The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[Deleted member]

A minor nerf to bthrow's KBG or angle would be fine. I also feel like dash attack connecting properly and making PK Flash not total garbage would be nice as well.

Voting for because he's my main. Hopefully none of the suggestions for him are stupid once we get to discussing him.

 

[vertime]

[Obligatory "really feeling it" joke]
I vote for

I know this isn't exactly relevant to discussion but @←/feel., why do you main Shulk? I understand he is a good character in the right hands (Who isn't, am I right?), I'm just curious as to why people main the more obscure, less used members of the roster and I certainly haven't ever gotten my head around Shulk.

Anyway, Ness.
God, I do love Ness. I honestly wouldn't change him at all. He's good with obvious drawbacks and has some really great combos outside of Triple Fair. I don't have an issue with his PK Fire, either. It's a move that sets up into a lot but a quick jump is all it takes. I find Lucas' PK Fire harder to deal with because it's offstage game kills super easy without putting Lucas in danger at all. I also really like Ness' Dair. The delay catches a lot of people's airdodge and results in a good spike. I'd maybe lower the landing lag but that's it really.

 

[Deleted member]

[Obligatory "really feeling it" joke]
I vote for

I know this isn't exactly relevant to discussion but @←/feel., why do you main Shulk? I understand he is a good character in the right hands (Who isn't, am I right?), I'm just curious as to why people main the more obscure, less used members of the roster and I certainly haven't ever gotten my head around Shulk.

Because Xenoblade is one of my favorite games and I love Shulk as a character, his playstyle flows very well to me in Smash despite his significant flaws.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

[Obligatory "really feeling it" joke]
I vote for

I know this isn't exactly relevant to discussion but @←/feel., why do you main Shulk? I understand he is a good character in the right hands (Who isn't, am I right?), I'm just curious as to why people main the more obscure, less used members of the roster and I certainly haven't ever gotten my head around Shulk.

Same reason why anyone even has a main in the first place.
They're fun to play as, we like the character, we've had past experience with the character &/or the game they we're in, they feel right for us to play or we just want to get better with them. Simple as that.

Anyway Ness, I think he's about right where he is in viability, he's got a great grab & punish game that leads into high damaging combos and reliable kill moves with setups but he's got a weak recovery & neutral.
However like everyone else in this thread, I think he can lose a little kill power from his Back-Throw in return for a better recovery that doesn't lose against Rosalina's Down-B or anyone that runs into him on PK2, as well as a slightly faster PK Flash. With those he should be find.

I vote for the character who just happened to be there

 

[Lord Dio]

I have a very large hatred for the Earthbound characters of smash, but I'm gonna put that aside.
B-throw should definitely be nerfed, even if a little bit, and I see too many ness kills comign about from countering or taking advantage of the PK Thunder recovery, that should definitely be fixed. Aside from that he's fine imo.

Shulk, since everyone else is doing so.

 

[vertime]

Because Xenoblade is one of my favorite games and I love Shulk as a character, his playstyle flows very well to me in Smash despite his significant flaws.

Alrighty, noted.

Same reason why anyone even has a main in the first place.
They're fun to play as, we like the character, we've had past experience with the character &/or the game they we're in, they feel right for us to play or we just want to get better with them. Simple as that.

It's always fun to find out.

 

[DJBor]

Just got back from labbing Shulk... he's so underrated! His "major flaws" are easy fixes, just to make the tools he almost has actually work. Can't wait to show off what I've found. I kind of want to add him to the pocket now instead of Ike.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I'm just curious as to why people main the more obscure, less used members of the roster.

You clearly have never been to a discord server I am in and it's not the shulk cord. Shulk mains are everyone, and they are ALWAYS feeling something. Wait, I just realized....

Feel, I'm really FEELing it. I see so Shulks secret identity was feel all along!



Ok but for real now, I'll vote shulk.

Ness is also fine as it is because of how atrocious his top tier MU spread is, sorta like brawl Dedede if I'm remembering brawl correctly.

 

[Deleted member]

Just got back from labbing Shulk... he's so underrated! His "major flaws" are easy fixes, just to make the tools he almost has actually work. Can't wait to show off what I've found. I kind of want to add him to the pocket now instead of Ike.

inb4 it's stuff the Shulk Discord has found eons ago

also, Shulk isn't underrated. He's either high part of low tier or bottom of mid. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Zerp]

I think Ness is perfectly balanced. Boring, I know.

SLIGHTLY nerf knockback of B-throw and PK Thunder 2, buff PK Flash, D-air, and Luma-killing moves

Here's Ness's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1SUEDdm9dbZdW2dqiJabuPJ6KjfxdWnom1Vk-pUCB6bQ/viewanalytics
Here's Shulk's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/Gq6dygMPMdVUhemP2

You can vote for any of these individuals who aren't feeling it...
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[vertime]

Shulk
Here's a good question, why do you keep sheathing your damn sword after every swing? Maybe you would have better frame data if you stopped putting the bloody thing away mid fight.
Seriously though, buff this dudes frame data and I'd be really feeling it.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk
Here's a good question, why do you keep sheathing your damn sword after every swing? Maybe you would have better frame data if you stopped putting the bloody thing away mid fight.
Seriously though, buff this dudes frame data and I'd be really feeling it.

Because he does that after finishing a battle in Xenoblade, and it sets him apart aesthetically from the other swordies who hold their sword in their idle stances. Also keep in mind Shulk in Smash 4 is not the one post-endgame, but I'm not spoiling anything.

I'll post a changelist for Shulk later.

 

[DJBor]

Here's what I got. Yeah, his frame data's slow, but that's to balance him having the longest sword. There are a significant amount of moves that could and should see improvement though, since currently they're pretty hard to land, but are very important to Shulk's playstyle. (It's only the ones that really struggle- tilts are actually good)

• Up air, down air- Hitbox 1 active frames 11-14, hitbox 2 active frames 18-21, FAF reduced (60>53), landing lag reduced (15/23>10/18)
• Up smash, forward smash- Hitbox 1 active frames 11-14, hitbox 2 active frames 18-21, FAF reduced (68>53) Funny enough, these two moves have identical frame data, except that up smash currently starts later and is weaker.
  
• Back Slash- Startup decreased (22>14), and because of this the hitbox matches the blade's full movement.

Hitbox size increases and accuracy fixes on all of the above attacks, as they all have trouble connecting. (Make SABDJCUS great again!)

• Neutral air- FAF decreased (71>51).
  
• Down smash- FAF decreased (83>63), active frames of each hitbox increased to 4.

I vote
@Feelicks Yeah, 6 less frames of startup is too much. I'll give it the 1.1.5 Greninja treatment, and drop it from 14 to 11. And you are right that down smash doesn't need to be faster, but come on, 83 frames of endlag?

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Obviously has some flaws that are keeping him in low mid tier. However, like Ganondorf, he doesn't need many changes to jump way up the tier list:

• Slightly decrease lag on every single one of his moves. ALL OF THEM. Seriously, why hasn't this crucial flaw been addressed yet?
• Decrease SDI multiplier of all multi hit moves, mostly so they can reliably frame trap opponents. Along that same line...
• Increase active frames on a lot of his moves, namely smashes and certain tilts and aerials. Why a glowing sword that stays out so long only has a few active frames baffles me.

Can we finally talk about now?

 

[Guido65]

One major thing I think needs fixed with shulk is some of his hitboxes not matching the animation. Up air and down air are the most notable of this as they clearly look like they should have a lingering hitbox but actually don't for some reason. So my suggestion would to be to give down air and up air a lingering hitbox along with making back air have a lingering hitbox as it also looks like it should have one but doesn't really. Other then that slight frame data buffs would be helpful for him but not too much of frame data buffs.

Voting for

 

[Deleted member]

Here's what I got. Yeah, his frame data's slow, but that's to balance him having the longest sword. There are a significant amount of moves that could and should see improvement though, since currently they're pretty hard to land, but are very important to Shulk's playstyle. (It's only the ones that really struggle- tilts are actually good)

• Up air, down air, Back Slash and all smash attacks have improved frame data and much better hitboxes. Man, these moves are so slow!
  
• Up air, down air- Hitbox 1 active frames 9-12, hitbox 2 active frames 16-19, FAF reduced (60<53), landing lag reduced (15/23>10/18)
• Up smash, forward smash- Hitbox 1 active frames 9-12, hitbox 2 active frames 16-19, FAF reduced (68>53)
• Down smash- Attack begins earlier (18>14), FAF decreased (83>63), active frames increased to 4 each
  
• Back Slash- Startup decreased (22>14), hitbox matches the blade's full movement.

All animations adjusted accordingly. Hitbox size increases on all of these buffed attacks, as they all have trouble connecting.

• Lastly, nair FAF decreased (71>51)

I vote

all of this is broken, what the hell

Do you REALLY want a down smash with that range to come out as fast as Roy's fsmash? And a frame 9 uair/dair? Seriously?

 

[vertime]

all of this is broken, what the hell

Do you REALLY want a down smash with that range to come out as fast as Roy's fsmash? And a frame 9 uair/dair? Seriously?

I agree with the guy's changes, with the exception of the down smash. I'd like to see a faster shulk or at least the Speed monado improve his frame data to this standard.

 

[vertime]

Because he does that after finishing a battle in Xenoblade

Keyphrase being "after a battle has finished."
Also, aesthetically, I find it more annoying that he keeps putting his sword away. "Yeah, I'm done here" after doing a bloody Dtilt is silly.

 

[Axel311]

Shulk is tough to balance, mainly because it'd be easy to break him if they made his frame data too good, because he already has incredible range. He shouldn't have super good frame data (neither should Cloud but that's an argument for another day...) He needs buffs but I think they should focus on making the monado arts better. They already buffed his frame data once, and I really don't want them to overbuff his frame data and turn him into another Cloud that will just run away and spam super ridiculously huge safe disjointed aerials.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk is tough to balance, mainly because it'd be easy to break him if they made his frame data too good, because he already has incredible range. He shouldn't have super good frame data (neither should Cloud but that's an argument for another day...) He needs buffs but I think they should focus on making the monado arts better. They already buffed his frame data once, and I really don't want them to overbuff his frame data and turn him into another Cloud that will just run away and spam super ridiculously huge safe disjointed aerials.

They only buffed his frame data once and it was on Back Slash. 9 frames of startup reduction is great, but the move is still crap. If anything the only Art that needs buffs is Smash Art.

Anyways, I guess I'll post my Shulk changelist.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p_IUto1hIzaP4OpqzwdO5Ls51TCXubVSFDT0Oq28LDw/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Lord Dio]

Okay, about Shulk:
Something I've always wondered is, why do a lot of shulk players try to KO with fair->fair->air slash?
Aside from that and frame data, I'm really feeling shulk.

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, about Shulk:
Something I've always wondered is, why do a lot of shulk players try to KO with fair->fair->air slash?
Aside from that and frame data, I'm really feeling shulk.

Forget that, why do some Shulks start out with Smash art?

 

[Zerp]

Give him a frame data art, simple fix. /s

Here's Shulk's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ktIG0b5y_X8-DivcteyeMFGluL53toWpQlpHRg5FTL0/viewanalytics
Here's Greninja's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/9dBt5OXo5PS8lOz53

You can vote for any of these individuals who aren't amphibians... well, that's at least what I think...
(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)

 

[DJBor]

is high tier. Why is nobody using him, he's like but balanced, less campy, and even more stylish! That's awesome!
(I'd do it, but I keep misinputting his recovery and screwing up in neutral.)
... Junior.

 

[Guido65]

Greninja is mostly fine but could use a few buffs:

Forward airs startup and faf reduced with increased duration: 16-17 55 ->10-14 41. Seriously this move is weaker then Mewtwos AND slower by 10 frames and a worse faf by 17 frames.The move is way too laggy and its not even particularly strong to justify it. Even,,and have faster forward airs(that are also much more powerful to boot).

Nair startup and faf reduced 12 65->7 45. Gives him at least a somewhat fast oos

These 2 buffs would immensely help with his oos game but its still pretty mediocre because his poor traction means he'll normally slide too far to punish most moves oos.

 

[L9999]

is high tier. Why is nobody using him, he's like but balanced, less campy, and even more stylish! That's awesome!
(I'd do it, but I keep misinputting his recovery and screwing up in neutral.)
... Junior.

Greninja is totally a camp2win character. He can throw shurikens, run away with his top notch mobility, rinse and repeat. Footstool combos are for style.

Greninja is mostly fine but could use a few buffs:

Forward airs startup and far reduced with increased duration: 16-17 55 ->10-14 41. Seriously this move is weaker then Mewtwos AND slower by 10 frames and a worse faf by 17 frames.The move is way too laggy and its not even particularly strong to justify it. Even,,and have faster forward airs(that are also much more powerful to boot).

Nair startup and faf reduced 12 65->7 45. Gives him at least a somewhat fast oos

These 2 buffs would immensely help with his oos game but its still pretty mediocre because his poor traction means he'll normally slide too far to punish most moves oos.

Mewtwo's Fair is a whole other story, what does he have to do with Greninja?

 

[Guido65]

Mewtwo's Fair is a whole other story, what does he have to do with Greninja?

The point I was trying to make is greninjas fair is heavily imbalanced in a speed/power ratio. Its really slow and not that strong.

 

[DJBor]

You're forgetting its range. It's a full-fledged sword attack on a ninja-style fighter, kind of a big deal. Of course it's slow to start. ANd they already buffed it once, it doesn't need to be even better.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

is actually a really solid character with one of the best theories out there. Not only that, but he has tons of representation and great results, obviously with iStudying but also with lots of other players all around the globe getting top 8 results with him consistently, making him high tier on my tier list. I don't think he needs any more changes, but if I were to buff him just a little bit more (because I have a bit of bias and want to fix his few remaining problems), this is what I would do:

• Decrease end lag of N-air (FAF 65 --> 60). With how fast he falls and how the angle is primarily vertical, accidentally using this move offstage is almost guaranteed death with little reward, so this would at least mitigate the guaranteed death part.
• Make his U-air consistently connect and semi-spike like Dedede's. It would be an amazing move, except that opponents can fall out the top of the move whether you want to hit the final hit or semi-spike them, and I think that's kinda busted.

And no, the attack of Substitute doesn't need to be faster. I used to think that, but the move is definitely good enough as is. If you land the attack, you can do so much with it: You can aim it down offstage for an early spike kill and still recover, you can aim it diagonally up at mid percents to combo into falling U-air and start an extensive combo, or you can aim it up at high percents either to kill or to combo into U-air for the kill. And even if your opponent has time to avoid the attack, you can aim yourself another direction, travel far, and avoid getting punished. Making the attack faster would make Substitute broken, honestly.


Voting for my other Brawl waifu, .

 

[vertime]

I can't form a proper opinion on Greninja. He's just such a weird character that doesn't seem to have a whole lot. I can properly recall around 3 or 4 things that's fairly distinct.

For that reason, I hold no input but I vote for
I don't see much discussion on the Wind-Waking Warrior.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I don't think Greninja is high tier like some others have been saying(frankly he's not even the 3rd best Pokemon imo) but I just feel like his Nair is off. I know it's a pretty good move in his moveset(correct me if I'm wrong) but I think increasing his startup on that move would provide with better Oos options. Another thing I wanna touch on is his up air. If I recall correctly, Greninja had s 50-50 revolving his up air(again correct me if I'm wrong). The thing doesn't even hit the opponent with the final hit half the time! Fix those hits please!


I don't see Greninja future being a footstool character, but the way dark aura played the character vs SGK just recently. Patient and spacey play is where I see Greninjas future because while footstools are flashy, I believe they may become less effective in the future and can be a tad bit risky at times

Now, why has this character not been voted? He's been nerfed numerous times to his offensive options yet is still considered a top 5, and even the best by some, character in the game. I honestly want to see all the bad nerfs people would give to his defensive options that are so prominent, so I'm voting for my boi - wait I can't vote for alakazam? Bbut his offensive options were nerfed in gen 2! Sigh fine, I'll go with my other boy who got nerfed, -wait you mean I can't vote for people not in the game besides some Mew thing? Sigh, I guess I'll vote for a character that has gotten nerfed multiple times but is still one of the best chars in the game, but I still feel like counterplay is at a low.

 

[Zerp]

I think Greninja shouldn't be changed at all, he's perfect as is, I'd say he's actually a bit underused for how good he is honestly, mobility is a veeerrrryyyyyy valuable thing to have and he has it in spades.

Here's Greninja's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Me9QpVc1DIv09bzM_YpdaWlzhWol3lsv6k35rvzOKJk/viewanalytics
Here's Sonic's poll: https://goo.gl/forms/WCAYwQxfk71eI56r2
You can vote for any of these individuals who probably all have Hedgehog OCs of them by now.

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)
I vote for .

Also, everything schedule wise should be normal from now on since I got back from vacation, which means you all now may reserve the right to send me angry PMs whenever I'm late.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

*Grabs Popcorn in preparation for the unnecessary sonic changes* (by that I mean nerfing something that does not need to be nerfed)

 

[Axel311]

Look, sonic is a PITA to fight. Does he need a nerf? Maybe. He's probably top 5. Certainly top 10. Depends on your design philosophy.

Power aside, the main issue is the character needs more incentives to approach. Spindash being invincible, having the best in game run speed and up B being such a safe escape option on shield make him stupid good at camping. As we all know, he can just repeat the same thing over and over and over.

I honestly want to just redesign the movement pathing of spindash entirely. But realistically? I don't see how you can really fix sonic without redesigning his moveset. Making spindash lose some invicibility frames would be a fair start.

 

[DJBor]

SAWNIC HEE-ROOOOOWS
I put Sonic 6th but it's pretty much just for the spring combos and safety of spindash.
So here's my surprisingly underwhelming nerf:

• Remove all armor on spindashes
  
• Spring FAF increased (19>35)

's my boy, not

 

[vertime]

Honestly, I like Sonic the way he is. He's never bothered me at all.
I do like DJBor's suggestion however:

Remove all armor on spindashes

Other than that, I'd leave Sonic alone.

Voting for the character I wanted to play the most only to be massively underwhelmed:
Ludwig everyday, my man.

 

[L9999]

Take away invincibity in Spin Dash and Spring Jump too. There you go, Sanic id tolerable.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

As others have said, removing the super armor of Spin Dash would make perfectly balanced. It would still be amazing given its high speed and the ability to cancel it, but it would give more characters a chance to challenge his neutral game, specifically projectile users.


Voting for , the best Larry since Larry the Cucumber.

 

[Zerp]

Nerf spindash, buff the games.

Here's Sanic's results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1gYBWtN-I4m1wjeVyE1YJOEW2Z8QXcnRyCcbN2rdPxaA/viewanalytics
Here's Bowser Jr.'s poll: https://goo.gl/forms/GBdyKiTDtyHHcBO52

You can vote for any of these individuals who agree that Morton is the best Koopa.

(Voting for Mew will result in a free day)
I vote for the electric rat.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

has gotten several buffs, but even with Jade's huge upset at CEO, he still doesn't have much good about him, making him low tier.

• Decrease end lag of jab 1 and 2, and make the multi-jab harder to escape.
• Decrease startup of F-tilt for a better get-off-me tool, and decrease end lag of D-tilt for a better combo starter.
• Why was D-smash not buffed when F- and U-smash were? It was easily the worst of the three, and it deserves the reduced end lag more than his other smashes do.
• (optional) Greatly decrease knockback of the landing hit of D-air so it can combo at higher percents akin to Fox's.
• Make Clown Cannon not garbage. Why it's so laggy when it travels so slowly and doesn't hit that hard baffles me.
• (optional) Decrease end lag of Mechakoopa. It's almost a great holdable projectile, except that it's the slowest of its kind.

Voting for the King of the Koo-Pahs, .