The Vote Count Is (Finally) In: Sora Wins

[pupNapoleon]

For me, there are several big deals about Sora making it in. Sure, Disney partnership, huge legacy character, more from 'stingy' Squeenix... but also, it puts to rest that Nintendo clearly stated Bayonetta won the ballot. When she 'won,' the statement had three qualifiers- she won (top 5) of (one region, Europe) as far as realizable (vague as hell) options. In other words, she was never the winner... I'm not even sure if there was a chance it could have been anyone else. Perhaps she was fasttracked, and we could have gotten Inkling instead... or... no, I think if it could have been anyone else, it likely would have. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this aspect.

But I digress. The ballot, six years ago, specifically stated that the data would be used for future games, as well. At the time, it was easy to think this would mean other series', but even since we have officially known it was for the next Smash game (now a complete game), the ballot keeps showing up.

Do you think Sora could have gotten in if he weren't the top character? Do you debate that he may have been the highest voted character? Was he perhaps going to be the final character of the first fighters pass, or were two passes always going to happen, and he was always going to come out 12th (which I personally believe, since we have all the KH games coming out alongside him).

I guess I want to know, what are the implications, for you, that Sora was the poll winner? How did this aspect of the direct make you feel?

And, less related, given the clear knowledge that Smash Ultimate was in the works when it was, and that DLC for Smash 4 (perhaps the base game as well) had to have been negotiated with Smash Ultimate in mind... could this be possible for a deluxe version as well- that all the third parties negotiated were negotiated not just for Ultimate, but for a premium version of it, putting the work of Sakurai and the Tekken lead into practice, for a more complete version for a Switch Pro, with rollback netcode?

 

[Chiroz]

So most of this is opinion based, but I'll chime in a bit.

If Sora was not a even a top 5 character, I doubt he would get in. The reason he didn't make it into Smash 4 or Base Ult seems obvious with all the comments from Sakurai and even the tag itself. The negotiation was probably hard and possibly not worth it if he wasn't a fan favorite at all.

The only char I think had a chance of beating Sora in the poll was either a returning favorite (like say Wolf) or Cloud (who might have been ****ed through the sheer number of FF chars people want, dividing his popular franchise fanbase votes). I honestly doubt many other chars could contend with Sora.

It's possible he was planned to be the final fighter of the first pass and got delayed to the 2nd, but I slightly doubt it. I do think he was probably purposely left for last in DLC pack 2, but I don't know if I should believe without evidence that he was pushed from pack 1 to 2.

Honestly? It felt good to be kind of validated. I haven't played KH (I will soon) and I am not exactly a fan, but I have many many friends that are fans of Sora. I myself am a huge fan of FF and Cloud specifically, although I voted for Isaac in the poll, but it really irked me that I just couldn't see Bayo's pre-Smash popularity anywhere aside from the small boost from her sequel game being funded/released by Nintendo. Like Bayo just didn't have that mass following certain chars did and it always bothered me that she "won" (it also didn't help how stupidly broken the char was on release and even after 2-3 nerfs). Sora winning makes sense to me because the char is mad popular, so it makes me feel a bit redeemed in a sense.

Yes, since the moment Ultimate released and I saw Cloud on the base roster (before any DLC dropped) I was pretty sure that Nintendo's best move would have been to negotiate a "Complete Edition" (just like they negotiated Cloud, Ryu and Bayo to reappear on this game as well) to release on the next console gen, where they could just update it with a few dlc packs and patches. Starting a whole new game from scratch would take way too much effort and it would never amount to close to the content this game has. Plus renegotiating the characters you deem worthy of returning would just be hell.

I guess time will tell, but if Nintendo is smart, they went ahead and did that. Adding rollback could be one of the small features they decide to add to convince you to buy the game again.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, Sora having the most votes and the effort Nintendo went through to get him in sure explains his strong fan support. However, I would like to see the full Smash Ballot rankings with the number of votes and to see where Goku and Shrek are.

 

[Chiroz]

Well, Sora having the most votes and the effort Nintendo went through to get him in sure explains his strong fan support. However, I would like to see the full Smash Ballot rankings with the number of votes and to see where Goku and Shrek are.

While I assume you're being semi sarcastic, Goku and Shrek are both probably nerfed in real results due to people believing they weren't "real" possibilities. Lots of people who would vote for Goku didn't thinking even if he won 1st place, he wouldn't be included. I should know, I am one of those "lots of people".

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

****posting votes are always a weird subject.

On one hand, yes, Online Polling has always been risky, this video shows you why:

At the same time, ****posting by the likes of 4Chan simply can't compete with Smash's rabid fanbase. 4Chan's...............ehm.........."autism" to put in a way (as in,obsession with very specific stuff) can't compete with the Smash's fanbase. For every 2 to 5 Goku and Shrek votes, there were probably outnumbered by 20 K.Rool votes, 15 Castlevania votes, 30 Snake votes, and many, many, many, many Sora votes. Also remember Shrek is just a meme in the US, other countries have their meme votes, like Magnemite and Ronald Mcdonald in Japan, so meme votes were likely far more fractured than you think.

I don't think Russians or the Undead helped here either, i honestly believe Sora's votes were legitimate, as 2015 was still riding high on that KH3 hype. That game's announcement back in 2013 was a MONUMENTAL announcement, the only thing that could top it would be Half Life 3 beign announced for real.

Sora comes from the 10th best selling PS2 game, and was technically the best selling brand new IP for the PS2, and in general the PS2 was the best selling Console of all time, and has Disney appeal, plus presence in basically every major platform from each console generation. It's not as mainsteram as Minecraft, but its fanbase is extremely dedicated, only matched by the Sonic fanbase without suffering from the HUGE broken base said fanbase suffers from.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I'm surprised Sakurai didn't disqualify Sora for being owned by Disney, and unobtainable during the Smash Ballot. Wasn't the point of the "originating in a video game rule" so that it doesn't get too legally complicated to acquire the winner? The winner of the Smash Ballot was supposed to be the last DLC character of Smash 4. Bayonetta was declared the winner. So what gives? He worked so hard to get Sora in because he has the most votes and he first appeared in a video game, and first appearance apparently mattered more than difficulty acquiring the rights? Sakurai announced a fake winner so that the real winner could be added to the next game's DLC?

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I'm surprised Sakurai didn't disqualify Sora for being owned by Disney, and unobtainable during the Smash Ballot. Wasn't the point of the "originating in a video game rule" so that it doesn't get too legally complicated to acquire the winner? The winner of the Smash Ballot was supposed to be the last DLC character of Smash 4. Bayonetta was declared the winner. So what gives? He worked so hard to get Sora in because he has the most votes and he first appeared in a video game, and first appearance apparently mattered more than difficulty acquiring the rights? Sakurai announced a fake winner so that the real winner could be added to the next game's DLC?

Sora is a video game character, so he counts. He could be owned by ****ing Turner Broacasting and if Sakurai saw the negotations as possible, he would have gene out of his way. If the character is game original, it counts, it's not about the company.

As for the Ballot, i think in retrospect it was NEVER intended for Smash 4, as that game was nearing completion. In reality it was always meant for Ultimate and future entries, but Sakurai and Iwata did not want to announce a new Smash during 2015 when Smash 4 was still getting DLC.

Yes that means they essentially LIED about it, and the proof is in the pudding:

1-Years ago, a Smash 6 Job listing was found. it wasn't fake, as it was tracked to Bandai Namco themselves. Smash 6 didn't launch in 2015, but it launched development in 2015. This was confirmed by Sakurai himself, as he has stated Ultimate started development in 2015, just right after Smash 4 wrapped up development. The news of a new Smash game were hidden in plain sight, but almost everyone assumed it meant just the DLC or even was a mistake due to Smash 4 still being relatively new. You could argue that it was too soon for a new Smash game since Ultimate was announced just 2 years shy of Bayo's release as DLC, but you must remember that 64 and Melee's gap was just 2 years, that the Wii U was a failure so they needed a new "Main" System and probably wanted some Killer Apps released in the console's early life, and since Ultimate was gonna reuse a lot of assets (and Sakurai didn't have to worry about making a game for both platforms like he did with Smash 4) it made development easier, although some corners still had to be cut, namely Piranha Plant went from Base Game to DLC (notice how in Sora's presentation during the Video's intro, they group Piranha Plant with the Base Game newcomers instead of the DLC characters, plus he has a Entry in Palutena's Guidance and his own 50 second video in Smash Ultimate's website, which is reserved for Base Game characters)


2-Bayo was found to be added 2 weeks into the Ballot, i'm just gonna let Omega Tyrant speak for himelf here:

I'm really far back and catching up now, but this is a common sentiment in this thread that Bayonetta won the ballot legit and people who suspect she didn't are treated as conspiracists. However there is objective evidence Bayonetta was planned from before the Ballot and it was used afterward to justify her inclusion; dataminers found that of the Mario slots added in 1.0.6, one has the same exact stats as Zero Suit Samus, which were gradually changed over time to what became Bayonetta (another of the Mario slots has the same stats as Ike which became Cloud, and then in 1.0.8 when the final Mario slot was added it also had the same stats as Ike, which became Corrin). 1.0.6 dropped only two weeks after the Ballot launched, meaning there was really no way the Ballot was actually used to decide Bayo, and it appears to have been a sham in deciding DLC, while its real purpose was to be used to get data for future games, as the Japanese page said it could be used for (or Sakurai was initially planning more DLC based on the Ballot but decided at some point to save everything for a new Smash and instead made up the stuff about Bayonetta being the "Ballot winner" to avoid having to admit it ended up being used for a new Smash game).

This information isn't easily sourced since you have to look through the data yourself, but it can found in fighter_param if you know how to do that, and all the prominent dataminers confirmed it.

If you wanna look into more detail, this is the thread where the post originates and Omega goes into more detail in later posts if you are interested.

It's not that "The Ballot was Rigged for Bayo", it's that "Bayonetta was always going to be in Smash 4, she was just a cover up for the Ballot in Smash 4 as it was actually going to be used for Ultimate all along"

This is why when Bayo "won", they put "AMONG REALIZABLE CHARACTERS" with an asterix. She was the highest voted character...............if you exclude all the other ones that likely had more votes than her because they were:
-****post votes like Shrek or North Korea.
-Characters that Sakurai coulnd't add in Smash 4 as that game ended prodcution so they were saved for the next game: Sora, the Belmonts, Ridley, K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo & Kazooie.
-Characters that had more votes than Bayo, but were passed over because Sakurai had the above mentioned characters as priority as he simply couldn't add everyone due to time and resource constraints: Waluigi, Bomberman, Dixie Kong and Geno.


Yeah, it looks kinda scummy in hindsight, but i understand this was a white lie (well, maybe gray). They simply couldn't announce a new Smash game that soon, they waited for the Ballot to end on October and start right in November. This also fits with the Comment of a Former Mojang developer, who said that Steve took 5 years to negotiate and develop. This comment was made in Early October of 2020, fitting riiiight in with the development beginning of Smash Ultimate, meaning that yes, they were negotiating characters like Steve and Sora well in advance.

as for Sora being the winner for real or not, this time i actually believe that this is the real deal. Unlike Bayo whose games have been cult following games at best and Smash is the most exposure she has had to the average consumer. Sora, on the other hand, has enough Starpower to be mainstream and be a likely choice for fans to vote for:
-Kingdom Hearts was the 10th best selling KH game on PS2, the best selling console of all time, and was the best selling new IP for that system, and in an era where Zoomer nostalgia is booming, you bet a lot of the current generation was or is into Kingdom Hearts.
-Disney exposure, it's no secret that Disney is what attracted most people to KH, and if Disney is in a good position, KH is probably too.
-During the Smash Ballot, KH hype was still at an all time high. In 2013 KH3 was announced which was probably THE biggest news of E3 2013 outside of Smash, as that game was becoming infamous in the same way Duke Nukem Forever was, it was in limbo. The only other games that i can think had such big impact on their reveals were FF7 Remake, The Last Guardian, Shenmue 3 and Final Fantasy XV, which all share the same issue of KH3 of being in development hell for a long time. Even if KH3 didn't lived up to the expectations of most people, the fact that it was released and was at least not a disaster compared to the likes of DKF is no small feat.

I do believe Sora was more voted than the likes of DS and Chrom, the Belmonts, K.Rool and Ridley as KH's fanbase is large and vocal, the ONLY character who i think could have gotten more votes was Steve, who im actually shocked hasn't been mentioned as a big ballot choice as Minecraft is the best selling game of all time. The only reason i can think of, is that Minecraft's fanbase while huge, wasn't vocal during 2015, the era when the Ballot happened.

This may be hard to believe, but during 2014-2017, Minecraft wasn't that popular, most of the fans that played that game moved on and would not revisit that game until a few years later in 2019 (the game's 10th anniversary). During the mid 2010's MC was seen as the "Cringe" game (what didn't help is that in the 2010's Cringe Culture was also big, you can thank Commentary channels like Leafy for that), in the same way Fortnite is seen today (this is all part of a larger phenomenon, called "Popularity Polynomial") so during those days even if Minecraft was played by millions of people, those people were the silent majority that didn't even bothered to vote Steve on the Ballot, and the "Hardcore Gamers" either saw it as "Cringe" or if they did vote for Steve for the Ballot, it wasn't enough to outrank Sora. KH's fanbase and consumer base may not be as large as MC's, but they sure as Vocal and passionate, and 10 passionate fans can leave a bigger impact than a 100 consumers who play the game just because they like it or is the "popular thing".

What i am saying is tht if you think Steve's negative's reaction from certain fans back in 2020 were off, you don't wanna image how much more devisive he would have been during Smash 4 DLC.

So yeah, Sora won the Ballot.

 

[Chiroz]

****posting votes are always a weird subject.

On one hand, yes, Online Polling has always been risky, this video shows you why:

At the same time, ****posting by the likes of 4Chan simply can't compete with Smash's rabid fanbase. 4Chan's...............ehm.........."autism" to put in a way (as in,obsession with very specific stuff) can't compete with the Smash's fanbase. For every 2 to 5 Goku and Shrek votes, there were probably outnumbered by 20 K.Rool votes, 15 Castlevania votes, 30 Snake votes, and many, many, many, many Sora votes. Also remember Shrek is just a meme in the US, other countries have their meme votes, like Magnemite and Ronald Mcdonald in Japan, so meme votes were likely far more fractured than you think.

I don't think Russians or the Undead helped here either, i honestly believe Sora's votes were legitimate, as 2015 was still riding high on that KH3 hype. That game's announcement back in 2013 was a MONUMENTAL announcement, the only thing that could top it would be Half Life 3 beign announced for real.

Sora comes from the 10th best selling PS2 game, and was technically the best selling brand new IP for the PS2, and in general the PS2 was the best selling Console of all time, and has Disney appeal, plus presence in basically every major platform from each console generation. It's not as mainsteram as Minecraft, but its fanbase is extremely dedicated, only matched by the Sonic fanbase without suffering from the HUGE broken base said fanbase suffers from.

I mean, Goku is an extremely popular char that was probably nerfed due to the fact that people assume he won't be in, even if he was the most popular. If anything I'd say the meme is hating on Goku for no reason. Sure he isn't a video game character, but people who criticize others for wanting characters that are not strictly from video games yet have massive crossover with video game culture are more prevalent than those who push said characters in the first place (I don't put Shrek in the same boat because he lacks that massive crossover and he literally only started as a meme to diss on people who wanted chars like Goku).

I'm surprised Sakurai didn't disqualify Sora for being owned by Disney, and unobtainable during the Smash Ballot. Wasn't the point of the "originating in a video game rule" so that it doesn't get too legally complicated to acquire the winner? The winner of the Smash Ballot was supposed to be the last DLC character of Smash 4. Bayonetta was declared the winner. So what gives? He worked so hard to get Sora in because he has the most votes and he first appeared in a video game, and first appearance apparently mattered more than difficulty acquiring the rights? Sakurai announced a fake winner so that the real winner could be added to the next game's DLC?

The video game rule has nothing to do with rights. A ton of non-video game chars are much easier to obtain than video game chars. I mean as an example Namco actually holds all the rights to DBZ and their characters in video game appearances (with some limitations, like music and whatnot), I am sure that it would be much easier to negotiate with the company helping develop the game than a completely new company.

The video game rule is more about the legacy of Smash. Smash is an ode, a love letter, a living embodiment of video game history. Adding characters that aren't from video games muddies that, it changes what Smash is to something confusing (just a bunch of popular chars, which can still be very cool, but it's not as meaningful). It also opens the door to much more discussion on why a certain char is included above another, etc, which is a lot more hassle.


As explained by the post above me, Bayo was already decided before the ballot basically. She was always declared the winner amongst realizable characters, which we don't know what that means. That could literally mean anything at all, like possibly realizable chars were chars they could get rights in less than 1 month (1st and 2nd parties) or something like that, but since Bayo was already being developed, she counted.

I still kinda call BS on even that because I can't honestly see Bayo beating Cloud in a poll. I might be biased, but there's no way I'll believe that without at least seeing the raw data.

Sora is a video game character, so he counts. He could be owned by ****ing Turner Broacasting and if Sakurai saw the negotations as possible, he would have gene out of his way. If the character is game original, it counts, it's not about the company.

As for the Ballot, i think in retrospect it was NEVER intended for Smash 4, as that game was nearing completion. In reality it was always meant for Ultimate and future entries, but Sakurai and Iwata did not want to announce a new Smash during 2015 when Smash 4 was still getting DLC.

Yes that means they essentially LIED about it, and the proof is in the pudding:

1-Years ago, a Smash 6 Job listing was found. it wasn't fake, as it was tracked to Bandai Namco themselves. Smash 6 didn't launch in 2015, but it launched development in 2015. This was confirmed by Sakurai himself, as he has stated Ultimate started development in 2015, just right after Smash 4 wrapped up development. The news of a new Smash game were hidden in plain sight, but almost everyone assumed it meant just the DLC or even was a mistake due to Smash 4 still being relatively new. You could argue that it was too soon for a new Smash game since Ultimate was announced just 2 years shy of Bayo's release as DLC, but you must remember that 64 and Melee's gap was just 2 years, that the Wii U was a failure so they needed a new "Main" System and probably wanted some Killer Apps released in the console's early life, and since Ultimate was gonna reuse a lot of assets (and Sakurai didn't have to worry about making a game for both platforms like he did with Smash 4) it made development easier, although some corners still had to be cut, namely Piranha Plant went from Base Game to DLC (notice how in Sora's presentation during the Video's intro, they group Piranha Plant with the Base Game newcomers instead of the DLC characters, plus he has a Entry in Palutena's Guidance and his own 50 second video in Smash Ultimate's website, which is reserved for Base Game characters)


2-Bayo was found to be added 2 weeks into the Ballot, i'm just gonna let Omega Tyrant speak for himelf here:



If you wanna look into more detail, this is the thread where the post originates and Omega goes into more detail in later posts if you are interested.

It's not that "The Ballot was Rigged for Bayo", it's that "Bayonetta was always going to be in Smash 4, she was just a cover up for the Ballot in Smash 4 as it was actually going to be used for Ultimate all along"

This is why when Bayo "won", they put "AMONG REALIZABLE CHARACTERS" with an asterix. She was the highest voted character...............if you exclude all the other ones that likely had more votes than her because they were:
-****post votes like Shrek or North Korea.
-Characters that Sakurai coulnd't add in Smash 4 as that game ended prodcution so they were saved for the next game: Sora, the Belmonts, Ridley, K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo & Kazooie.
-Characters that had more votes than Bayo, but were passed over because Sakurai had the above mentioned characters as priority as he simply couldn't add everyone due to time and resource constraints: Waluigi, Bomberman, Dixie Kong and Geno.


Yeah, it looks kinda scummy in hindsight, but i understand this was a white lie (well, maybe gray). They simply couldn't announce a new Smash game that soon, they waited for the Ballot to end on October and start right in November. This also fits with the Comment of a Former Mojang developer, who said that Steve took 5 years to negotiate and develop. This comment was made in Early October of 2020, fitting riiiight in with the development beginning of Smash Ultimate, meaning that yes, they were negotiating characters like Steve and Sora well in advance.

as for Sora being the winner for real or not, this time i actually believe that this is the real deal. Unlike Bayo whose games have been cult following games at best and Smash is the most exposure she has had to the average consumer. Sora, on the other hand, has enough Starpower to be mainstream and be a likely choice for fans to vote for:
-Kingdom Hearts was the 10th best selling KH game on PS2, the best selling console of all time, and was the best selling new IP for that system, and in an era where Zoomer nostalgia is booming, you bet a lot of the current generation was or is into Kingdom Hearts.
-Disney exposure, it's no secret that Disney is what attracted most people to KH, and if Disney is in a good position, KH is probably too.
-During the Smash Ballot, KH hype was still at an all time high. In 2013 KH3 was announced which was probably THE biggest news of E3 2013 outside of Smash, as that game was becoming infamous in the same way Duke Nukem Forever was, it was in limbo. The only other games that i can think had such big impact on their reveals were FF7 Remake, The Last Guardian, Shenmue 3 and Final Fantasy XV, which all share the same issue of KH3 of being in development hell for a long time. Even if KH3 didn't lived up to the expectations of most people, the fact that it was released and was at least not a disaster compared to the likes of DKF is no small feat.

I do believe Sora was more voted than the likes of DS and Chrom, the Belmonts, K.Rool and Ridley as KH's fanbase is large and vocal, the ONLY character who i think could have gotten more votes was Steve, who im actually shocked hasn't been mentioned as a big ballot choice as Minecraft is the best selling game of all time. The only reason i can think of, is that Minecraft's fanbase while huge, wasn't vocal during 2015, the era when the Ballot happened.

This may be hard to believe, but during 2014-2017, Minecraft wasn't that popular, most of the fans that played that game moved on and would not revisit that game until a few years later in 2019 (the game's 10th anniversary). During the mid 2010's MC was seen as the "Cringe" game (what didn't help is that in the 2010's Cringe Culture was also big, you can thank Commentary channels like Leafy for that), in the same way Fortnite is seen today (this is all part of a larger phenomenon, called "Popularity Polynomial") so during those days even if Minecraft was played by millions of people, those people were the silent majority that didn't even bothered to vote Steve on the Ballot, and the "Hardcore Gamers" either saw it as "Cringe" or if they did vote for Steve for the Ballot, it wasn't enough to outrank Sora. KH's fanbase and consumer base may not be as large as MC's, but they sure as Vocal and passionate, and 10 passionate fans can leave a bigger impact than a 100 consumers who play the game just because they like it or is the "popular thing".

What i am saying is tht if you think Steve's negative's reaction from certain fans back in 2020 were off, you don't wanna image how much more devisive he would have been during Smash 4 DLC.

So yeah, Sora won the Ballot.

I agree with most of your post, but I think you might not be analyzing MC well enough. I don't have concrete data with me to back up any of my claims, but I think that MC specifically was more of a kid to preteen game since it's release. Smash has been dominated by fans from every iteration meaning there's a large population of the fan base that's old and comes from 64 and Melee.

That majority of that large part of the gaming population (pre 2010) still doesn't play MC, the thing is, the people who were kids and weren't part of the "gaming" community in a sense, have grown up and are now active in forums, polls, sites, content creation, etc. This leads to a wider acceptance of games like MC (post 2010), since that "generation" has always liked the game, they are just now grown enough to voice their opinions without being "overpowered" by the older gamers.

I don't think we have moved away from "cringe" culture. I think if a kid's game suddenly rose to the top of every single chart in 2022, most gamers would see it as cringe just the same (or just ignore it completely and never play it. But if it comes up in a poll of "most popular games of all time" you can bet those older gamers will cringe at any mention from this "new kid game"). If the game has sticking power though, 10 years down the line, the game would start to be viewed as a "masterpiece/classic" for sure.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

I agree with most of your post, but I think you might not be analyzing MC well enough. I don't have concrete data with me to back up any of my claims, butI think that MC specifically was more of a kid to preteen game since it's release. Smash has been dominated by fans from every iteration meaning there's a large population of the fan base that's old and comes from 64 and Melee.

That large part of the gaming population still doesn't play MC, the thing is, the people who were kids and weren't part of the "gaming" community in a sense, have grown up and are now active in forums, polls, sites, video creation, etc. This leads to a wider acceptance of games like MC, since that "generation" has always liked the game, they are just now grown enough to voice their opinions without being "overpowered" by the older gamers.

I don't think we have moved away from "cringe" culture. I think if a kid's game suddenly rose to the top of every single chart in 2022, most gamers would see it as cringe just the same. And if the game actually has sticking power, 10 years down the line, the game would start to be viewed as a "masterpiece/classic".

Yeah i know that. What i argue with MC is that after 2013, most of the people who were really into MC moved on, and now MC is back into the spotlight because people that grew up on it are playing it again. I just didn't explain myself well enough. But that only happened in 2018/2019 at the latest.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, the fact is Sakurai lied and gave us a false winner of the Ballot. The winner should not have been delayed into the next game. Sakurai should have started negotiations with the winner's company as soon as the votes were counted. And if Disney owned the winning character, he should disqualify that character whether they are from a video game or not to avoid the GoldenEye kind of legal trouble and make the runner-up that's owned by a video game company the winner. I wonder how many people who voted for Sora were actually trolling Sakurai and the Goku fans with votes for a Disney game character? It's like they found the perfect loophole for a famous animation/movie studio to be represented in a crossover about gaming. It's too bad the character I voted for (Tails) didn't win. You know what would be a better way to make sure the winner could be a realizable video game character? Put a company field with a drop down menu of all the video game companies who agreed to compete in the Smash Ballot. And any votes for characters that have their companies filled out wrong would be invalid votes. That way votes for Sora having his company at "Square Enix" would be discarded because Square only develops his games and he is really owned by Disney. At least, that would be how I would do it if I was Sakurai and in charge of the Smash Ballot. Saying the Ballot winner would come in Smash 4's DLC, announcing a fake winner that was being developed anyway, and announcing the real winner six years later at the end of the next game's DLC is very false advertisement that could warrant a lawsuit.

 

[Chiroz]

Well, the fact is Sakurai lied and gave us a false winner of the Ballot. The winner should not have been delayed into the next game. Sakurai should have started negotiations with the winner's company as soon as the votes were counted. And if Disney owned the winning character, he should disqualify that character whether they are from a video game or not to avoid the GoldenEye kind of legal trouble and make the runner-up that's owned by a video game company the winner. I wonder how many people who voted for Sora were actually trolling Sakurai and the Goku fans with votes for a Disney game character? It's like they found the perfect loophole for a famous animation/movie studio to be represented in a crossover about gaming. It's too bad the character I voted for (Tails) didn't win. You know what would be a better way to make sure the winner could be a realizable video game character? Put a company field with a drop down menu of all the video game companies who agreed to compete in the Smash Ballot. And any votes for characters that have their companies filled out wrong would be invalid votes. That way votes for Sora having his company at "Square Enix" would be discarded because Square only develops his games and he is really owned by Disney. At least, that would be how I would do it if I was Sakurai and in charge of the Smash Ballot. Saying the Ballot winner would come in Smash 4's DLC, announcing a fake winner that was being developed anyway, and announcing the real winner six years later at the end of the next game's DLC is very false advertisement that could warrant a lawsuit.

At this point, I am almost certain you're a troll, but I'll respond in case maybe you're very young and don't understand how things work.

1. Sakurai didn't have a list of companies he'd already approached, that's not how any negotiation works. You must first have a goal and some kind of benefit for both parties in mind before you waste people's time (and your own).

2. Most 3rd party rights won't be done in 2-3 months. We always knew we would only get 1-2 chars from the ballot unless they did a "Pack 2" equivalent (continue supporting for 1-2 more years). You could say the point was to bring the one who won, but as we see, those negotiations would last a whole lot more than a few months.

3. Your point that Sora was too hard is moot since Sora is here now. Sora isn't the reason we got Bayo in Smash 4, lol. No matter who won that wasn't Sora, Bayo was going to be included anyways basically.

4. Yes, the Smash team "played" with the data/numbers to show the results they wanted and didn't even tell us what the special parameters were. Yes, you can be pissed, so am I. It is not grounds for lawsuit, lol.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Sakurai not approaching these companies before the Smash Ballot was a mistake. It would have been quicker to get the negotiations prepared as a win condition and the losing companies could get Mii Costumes of their highest voted characters as consolation prizes. Or if he doesn't want to waste other companies' time with a competition, he could have just limited the votes to Nintendo characters. And even if it takes a whole year between closing the ballot and starting development on the new character, that character is still owed to the Wii U/3DS Smash game, not the one on the next console. Ultimate has the "Everyone is here" gimmick so of course that winner would have been in Ultimate too.

 

[zabimaru1000]

The fact of the matter is, the data of the ballot is rightfully theirs and they can disclose whatever information and choose what they do with it however they please. Fact of the matter is Sora won, and was not able to come out in time for Smash 4. And they chose to move the goalpost to Bayonetta (a character already in development and coincidentally placed high in the ballot overall).

Nothing about this warrants a lawsuit lmao

 

[Chiroz]

Sakurai not approaching these companies before the Smash Ballot was a mistake. It would have been quicker to get the negotiations prepared as a win condition and the losing companies could get Mii Costumes of their highest voted characters as consolation prizes. Or if he doesn't want to waste other companies' time with a competition, he could have just limited the votes to Nintendo characters. And even if it takes a whole year between closing the ballot and starting development on the new character, that character is still owed to the Wii U/3DS Smash game, not the one on the next console. Ultimate has the "Everyone is here" gimmick so of course that winner would have been in Ultimate too.

You must be a very young kid and have no understanding of the world, business or even human relations.

Sure, let's have Nintendo approach hundreds of companies, set up hundreds of meetings where thousands of employees waste hundreds of thousands of hours (adding employees) that cost millions of dollars in salary time in the mere chance that a character 1 person thinks could possibly win a competition.

This isn't friends discussing possibilities over lunch break, lol.



You either negotiate for characters without caring about the ballot and then justify their inclusion somehow no matter what the result of the ballot ends up being (Bayo) or you wait for the ballot to end, then decide which chars you want and start negotiating then (Most of Ultimate's newcomers).

In this case we had both.

 

[zabimaru1000]

You must be a very young kid and have no understanding of the world, business or even human relations.

Sure, let's have Nintendo approach hundreds of companies, set up hundreds of meetings where thousands of employees waste hundreds of thousands of hours (adding employees) that cost millions of dollars in salary time in the mere chance that a character 1 person thinks could possibly win a competition.

This isn't friends discussing possibilities over lunch break, lol.

I think this all stems around not being able to acknowledge that Kingdom Hearts is a video game originated franchise and discerning the difference between Sora and (Goku/Spider-Man/Darth Vader/etc) pretty sure I've been seeing that sentiment a lot multiple times way before Sora was announced.

 

[Chiroz]

I think this all stems around not being able to acknowledge that Kingdom Hearts is a video game originated franchise and discerning the difference between Sora and (Goku/Spider-Man/Darth Vader/etc) pretty sure I've been seeing that sentiment a lot multiple times way before Sora was announced.

It might stem from that, but assuming Nintendo (not Sakurai, Sakurai wouldn't be handling negotiations, lol) should approach every company that has a popular video game character, and negotiate every single possible popular character to be included in the possibility that they do end up in the top rankings is something only a young kid could dream is 1. feasible, 2. lucrative.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Sora is a video game character, so he counts. He could be owned by ****ing Turner Broacasting and if Sakurai saw the negotations as possible, he would have gene out of his way. If the character is game original, it counts, it's not about the company.

As for the Ballot, i think in retrospect it was NEVER intended for Smash 4, as that game was nearing completion. In reality it was always meant for Ultimate and future entries, but Sakurai and Iwata did not want to announce a new Smash during 2015 when Smash 4 was still getting DLC.

Yes that means they essentially LIED about it, and the proof is in the pudding:

1-Years ago, a Smash 6 Job listing was found. it wasn't fake, as it was tracked to Bandai Namco themselves. Smash 6 didn't launch in 2015, but it launched development in 2015. This was confirmed by Sakurai himself, as he has stated Ultimate started development in 2015, just right after Smash 4 wrapped up development. The news of a new Smash game were hidden in plain sight, but almost everyone assumed it meant just the DLC or even was a mistake due to Smash 4 still being relatively new. You could argue that it was too soon for a new Smash game since Ultimate was announced just 2 years shy of Bayo's release as DLC, but you must remember that 64 and Melee's gap was just 2 years, that the Wii U was a failure so they needed a new "Main" System and probably wanted some Killer Apps released in the console's early life, and since Ultimate was gonna reuse a lot of assets (and Sakurai didn't have to worry about making a game for both platforms like he did with Smash 4) it made development easier, although some corners still had to be cut, namely Piranha Plant went from Base Game to DLC (notice how in Sora's presentation during the Video's intro, they group Piranha Plant with the Base Game newcomers instead of the DLC characters, plus he has a Entry in Palutena's Guidance and his own 50 second video in Smash Ultimate's website, which is reserved for Base Game characters)


2-Bayo was found to be added 2 weeks into the Ballot, i'm just gonna let Omega Tyrant speak for himelf here:



If you wanna look into more detail, this is the thread where the post originates and Omega goes into more detail in later posts if you are interested.

It's not that "The Ballot was Rigged for Bayo", it's that "Bayonetta was always going to be in Smash 4, she was just a cover up for the Ballot in Smash 4 as it was actually going to be used for Ultimate all along"

This is why when Bayo "won", they put "AMONG REALIZABLE CHARACTERS" with an asterix. She was the highest voted character...............if you exclude all the other ones that likely had more votes than her because they were:
-****post votes like Shrek or North Korea.
-Characters that Sakurai coulnd't add in Smash 4 as that game ended prodcution so they were saved for the next game: Sora, the Belmonts, Ridley, K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, and Banjo & Kazooie.
-Characters that had more votes than Bayo, but were passed over because Sakurai had the above mentioned characters as priority as he simply couldn't add everyone due to time and resource constraints: Waluigi, Bomberman, Dixie Kong and Geno.


Yeah, it looks kinda scummy in hindsight, but i understand this was a white lie (well, maybe gray). They simply couldn't announce a new Smash game that soon, they waited for the Ballot to end on October and start right in November. This also fits with the Comment of a Former Mojang developer, who said that Steve took 5 years to negotiate and develop. This comment was made in Early October of 2020, fitting riiiight in with the development beginning of Smash Ultimate, meaning that yes, they were negotiating characters like Steve and Sora well in advance.

as for Sora being the winner for real or not, this time i actually believe that this is the real deal. Unlike Bayo whose games have been cult following games at best and Smash is the most exposure she has had to the average consumer. Sora, on the other hand, has enough Starpower to be mainstream and be a likely choice for fans to vote for:
-Kingdom Hearts was the 10th best selling KH game on PS2, the best selling console of all time, and was the best selling new IP for that system, and in an era where Zoomer nostalgia is booming, you bet a lot of the current generation was or is into Kingdom Hearts.
-Disney exposure, it's no secret that Disney is what attracted most people to KH, and if Disney is in a good position, KH is probably too.
-During the Smash Ballot, KH hype was still at an all time high. In 2013 KH3 was announced which was probably THE biggest news of E3 2013 outside of Smash, as that game was becoming infamous in the same way Duke Nukem Forever was, it was in limbo. The only other games that i can think had such big impact on their reveals were FF7 Remake, The Last Guardian, Shenmue 3 and Final Fantasy XV, which all share the same issue of KH3 of being in development hell for a long time. Even if KH3 didn't lived up to the expectations of most people, the fact that it was released and was at least not a disaster compared to the likes of DKF is no small feat.

I do believe Sora was more voted than the likes of DS and Chrom, the Belmonts, K.Rool and Ridley as KH's fanbase is large and vocal, the ONLY character who i think could have gotten more votes was Steve, who im actually shocked hasn't been mentioned as a big ballot choice as Minecraft is the best selling game of all time. The only reason i can think of, is that Minecraft's fanbase while huge, wasn't vocal during 2015, the era when the Ballot happened.

This may be hard to believe, but during 2014-2017, Minecraft wasn't that popular, most of the fans that played that game moved on and would not revisit that game until a few years later in 2019 (the game's 10th anniversary). During the mid 2010's MC was seen as the "Cringe" game (what didn't help is that in the 2010's Cringe Culture was also big, you can thank Commentary channels like Leafy for that), in the same way Fortnite is seen today (this is all part of a larger phenomenon, called "Popularity Polynomial") so during those days even if Minecraft was played by millions of people, those people were the silent majority that didn't even bothered to vote Steve on the Ballot, and the "Hardcore Gamers" either saw it as "Cringe" or if they did vote for Steve for the Ballot, it wasn't enough to outrank Sora. KH's fanbase and consumer base may not be as large as MC's, but they sure as Vocal and passionate, and 10 passionate fans can leave a bigger impact than a 100 consumers who play the game just because they like it or is the "popular thing".

What i am saying is tht if you think Steve's negative's reaction from certain fans back in 2020 were off, you don't wanna image how much more devisive he would have been during Smash 4 DLC.

So yeah, Sora won the Ballot.

The statement of being 'used for this and future games...'
This and the Smash 6 update were huge giveaways. I find it odd that these are never mentioned, as if memory is truly that fogged in the populous.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

The statement of being 'used for this and future games' was on the American ballot, too.
This and the Smash 6 update were huge giveaways. I find it odd that these are never mentioned, as if memory is truly that fogged in the populous.

Because some people don't like to find out the truth. They have been demoralized enough that factual information that goes against their narrative is irrelevant and discarded. It doesn't matter that all signs points to "The Ballot was for Ultimate, Bayo beign the winner was a cover up for the meantime", people refuse to believe this because according them, this that would paint Sakurai as a liar, even though he didn't technically lie (that is why he said Bayo was the winner "among realizable characters", that is ambiguous enough to mean a lot of things, in this case it meant "any character that couldn't be added in Smash 4 at this point")

If Piranha Plant was in Smash and was added as the "Ballot Winner" in Smash 4, people would believe it, and discard any evidence against, for some people the only word they believe is the official word of Nintendo/Sakurai, even when said word doesn't line up with reality.

Keep in mnd im not even that mad at Sakurai or Nintendo. I basically got K.Rool, Banjo and Simon thanks to the Ballot, so im okay with how things have gone (well except Bayo screwing over the Meta of 4)

 

[pupNapoleon]

Because some people don't like to find out the truth. They have been demoralized enough that factual information that goes against their narrative is irrelevant and discarded. It doesn't matter that all signs points to "The Ballot was for Ultimate, Bayo beign the winner was a cover up for the meantime", people refuse to believe this because according them, this that would paint Sakurai as a liar, even though he didn't technically lie (that is why he said Bayo was the winner "among realizable characters", that is ambiguous enough to mean a lot of things, in this case it meant "any character that couldn't be added in Smash 4 at this point")

If Piranha Plant was in Smash and was added as the "Ballot Winner" in Smash 4, people would believe it, and discard any evidence against, for some people the only word they believe is the official word of Nintendo/Sakurai, even when said word doesn't line up with reality.

Keep in mnd im not even that mad at Sakurai or Nintendo. I basically got K.Rool, Banjo and Simon thanks to the Ballot, so im okay with how things have gone (well except Bayo screwing over the Meta of 4)

I don't think anyone can consider 'lying' the same as PR. Public Relations is a tricky subject.
It cannot be fully, directly transparent- because that would mean telling every bit of information at all times. Which isn't a business plan. I don't think everyone would have even wanted to know about Smash 6 when 5 was still going on... it would have taken the reveal from us. It wouldn't have felt as emotionally rewarding.

I can speak on PR a lot, I'm in the field, but in the end, an entity has to portray the image that best resembles what it is doing (like a caricature), not the photo realistic portrayal.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Funny how people said **** about Sora being owned by Disney but completely ignore the literal same thing being said about any Mortal Kombat character, who are also owned by a non-video game company, Warner Bros.

By their own logic, Scorpion couldn't have been in because it would put Warner Bros. and Turner Broadcasting in the credits.

At this point, I am almost certain you're a troll, but I'll respond in case maybe you're very young and don't understand how things work.

Ignore this dude. He exists solely to argue and show his ass, and he never actually listens to anything that's said. Even thinking about him is enough to make my brain hurt.

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Funny how people said **** about Sora being owned by Disney but completely ignore the literal same thing being said about any Mortal Kombat character, who are also owned by a non-video game company, Warner Bros.

By their own logic, Scorpion couldn't have been in because it would put Warner Bros. and Turner Broadcasting in the credits.

Yeah now that you say it, it surprises me nobody mentioned this regarding MK.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

I thought Mortal Kombat is owned by NetherRealm Studios. It’s just that that company is in turn owned by Warner Bros, kinda like Minecraft being owned by Mojang, who in turn is owned by Microsoft.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think Scorpion will be in the deluxe edition. Sakurai seems to understand the power of the fighting game crossover being a crossover for fighting game characters.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Funny how people said **** about Sora being owned by Disney but completely ignore the literal same thing being said about any Mortal Kombat character, who are also owned by a non-video game company, Warner Bros.

By their own logic, Scorpion couldn't have been in because it would put Warner Bros. and Turner Broadcasting in the credits.



Ignore this dude. He exists solely to argue and show his ass, and he never actually listens to anything that's said. Even thinking about him is enough to make my brain hurt.

I did think of Scorpion's Warner Bros. problem, but as some people argued with me about, Microsoft (the company that owns Banjo and Steve) isn't a video game company either. I then excused Banjo and Steve's inclusion as part of Microsoft's gaming division Xbox Game Studios which owns Rare and Mojang. NetherRealm Studios is a part of WB's game department. However, Sora is a more complicated matter as Kingdom Hearts was claimed by Disney for the use of movie characters and by derivative property laws, that would mean Sora is owned by Walt Disney Pictures, the movie studio of Disney. And Disney has shut down their gaming division, Disney Interactive five years ago and moved to third-party licensing for video games so Sora is really owned by a movie studio and not some gaming subsidiary.

 

[zabimaru1000]

I did think of Scorpion's Warner Bros. problem, but as some people argued with me about, Microsoft (the company that owns Banjo and Steve) isn't a video game company either. I then excused Banjo and Steve's inclusion as part of Microsoft's gaming division Xbox Game Studios which owns Rare and Mojang. NetherRealm Studios is a part of WB's game department. However, Sora is a more complicated matter as Kingdom Hearts was claimed by Disney for the use of movie characters and by derivative property laws, that would mean Sora is owned by Walt Disney Pictures, the movie studio of Disney. And Disney has shut down their gaming division, Disney Interactive five years ago and moved to third-party licensing for video games so Sora is really owned by a movie studio and not some gaming subsidiary.

i assure you its not that deep as it seems. Kingdom Hearts is owned by Disney as it say on the fine print. No "Disney Interactive", just Disney

there isnt a rule that a character must come from a gaming originated company.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

i assure you its not that deep as it seems. Kingdom Hearts is owned by Disney as it say on the fine print. No "Disney Interactive", just Disney

there isnt a rule that a character must come from a gaming originated company.

Well, the way the Pokémon anime and Advent Children were referenced in Smash sure made it seem like the company mattered more than the literal first appearance. If we take the "Must originate from a video game" rule literally, Lucario breaks that rule. Doesn't matter if he was meant to appear in the games later. His movie still came first and that Aura was only explored in that movie. Smash outright credits Cloud's alternate costume as coming from Advent Children, a movie. Not to mention how all the Pokémon have their anime voices and not the electronic cries from the games. And Kingdom Hearts features a lot of different movie characters. And they aren't referenced in Smash because when presenting Kingdom Hearts, Sakurai's team had to take the "originate in a video game" rule way too seriously, and it's weird when in the same Fighters Pass, they put Advent Children music in Sephiroth's pack. They really need to be more consistent about this.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Well, the way the Pokémon anime and Advent Children were referenced in Smash sure made it seem like the company mattered more than the literal first appearance. If we take the "Must originate from a video game" rule literally, Lucario breaks that rule. Doesn't matter if he was meant to appear in the games later. His movie still came first and that Aura was only explored in that movie. Smash outright credits Cloud's alternate costume as coming from Advent Children, a movie. Not to mention how all the Pokémon have their anime voices and not the electronic cries from the games. And Kingdom Hearts features a lot of different movie characters. And they aren't referenced in Smash because when presenting Kingdom Hearts, Sakurai's team had to take the "originate in a video game" rule way too seriously, and it's weird when in the same Fighters Pass, they put Advent Children music in Sephiroth's pack. They really need to be more consistent about this.

Dear God do you ever actually listen to yourself?

Advent Children and the anime are still by and whole parts of their greater franchise, created FOR those franchises to be a part of their lore.

Disney films aren't ever created solely so they can appear in KH. Mickey Mouse was not created just for KH. It's not that difficult to understand.

The Disney content is included in KH, but not created FOR KH.

And, on top of that, your argument about Lucario ALSO does not hold water, because the Pokemon was designed for the games first. It just so happened that the anime film starring him released before his proper debut game.

Then there's the noises Pokemon make. Ignoring the fact that it's canon they speak their names thanks to TEXT BOXES WHETE THEY DO JUST THAT, including beeps and clicks as audio for characters who clearly have other material to work with just doesn't make sense. They're not Game and Watch.

So what if they chose the same VAs as the anime? It's not unheard of for people to voice the same character in multiple different mediums.

Pokemon, is also for all intents and purposes a franchise still owned by Nintendo through a second party developer, so it's still their content to use as they see fit. Disney characters are NOT Nintendo's IP, and thus they have to follow Disney's rules about using them.

Will you please just stop talking?

 

[zabimaru1000]

"Pikachu uses its anime voice since 64 and uses it in newer gen Pokemon games! So that means what sakurai said is inconsistent, when are they gonna add Goku?????"

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I would like to see a source that actually confirms that Lucario was made for the games because Lugia was confirmed to be designed solely for the second movie and Takeshi Shudo was surprised to see Lugia on the cover of Pokémon Silver. The time between Pokémon 2000 and Pokémon Gold and Silver is much shorter than the time between Lucario and the Mystery of Mew and Diamond and Pearl. So with the whole Lugia precedent, I can't say Lucario was made for the games until I know the full story of Lucario's development. And seeing how Aura is hardly explored in the games outside of a few Pokédex descriptions, the Aura Sphere move and Riley's flashing hand, and the fact that the Lucario in Smash is clearly based on Sir Aaron's Lucario down to talking with Sean Schemmal's voice while all the other Pokémon in Smash just say their names or make animal sounds, I'm not going to let him slide that easily.

 

[Oddball]

I would like to see a source that actually confirms that Lucario was made for the games because Lugia was confirmed to be designed solely for the second movie and Takeshi Shudo was surprised to see Lugia on the cover of Pokémon Silver. The time between Pokémon 2000 and Pokémon Gold and Silver is much shorter than the time between Lucario and the Mystery of Mew and Diamond and Pearl. So with the whole Lugia precedent, I can't say Lucario was made for the games until I know the full story of Lucario's development.

Here's the source.

He's a Pokemon character. Pokemon is a videogame franchise owned by a videogame company.

And if you want to pull a "Well technically...." keep in mind that the people that actually make the rules don't care about your "well technically...".

I'm not going to let him slide that easily.

It ain't up to you.

it's weird when in the same Fighters Pass, they put Advent Children music in Sephiroth's pack. They really need to be more consistent about this.

Why should they?
"Hey, you know this awesome thing that people like? We shouldn't include it because technical y it's not allowed due to rules that we made up ourselves and nobody is forcing us to follow."

That sounds really stupid, doesn't it? Why not just let them include the awesome thing even if it technically bends one of the rules that don't actually exist?

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Oh well then, if Shueisha offers Nintendo a deal to put Goku in Smash, don't expect Nintendo to reject it because of rules that don't actually exist.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

Now that I think about it, I think the rule is that their origin has to at least be video game adjacent.

For instance, R.O.B.’s origin is actually a video game accessory, not a video game itself.

Lucario counts because the anime is an adaptation of a video game series.

Sora counts because he actually did originate in a game.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

And Ash Ketchum should count because he also came from an adaptation of the Pokémon video game series.

Galen Marek should also count because he first appeared in a Star Wars video game. Okay, scratch that because The Force Unleashed tie-in comic and novel came a month before the game. But Darth Revan did first appeared in a game. And Android 21 only ever appeared in Dragon Ball games. Galena came from a crossover game.

 

[Reksew_Trebla]

And Ash Ketchum should count because he also came from an adaptation of the Pokémon video game series.

Galen Marek should also count because he first appeared in a Star Wars video game. Okay, scratch that because The Force Unleashed tie-in comic and novel came a month before the game. But Darth Revan did first appeared in a game. And Android 21 only ever appeared in Dragon Ball games. Galena came from a crossover game.

Ash is already in the game though... sort of. Greninja can only turn into Ash-Greninja through a bond with Ash Ketchum, hence Greninja gaining characteristics of Ash.

If Ash isn’t there, Greninja can’t form change. And would you look at that: Greninja’s FS has him turn into Ash-Greninja.

Yeah, you could make an argument about the game event Greninja that has the unique ability to turn into Ash-Greninja, but since 1: The original trainer is listed as Ash, and 2: You literally cannot obtain it without Gamefreak somehow accepting a bribe to give it to you (since they are no longer doing that event), or somehow get someone who got it from the event to trade it to you, I’m considering that non-canon.