The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Lola Luftnagle]

Here is what I liked about :

• While his mobility is far from great, fox-trot and extended dash-dance contributes to his footsies playstyle
• Aether gives him little launch resistance
• Simple albeit effective throw combos
• Jab remains useful for damage racking
• Mostly long-ranged attacks

Okay, as for improvements:

• Quick Draw needs some cross-up ability when shielded
• Give down smash some more reach so it's worth using
• Reduce recovery frames on back air by 50%
• Aether needs ledge-snap abilities. Y'all get gimped easily even with that tiny bit of super armor
• Down air needs, like, 5 more active frames
• Maybe a slightly faster dash speed to bolster his footsies game

And now custom specials and Final Smash:

• Eruption - predictable power moves that harm y'all when fully charged, so I avoid this and Furious Eruption. Tempest lacks the damage of neutral specials 1 & 3 but the windboxes do come in handy. Get foes outta your face, edge-guards, etc. The next time you launch or or off-stage, whip out Tempest on his ass and gimp him.
• Quick Draw - pretty useless in my opinion since it is predictable and leaves no guaranteed options on hit. Now, I use Close Combat since it is faster and launches people well. Unyielding Blade is nice in that it yields super armor but not worth it for being slower and short-distanced, so...
• Aether - um...Aether Drive should be your go-to custom for recovering. Otherwise none of these up-specials are worth mentioning, so...
• Counter - pales in comparison to or , not worth talking about, so... Paralyzing Counter ain't too bad since I like stunning people. Who says y'all sugar pies always have to do damage with a counter? Sadly, smash attacks are not a given off of this, but that's okay; jabs or throw combos are your go-to followups. Smash Counter I want y'all sugar pies to walk away from. Just, just walk away. The half-second delay in the counter-strike ain't worth the added power.
• Great Aether - Just like 's Omega Blitz, y'all can kill low-damage enemies easily, say, those with 20%, plus-minus.

Yes, well...voting for the only swordsman who can wall jump, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for the for glory villain,

 

[Zerp]

I think he deserves buffs but I really don't really know what I want to do for him.

Ground speed increased, air speed decreased

Here's Ike's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UQ1QnpwhAjrSJrgM6w4k8mitoLOBEd_WEifAe6nmnEo/viewanalytics
Here's Toon Link's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/mnO4gNC2TpD6c1fe2

You may vote for any of these characters that have played t3h t0oN trlioggeee:

print (I'll vote for )

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is pretty much good in high tier. Besides his somewhat poor grab game (made up for by his amazing B-throw) and D-air, he doesn't have anything poor or overpowered, and even buffing those things would be too much.

Voting for LoNg0uw--I mean, .

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

• F-air needs a much better autocancel window, say, from frame 30 onwards
• Back air needs a 50% aerial end lag reduction with a better auto-cancel window (from frame 25 onwards)
• Restore the bounce effect on hit on his down air while decreasing its landing lag (40 frames => 30 frames)

Other than that, is cool as is in other areas.


Custom specials/final smash evalution time!

• Hero's Bow - Piercing Bow ain't worth discussing, so... I like the Fire Bow since it is 's legacy. I think it's an honor for the Wind-Waking warrior to employ this.
• Boomerang - neither custom is worth discussing, so...
• Spin Attack - leave Hurricane Spin alone, but Rising Slash is a'ight to use.
• Bomb - Time Bomb ain't worth using any more than 's down-specials. I say, short-fused bomb is good. If I were y'all, I'd toss them immediately after pulling one. Decent launch power off of this.
• Triforce Slash - decent, not great. Wouldn't it be nice if more than one target would be caught and did more damage?

I shall vote Rosey the Robot Maid's cousin once-removed, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

I'll vote for the NOT video game, .

 

[Matt11111]

My main man. Personally I'd like to see a game where every character is as good as the current top tiers, so I'll be going off of that for these and all of my upcoming suggestions.

• First up, his grab doesn't have all that much reward for being so slow. Back throw kills. That's it. So what I would do is change the angle (and maybe knockback and frame data) of down throw so it can combo into a back air or up B or SOMETHING. Maybe make his grab a taaaad bit faster as well.

Um... there isn't really much I would change about Toon Link to be honest. He's pretty darn good as is.

I'm kinda bad at this.

Voting for the character with the coolest walk,

 

[Zerp]

I think Toon Link is basically perfect as of right now, and I won't fix what isn't broken.

Here's Toon Link's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...g8wECjMH4Y76DqnWF7vX-XWN7RrgElg/viewanalytics
Here's R.O.B.'s poll: https://goo.gl/forms/ptt285bMdmzxMaxB2

You may vote for any of these characters that won't survive the robotic uprising:

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I don't have a lot to say about except the following:

• Make his finishers come out five frames faster
• Up-tilt needs a larger hitbox to his sides to scoop up nearby folks
• The landing lag on back air, up air and down air should each be reduced to 15 frames

Yeah, time to talk custom specials and Final Smash...

• Robo Beam - neither wide-angle nor infinite variants are worth talking about, so...
• Arm Rotor - yeah...I like the movement you get with this and the fact it's a reflector. Reflector Arm and Backward Arm Rotor are otherwise too similar to some of 's custom neutral specials. Y'all sugar pies new to the game can practice reflector usage with any of the three side-specials but y'all will have an easier time using or 's own reflective shields, so...
• Robo Burner - none of these are worth talking about, but if y'all sugar pies had to choose one, let it be High-Speed Burner.
• Gyro - I personally like the fiery top since it's more powerful than usual but doesn't fly far. Slip Gyro can be useful for kill setups or throw combos. Seems our mechanized friend will take on a bit of 's playstyle with the slip gyro on deck.
• Super Diffusion Beam - I think this is a bit better than his previous final smash. I don't have to chase down anyone to get K.O.s with it now. Like it splits up into smaller beams to make it harder for others to avoid. Also pretty certain it kills low-damage enemies from center stage, which is great.

Yes, well...Robot can hold his own with his playstyle entailing zoning and poke/punish. Now voting one of my secondaries, .

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for my boy introspective,

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has been getting more representation from players like 8BitMan, Raffi-X, and LoNg0uw to the point where he's solidly in high-mid tier. At this point I would only change one thing about him:

• What on earth is Arm Rotor even? It's way too inconsistent and laggy for its mediocre power and reflection abilities, hurting this move's potential to be a really interesting tool in his kit.

Voting for Spyro after eating hot peppers, .

 

[Zerp]

If there's one thing that's for certain, R.O.B. needs his side b to git gud, not really sure what else he should receive other than aesthetic changes. (Why didn't they fix his eyes already?)

Here's R.O.B.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1G4jXPVdnClmDR4FGQjXUnYjbPzMj4EN94f7pV6DkjfM/viewanalytics
Here's Charizard's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/L3JNtnLTrN6bg1CW2

You may vote for any of these characters that can't fly without assistance from machinery:

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Voting for NOT baby bowser, .

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is currently residing in low-mid tier, even after his plentiful buffs, because his core problems haven't been addressed yet.

• Why is he so clunky in the air when he's a frickin dragon? Increase air speed and give him a third mid-air jump so he can actually make sense from a character standpoint.
• D-tilt is really clunky. If it could connect more reliably, then it would have more use.
• F-smash is a bit too laggy for its power, and D-smash is a bit too weak for its frame data. Fix those, please.
• Decrease landing lag of B-air so he has a better spacing tool.
• Decrease lag of Flamethrower to give him yet another tool in the neutral.

Voting for van Beethoven.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Here's what I liked about :

• Speedy for a biggie
• Useful throws in up-throw and down-throw
• Fly and Rock Smash yield super armor

Now, here's what needs to be fixed:

• 50% less landing lag on all aerials
• Side smash and down smash need to recover 15 frames faster
• Flare Blitz needs a 30-frame end lag reduction
• His head hurtbox should be half the size it is now
• Back-air needs its hitbox fixed. It can wander off into the z-axis making the move hard to land

Now, I'll share my thoughts on specials, customs, and Final Smash (oh my)...

• Flamethrower - both Fire Fang and Fireball Cannon are outclassed by Flamethrower in every way. Fire Fang is close-ranged which is never a good position for Charizard to be in. Fireball Cannon, on the other hand, can come in handy for certain matchups, so...
• Flare Blitz - one word to describe it: USELESS. The recoil damage y'all take, coupled with its god-awful recovery time, is not worth the damage it does. I don't even know why For Glory scrubs waste their time spamming this ****. Blast Burn should never be used for the same reasons as Flare Blitz. Now, Dragon Rush I like since y'all never take recoil damage while still aiding your horizontal recovery. Just weaker than the other two variants but it is worth it, so...
• Fly - Rising Cyclone may have launch power but compromises your recovery, which is not want I am after. Fly High gives greater vertical recovery but lacks a damaging hitbox. The **** with this, I'll stick with Fly since it yields super armor with damaging hitboxes for added protection.
• Rock Smash - stay away from Sinking Skull. There is no boulder to head which means less protection from retaliations if y'all miss. I like Rock Hurl since the rock fragments cover more vertical distance though they do less damage. Other than that, Rock Smash packs a pretty mean punch like last time, so...
• Mega Charizard X - well, we have a flashy move. Both the fireballs and dragon rush kill at well below 150% but at around 110% they work to finish off most fighters. Yeah...pitiful compared to or 's respective Final Smashes. Not to mention y'all can still take damage from enemy attacks to truncate your transformation duration. At least y'all sugar pies can enjoy the inability to be flinched...

I once again vote my secondary character, . My tertiary, , can wait...

 

[Zerp]

Here's Charizard's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Vm_4x5BflcaL0QNL9fDh3VN_sAW8tgcyCQpwa-QFLm4/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser Jr.'s poll: https://goo.gl/forms/zGh5UiAMoLiH3T2v1
You may vote for that one weirdo sitting in the back:

I'll vote for , I don't see why not.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Okey-dokey...what I liked about

• His aerial attacks have good recovery due to the auto-cancel windows
• Viable recovery options
• Maximum survivability due to his unique damage multiplier handicap (that is when his clown car is hit)
• Side smash recovers rather quick, which is something y'all usually can't get with smash attacks

What should be fixed is the following:

• Decrease lag on Clown Cannon
• Make n-air auto-cancel on frame 30
• Increase knockback growth on back throw to, like, 150 KBG. He should at least have one kill throw to compensate for his lackluster grapple game.
• Maybe increase his ground and air speed somewhat
• Enlarge side-smash's hitbox such that it will never whiff at point-blank range

And as for custom specials and Final Smash, here's my thoughts:

• Clown Cannon - hmm, not exactly the most useful projectile in the game. On the other hand, the custom variants aren't any better though I like the Air Cannon for gimping many-a . Piercing Cannon is pointless in singles but in eight-player battles, y'all may have use for it.
• Clown Cart Dash - all of these help y'all to approach, recover, whatever. I don't have much bad to say about any of these.
• Abandon Ship - I say leave Meteor Ejection and Koopa Meteor alone since they both significantly harm your recovery.
• Mechakoopa - impatient Mechakoopas are useless, period. Big Mechakoopa is where it's at since it's a very powerful and portable explosive.
• Shadow Mario Paint - well, this Final Smash sucks. Opponents are KO'd rather late and Koopa Jr. doesn't even get intangibility. The **** with this, I'll take 's Final Smash, thank you.

In closing, Koopa Jr. can earn his keep in match victories with exceptional spacing, zoning, and use of ATs with Mechakoopa and even Clown Cannon.

And then there was one fighter to analyze. Time to vote , and like and , I have lots to share, so...

 

[MarioManTAW]

Jr. definitely needs improvements.

Grab game:
Reduce BKB and KBG of D-throw so it can lead to follow-ups.
Either decrease endlag or greatly increase BKB and KBG of U-throw. Right now, it's probably the closest he has to a combo throw. Either make it better for comboing or make it a viable kill throw.
Increase KBG of B-throw so it kills easier.
Increase damage of F-throw.

Mobility:
Eliminate backdash on side-b, at least in the air
Make side-b spinout actually useful for something
Increase air mobility (he's in a flying car)

Other:
I think he was designed to be a heavy/zoner type, so why are his projectiles so awful? Decrease lag on both down-b and neutral-b, please.
Make up-b less gimpable and allow him to tech after using it.
His jab is a bit easy to escape. Fix that.
Optionally improve frame data on his fair and bair. (Also make sure the hitboxes match: I recall hearing that they're disproportionately small.)

 

[Matt11111]

Well, off the top of my head,

• Fix his up-B so he doesn't fall to his death if he gets edgeguarded while trying to recover.
• Yes, remove the backdash on side B (I guess that's what it's called)
• Make it so his body takes normal damage instead of more damage, but keep the Clown Car the same and have it take less damage than Jr. himself.
• Do something about Cannonball. Just.... anything.

Voting for, well, y'know.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

... You need a lot of fixing. Where should I begin?

• Ah, yes: Jab. You're too slow, weak, and inconsistent to do anything besides jab locks.
• D-tilt has mostly the same issues as jab, except it can't even jab lock! I mean, I guess licking shouldn't be a huge threat, but come on!
• Give D-smash some more damage. I don't understand why they ignored this move while buffing his other smashes, as this was already his worst smash before those buffs.
• Increase range of grab. It's pitifully small for how much lag it has.
• Decrease knockback of one throw (preferably D-throw) to turn it into a proper combo throw. Of all the flaws his grab game has, lack of range and followups are the worst ones.
• (optional) His aerials are mostly fine, except D-air. I want this move to have much less knockback on the landing hit so it allows for followups like Fox's.
• Need I mention Clown Cannon?
• (optional) Clown Cart Dash is mostly okay, though I would like the reel back in the air to be removed, as well as not steal your double jump, to allow for more flexible recovery.
• Speaking of which, Abandon Ship is really easy for most characters to gimp. Greatly decrease the amount of hit stun it gets from really weak moves so he isn't done for after one Mario N-air.

Voting for my favorite Mii and probably the best (except in any size XXXX), .

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I thought we were done circle jerking about how Bowser Jr. needs patches lol

Jab is ok for power, but I would prefer it not pop opponents out that easily - if bayonetta can hav a jab that locks opponents in for 15%, why can't Jr?

Utilt needs a bit of range in front of Jr as well. As it stands, it only covers right above him and is a mediocre anti air. I would like for it to become a scooping move like ZSS has in order to start juggles.

Because of the Z Axis, Bowser Jr still has a few blind spots in his Fsmash. I would prefer a meatier hitbox that removes this problem.

Dsmash is super laggy and there isn't much reward to it. If we're gonna have a really laggy smash attack I would prefer to see a good amount of power as well, so I think it needs a power buff or an endlag reduction.

The biggest problem with Bowser Jr is that his air game seems to be a key part of his playstyle, but he has enormous landing lag and not much effective disjoint to square off against swords.

Nair should autocancel on short hop and needs a landingg lag reduction. This would allow Jr to play more offensively in the air because landing is easier.

Fair and Bair need landing lag reductions and a little bit more range. Right now, because of the animations, Jr's body and the clown car extend along with the hitbox, leaving less effective disjoint to space with. Having over 20 frames of landing lag is obnoxious and extremely unsafe on shields.

The cannonball projectile is fine, but the huge amount of startup and endlag are major turn offs, and the fact that he cannot store charge on his cannonball. Either make the cannonball come out faster, or allow Jr to store charge on his shots like Mewtwo and Samus can. This would give him a stronger projectile game, as Sakurai seemed to intend with mechakoopas.

ABANDON SHIP is too easily gimped. It's well known how Jr's ability to get the car back is based on KB, for no good reason, and it results in stupid gimps. Take ANY KB, and he should get it back.

The mechakoopa is a key part of Jr's item play, but it just doesn't feel as useful as it should be. Unlike Diddy's banana, which is great in neutral, the mechakoopa feels like something you just fire and forget, as it walks around the stage. I'm not sure how to improve it, but if there was a way to do so, Jr's item game would be greatly strengthened.

 

[Zerp]

Will edit later
Here's Bowser Jr.'s results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1kjWlh-stzTxDm4ioJ3DJiqUzArHGo50yWTmFBSDxGwc/viewanalytics
Here's Mii Gunner's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/MFN99fIyMN2uJQvs2
Like always, Mii Gunner's Guest XXXX on the poll, but you can talk about any variant you want to.

Also, we're voting no characters for tomorrow because there's none left.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Here's what needs to be fixed about :

• Jab 1 and jab 2 need weight-based knockback so it can set up grabs and maybe an up-tilt or down-tilt
• I would double the damage on hits 1-6 on side smash so it at least does average smash attack damage
• Weight-based knockback on the first four hits of up-smash, please.
• Longer length hitbox on the front hit of down smash. It makes no sense for this move to whiff in close range.
• Up aerial should auto-cancel on frame 45 onwards
• Down aerial is useless 'cause of its **** lag. I'd make the auto-cancel window be frame 35 onwards and reduce landing lag by 50%.
• I'd like Charge Blast to have better knockback, say, 30 BKB and 100 KBG

Rather than talk about what I liked about Gunner and talk about special moves and the Final Smash, I'm going to share with y'all sugar pies the following...

She is as light and small as possible to maximize her air and ground speed. But as with any Mii I create of this stature, I treat her as since I find aerial combat harder to control. But hey, at least I never suffer landing lag from using up-air as her, so... I was going to give her the 1123 set, but she is using the Inkling girl's squirt gun so I gave her Laser Blaze. Cannon Uppercut, according to some Gunner users, works best with smaller Miis 'cause of the greater air speed, jumps, and difficulty in being gimped. Now, that is what I have Samus Junior use for those reasons.

Now, I based this one on Asuka Kazama's schoolgirl outfit from Tekken 5. Anyways, she's tall with no weight changes. Now, she may be sluggish like this but I am used to easier control, so... I have her using Grenade Launcher, which is good for a lot of **** such as traps, landing options, recovery disruption, what have you. Now, Lunar Launch may be the best recovery move of the three up-specials, but I have her use Arm Rocket due to you having some control over your flight path. Too bad this doesn't work like 's up specials, then that'd really be something...

As a closing statement, I say that small/light gunners are the best. Their much better ground speed makes their already-good projectile game scarier while having more manageable stage recovery than previously. If anything, small/light may be high (if not upper-mid) tier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is probably the best Mii in Guest XXXX, but they still fall short in the fundamentally broken design of certain normal and special moves. Here's how I would buff them:

• Make jab and F-tilt a bit faster to make up for their mediocre power.
• Make U-smash and D-smash connect more reliably so they're better finishers.
• Make D-throw better at comboing and F-throw better at killing. Their grab game is quite lacking otherwise.
• Decrease end lag and landing lag of U-air so they can defend themselves and combo better with it. If this makes it ridiculous, its power or range can be slightly decreased to compensate.
• D-air should not be a terrible waste of an aerial by having more active frames.

Her specials are quite good with XXXX, but I'd like to buff some of the lesser used ones:

• The neutral-B that imitates Fox's lasers (2) would actually be useful if they functioned like those.
• I don't understand the purpose of the awkward "sniper" side-B (2). Increase power or something.
• The up-B with no hitbox (3) should go significantly farther, as with it their momentum ends suddenly and they actually go shorter horizontally than the default up-B.

 

[Zerp]

To be completely honest, I'm not certain what to make out of any of the Mii Gunners except for 1111, they're just so under-developed that I find it very hard to pinpoint where they could possibly belong. For all I know, Small-Slim XXXX Gunner may be even better than Brawler, there's just nowhere near enough material to judge them off of.

Here's Mii Gunner's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/12aaY5bgrsTvDwCbfeOJ-byL7yRN3GrSAPIXQO8iuNa4/viewanalytics

Anyway, since we're done with all the characters, we'll have a bit of a break like always, I'll post a schedule tomorrow, but for now feel free to talk about any character you want to.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I done forgot to show y'all a few of my s. Considering was the very last character discussed, I figured I'd be assertive and do a brief show-and-tell here. And this is going out to y'all shugs who may be newcomers...

Yes, well...she is as short and light as possible. Apparently this makes her quite agile and hard to catch. Now, aerial combat is tricky to control for me, so I treat her as and stick to the ground. Without going into details, Shot Put seems pretty usable for small/thin Fighter due to our scary mobility. Burning Drop Kick would ordinarily help with recovery but her air speed exceeds 's noticeably that she may not need it. I gave it to her since it best resembles 's Peach Bomber, so... Helicopter Kick I gave her since according to other users this move is crazy as small/thin Fighter. Finally, I gave her Feint Jump as it is decidedly the only useful down-special, so...


Now, one more I want to share...

...yes, Asuka Kazama again! Now, I made her as tall as possible with no weight changes. She may be a bit slower than default size but it makes for easier ground/aerial combat. Besides, the speed rating is still above-average like this. Right, the moveset I gave her best replicates her maneuvers in Tekken 5. On a side note, when I power up my ultimate uppercut all the way, I quote : "Genkai wo koeru!" But enough about that...

That said, I'm going to be concerned about mostly custom specials and Final Smashes since those are my areas of expertise just as sure as I talk to y'all with the Nancy Gribble mannerism.

 

[Fephoenix]

Nerf Bayo. Still too strong at low level play XD she has so many combos out of heel slide and down tilt. I'd say probably increase knockback of down tilt and decrease damage of jab, or increase time in between each part of jab while still keeping enemies trapped in jab if hit. It will give more chance to grab Bayo if she hits jab on shield. While we're at it, increase frames between heel slide 1 and 2 on the grounded version, again, an easier chance to grab on shield. I'd say make her a character that can combo easily, but decrease safety on shield more.

 

[Axel311]

At this point, to me I think the most needed nerfs are to Bayo and Cloud.

Most needed nerfs:

's Finishing Touch. This move needs to be made grounded only like KO Punch because it has completely taken over the doubles meta, it's centralized around it and that's when you know there's a problem. Its completely ruined doubles in my opinion. This next point is less of an issue, but I'd take away the mobility boost he gets while in limit as an additional nerf and perhaps some overall reduction to knockback of his kill moves. He needs to be toned down a bit in singles as well. This character in particular is a huge problem at mid/low levels, as he's way too good for how easy he is to play. He's crushing character diversity.

's Up B and Witch Time are simply way too strong and have an out of wack risk/reward ratio. I'd shrink the Up B hitbox and increase the SDI multiplier. Witch Time should have more restrictions on use, such as a much longer cool down between uses and more of a penalty for a wiffed witch time. Or a range rework. Just general nerfs to tilt the risk/reward so its not no heavily in Bayo favor.

's Banana. I don't think a HUGE nerf is needed, but other characters need more time to react to it so Diddy's neutral isn't so overwhelming. He has way too many free matchups simply because the low/mid tiers aren't built to deal with it in neutral. I'd add a bit of cooldown frames to the startup and end lag of the banana toss animation for all characters.


Most needed buffs:

Obviously . She needs so much, but mainly more range on her aerials and some kind of confirms into rest at rest kill percents.


Other than puff and maybe the default Miis, I don't feel there's any characters that are in such a horrible state that they can't atleast compete. Although certainly many of them deserve buffs. But Puff is the only one I feel is so bad that she's almost at the level of a joke character.

But I think the nerfs I mentioned above would seriously really diverisfy the meta and make the game more fun for 90% of the community. The nerfs I pointed out aren't out of personal spite for any character, they're just objectively what I think would most improve the game.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

In my opinion:


Characters that NEED to be nerfed (god tier): none

Characters that should be nerfed (too easy to exploit):

Characters that NEED to be buffed (bottom tier):

Characters that should be buffed (low/mid tier):


The rest are in the comfortable range of upper mid to lower top tier where I feel all characters should be.

Of course, if everyone should move to that level of viability, tiers would still exist and characters that are currently in the good range would likely either rise a bit or drop. But at that point, the tiers would be so close in absolute viability that any character could easily succeed, so the tier list wouldn't mean as much at that point, and we could finally have as balanced of a diverse fighter as may be possible.

 

[Zerp]

Here's the schedule.

Today: We'll discuss what we personally think are the least balanced and most balanced characters in the game.
Sunday: We'll discuss whether or not freeing the Miis would make the meta less or more balanced overall.
Monday: We'll discuss what we think are the most neutral and least neutral legal stages.
Tuesday: There'll be a poll about this thread's future and how it should continue.
Wednesday: And there'll be another poll about the same thing.
Thursday and Friday: We'll discuss anything we want. So basically the same as before I made the schedule.
Saturday: Next Round starts

So for today we'll just talk about who we think are the least and most balanced characters in the game, which, now that I think of it, is pretty similar to what a lot of you guys were already talking about lol.

Inb4 every post has as the least balanced.

 

[Fephoenix]

Of course Bayo would be the least balanced, even if her down b takes a long time to recharge, it still is very hard to punish. On the other side of the scale though, Jigglypuff is also one of the least balanced, and needs to be buffed more. I don't know how to go about it, but I suggest turning Up B and Neutral B into useful moves, and perhaps adding more range onto things like her nair and fair.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Most balanced:
He's quite simple to play at a mid tier level, but he requires immense mastery of his moveset and all its hitbox placements to truly make him upper high to lower top tier, which rewards players like MKLeo, Mr. E, and others for putting in the effort to master him. Plus, his entire moveset is quite balanced between each move, with no broken moves and only a couple mediocre ones, so his entire kit must be used effectively to place well. After his buffs, he's pretty accessible to most players, but only the most dedicated and fluent players will greatly succeed with him, making him balanced.

Runners-up: /
These characters overall reward you only for mastery of their kit like Marth, but either have something a little crazy that throws off the balance of their moveset (the first three) or are a bit too honest to do extremely well (the second three).


Least balanced:
That's right, not Bayonetta! At least she has problems in the neutral, and Diddy Kong requires technical prowess to abuse his moves, but Cloud just does whatever he feels like. Sure, he has the recovery problem, but you have to get in disadvantage state to run into that issue in the first place, unlike Bayo and Diddy's problems. And with his ridiculous neutral and advantage state, that's not a small task for his opponent. Plus, at least the developers noticed how crazy pre-patch Bayo and Diddy were and seriously nerfed their kit, while Cloud was mostly ignored. He just needs some tweaks to be harder to pick up as a viable pocket character, so the meme about that would go away and, like Marth, only the truly dedicated players would stay with him.

Runners-up: //
Bayonetta and Diddy Kong have been severely nerfed, but they're still extreme threats in the meta game with some ridiculous tools (Witch Twist & Witch Time, F-air & D-tilt). On the other side of the spectrum, Jigglypuff has been ignored and Dedede has been nerfed when they both badly needed buffs, which the other low to bottom tiers were lucky enough to get, to stay viable. And the Miis, with their integrated custom moves and size changes, are so unbalanced that most rulesets destine them to bottom tier.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Sorry I'm late, but I didn't want miss it.




IMO (The placing on the rank doesn't matter)

Huge Buffs:

Significant Buffs:

Minor Buffs:

Either or Changes/Overall Same:

Very Little Nerfs:

Minor Nerfs:

 

[Fephoenix]

Sorry, I just had to come out and say this. For one thing, Mii Fighters should be included in the Sm4sh rule set. Reason? Many people include them in the tier list, but they're bottom tier because nobody wants to experiment with them if they're playing competitive, because they aren't allowed in most tournaments. Second, when included, Miis should at first be standard weight and height with the 1111 move set, to be adjusted as necessary.

This is probably the wrong topic for this, and for that I apologize.

 

[Tizio Random]

The least balanced characters are obviously and
Bayonetta has Witch Time and dumb things like her upb and Bat Within. Cloud instead has Limit which I could argue argue is the stupidest thing in the game and amazing aerial mobility + aerial attacks.

Most balanced are , , and which are perfect the way the are and my ideal balance for every character.
Honourable mentions for if it wasn't for his ladder combos on floaties, for his True Shoryuken and for her Flip Jump.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Ryu did not have shoryuken, he would be unbalanced. He would drop 2 tiers easy.

 

[Tizio Random]

If Ryu did not have shoryuken, he would be unbalanced. He would drop 2 tiers easy.

What I meant is that he is balanced but because it has an incredible strength and a crippling weakness. I would prefer Ryu to have a weaker True Shoryuken in exchange for a decent projectile and better approach options.
Same goes for ZSS, nerf her Flip Jump but at least give her a functional dtilt.
All the other characters I've listed have some strength and weaknesses but the two are more tamed to each other in comparison.

 

[Guido65]

The easiest solution to giving ryu a decent/good projectile is signifigantly lowering hadouken's faf to what it is in the actual street fighter games.For reference in street fighter V the recovery on light hadouken is 33 frames while in smash 4 it's 44.I don't think he deserves to be changed at all but if shoryuken is nerfed then at least make hadouken's recovery much lower to compensate.

Oh and for he could use his hitboxes matching the animations better(making his active frames like they were in brawl).

has some very strong normals but some of them overall do have things that need fixed(blindspots). However the specials should receive some buffs. Mii sword seems to be a lot like link in some areas with similar frame data slightly btr mobility and less range due to him being a bit smaller even in 50:50 size(guest sized sword mii is only slightly taller then toon link and his limbs are also short which is why he has less range then average swordies).

Shuriken of Light is the one I'm talking about and while it's not a bad move per say it could use adustments. Make it's faf 8 frames lower(from frame 50 to frame 42).

Chakram on the ground should be able to be picked up and used as an item.

The recovery side b's shouldn't send him in free fall and should have signifigantly less lag.

Jumpsquat shouldn't be frame 7.

Air acceleration of 0.065 would also be a large boost to helping his mobility woes.

Air speed of 1.05 would also help him be able to use his aerials much better.

Wii Fit Trainer's Run Speed .

Nair should start right behind him like clouds to remove the deadzone.

Dtilt,Jab,Nair now have hitboxes along the whole sword.

Forward Air now autocancels in a shorthop.

Down tilt now sends up at a 80 degree angle.

Up throw should be a stock cap throw.

All aerials should get their faf reduced by 9 frames.

could use small movement speed buffs(air speed of around 1 like melee's air acceleration of 0.06 run speed of 1.6 jumpsquat of 5 frames and finally a frame 4 nair like he had in melee to help out his disadvantage state).

Next his grounded normals should receive faf reductions.

Jab 1: 27 ->22(in between pre nerf and current link jab)

Jab 2: 21 ->18

Jab 3: 37->32

Dash Attack: 57 ->51

Forward Tilt: 38 ->35

Down Tilt: 29 ->28

Up Tilt: 36-> 33

Forward Smash 1:52->41

Down Smash: 50->45

Up smash: 78->60 so he has a much safer oos option.

All versions of grab have 9 frames less endlag.

should get his limit mobility buffs removed while also making all his aerials deal 3% less damage(to make him less rewarded for winning neutral exchanges as cloud is far too rewarding for how easy he is.

I guess just take away the 2nd run speed buff that made him faster then sheik and make him around mk run speed. That or give fair the same treatment they gave 's up air in pal.

all variants of witch twist have hitbox size reductions. No longer gets side b back when hit out of it.

 

[Zerp]

I see the least balanced character as , with the runner ups being and , I'd explain why I think this, but pretty much everyone knows everything about these characters anyway, most balanced imo (and this is a extremely subjective imo) is either or , they're at just the right level of viability.

Also, for today, we've got an interesting topic to discuss, whether or not freeing the miis would be better or worse for the game's overall balance.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Hmm....while I don't like working with their **** 1111 movesets, I'll have to say no to this one. notwithstanding, no other character relies overmuch on custom specials like Miis do. Now, I don't like that all tournies to date deprive them of their customizable abilities but it wouldn't be fair for them to have special treatment over everyone else. Besides, the tier lists to date rank all fighters without customs. With customs, well, balance will be in complete disarray.

Right...even if the Miis were freed, their tourney results would be scattered and inconsistent depending on the viability of the custom sets used. That much I am certain of...

If all other characters have to stick with default specials, so do the Miis. Now, this is why I dropped them for . I say, if y'all shugs tinkered around with custom sizes and specials before, y'all ain't missing anything. Mii Fighter legality obviously will not matter if y'all play this game Mario Party-style like I do, so... Don't hate tournament organizers for relegating them to default; they just want to ensure fairness and balance and more consistent results.