. The VSDJ is a little slower than we would probably like so of course you shouldn't try to use this as your only approach. I also, want to add a list of projectiles that he can cancel by using it since it DOES have a hitbox. If they try to approach you as you do it, they have to predict where you will, be which is easily changed. If they don't, and they end up inside your landing area, then simply doing it again will damage and knock them away with intersting knockback direction and will get them off of you.

@4nace- it IS more easy to move backward than forward, i attribute this to the fact that the side b starts pulling you back a bit as you charge which might make it so you are experiencing a boost in DI. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's it. Also, the VSDJ moves you higher than a normal jump does. I don't know if that's useful for much, but it's nice to know.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not sure how reliable that hitbox is. It seems to m/be the hitbox is just as big as Sonic in his ball form and would not be cancelling out any projectiles on a consistent basis anytime soon.

 

[Trillion]

I'm not sure how reliable that hitbox is. It seems to m/be the hitbox is just as big as Sonic in his ball form and would not be cancelling out any projectiles on a consistent basis anytime soon.

Probably not, but I can hope right? Ideally, you wouldn't need to do that in the first place if you were using it carefully. Like you see a projectile, you just shield cancel if you are starting the spin, if you are in the air, you just mid air dodge, if you are falling you midair dodge to shield of just mid air jump, or if you already messed up and wasted you mid air jump then just spring. In most situations, you SHOULD e able to act in time to avoid taking a projectile. Really, for the most part, you should be able to apply this same method to any kind of attack with a few exceptions. Most likely, you wont be able to avoid the tornado with this very well, but maybe. Some attacks with big hitboxes like that might be able to really kill this, but for the most part, I think it's pretty safe. The problem is that it might be TOO safe that it can't be utilized as effectively as would be hoped.

In smash, as in all aspects of life, there is a general rule. The higher the risk, the higher the potential gain and the lower the risk, the lower the potential gain. This, being low risk (at least, I think it is), might turn out to not be too effective. But, with all the options it has, I don't see how it could hurt to use sometimes as long as you mix up what you do with it and mix it up with other approaches.

 

[Kinzer]

I guess, if a man can dream. Just don't expect any help from me about that. XD

P.S. you're absolutely right. While somethings don't turn out to be as good as they could be, it's still something we can work with, it being what we have here in front of us. Indeed it is better than not having it at all, and there's no point in worrying about "what if."

Though I think you're a little bit short-minded about this being useful against the Tornado my good friend. You yourself pointed out that the VSDJ gets a little bit more height than a full-jump would, and even if it is a little boost, it might be exactly what you need to get above MK and hit him out of that silly ol' Mach Tornado with the plethora of options Sonic has to beat it.

At least you pointed out to me about how this might be a bad idea with approaching an Ike who isn't moving, who is only KNOWN for his long-range hits that hit like Semis.

 

[Trillion]

Though I think you're a little bit short-minded about this being useful against the Tornado my good friend. You yourself pointed out that the VSDJ gets a little bit more height than a full-jump would, and even if it is a little boost, it might be exactly what you need to get above MK and hit him out of that silly ol' Mach Tornado with the plethora of options Sonic has to beat it.

At least you pointed out to me about how this might be a bad idea with approaching an Ike who isn't moving, who is only KNOWN for his long-range hits that hit like Semis.

That's what I was hoping might be the case for Metaknight, but the problem is that he can just rise up higher and catch us before we are able to hit him. So, sometimes it might work, but mostly probably not.

You COULD, use it on Ike to some degree as long as you space yourself properly. My thought would be that you wouldn't want to try to land right into an attack and most aerials directly out of it probably wouldnt work so well either. You'd want to use it into a spin shot or just use it to move closer a little bit before starting some other approach or something like that. Against someone like Kirby though, you could get right up next to them with it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I rather like this idea, but not all of it. It's like doing full-hopped aerials, which isn't the height your opponent is at. I do rather like the backwards VSDJ to stutterstep F-smash. Might even become Salmon Smash and gain incredibly distance

 

[Umby]

Seeing as I am unable to watch the video, I say blatantly that you should mention its use in edgeguarding.

 

[Trillion]

Seeing as I am unable to watch the video, I say blatantly that you should mention its use in edgeguarding.

Good point, I hadn't really experimented with it too much in edgeguarding situations. The best thing I had come up with was after knocking someone off the side, you could run and b-reverse a spin dash and then use it to vsdj backwards and then try for a dair stage spike by dairing facing toward the stage. Using it to position for a dair away from the stage is good too. I haven't done much with it for edgegauding like I said, but if you have anything to add about its uses for that than please do add them and I will try to get them added to the op and make a video of it.

 

[Kinzer]

Well Magnum, that's why we have Homing Attack.

As bad as it is, it's actually a very decent move to use when you're above Meta Knight, and you don't shorten the start-up time.

And besides, it's not like we don't still have our double jump out of the VSDJ.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Obviously I prefer spinshot. That out of the way:

I've been playing around with b-reversed vSDJs. Especially bairing out of them.

Too sexy. Like RAR'd bairs, but over 9000 times sexier.

 

[Camalange]

Hm...I could see VSDJ > ASC being really awesome in matches, interesting stuff Magnum.

MK Tornado - VSDJ over - Punish with Dair/HA

Is pretty sexy too.

 

[thecatinthehat]

so more b-reversed hawtness.

b-reversed vSDJ > bair > spinshot > fair/bair.

OMG it's orgasmic.

 

[Umby]

Good point, I hadn't really experimented with it too much in edgeguarding situations. The best thing I had come up with was after knocking someone off the side, you could run and b-reverse a spin dash and then use it to vsdj backwards and then try for a dair stage spike by dairing facing toward the stage. Using it to position for a dair away from the stage is good too. I haven't done much with it for edgegauding like I said, but if you have anything to add about its uses for that than please do add them and I will try to get them added to the op and make a video of it.

It all depends on what you want to do. The easiest use of it is mixing up the timing on back airs, as well as better setting up for them. For example, an opponent attempting to avoid back air is going to want to recover high. To try and get that, normally Sonic might have to double jump. With VSDJ you get the height and keep your second jump. So you could simply bair out of a VSDJ if you're at the appropriate height, or double jump out of a VSDJ if you still need more height. Furthermore, you can use VSDJ -> Double Jump to throw of your opponent's timing in evading bair. Note that you can fast fall after VSDJ. You could do something like VSDJ -> Fast fall below opponent's height -> Double Jump -> Bair.

On the flip side, you could use it to get higher than the opponent, then surprise them with a fast fall Fair.

I also use it for weird spring gimp timings. Getting height with VSDJ allows you drop the Spring really early and really get into your opponent's head.

With dair, you can be flashy and go for a stage spike behind their back, but I haven't used it for anything practical yet.

Nair can be used in pretty much every way described.

Uair can be used like bair, for the most part. Can probably be used like fair (fast fallen) for a surprise/mixup/flashiness.

 

[JayBee]

nice.

this is viable becuae it adds another dmenstion to sonic's approach game and most importantly it can be abandoned and reentered in seemless transition to/out or other approaches/ strategies. it certainly has the potential to maintain movement while avoiding projecitles too, and against grab happy opponents like D3, IC's and at the early game, Falco. i also think this will have an effect on opponents who rely on short hopped aerials as a primary approach, due to the hieght this appraoch gives you, they would have to adjust considering that you will be higher than thier SH, and your mobility is higher in SDVJ.

It seems to be a theme this last month that the best sonic techs/ideas we come up with are more of less reiterations of what was found out when the game first came out. well done. now it is up to the sonci boards to try and discuss the maximum potential/ weaknesses of this approach, as well as how frequently to use it, and it what matchups will show the best benefit.

I for one will work this out for a while and if i find some sweet combinations/applications, i'll post in the Lab.

EDIT:
just noticed that at the start of "What U Need" there is a VSDJ edgegaurd attempt that ended with spring. nice.

 

[infomon]

You've neglected that you can fastfall the (V)SDJ. This has some interesting properties.

Fastfalling the VSDJ is much nicer if you're going to use ground move afterwards. VSDJ > fastfall > Dsmash is much nicer than just the VSDJ > Dsmash you show in the vid.

However, if you fastfall, you don't have enough time to charge the side-B before you hit the ground, so fastfalling is a bad idea if you want to do repeated VSDJs. So plan in advance, if you can.

However, even though it's a bit slower, there's actually an advantage to fastfalling repeated (V)SDJs... read on for details.

And besides, it's not like we don't still have our double jump out of the VSDJ.

Actually...... *sigh* VSDJ'ing is one of the easy ways that Sonic's "spindash-tripping" becomes noticeable (where spindashes behave stupidly about our spindash jump data, and we spindash off the ground such that our midair-jump is unavailable).

I might have forgotten the details.... but jump > double-jump > ASC shield-cancel (you are now in the "spindash-trip" state). VSDJ, notice you can't jump out of it... and as you're landing the VSDJ, do another one (the "VSDJ bounce" as was demonstrated lots in the vid). Depending on a very subtle time difference, you may or may not be able to jump out of the second VSDJ.

Suppose you're using side-B (note that VSDJ hopping can be done with either side-B or down-B lol, although side-B is smoother). If you land during side-B's start-up frames (before Sonic gets his aura), then you're not doing the "smooth" VSDJ bouncing (since you're not buffering the jump before landing); however your jump data is restored and you can definitely jump out of the VSDJ. Fastfalling a VSDJ is one way to ensure you're getting this! If you don't fastfall the VSDJ, then if you're timing your side-B's fast enough (that is, you use the side-B asap between the previous VSDJ and landing on the ground, such that as you land your side-B's aura is already out), then your spindash jump data will keep its previous value; if your midair jump was gone previously, then it's still gone.

So that's something to watch out for Sorry if it's confusing.

 

[Kinzer]

...

... Well, the Spring should help, afterall the VSDJ is suppose to end like a little bit before you hit the ground or something.

It's oly going to pose a danger to you if you intend on doing a SDR after all this mess. Which I tend to keep a good eye on my jump data.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

hooray all cheer for magnum you have helped us possibly get one step closer to opening peoples eyes about sonic. This technique if used correctly and efficiently could prove to be very steak. Can't wait to see the moves that are pulled of with this little move.

 

[thecatinthehat]

hooray all cheer for magnum you have helped us possibly get one step closer to opening peoples eyes about sonic. This technique if used correctly and efficiently could prove to be very steak. Can't wait to see the moves that are pulled of with this little move.

This technique wasnt anything new. >_>

Magnum didnt discover it either <_<

 

[Trillion]

You've neglected that you can fastfall the (V)SDJ. This has some interesting properties.

Fastfalling the VSDJ is much nicer if you're going to use ground move afterwards. VSDJ > fastfall > Dsmash is much nicer than just the VSDJ > Dsmash you show in the vid.

However, if you fastfall, you don't have enough time to charge the side-B before you hit the ground, so fastfalling is a bad idea if you want to do repeated VSDJs. So plan in advance, if you can.


However, even though it's a bit slower, there's actually an advantage to fastfalling repeated (V)SDJs... read on for details.

Yeah, i didn't really explain that or show it very well in the vid. If you look at the part where I do tilts, I was fast falling most of those, but I forgot to type that part into the op. Your right though, I do need to address this.

Actually...... *sigh* VSDJ'ing is one of the easy ways that Sonic's "spindash-tripping" becomes noticeable (where spindashes behave stupidly about our spindash jump data, and we spindash off the ground such that our midair-jump is unavailable).

I might have forgotten the details.... but jump > double-jump > ASC shield-cancel (you are now in the "spindash-trip" state). VSDJ, notice you can't jump out of it... and as you're landing the VSDJ, do another one (the "VSDJ bounce" as was demonstrated lots in the vid). Depending on a very subtle time difference, you may or may not be able to jump out of the second VSDJ.

Suppose you're using side-B (note that VSDJ hopping can be done with either side-B or down-B lol, although side-B is smoother). If you land during side-B's start-up frames (before Sonic gets his aura), then you're not doing the "smooth" VSDJ bouncing (since you're not buffering the jump before landing); however your jump data is restored and you can definitely jump out of the VSDJ. Fastfalling a VSDJ is one way to ensure you're getting this! If you don't fastfall the VSDJ, then if you're timing your side-B's fast enough (that is, you use the side-B asap between the previous VSDJ and landing on the ground, such that as you land your side-B's aura is already out), then your spindash jump data will keep its previous value; if your midair jump was gone previously, then it's still gone.

So that's something to watch out for Sorry if it's confusing.

Perhaps, I am not doing it in the "smooth" way you described, because most of the time I did still have my mid air jump. There were times where if I watched closely, that I would see that I was actually jumping too soon and losing it that way, but for the most part, I wasnt losing it. I'll ahve to look into that further.

This technique wasnt anything new. >_>

Magnum didnt discover it either <_<

Yeah, I didn't really discover it, I just decided to try to implement it in a new, somewhat unique style. Perhaps, I can keep expanding on all of this and just turn this into a VSDJ overall guide.

 

[infomon]

Well, you weren't often using your midair jump before starting a VSDJ, either.... so it's all good.

Oh, another thing you could mention is that you can z-drop / z-catch items during the SDJ
which is supercool

but yea great vid yo. I'll have to try approaching with this rather than just using it every now and then as a mixup / get-out-of-bad-spot move.

 

[Trillion]

Well, you weren't often using your midair jump before starting a VSDJ, either.... so it's all good.

Oh, another thing you could mention is that you can z-drop / z-catch items during the SDJ
which is supercool

but yea great vid yo. I'll have to try approaching with this rather than just using it every now and then as a mixup / get-out-of-bad-spot move.

I didn't know you could z drop and catch items during it. Thanks for that info. I'll have to make another vid with some of this other information you guys are giving me. That makes this an even better way to approach because you can catch Diddy's bananas, zss power suit armor pieces, snake grenades, peach turnips, wario bike pieces, link/t. link bombs, and ROB's top!! Good info Infzy. I have a kind of another idea that might be able to be added to this too. If you z drop an item at say the peak of his vsdj and it hits someone, then i bet you can fast fall and catch it before even landing.

 

[4nace]

This technique wasnt anything new. >_>

Magnum didnt discover it either <_<

Someone's a debbie downer haha.


But, I definitely think Magnum is advancing the use of the VSDJ approach, especially if he uses this topic as an overall guide and includes more videos with its Z-grabbing ability and uses for edge-guarding / countering some of the most annoying moves in the game ie Tornado spam.


I really like the idea that it is higher than a normal jump and can be used to get over Nado Spamming Jerks!

 

[BlueTerrorist]

In one of my past vids, I killed a ROB with a SDJ I can link you if you want (It's already in the video thread). Yeah, use this tech. Nobody wants to get damaged for free so you'll always force a reaction. It's up to you to take advantage of that.

 

[MarKO X]

I am loving reverse VSDJ > Bair. Especially for edgeguarding.

 

[thecatinthehat]

you can wall jump out of SDJ.

WTF.

 

[aeghrur]

VSDJ also has better aerial acceleration/aerial control than our regular jumps doesn't it?

 

[Kinzer]

you can wall jump out of SDJ.

WTF.

Great, can you footstool out of it too?!

Aegs, I am not sure.

 

[infomon]

Great, can you footstool out of it too?!

Aegs, I am not sure.

lol actually, I thought of that last night and was experimenting this morning.

You can't

The best you can do is use your second jump out of VSDJ and immediately footstool

but that's not very good.

 

[Trillion]

VSDJ also has better aerial acceleration/aerial control than our regular jumps doesn't it?

Yes, I believe that is true. That is why I took the time in the video to show you that you can jump the whole final destination in only two reverse vsdj's. I may have made too big of a deal out of it though, since you might be able to do the same with just full jumps but I didn't think you could....

lol actually, I thought of that last night and was experimenting this morning.

You can't

The best you can do is use your second jump out of VSDJ and immediately footstool

but that's not very good.

I think there are other ways to do it though. What about if you mid air dodge as soon as you begin moving upwards?

Or what about that fair to footstool thing that had been discussed in w/e other thread (I can't pull it off even normally yet though....)? Also, you can begin fair very very early as soon as you start moving upward if your fingers are fast enough.

You MIGHT be able to hit with all of it but that last hit that knocks them away and then land the footstool. Then spring, dair, (maybe even spring to dair) fast fall nair or fair or even DI forward and maybe hit a bair. I think it has a lot of possibilities if you can do a fair footstool out of this because of the height you will be at.

My favorite idea would be fair footstool fast fall nair or spring to dair and then jab lock.

I'm a little busy tonight, but I'll see if I can't get some testing done on this soon.

 

[Kinzer]

VSDJ does add mindgames though Magnum, don't be so down silly.

besides if we have a better way to do the first jump, that's good enough for me. The height/hitbox alone should be enough to get you to start doing it anyway.

 

[Trillion]

VSDJ does add mindgames though Magnum, don't be so down silly.

besides if we have a better way to do the first jump, that's good enough for me. The height/hitbox alone should be enough to get you to start doing it anyway.

Oh, dont worry, im not at all down. I'm trying to remain realistic about its limitations and not be like zomg this is the ultimate sonic everything!!! I think its good for some stuff and bad for some stuff, but I'm learning more and more things I can do with it and reasons why it could be implemented effectively.

 

[JayBee]

i tried adding this to my game tonight in freindles against my freind, and it seems okay to use every once in a while, granted i felt a bit awkward at times. I guess i'll post one vid of me trying it more.