The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Zerp]

What does he say about it?
In the words of pannenkoek,
"There are currently no cases where that's useful or important".

He claims it makes Marth's spacing better (To be fair to him, it does, but by a minuscule amount that doesn't really matter) and is always on about how "it isn't negligible and does matter". He never really specifies on why that's the case though, he just says how it feels or what-not. While I'd usually say that he's at least got a good point (he usually does) when I disagree with him on something, I don't think I can say that for this, sorry bro.

 

[FamilyTeam]

He claims it makes Marth's spacing better (To be fair to him, it does, but by a minuscule amount that doesn't really matter) and is always on about how "it isn't negligible and does matter". He never really specifies on why that's the case though, he just says how it feels or what-not. While I'd usually say that he's at least got a good point (he usually does) when I disagree with him on something, I don't think I can say that for this, sorry bro.

If he is going off of how physically long their sword is on the model, then yeah, it's gonna feel much longer than it is.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Should we change how the tiers are named for next round? I personally don't believe the current division of tiers match the true viability of all the characters in the game. Every single character in the game has done at least something in serious tournaments, so in my eyes nobody is so hopeless in the current meta game to be called bottom tier. Plus, I think there should be more than one high tier to represent all the current tournament threats there are.

If that makes it weird to have no "Bottom Tier" even though there's technically a tier at the bottom, I'd suggest changing the naming of tiers to be letters instead of words. S for top, A for high, B for mid, C for low, + or - for any variation of those categories. My tier list has seven tiers divided into S, A+, A-, B+, B, B-, and C, which I feel most accurately describes the potential of all the characters in the game. Plus, this would help to remove any enmity resulting in a character being labeled as "Bottom Tier" as opposed to the lowest ranking being a C (which is still "average" quality).

 

[Tizio Random]

One thing I noticed when thinking about how to nerf top tiers, at least the one that could see some tweeks, is how many ways there are to bring down the power level of Bayo and Cloud. Seriously, you can either nerf their specials, their aerials, their attributes like air speed or knockback of certain moves and every option you choose could be "fair", so to speak.
Diddy Kong is another character close to this considering his good throws, fair (that hitbox is absurd) and the lethal dtilt/banana combo but I think the latter is what shines the most.

However, I like this format, even though I only actually commentate on bottom and top tiers, it's easy and effective.

 

[Zerp]

Sorry about my lateness, somethingsomethingI'mkindasick, we'll start the next round either tomorrow or the day after depending on some poll's results.

Should we change how the tiers are named for next round? I personally don't believe the current division of tiers match the true viability of all the characters in the game. Every single character in the game has done at least something in serious tournaments, so in my eyes nobody is so hopeless in the current meta game to be called bottom tier. Plus, I think there should be more than one high tier to represent all the current tournament threats there are.

If that makes it weird to have no "Bottom Tier" even though there's technically a tier at the bottom, I'd suggest changing the naming of tiers to be letters instead of words. S for top, A for high, B for mid, C for low, + or - for any variation of those categories. My tier list has seven tiers divided into S, A+, A-, B+, B, B-, and C, which I feel most accurately describes the potential of all the characters in the game. Plus, this would help to remove any enmity resulting in a character being labeled as "Bottom Tier" as opposed to the lowest ranking being a C (which is still "average" quality).

My problem with changing the names has always been because I personally feel that Bottom Tier should be the one at the bottom in a named tier list regardless of viability, but if we use letters instead that really isn't a valid complaint anymore, I think this is a good idea.

One thing I noticed when thinking about how to nerf top tiers, at least the one that could see some tweeks, is how many ways there are to bring down the power level of Bayo and Cloud. Seriously, you can either nerf their specials, their aerials, their attributes like air speed or knockback of certain moves and every option you choose could be "fair", so to speak.
Diddy Kong is another character close to this considering his good throws, fair (that hitbox is absurd) and the lethal dtilt/banana combo but I think the latter is what shines the most.

Honestly, there's a part of me that believes these characters were designed to be ridiculously good, they just have so many things going for them.


Anyway, I think L1N3R1D3R made a good point about the tiers, so I made a poll where we'll decide on whether to use lettered or named tiers, if lettered wins I'll make another poll so we can vote on what the letters should be. Here's the poll: https://goo.gl/forms/InpYwVbthRGjThV42

 

[Zerp]

Lettered Tiers stomped, nobody actually voted for the Named Tiers lol.
Here's a poll to decide what letters we'll be using and which tier to start with: https://goo.gl/forms/rMtxlW9x7cC3fmfx2

 

[Zerp]

S, A+, A-, B+, B , B- and C Tier won and we'll be starting with C Tier and work our way up the tiers.

Here's the poll for C Tier: https://goo.gl/forms/LAWlITrPIwFdc7cr2
Also, because it's in the new google forms you may need to get a google account if you don't have one to sign in, not exactly sure how the vote spam prevention thingy works on this one, if you guys don't like it I'll go back to the old version of forms.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

We arrive back at the bottom...except this time, with a respectable title! C Tier, from worst to best:

How the lack of two moves can really hurt a character. Without Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump, they lose their key kill move and a great neutral/recovery move, dropping them to the bottom of the list. At least the other characters here have something you can seriously worry about, whereas Mii Brawler has mediocre combos and nothing else.

• F- and D-smash should have a few extra frames as a sourspot so they aren't way too risky for their reward.
• One of their throws should kill earlier so they get better reward for grab above combo percents.
• D-air could use the same treatment as F- and D-smash, or a slight decrease in overall lag.
• Soaring Axe Kick should go significantly farther so it has a reason to be used over the other options.
• Head-On Assault should do more to aerial opponents and grab the ledge better so it has more overall versatility.
• (Other custom moves that should be buffed but don't alter the 1111 version are Exploding Side Kick, Headache Maker, and maybe Foot Flurry. Meanwhile, Helicopter Kick should be nerfed.)

Duh. How could I not place her around the bottom with how little she has to show for herself?

• She needs a bit more range. Other characters have crazy disjoints on moves that would have already had decent range, why can't Jigglypuff have slight disjoints on her otherwise puny hitboxes?
• Slightly increase grounded mobility, or actually make her the fastest in the air. One of the two.
• F-throw and U-throw should kill better, and D-throw should combo better.
• Rollout and Sing are terrible for many reasons, but Rollout should not freefall in the air after it connects, and Sing should do something to aerial opponents and not activate counters.
• And, of course, fix Rest to always Star/Screen KO onstage and Blast KO offstage (or with little time left).

I could actually see a well-polished version of Mii Swordfighter be a tournament threat, but sadly Sakurai didn't take the effort to make them a polished character, so they end up all the way down here.

• Those hitboxes need to be addressed. They just don't function as they appear they should.
• Some laggy attacks could be a bit stronger, like F-tilt and F-smash.
• Like Mii Brawler, one of their throws should kill earlier so they have a bit more reward for the grab.
• N-air could use a decrease in lag to make it an actually effective pressure-escaping tool.
• Airborne Assault, why are you so weak for how telegraphed your movement is?
• Stone Scabbard should travel farther and have a rising hitbox so the other up-B options aren't better by far.
• (Other custom moves that should be buffed but don't alter the 1111 version are Blade Flurry, Surging Slash, Skyward Slash Dash, and Power Thrust.)

You were a glitchy mess to start with, and now you're a less glitchy but less viable mess. You need some help.

• Revert all the nerfs except the ones to Gordo. None of the others were warranted in any way.
• Meanwhile, decrease end lag of Gordo so the tennis playstyle it causes is less favored toward the opponent, and make it always stick to the wall instead of being dependent on RNG.
• Fix every single hitbox to actually match each move's animation and purpose.
• What is Jet Hammer? Why did it pass testing without anyone noticing how goddamn awful it is? Decrease its end lag so it might actually be a move worth using in a single situation.

While more functional than the other characters here, they still don't have much to work with in the default size and moveset, so they are low tier, even as the best of the default Miis.

• Again with the broken hitboxes and terrible grab game? What's up with that being a common trend in this tier?
• U-smash really needs to connect better. Its knockback angles don't work right most of the time.
• D-air needs to not be terrible. At least Ness's laggy and short-lasting D-air is decently powerful and has a deceptive autocancel window, whereas this move has nothing going for it.
• Their special moves are actually great for the most part. But Fox's Reflector got buffed while theirs stayed the same, so give that the same buffs as Fox's.
• (Other custom moves that should be buffed but don't alter the 1111 version are Laser Blaze, Stealth Blast, and Arm Rocket.)

(For reference, I will not be placing Guest XXXX Miis in my posts, as I don't have them in my tier list, but I will vote for them in the poll. So when I discuss the Miis in this post, I am referring to their more common (sadly), Guest 1111 form. XXXX Brawler would be A+ or A-, XXXX Gunner would be A- or B+, and XXXX Swordfighter would be B or B-.)

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler: My thoughts on this tier

From best to worst

Most people don't think he's bottom tier but he also doesn't have much going for him, he has weak results with only a few break-out victories here and there, his approach is horrid, and his saving graces competitively are his decent MUs vs high tiers like ,, and, but that isn't even special among the bottom tiers, two of those the community dubbed worst in the game does roughly as well against. During the invitational I remember thinking "OMG Kirby's in Grand Finals, he's going to be great this game isn't he? It's 64 Kirby's second coming, yay!", but my first impression was dead wrong. Why did they ever decide to nerf you from Brawl? What did you do to deserve this!?

Either give him more airspeed or copy Project M and give him a move like the sideways Final Cutter, just do something that helps him with his approach, and I'd also increase his range on many of his moves to at least their Brawl sizes, that way he hopefully won't get zoned out quite as hard.


Honestly, I think just increasing her air speed, getting rid of side-B's helplessness in air, and making Down-B useful would do her wonders, she's a lot like Kirby in that her airspeed holds her back a lot.


Nearly every dededecision the dededevelopment team's made when patching our King has brought me dededespair and pain. How dededespicable of them.


Hey dev team, if you by some chance ever see this, please use the keyboard keys Ctrl+C over Project M's Ganondorf files, then hit Ctrl+V in Smash 5, it'll be great.


What I'd do for Mii Swordie is give him less end-lag in general, increase the range of his moves, buff his recovery and his projectile tornado.


Honestly, I really don't care much for what they do, just that they do something! PLEASE!?


I'm convinced he's only spared the title "worst in the game" by the public purely because most people have never played as/against him, he has a decent combo game and decent mobility, but other than that he's kind of as mediocre as humanly possible, he distinctly lacks the comeback factor that Jigglypuff and Ganondorf have, there's really nothing you have to fear about him, and that's his greatest weakness.

Here's the poll's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...W6FEegDbZgrjTZxZ_7U7inbJf4Z3kjg/viewanalytics

Interestingly, all got 50% or more votes for being in C Tier.

Here's the poll for B- Tier: https://goo.gl/forms/0L8O5V8D8kMfQBnx2

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Zerp The poll's broken again.

Anyway, B- Tier, from worst to best:

His moveset is actually scary, as Gungnir recently proved (which is why he isn't in C Tier), and if he didn't have such garbage mobility, he might be able to show it more than he does now.

• Buff that mobility. The biggest reason he's near the bottom right now is because a clone of a character that thrives off mobility falls apart when you make him the slowest overall character in the game. Even a 15% mobility buff, which would still leave him as one of the slowest characters in the game (bottom 5 walk speed and jump height, bottom 10 run speed and air speed), would immediately give him much more access to his mostly great moves, likely pushing him at least two entire tiers up.
• His grab needs a bit more range. His throws just aren't good enough to justify this poor grab.
• And I have to address the only bad moves in his kit, U-tilt and Warlock Punch. Make them useful for something, please.

On the other hand, Zelda has some noticeable flaws in her moveset that make her worse than her slight mobility problem.

• Buff her grounded mobility by 15%. She's actually decently fast in the air, but her ground speed is too slow, nullifying her amazing grounded moveset.
• Does she really need two Knees as spacing aerials? Increase their sweetspot size or make them autocancel better so she doesn't have to be extremely precise for them to be useful.
• Din's Fire is a bad move, and all of you should know it by now. Why on earth does it make her go into freefall?
• Farore's Wind is a great move, but I'd still like to decrease its end lag. This would help her recover when the move is slightly misaimed/bounces off the stage, and also make it harder to punish as an offensive move. If this makes it too ridiculous, the appearance hitbox can be made a bit weaker to compensate, but this issue deserves to be fixed.
• Phantom Slash should have less end lag so she can more effectively space out the opponent and protect her recovery.

Even after his buffs, he still doesn't perform too well because his moveset has a lot of moves that are either garbage or almost great. Here are how to fix some of them:

• Jabs and tilts: jabs and D-tilt should connect better, F-tilt should be more powerful, U-tilt should have more range.
• Grab game: On par with Pac-Man's as the worst in the game, with a needlessly laggy grab with deceptively small range and four throws that just fall short of maybe being useful. Buff it in some way, I don't care.
• Bowser Jr. is weird like Mii Swordfighter where most of his aerials are great except N-air. Please make it a bit quicker or longer lasting.
• What. Is. Clown. Cannon. Sakurai.
• Clown Car Dash should not use up his double jump, so it can be used before double jump as a recovery mixup.
• Speaking of recovery, why is Abandon Ship so easy to gimp?

We used to have 2ManyCooks representing him the most, but with him opting instead for Mario, all we really have at high level is B7Games. Like Ganondorf, a slow clone of a character who thrives off being agile doesn't work out in the end.

• Round all damage percents UP to the nearest percent. It's clear that their damage was made as a multiple of Mario's because of the weird decimals, but it wasn't made high enough to make up for the huge mobility nerf.
• Raise the angle of U-air a bit so it isn't so easy to escape his combos. Something like Meta Knight's would work well while still being mainly horizontal knockback with DI.
• I don't really get the purpose of D-air. It's too laggy to be a combo extender or an escape tool, and its knockback is useless both for comboing and killing. Please do something with this pointless tool.
• Megavitamins should be a bit less laggy to make up for them being less effective than Fireballs due to their higher bounce.
• Dr. Tornado should have less end lag so it's better for recovery and less gimpable.

He was on the rise in 2016, especially with Alphicans nearly 3-1'ing Nairo at GOML. However, we haven't really seen much from him lately, and with his biggest main dropping him for a better character (like Dr. Mario), the future is looking grim.

• His grab being bad makes sense, but his throws being mediocre doesn't. Make them all better at what they do.
• His aerials being so weak and laggy in the air make sense, but at least decrease their landing lag (especially B-air and D-air) and make one of them autocancel at the start, so he can more quickly return to his amazing ground game.
• KO Uppercut being weaker in the air makes sense, but why is it THAT much weaker? Make it more powerful.
• Revert the nerf to aerial Jolt Haymaker's distance. It was already terrible enough before the nerf, why make it even worse just to appeal to the For Glory noobs?

I'm a firm believer that she could be two entire tiers up if only her hitboxes made sense. Unfortunately they don't, so only John Numbers and occasionally CaptainZack (but usually for disrespect) use her to good effect, leading to this low placement.

• As I mentioned, those hitboxes need to be addressed. Making them all a bit larger would immediately fix her biggest problems and boost her up the tier list.
• Jab is not nearly good enough to be that unsafe. Lower the angle of hits 1 and 2 to make the opponent more likely to be on the ground to get buried, and make hit 3 more powerful so it's a better finisher if it doesn't bury.
• Her B-air could be better if the entire first frame was a sweetspot and the sourspot lasted longer, rather than the situation it's in now.
• Other moves that could use slight buffs to make her a bit better overall: D-tilt, D-smash, D-throw, Sun Salutation, Super Hoop.

 

[Zerp]

Zerp The poll's broken again.

I don't know how I manage to break the poll so consistently, maybe I've been cursed or something? Either way, it's fixed now.

 

[Zerp]

I'll put down my thoughts in a bit.
Here's B- Tier's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...0i0Y_7SPB8jzSbavXwcwDjrWWSoL_Lg/viewanalytics
And here's B Tier's poll:https://goo.gl/forms/efYamANHrsmM7xw83

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

When I reordered my tier list a while ago, I hadn't bothered to change the tier names before, but I noticed recently that there was a big divide in tournament likelihood between B+ and B, as B+ and above (40 characters) all had potential to be serious tournament threats in my eyes, while B and below didn't. Thus, I reclassified my tier list so that current B tier became B+, current B+ became A-, and current A- became A to reflect this new mindset of mine.

Regardless, here is B Tier [my B+ Tier], the cutoff of top-level unviability, from worst to best:

He's still doing some stuff through Tea and Sinji, giving him the edge over Wii Fit Trainer. I really wish his crazy projectile game could actually be used well, but his tools just don't allow that to happen much.

• (His smash attacks should have less end lag. The power buff means nothing when they're so punishable.)
• GRAB.
• (His D-air is pretty bad. Why is it so easy to escape and have so much landing lag?)
• Bonus Fruit should charge faster and have less end lag on the throw. This alone would make his whole game plan so much better, as he could actually take advantage of his crazy projectile game. In fact, this buff alone would probably make the smash attack and D-air buffs unnecessary.
• And, of course, fix the corner bounce glitch with Power Pellet. I don't know why this hasn't been addressed yet.

Komota beating Ally and Kid Goggles nearly beating Mr. R showed people that, like Ganondorf, Kirby's mobility is really the only thing hindering him from being a great character.

• So, of course, buff the mobility. Make it at least 10% better, and suddenly his moveset functions as intended.
• N-air should have a bit less startup and a lot less end lag. This would make it better as an escape and combo tool, as well as make it not nearly as risky to go for off stage.
• Besides maybe Inhale, his special moves need attention. They don't do enough offensively to make up for their high lag.

He's risen a bit in terms of results recently, leading me to place him this high. He still has a few crucial flaws in his moveset that prevent him from getting results and being in the tier above, though:

• For being a dragon, he's still sluggish in the air. Give him an extra double jump, and slightly increase his air speed again.
• F-smash isn't threatening enough. It should do more damage so it does more to shields. If that makes its knockback too crazy, the knockback numbers can be slightly decreased.
• Flare Blitz's crucial problem is not its lag, not its self-damage, but rather its tumble state off a bounce. If this were changed to not put him into tumble, it would immediately be so much better for recovery and safer pressure.

TLTC just beat Ranai, giving Palutena the definite edge over everyone below her. But she still has a lot of laughable moves that mostly overshadow her crazy tools. Let's see how we can tune her up:

• F-tilt, U-tilt, F-smash, and D-smash should all have a bit less end lag. They're just too laggy for their usefulness.
• What is the purpose of D-air when it has tiny range, weak knockback, and lots of end lag? Make one of those aspects better so the move isn't so meaninglessly risky to use.
• Autoreticle might actually be a good spacing tool if it had less end lag. Don't make it constantly home the opponent, though, that would be more ridiculous than most people realize.

I would have likely placed him near the bottom of B- Tier below Civil War, but AC's performance there as well as many other Falcos suddenly doing better makes me put him this high. He still has some problems, though:

• Don't buff his air speed because his aerials, especially F-air, would actually be broken with better air speed. But his ground speed has no reason to be as low as it is, so buff that to help his neutral and follow-up game.
• D-air is better than I originally thought, but it should be more powerful because it still isn't that good.
• Fire Bird should be a lot stronger to make up for it going shorter than Fox's and having terrible mobility afterward.
• (F-smash, Blaster, and Echo Reflector could also use slight buffs, but higher ground mobility fixes most of their big problems.)

With Regi, KOSSismoss, and others showing up recently, I can confidently put him in this tier. He still has some basic problems with his moveset that could easily be fixed, though:

• (Make D-tilt launch vertically, and then it would have great combo ability and still kill just as well.)
• Make F-smash have greater priority on the sweetspot, and make D-smash's sourspot have more knockback.
• None of his aerials autocancel in a short hop, which makes his approach game terrible. You could argue that all of his aerials except D-air should autocancel, but the ones that would help him the most are B-air and F-air.
• Chef needs less startup so it can do a better job at spacing and gimping.
• Rebalance Oil Panic to have less lag while absorbing to make it applicable in more situations, but decrease the damage multiplier or increase the startup of the attack so it isn't as broken when it is unleashed.

He was doing really well before, but now other characters have simply gotten more attention and results recently, leading Ike to be outclassed and ultimately not be viable at top-level.

• F-smash and U-smash aren't quite powerful enough to make up for their immense lag. Buff their damage.
• D-air doesn't have much purpose right now, so make it have a short-lasting sourspot that launches upward (like Cloud's D-air, but not as long-lasting because that's ridiculous) to give it some more versatility.
• Aether should travel a bit farther both vertically and horizontally so it isn't so helpless against a lot of the cast.

(Somewhere in this tier: Guest XXXX )

 

[Zerp]

I was planning on doing both my B- and B tiers today but I think I'll list my B- and B tier when I settle into my new home instead, thankfully though I doubt I'll wait long until I get internet access so we probably aren't going to be skipping a week or anything.

Anyway, here's the poll for B+ tier: https://goo.gl/forms/ljRCvLO9gejNMCEN2

And here's B Tier's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Pj86m70PgsI8duRYs6yNo-Ua9Yg5OyA/viewanalytics

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Hooray, the truly viable characters begin! B+ Tier [my A- Tier], from worst to best:

Well, Kameme's not doing much to prove his viability. Luckily, The Wall and Poltergust are, so Yoshi just barely edges into the viable characters. Obviously he still has a couple of problems that should be addressed:

• His grab game in general needs slight buffing. I don't understand why his grab is so laggy, or why most of his throws have too much lag and too little knockback to do anything useful besides "positioning".
• What is Egg Roll? Why does it exist in this trash form?

I was one of the many people who thought he was low tier not too long ago, but Ryo and HyperKirby among others have helped me change my mind. Like Yoshi, though, he still needs some attention:

• He struggles to move vertically due to his low jump height on top of his fast fall. Increase his jump height, which would improve mostly his juggling and recovery.
• OPTIONAL: Sweetspot U-air is pitifully weak, worse than Lucina's and not much better than Marth's sourspot. Increase its knockback.
• I guess D-air's startup and knockback is fine, but it still has too much end lag to be worth using most of the time.

He has a lot of great moves, the best of which of course is Waft, but he also has a lot of junk in his kit that need fixing:

• Jab needs to connect better and be more powerful, because right now it has no good purpose.
• All of his smash attacks need attention. They're all not good enough for their intended use.
• Corkscrew is a bad move, as it isn't really a threatening attack and it doesn't go far. Make it a better attack, because his recovery is already good enough, and he needs more offensive tools.

R.O.B. is a character like Yoshi that looks like they have tons of crazy tools, but also fatal flaws that keep them from being higher. But fixing those flaws will make him not be R.O.B. anymore, so let's buff his worst tools:

• Arm Rotor should have a lot less lag. Right now its forward movement, reflection properties, and mediocre knockback is nullified by how slow it is.
• Other moves that should get slight buffs are jab, F-tilt, D-smash, and B-air.

He's really feeling it lately, with Kome and Nicko playing equally well and taking out major tournament threats like Shuton and ANTi. He really doesn't need too much changing right now, all I can think of is two moves:

• D-air isn't strong enough. It's very similar to U-air with its high lag and connection issues, except U-air is stupidly strong to make up for it, whereas D-air doesn't have much going for it.
• And, the bigger issue, Back Slash. This is mostly a bad move because it causes a self-destruct if used offstage, which makes offstage Monado Art play riskier than it should be. Its other flaws are excusable, but this one is detrimental to his entire game plan. Make it cancelable with some lag, or make it end at some point.

Since the last round, I've gone from not feeling this character at all to picking him up as a serious pocket character, so I know more about his game plan now. He really only needs one buff, but I can think of four other things I'd like to be changed, which might be excessive:

• NECESSARY: Make Duck Jump have better acceleration both vertically and horizontally. This would make it start up more quickly, travel higher in turn, and be easier to weave around in the air, making it not such a trash recovery move.
• APPRECIATED: Make his smash attacks connect better somehow. This would give him a few more kill options.
• APPRECIATED: Make F-air autocancel in a short hop. This is his worst aerial right now, and I'd like to make it better by increasing its safety and followup potential. (Why B-air, U-air, and D-air autocancel so early but F-air doesn't baffles me.)
• OPTIONAL: Make Trick Shot (the Can) able to be deflected in the air. This would open up so many opportunities for it, especially offstage, and make Can play even more diverse and unique.
• OPTIONAL: I don't know how they'd do it, but make Clay Shooting explode with a button that isn't neutral-B. This would allow the Can to be taken out while the clay pigeon is out as well as make them both controllable separately after being taken out, further enhancing his projectile play.

He has a great kit for zoning out and doing damage when he gets in, but unfortunately he suffers against pressure and edgeguarding so much that we haven't seen much of him since Dath did really well at Shine 2016.

• Buff his grounded mobility. I get that as a tactician he's not supposed to be too fast, but why is he THE absolute slowest?
• OPTIONAL: What is F-tilt supposed to do? Someone please tell me, or I'm keeping it here.
• OPTIONAL: Make Elwind only count as one use of the Wind Tome, making him able to recover longer (and not flop in the middle of his recovery) as well as giving more reason to opt for the wind jab.
• Why does Nosferatu put him into free fall when he successfully lands it in the air?

/ With Earth opting for other characters as of recent, they just barely don't make the cut for A Tier due to their "well-balanced" gameplay being a bit too honest. Here's what I would change:

• BOTH: Slightly increase mobility, but too much aerial mobility would actually be ridiculous given their aerials.
• PIT: For some reason, Upperdash Arm wasn't buffed when Electroshock Arm was. Make Upperdash Arm have less lag to compensate for it being weaker than Dark Pit's side-B.
• DARK PIT: Likewise, make F-tilt less laggy to compensate for it being weaker than Pit's. Also, buff Silver Bow to have more knockback to make it worth its higher lag and lower mobility.

(Somewhere in this tier: Guest XXXX )

 

[L9999]

When I reordered my tier list a while ago, I hadn't bothered to change the tier names before, but I noticed recently that there was a big divide in tournament likelihood between B+ and B, as B+ and above (40 characters) all had potential to be serious tournament threats in my eyes, while B and below didn't. Thus, I reclassified my tier list so that current B tier became B+, current B+ became A-, and current A- became A to reflect this new mindset of mine.

Regardless, here is B Tier [my B+ Tier], the cutoff of top-level unviability, from worst to best:

He's still doing some stuff through Tea and Sinji, giving him the edge over Wii Fit Trainer. I really wish his crazy projectile game could actually be used well, but his tools just don't allow that to happen much.

• (His smash attacks should have less end lag. The power buff means nothing when they're so punishable.)
• GRAB.
• (His D-air is pretty bad. Why is it so easy to escape and have so much landing lag?)
• Bonus Fruit should charge faster and have less end lag on the throw. This alone would make his whole game plan so much better, as he could actually take advantage of his crazy projectile game. In fact, this buff alone would probably make the smash attack and D-air buffs unnecessary.
• And, of course, fix the corner bounce glitch with Power Pellet. I don't know why this hasn't been addressed yet.

Komota beating Ally and Kid Goggles nearly beating Mr. R showed people that, like Ganondorf, Kirby's mobility is really the only thing hindering him from being a great character.

• So, of course, buff the mobility. Make it at least 10% better, and suddenly his moveset functions as intended.
• N-air should have a bit less startup and a lot less end lag. This would make it better as an escape and combo tool, as well as make it not nearly as risky to go for off stage.
• Besides maybe Inhale, his special moves need attention. They don't do enough offensively to make up for their high lag.

He's risen a bit in terms of results recently, leading me to place him this high. He still has a few crucial flaws in his moveset that prevent him from getting results and being in the tier above, though:

• For being a dragon, he's still sluggish in the air. Give him an extra double jump, and slightly increase his air speed again.
• F-smash isn't threatening enough. It should do more damage so it does more to shields. If that makes its knockback too crazy, the knockback numbers can be slightly decreased.
• Flare Blitz's crucial problem is not its lag, not its self-damage, but rather its tumble state off a bounce. If this were changed to not put him into tumble, it would immediately be so much better for recovery and safer pressure.

TLTC just beat Ranai, giving Palutena the definite edge over everyone below her. But she still has a lot of laughable moves that mostly overshadow her crazy tools. Let's see how we can tune her up:

• F-tilt, U-tilt, F-smash, and D-smash should all have a bit less end lag. They're just too laggy for their usefulness.
• What is the purpose of D-air when it has tiny range, weak knockback, and lots of end lag? Make one of those aspects better so the move isn't so meaninglessly risky to use.
• Autoreticle might actually be a good spacing tool if it had less end lag. Don't make it constantly home the opponent, though, that would be more ridiculous than most people realize.

I would have likely placed him near the bottom of B- Tier below Civil War, but AC's performance there as well as many other Falcos suddenly doing better makes me put him this high. He still has some problems, though:

• Don't buff his air speed because his aerials, especially F-air, would actually be broken with better air speed. But his ground speed has no reason to be as low as it is, so buff that to help his neutral and follow-up game.
• D-air is better than I originally thought, but it should be more powerful because it still isn't that good.
• Fire Bird should be a lot stronger to make up for it going shorter than Fox's and having terrible mobility afterward.
• (F-smash, Blaster, and Echo Reflector could also use slight buffs, but higher ground mobility fixes most of their big problems.)

With Regi, KOSSismoss, and others showing up recently, I can confidently put him in this tier. He still has some basic problems with his moveset that could easily be fixed, though:

• (Make D-tilt launch vertically, and then it would have great combo ability and still kill just as well.)
• Make F-smash have greater priority on the sweetspot, and make D-smash's sourspot have more knockback.
• None of his aerials autocancel in a short hop, which makes his approach game terrible. You could argue that all of his aerials except D-air should autocancel, but the ones that would help him the most are B-air and F-air.
• Chef needs less startup so it can do a better job at spacing and gimping.
• Rebalance Oil Panic to have less lag while absorbing to make it applicable in more situations, but decrease the damage multiplier or increase the startup of the attack so it isn't as broken when it is unleashed.

He was doing really well before, but now other characters have simply gotten more attention and results recently, leading Ike to be outclassed and ultimately not be viable at top-level.

• F-smash and U-smash aren't quite powerful enough to make up for their immense lag. Buff their damage.
• D-air doesn't have much purpose right now, so make it have a short-lasting sourspot that launches upward (like Cloud's D-air, but not as long-lasting because that's ridiculous) to give it some more versatility.
• Aether should travel a bit farther both vertically and horizontally so it isn't so helpless against a lot of the cast.

Why would you group Ike with all that filth? Ike is way more viable than the likes of Kirby or Palutena.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Why would you group Ike with all that filth? Ike is way more viable than the likes of Kirby or Palutena.

Then explain.
Don't just say it and expect us to understand why...

 

[L9999]

Then explain.
Don't just say it and expect us to understand why...

Is an explanation necessary for why Ike is above them? Huge disjoints, footstool combos, throw combos, grab KO confirms, good survivability, good abuse of rage, undoubted KO power, and a recovery that is not complete ass.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Is an explanation necessary for why Ike is above them? Huge disjoints, footstool combos, throw combos, grab KO confirms, good survivability, good abuse of rage, undoubted KO power, and a recovery that is not complete ***.

Yes you do and not to discredit your points, but you basically just described Charizard. (Minus the grab-confirm, but he's got a kill throw that's aided by platforms, so good enough)

 

[L9999]

Yes you do and not to discredit your points, but you basically just described Charizard. (Minus the grab-confirm, but he's got a kill throw that's aided by platforms, so good enough)

Charizard doesn't have huge disjoints, and he has way worse disadvantage state.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Why would you group Ike with all that filth? Ike is way more viable than the likes of Kirby or Palutena.

My tiers are ranked, and Ike is at the top of the tier (note how it's ranked from worst to best). I just haven't seen enough from him recently for him to warrant being among the likes of the tier above him. All of the characters in that tier have shown to be serious threats in the meta game to some extent, whereas the most Ike has done is get top 8 at SoCal locals or small Japanese tournaments.

In general he's not that viable due to every other swordfighter (besides the Mii) having a notable edge over him in some way, so people dropped him in favor of them because there's no reason to use him in the current meta game. That's why he's at the top of the "unviable" characters, because the existence of the other swordfighters alone makes him irrelevant in the current meta game.

 

[L9999]

My tiers are ranked, and Ike is at the top of the tier (note how it's ranked from worst to best). I just haven't seen enough from him recently for him to warrant being among the likes of the tier above him. All of the characters in that tier have shown to be serious threats in the meta game to some extent, whereas the most Ike has done is get top 8 at SoCal locals or small Japanese tournaments.

In general he's not that viable due to every other swordfighter (besides the Mii) having a notable edge over him in some way, so people dropped him in favor of them because there's no reason to use him in the current meta game. That's why he's at the top of the "unviable" characters, because the existence of the other swordfighters alone makes him irrelevant in the current meta game.

Yet you rank Roy in viable even though his results aren't much better?

For reference, my B Tier.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Yet you rank Roy in viable even though his results aren't much better?

For reference, my B Tier.

Roy has done well at national tournaments, like Smash Con 2016 and Momocon 2017, through players Ryo and HyperKirby, getting respectable top-32 placements and only losing to top-level players. The last time I remember an Ike doing anything big at a national level was Ryo and Rango before they opted for other Fire Emblem characters. Besides that, the only notable Ikes remaining to my knowledge that haven't picked up and done better with other characters are Ike Tyson from SoCal and Corrin from Japan, and they haven't done much outside of regional tournaments. Yes, his results aren't much better, but they are better in a way that makes Roy viable and Ike not in my opinion.

The fact that we both put those two characters in such close proximity does say something about how close they are in viability, but I think Roy has the upper edge in national tournaments.

I like how we're having more discussion in this thread, though. It was pretty barren until this happened!

 

[Zerp]

Spoiler

I haven't played Super Smash Bros. for Wii U this week and I don't trust myself to be able to explain my opinions at all without at least a little recent playtime, however, I've just set up the Wii U and a new TV, so I'll give my thoughts on B-, B, and B+ Tier tomorrow.

Here's B+ tier's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Fpz6-CsQb6r4_sSm5kX08b2yGK_S9vQ/viewanalytics

And here's A- Tier's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/dufbZvcyWX1HhRDz2

Also, I find it hilarious that everyone's discussing while I'm unable to see anything and the moment I get internet access after moving everyone just stops, it's like everyone's in on a plan or something...

 

[L9999]

A Tier:

Falcon is too good. Ryu is finally proving himself. Don't sleep on Olimar. Weegee and DK grab2win is too good. MK is a silent character with good results. Megaman has fallen off. The frog is good. Lucario is a bit overrated. DLC killed Killager. The rat almost never does anything, spot saying its top 15. I only place Toon Link here because of my high opinion and Mexico bias, the character hasn't done much.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

We're only getting better! A- Tier [my A Tier], from worst to best:

Whatever happened to Taiheita? Whatever, Mekos is doing enough work to make up for him, so he still barely clenches this tier. I honestly think lack of results is the only thing keeping him down, but I do want to buff a few of his moves:

• U-smash is simply too weak to make up for its lag. Why was its power nerfed from Brawl, again?
• OPTIONAL: N-air and D-air could use a decrease in SDI multiplier, and U-air could use some more active frames.
• PK Freeze is a lot better than PK Flash, but there's still no reason it should send him into free fall afterward.

Yes, he's this good. Can we stop denying it at this point? T's performance at Civil War was amazing, and he's recently proven that it wasn't a fluke, either, getting a lot more wins in Japan under his belt. This just shows how relevant Link is in the current meta game. Of course, he still has a few moves that could use some buffs:

• If they're going to treat B-air like a combo move, decrease its knockback so it is a real combo move.
• Hero's Bow and Gale Boomerang, while useful, have too much startup to be effective in most situations. Decrease their startup to make them more versatile.

Yes, she's this good. Can we stop denying it at this point? Besides her occasional killing problem, she actually has a great moveset that's good at a lot of things, recently proven by IcyMist, ESAM, Pyreeze, and Linden among others. That doesn't mean she's perfect, though, as she still needs some tune-ups:

• OPTIONAL: I don't know what it is, but F-tilt feels too laggy for how weak it is. Decrease end lag.
• Her smash attacks are all subpar. F-smash and D-smash should be stronger, and U-smash should have bigger hitboxes.
• OPTIONAL: Her grab game is mostly fine, but what's up with pivot grab being so laggy compared to the others? Decrease its end lag.
• Remember in Melee when Missiles actually had a good use? Those were the days... But seriously, decrease lag of Missiles.

Worse than DK due to his moveset not complementing his grab game as well (and grab killing later), albeit a better vertical recovery and higher weight, but still a quite solid pick with respectable results and serious counterpick potential. At this point I only want two moves to be tuned up:

• What is the point of D-smash? How is it any better than any of his other moves?
• Fire Breath is mostly useless due to its flinching hitboxes being too small. Make the flinch hitboxes bigger.

Previously overhyped for "potential" after iStudying's performance at B.E.A.S.T. 6, this frog still has a lot of things going for him. It's a shame that Greninja Saga forced them all to be eliminated prematurely by fighting each other and then ZeRo in losers (even though Greninja dittos were hype), limiting the amount of top-level experience he should have gotten.

• N-air is too laggy in the air, a guaranteed disadvantage state if not death when used offstage. Decrease end lag.
• OPTIONAL: When U-air launches or properly drags the opponent down, it's amazing, but unfortunately the multi-hits don't consistently semi-spike or connect to the last hit. Make all initial hits semi-spike to fix both these issues.
• The priority between Shadow Sneak and Hydro Pump needs to change. Shadow Sneak can be useful, but it shouldn't take priority over Hydro Pump, a generally more versatile move, when no other special moves behave like that.

With FOW and The Great Gonzalez becoming relevant, he rises above his Earthbound cousin. He has one move that's just too good to be okay, but he also has two moves that are quite the opposite.

• I'm not buying B-throw being quite that strong. No other kill throws, even the ones that were nerfed, are nearly as powerful no matter the stage positioning as this one, killing at unreasonable percents for a move that is guaranteed after landing a quick grab. This is especially unfair given how quickly and easily he can rack up damage, and his small size and quick aerials preventing him from being oppressed in the neutral like heavyweights.
• D-air needs some attention. It has a nice autocancel window, but it's not as ridiculous of an aerial attack as his other aerials. Decrease end lag, because its power is already decent.
• Why. Does. PK. Flash. Free. Fall.

Sadly, ever since Hyuga's absence, he hasn't done enough to prove his position in the tier above anymore. What's up with his moveset that's preventing others from doing well with him? The one thing I can really think of is:

• Besides his amazing kill throw, his grab game really isn't that good, with a laggy grab and no combo throws of any kind. Give everything about his grab game besides B-throw a buff of some kind, especially making one of his throws truly combo (at least at lower percents).

Considered by many top players to be an undiscovered high-top tier, she has a great theory but surprisingly low results to back it up, landing her in the middle of the viable characters for now. Here are my comments on her:

• DON'T buff mobility. I think the mobility nerf in 1.1.5 was reasonable, as with slightly higher mobility her aerials and Dragon Lunge would actually be ridiculous and near unchallengeable.
• Instead, give her slight tune-ups on U-smash and F-throw, and maybe F-tilt, U-smash, and Dragon Ascent.

Just barely not making the cut for A+ because only Samsora is really doing big things with her, but there are several other players pulling in respectable results, and what she has done is crazy. Honestly, she doesn't have one noticeably bad aspect about her play, but a couple of things could be slightly tuned up:

• Air speed, jab, F-tilt, U-tilt, D-smash, U-throw, and Toad could all use tiny buffs.

(Somewhere in this tier: Guest XXXX )

 

[Zerp]

Bad opinion time.

Spoiler: Personal views on B-, B, and B+ Tiers

Wildcards:
I was thinking of putting both of these characters in B or B+, but I'm personally very conflicted on where to place either of them, for Yoshi I can either go with what his results tell me or what the frame data's telling me, which really ought to not be two different things. Yoshi's weird, he feels like he should be placing much better than he actually does, so I'm just going to hold off on putting him anywhere. Link's another story, I see how well T's doing but I'm also constantly being told by a Link Main I trust, I'm not exactly sure what I should believe or what I even actually believe.

B+
All the characters here are good by my standards, not as good as I'd like them to be (I'd prefer if everyone was given the Marth/Mewtwo treatment personally) but good enough that I won't be complaining much if they ended up not getting buffed in a hypothetical Smash Bros for Switch/surprise Patch 1.1.7.
B
Criminally insane opinion: I personally feel that B Tier is the lowest "viable" tier, and that characters in this tier can win majors with the right players piloting them, it'll be harder than doing the same with the others above them but it's the last tier where it's practical enough that you might actually see it happen.
B- 1111
Honestly, I feel that1111 all could very well be bottom tier, and the rest of B- Tier isn't very well off either, if there's a Smash bros game on the Switch I'd expect all of the characters in this tier and below it (sans because pessimism) to get massive buffs in it, these are the kind of characters that should be a priority.

 

[Zerp]

How's E3 going for everyone?
Here's the results for A- Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XILj3b71rmDXOn8UFribDCjYswLeOug/viewanalytics

<---This scrublord's A- Tier:
Quicknote: This and A+ Tier was the hardest tier for me to split apart.

Every character in this tier is a great character and are all very potent threats in the meta, however they're some threats in this game that manage to make even these characters feel underwhelming, but those characters a tad extreme, while these characters are only a tad less strong than I'd like them to be. Characters here could use some very, very, VERY slight buffs, but honestly, they don't need them.

Also, I'll write my thoughts for each specific character in this tier throughout the next couple of days, E3's got my attention right now.

Annnnnnyyyywwwwaaaaaayyyy, here's A+'s tier's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/t4hV2SaFawkji8cV2

 

[L9999]

I'm not buying B-throw being quite that strong.

It has been since Smash 64. Didn't break the game.

No other kill throws, even the ones that were nerfed, are nearly as powerful no matter the stage positioning as this one, killing at unreasonable percents for a move that is guaranteed after landing a quick grab.

Did you forget exist? Lucas and Captain Falcon have 3 kill throws.

This is especially unfair given how quickly and easily he can rack up damage, and his small size and quick aerials preventing him from being oppressed in the neutral like heavyweights.

are also small and deal a lot of damage easily. deal a lot of damage as well. Yeah, neutral, doesn't have one against sword dudes. He has to throw attacks like a jackass and hope they hit.

D-air needs some attention. It has a nice autocancel window, but it's not as ridiculous of an aerial attack as his other aerials. Decrease end lag, because its power is already decent.

Dair having less lag would be hilarious. Just look at this game from Shaky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsuXxXycPbo

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Here are the characters that are almost great but are slightly hindered in some way from being at the top, A+ Tier (worst to best):

With ScAtt becoming a bigger threat as of recent, Kameme's higher reliance on Sheik doesn't hurt Mega Man's representation as much, so he barely clutches this tier. None of his moves are bad or broken, but he could use some tune-ups on a few of his moves to make his moveset overall better:

• F-smash, F-air, Crash Bomber, and Leaf Shield are okay but could be better.

With Shuton and Myran really showing up recently, he certainly has reason to be up here. In fact, I'm cautious in giving him buffs, as most buffs I can think of would make him busted, because he already has a lot of moves with low lag and great versatility.

• Really all I'd do is make some more of his moves do something without Pikmin, especially grab.

Luigi's such a weird character since he functions like a heavyweight, with even better and deadlier combos in exchange for, well, not being heavy. But Elegant seems to be taking this character to the next level, optimizing a lot of his combos and becoming better at the neutral game, getting around his low mobility with his pressure from U-smash, aerials, and Fireball.

• Any higher mobility would make him absolutely busted in the advantage state, so don't do that.
• OPTIONAL: D-tilt could use some sort of buff, because it's basically meaningless right now.
• Ugh, Green Missile. Why is it such a punishable recovery move and worthless attack?
• Luigi Cyclone's auto-link angles could use a slight nerf in hit stun, making it not as good at gimping, in exchange for the move requiring fewer button presses to rise the full distance, making it better at recovery.

Ranai is still doing quite well, and Aarvark is still doing enough work on the side to prove that his crazy zoning theory is viable and makes him earn this tier. He doesn't need any changes, but if I were to change him:

• F-smash would get reduced knockback, because it's unfairly strong for how active it is.
• To compensate, grab would get reduced lag to open up more of his combo and kill options.

Yes, he's this good, and I'm amazed HIKARU was the first to seriously show it. Ever since his stunning top 8 run at Civil War, he seems to have summoned other players to use Donkey Kong to great success, solidifying his top 20 spot. His neutral and disadvantage might not be good, but his advantage is so good that he will always be a huge threat to the evolving meta game.

• Why. Does. Giant. Punch. Free. Fall. Sakurai. Pls.

Again, this might be overestimating him a little, but Tsu's performance at recent tournaments still has me convinced that he's this good. With my personal experience, he really only needs buffs to one move:

• Extremespeed needs to have less landing lag, and its headbonk should be fixed like Greninja's Hydro Pump was.

Pikachu's a weird case, where ESAM has really been showing up recently, but there are only a couple other players getting moderate success with him. As such, I hesitate to put him too high, but this feels appropriate. What's weird is that his moveset is mostly great, with one lackluster move and one crazy move:

• Skull Bash really isn't worth using unless the recovery absolutely requires it, as it has long charge-up, slow travel, and not that much power. I'd give it some sort of buff, probably in charge time.
• Quick Attack might be a better move overall, but Thunder is certainly his most unfair move. I'd make the spike hitbox of Thunder have high KBG instead of high BKB so it's not as good at gimping and the window for the kill confirm is smaller, and I'd also make the thunderbolt not come out immediately so he can't break combos with it.

I feel weird giving him the same buffs I wanted to before, as now I've seen the ridiculous stuff he can do in the advantage through Cashmere and especially Fatality, and I don't want to make him even better at his weaknesses. Though, of course, there is still one move that should obviously be buffed:

• Falcon Punch. Duh. Make it more powerful to compensate for its immense startup.

While not showing up as much as other characters in this tier, he stays this high for a similar reason as Donkey Kong. As mainly Abadango is proving, Meta Knight absolutely demolishes floaties, especially big ones, making him a constant threat to certain characters as their meta game evolves. When he shows up elsewhere, he's proven through Aba, MKLeo, Tyrant, and others that he can still efficiently deal with other characters, too. He doesn't need any changes, but if I were to change him:

• Drill Rush would get a buff in startup, as it's really slow and weak in comparison to the rest of his moves.
• To compensate, aerial Shuttle Loop's first hit would lose its high-knockback properties, which is what makes the move kill way too early at times. This "nerf" might actually even be a buff in some cases, as it can fail to connect to the second hit properly because of that hit, and unlike other multi-hit killing up-B's, you usually need the final hit to connect for it to kill.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

It has been since Smash 64. Didn't break the game.

Did you forget exist? Lucas and Captain Falcon have 3 kill throws.

are also small and deal a lot of damage easily. deal a lot of damage as well. Yeah, neutral, doesn't have one against sword dudes. He has to throw attacks like a ******* and hope they hit.

Dair having less lag would be hilarious. Just look at this game from Shaky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsuXxXycPbo

Okay, so I'm not a Ness expert. That doesn't change the fact that B-throw is ridiculous and D-air is a bit underwhelming.

You can make the case for Mewtwo's U-throw being a bit dumb, but at the same time it's only vertical, whereas Ness's starts horizontal and then turns to whatever direction he needs. As for the other two, you have to think about how the opponent will react with DI to choose the correct throw, as the only amazing kill throw either of them has is Lucas's U-throw. (And even in that case, Lucas's damage racking mostly relies on combos that are much harder to set up, execute, and adapt than Ness's.)
Yes, Ness's neutral kinda sucks, but his aerials being so great makes him easily able to reset to neutral if he's in disadvantage, giving him more chances to get into the advantage state.
Mostly I don't like how B-throw hardly requires any sort of thought or risk to it, unlike other kill throws or Ness's other kill options.

As for D-air, I didn't mean less landing lag or any better autocancels, which the Brawl video seems to show, I meant less aerial end lag. And it shouldn't be much of a decrease, just enough to make it look good next to his other aerials, which are amazing.

Do you have any discussion for any other characters rather than criticize my discussion? That's kinda the point of this thread...

 

[L9999]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Okay, so I'm not a Ness expert. That doesn't change the fact that B-throw is ridiculous and D-air is a bit underwhelming.

You can make the case for Mewtwo's U-throw being a bit dumb, but at the same time it's only vertical, whereas Ness's starts horizontal and then turns to whatever direction he needs. As for the other two, you have to think about how the opponent will react with DI to choose the correct throw, as the only amazing kill throw either of them has is Lucas's U-throw. (And even in that case, Lucas's damage racking mostly relies on combos that are much harder to set up, execute, and adapt than Ness's.)

Vertical kills are better because they can be done at every part of the map effectively. Horizontal requires to be near the ledge for the lowest possible % and a lot of rage+percent anywhere else.

As for A tier, I already posted mine.

A Tier:

I no longer think deserves A tier though, his meta is dead. If I had to change him, I would Brawlify him. Restore Dair, Bair, Quickdraw, and Down Throw.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Vertical kills are better because they can be done at every part of the map effectively. Horizontal requires to be near the ledge for the lowest possible % and a lot of rage+percent anywhere else.

But that's why Ness's B-throw is so good: because of its angle and extremely high knockback, it can kill early horizontally if you need it, or at somewhat higher percents it can kill either vertically or horizontally no matter the stage positioning even without rage. No other kill throws are nearly that strong to work both horizontally and vertically at reasonable percents, which is why Ness's B-throw is easily the most ridiculous kill throw, and deserving of a nerf after other, worse kill throws were nerfed.

For the comparison to earlier games that you mentioned earlier: Ness is in the lower tiers in all the other games, so clearly the B-throw being that strong didn't matter. However, here he's in the higher tiers, making his B-throw a serious threat that shouldn't be as thoughtless and risk-free as it is for a character like him.

 

[Zerp]

Agh, sorry for being 2 hours late, I was busy helping my grandparents with stuff, I'll post my indidvidual thoughts on the A- tier characters and my A+ tier tomorrow. Edit: I lied. Shame on me! Edit 2: Double shame on me!

Here's A+ Tier's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...cYGWwqSIb7CUJ1_5E-Y9sSJkNT844FQ/viewanalytics

And here's S Tier's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/iaX5YjYSjjJFhSVE2

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

At last, we have arrived at the top. But in my revised tier list, I've actually split up the remaining characters into those who are probably fine as is and those who deserve nerfs, which I'll mark here, too. Without further ado, S Tier, worst to best:


Probably fine as is (any changes I list are optional, and would hopefully rebalance them without changing their overall viability):

Since the last list, Locus has been improving more and more to the point where Locus is easily a top 20 threat and Ryu is probably S Tier. Based on the matchup and the current situation, he can either seem completely dominant or helpless.

• No changes. His insane punish game is made up for by his serious struggle against lame play, so he's fine.

/ They should be next to each other as many high-level players have recently shown, and with Marth's insane tournament record in the recent past, there's no way they wouldn't be top tier.

• No changes. Personally I would still give small buffs to dash attack and D-smash, but I can't think of a good nerf that they would deserve to compensate besides maybe U-smash (hitboxes) or B-air, so I'll refrain for now.

I personally think he's a bit too good, but the competitive scene has found efficient ways to deal with his most broken tools, so he's not too high within S Tier. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• Why do U-smash and F-air do so much damage for how quick they are? It seems that they designed these moves for a slow character, like he was at release, but they became overwhelming when his mobility got huge buffs.
• To compensate, F-smash and grab could use some buffs so they aren't mediocre.

The true juggler of this game, with most upward attacks being ridiculous in some way. I'm fine with his juggling being so good because his recovery is really linear, but I'm not fine with his gimping ability. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• F-air could use a nerf in hit stun like Luigi's Cyclone so it isn't as good at gimping.
• To compensate, U-throw, B-throw, and Blaster could all use slight buffs.

Even after winning several majors, Mario isn't among the elite because his theory isn't all that broken, with lots of matchups supposedly in his disadvantage due to range and approach issues. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• Of course U-smash had to be talked about. This move is straight up unfair, not because of its power or quick startup, but because of those things combined with its low end lag, making it basically a free pressure tool.
• To compensate, I would make D-air connect better and slightly buff F-tilt and Fireball as well.

The Blue Blur is getting widespread results over here, but he's also getting dominant results in Japan, where their best player uses Sonic like nobody else, showing what he's truly capable of. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• There's no reason Spin Dash should have intangibility. Doesn't its high speed and instant release make it hard enough to hit?
• To compensate, what is the point of Homing Attack when it's so slow and not that powerful?

She still continues to prove how ridiculous her punish game is, which combined with her amazing recovery more than compensates for her weak neutral. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• Flip Kick is unfairly powerful for its intangibility, and for how fast it is to start up and travel. Make it a bit weaker.
• To compensate, D-tilt and U-throw would get some quality-of-life buffs to make them no longer mediocre.

The character who deserves top tier the most, since she requires so much skill to play efficiently at top-level play. I personally don't like that she still has guaranteed kill confirms, as I'd rather she need to make a read to get the kill since racking up damage is so easy, but I guess they're fine. OPTIONAL CHANGES:

• Make Vanish not have as much intangibility and have a bit more landing lag, because it's nearly impossible for many characters to punish right now.
• Optionally, make U-air and Bouncing Fish slower but more powerful to make them more akin to U-smash and Vanish, so she truly has to get a read to land the kill at reasonable percents.
• To compensate, Burst Grenade really shouldn't send her into free fall, and D-throw could be a bit stronger to compensate for patch 1.1.5 basically destroying its combo potential.

Deserve nerfs (changes I list should happen and would overall nerf them, even if there are a couple of buffs):

Luma's dumb, and you all know it. But before we get there, let's start with solo-Rosalina's moves:

• ROSALINA: Gravitational Pull has too much range and lasts way too long to be a fair projectile nullifier, especially when she's solo and the move has even less end lag. (To see just how long it lasts, just take a look at the move on Kurogane Hammer.)
• ROSALINA: To somewhat compensate, U-tilt and F-air should get buffed, because they kinda suck right now.
• LUMA: Okay, high base knockback to combo into Rosalina's version of the move kinda makes sense. But then why would Luma deserve to have rage, especially since it can't take damage for Rosalina?
• LUMA: Also, for how small Luma is, why does it have so much range on all of its attacks? Speaking of which, why can it act before Rosalina can, and do different moves than she's doing?
• ROSALINA & LUMA: Luma Shot should charge faster so they can play the ranged juggling game more often and efficiently, to somewhat compensate for them being nerfed up close, and also to make them more exciting to watch.

It amazes me that after all the nerfs he got, he still has a fantastic moveset with only a few moves that aren't ridiculous in some way. He reminds me of Sheik, except he does way too much damage and kills too early to be okay.

• I don't understand why D-tilt's knockback was decreased in a patch, which only made his kill confirms even better than they already were. Increase its knockback so it can't combo into smash attacks at their kill percents, because he should have risky kill options for his amazing neutral, but this move alone defies that design. (You can argue Banana does the same, but it has more lag to take out, and opponents can use it as well, so it's not as ridiculous.)
• Can someone tell me why F-air and B-air deserve to autocancel in a SHFF (short hop fast fall)? They're nearly impossible to challenge or punish in any way because of this, especially F-air.
• I also don't understand why Monkey Flip's kick was given an extra hitbox at the end during one of the patches, as that also made it even more ridiculously good. Revert that buff, as it didn't need to happen.

The universal pocket character, with his only real disadvantage being recovery. His range, power, and frame data combined make for a character who is far too easy to play well. Here's what I would change:

• Is there any reason for him to be that fast in the air with how crazy his aerials are? I would decrease both limit and non-limit air speeds by about 10% so he can't constantly abuse his ridiculous aerials.
• U-air's problem wasn't its damage, as Nintendo seemed to think, but rather its frame data. The sourspot even existing is dumb and makes the move way too good against floaties, and the move autocanceling in a SHFF isn't okay, either.
• Both versions of Cross Slash do too much damage. Decrease their damage outputs by a good amount.
• To somewhat compensate, non-limit Blade Beam should be a bit less laggy, since it kinda sucks right now.

Clearly the best in the game, only really struggling with mediocre neutral and disadvantage states. The changes I list should hopefully make her truly the combo specialist she should be without making the rest of her way too good.

• "Her combos can be slow to start"? Then what's up with D-tilt, U-tilt, N-air, F-air, U-air, and Witch Twist having such low lag?
• And while we're at it, nerf her other aerials, too. Make B-air laggier and D-air not as powerful.
• Yes, I'm about to give her a buff to her combo game, but hear me out. The nerfs to her downward Afterburner Kick were a bit too severe, at least for the angle of the knockback. I want to raise its angle again, but also give it more end lag and make it not bounce as high. This would bring back many, but not all, of the old combos it allowed for, but make it not nearly as safe of a landing or escape move, making her a true combo specialist.
• And, of course, make Witch Time scale based on the strength of the attack she counters instead of times used.

 

[L9999]

^Top tier. My opinion:

Diddy has some holes in his gameplan but anyone can agree he has some busted stuff. Fair is too disjointed for its speed, it flat out walls certain characters.

What about Cloud hasn't been said a million times already? I think Nair, Dair, and Uair should all be nerfed.

Remove rage from Luma.

She never wins anything.

The other ones are alright.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

What about Cloud hasn't been said a million times already?

He's overrated.

 

[DJBor]

oh hey so suddenly I got notifications for this thread... probably making a new account soon but while I'm at it, here's how I'd nerf the top 4

• remove intangibility from Vanish (no character should have a completely infallible recovery)
  
• increase both needle storm's FAF to 60 frames (it's not a big nerf, but it makes it more easily punishable and weakens their edgeguarding)
  
• buff down smash again, also make grenade a good move (these two moves should become components of nerfed sheik's moveset)

• item toss startup and FAF increased by 4 frames (to be in line with toon link and mega man. seriously, this is an unfair advantage)
• down tilt can still be frame 4... but at least bring its KBG back into acceptable proportions, cause it's just too good
• forward air startup and FAF increased by 6 frames (back air is nowhere near as big of an offender as fair, get this thing outta here)
• monkey flip goes 3/4 of its current distance (not to brawl levels of short, but smash 4 monkey flip is way too long range)

• make the buster sword 80% of its current length (on every move) and adjust hitboxes accordingly (same cloud flair, much worse neutral)
  
• swap the rates of limit charge by damage (125 damage dealt or 250 damage taken)

• first witch twist startup and FAF increased by 6 frames, hitbox size reduced again (ding dong, the witch is dead? nah, just her OOS game)
• forward air IASA frames increased (seriously this move is too good and needs to not start combos so easily)
• bat within properties on dodges changed (it now affects the dodge itself, removing frame 1 combo breaks yet keeping the unique perk)

There's others I would like to see nerfed, but only very slightly and it's not worth going into too much detail on

For the below question, Sheik's needles are too safe, despite being a potential KO confirm. So I'd make Down Smash way better.

 

[L9999]

He's overrated.

You wish. His "bad" MUs are actually improving and he invalidates basically everyone in the cast.

oh hey so suddenly I got notifications for this thread... probably making a new account soon but while I'm at it, here's how I'd nerf the top 4

• remove intangibility from Vanish (no character should have a completely infallible recovery)
  
• increase both needle storm's FAF to 60 frames (it's not a big nerf, but it makes it more easily punishable and weakens their edgeguarding)
  
• buff down smash again, also make grenade a good move (these two moves should become components of nerfed sheik's moveset)

Why butcher Sheik any further? Her lack of 50/50 really took a toll on her. Sheik needs needles to KO confirm.

 

[Zerp]

My S Tier: (?)
About Bayonetta, I'm personally really divided on where to place her. Like, I think Bayonetta is the best character in theory and should be the best character given her toolkit, but the meta's seemingly telling me otherwise right now, Cloud, Diddy Kong, Rosalina and Sheik all look stronger than her in practice as of now.


Here's S Tier's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...jooJaZKH-Gg6YtWgHmwr6G-R8Fzt_0w/viewanalytics

And now that we're done with this round, it's break time again, so like always you're welcome to post anything balance related you want for the week. And by anything balance related, I do mean anything, want Ganondorf nerfs, Jiggypuff nerfs, Bayonetta buffs? Go right ahead!

 

[FamilyTeam]

Eh, I guess I forgot to post my opinion on the subject.
IMO, out of those characters, I'd order them like

In my honest opinion, I want no changes to any of them. Sheik is in too delicate a state, where she's one nerf away from Bottom Tier and one buff away from Top Tier.
If you ask me, all pre-patch Sheik needed was a weight reduction, quite a bit less range on needles and more endlag. Or, a nerf to her kill power.
Instead, we got pretty much both, and that really feels like it was a tad excessive.