• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
5,602
Location
Maryland
NNID
VGBC_GimR
To me a neutral stage is where character vs. character interaction is the least interfered with. This is why FD is such a good pick. It's not about who does well on the stage over other characters. If a character does bad on a stage like fd then the character is bad, not the stage
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
What people really need to remember is that this ruleset can change very quickly if there are any real problems. Make no mistake, Pictochat WILL be re-discussed very quickly. Then if that stage is removed, THEN we can move onto more controversial subjects, such as getting rid of one of the two CPs that's been in nearly every stage list ruleset since 2008, or the removing of a starter into CP that's been a standard starter since Brawl release.
I am very glad to hear that change will come at an adequate pace and I would like to make a suggestion for just that issue you mentioned about Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar both being legal.

As it stands in a ruleset with both Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar legal, neither stage in and of themselves is broken. However if only 1 stage ban is allocateed to the players then on counterpick, Metaknight you to pick your poison and play on a counterpick in all fairness that is too powerful.

However instead of banning Rainbow Cruise, because Brinstar exists, or banning Brinstar because Rainbow Cruise exists, add another stage ban to the ruleset. With two stage bans players are able circumvent the Metaknight ultimatum while still allowing both stages to be legal.

This results in counterpicks across to board being weaker, causing every match to be closer to even due to the stage having less influence on the match.
 

Yung Mei

Where all da hot anime moms at
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
5,341
>all infinites allowed


Intentional trolling aimed at DK's detected
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800
Dang Will, Rich Brown got you gooooood.

edit: awww nvm.. I forgot BBR isn't allowed to talk with BBR-RC.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,165
Location
Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
I am very glad to hear that change will come at an adequate pace and I would like to make a suggestion for just that issue you mentioned about Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar both being legal.

As it stands in a ruleset with both Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar legal, neither stage in and of themselves is broken. However if only 1 stage ban is allocateed to the players then on counterpick, Metaknight you to pick your poison and play on a counterpick in all fairness that is too powerful.

However instead of banning Rainbow Cruise, because Brinstar exists, or banning Brinstar because Rainbow Cruise exists, add another stage ban to the ruleset. With two stage bans players are able circumvent the Metaknight ultimatum while still allowing both stages to be legal.

This results in counterpicks across to board being weaker, causing every match to be closer to even due to the stage having less influence on the match.

Except then you don't get tournaments like MLG dallas where Gnes beat top MK's on Brinstar/Norfair/RC etc. Just because a character is really good on a stage doesn't mean he's broken on it. I beat Tyrant in tournament on rainbow cruise which was his counterpick. This stuff happens often enough and you don't see mk's with perfect records on those stages.
 

Bizkit047

Smash Lord
Joined
May 16, 2008
Messages
1,632
I am very glad to hear that change will come at an adequate pace and I would like to make a suggestion for just that issue you mentioned about Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar both being legal.

As it stands in a ruleset with both Rainbow Cruise, and Brinstar legal, neither stage in and of themselves is broken. However if only 1 stage ban is allocateed to the players then on counterpick, Metaknight you to pick your poison and play on a counterpick in all fairness that is too powerful.

However instead of banning Rainbow Cruise, because Brinstar exists, or banning Brinstar because Rainbow Cruise exists, add another stage ban to the ruleset. With two stage bans players are able circumvent the Metaknight ultimatum while still allowing both stages to be legal.

This results in counterpicks across to board being weaker, causing every match to be closer to even due to the stage having less influence on the match.
You're not the first person to bring up the two stage ban idea. The problem is that it actually nerfs characters while you're trying to nerf MK's counterpick selection. How is this? Let's take characters who have their best two stages as FD and SV. What if the MK user bans FD & SV, and then opponent bans RC & Brinstar. The MK will still have Delfino, and the opponent will be screwed out of his best two CPs. Such characters are usually Diddy, Ice Climbers, and Falco. So while trying to avoid Brinstar & RC by adding a double ban, you're also nerfing yourself from your likely own CPs. There are other situations than just FD/SV. Don't forget that MK can generally handle any stage just fine.

Let's not forget that the MK would have no problem striking FD & SV game 1 either. It just seems like it would make more sense to just scrap one of the two stages in the long run...or another solution that's obvious but I don't want to get into.
 

Sage JoWii

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,377
Location
Austin, TX
NNID
G0J0J0
To me a neutral stage is where character vs. character interaction is the least interfered with. This is why FD is such a good pick. It's not about who does well on the stage over other characters. If a character does bad on a stage like fd then the character is bad, not the stage
I'ma quote this guy in order to subscribe via post, but I'd like to comment that this makes a lot of sense.

Thanks GIMR for putting it in perspective.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I really like this ruleset, and think the specific LGL for Meta Knight is a great idea.

However, all infinites being legal? I think that really needs to be reconsidered...
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
Except then you don't get tournaments like MLG dallas where Gnes beat top MK's on Brinstar/Norfair/RC etc. Just because a character is really good on a stage doesn't mean he's broken on it. I beat Tyrant in tournament on rainbow cruise which was his counterpick. This stuff happens often enough and you don't see mk's with perfect records on those stages.
I am not sayings its impossible by any means but I personally feel the advantage Metaknight gains on the counter is too large. I know thats entirely opinion based but its just my two cents.

You're not the first person to bring up the two stage ban idea. The problem is that it actually nerfs characters while you're trying to nerf MK's counterpick selection. How is this? Let's take characters who have their best two stages as FD and SV. What if the MK user bans FD & SV, and then opponent bans RC & Brinstar. The MK will still have Delfino, and the opponent will be screwed out of his best two CPs. Such characters are usually Diddy, Ice Climbers, and Falco. So while trying to avoid Brinstar & RC by adding a double ban, you're also nerfing yourself from your likely own CPs. There are other situations than just FD/SV. Don't forget that MK can generally handle any stage just fine.

Let's not forget that the MK would have no problem striking FD & SV game 1 either. It just seems like it would make more sense to just scrap one of the two stages in the long run...or another solution that's obvious but I don't want to get into.
Diddy kong, Falco, and Ice Climber's counter picks are all much closer together in advantage given. For all three Final destination, Smashville, and Battle field all give roughly the same advantage (Final Destination giving a hair more).

The difference between counter picking to Battlefield instead of Smashville is far less than the difference between counterpicking to Delfino instead of Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar.

In Falco's case with two stage bans and Jungle japes legal, he maintains the same strength he has now on the counterpick but metaknight gets weaker.
 

sunshade

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
863
They changed the wording on the stalling rule not to exclude running away?
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
since when are people whining so much about infinites? I can't remember they've been officially banned ever.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
2,992
Location
Berlin
since when are people whining so much about infinites? I can't remember they've been officially banned ever.
Before that, tourneys with infinites banned could still be stickied. Now they can't.

But yeah. Banning Infinite CGs is stupid.
 

rPSIvysaur

[ɑɹsaɪ]
Joined
Jun 7, 2009
Messages
16,415
The only problem I have with legalizing infinites is that it's hypocritical to have them AND a specific LGL rule for MK.
This is my thoughts exactly.

You're catering to the players by removing a more extreme aspect of the Meta Knight match-up by limiting his ledge grabs even further, but you decide that Donkey Kong and the infinited crew have to deal with match-ups that are just as game breaking, if not more? You're creating a double-standard which should be addressed. I hardly see how banning said infinites is negative to the community at all. It encourages character diversity at tournaments and attracts more players since they can feel more confident about their character choices.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,959
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Slippi.gg
KORO#668
All infinites allowed? The King D3 small-step, the grab release infinites, the other ones not including the Ice Climbers: You guys are actually serious with this?

Okay, this rule might be ok, let's check the stage list to make sure the stages are fine...

Pictochat: Even though I like this stage, seriously, watch my Pictochat series, this stage isn't competitive.You find all of the hazards to be avoidable? Just wait for someone to grab release someone or throw someone into the 30 damage spikes or to a kill, hey wait a minute it has happened already in 30 tournaments such as Ally's Marth incredibly recently throw into the mine cart to WIN a massive tournament? To anyone wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAydvCDSWk#t=17m36s

Rainbow Cruise: See below

Brinstar: See below

All of the stages allowed with just ONE ban? You guys are serious with this?
Are you trying to make it so 1/4 of the cast is viable? Say goodbye to the DK mains which previous to this ruleset were actually somewhat good in tournament. Say goodbye to whatever is left of Samus, Bowser, Luigi, and Mario mains as well.

To Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Brinstar with 1 ban. Are you guys trying to make it so Metaknight wins enough tournaments to become bannable?
 

Spelt

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
11,843
Infinites ... legal?
Give me a minute, recovering from shock...
 

*Tyson*

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 27, 2009
Messages
693
Location
Fourside, Eagleland
Also, there is a big difference in the Ice Climbers infinite. First of all you have to have Popo and Nana together. So you can knock them away from each other, as well as their grab range is complete garbage.

Sure the squirtle chain grab may move you a tiny little bit, but you still take 120+percent all the way across smashville into down throw.

I have no idea why you would want to allow infinites or grabs that = 100+ percent to death anyway. It makes no sense at all. It is highly anti competitive
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
*sits in the back, laughing at all of the conservative stage list people crying over the fact that they can't ban both Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar*

Why did you add PS2 to the list of good MK stages KoRo? He's not very good there: doesn't have the mobility to take advantage of the wind stages as long as you aren't RIGHT above him, and he can't get down quickly. It's my default CP option against MK. Nor do any of the other stages really give him an advantage, except maybe electric stage making gimping easier.
 

Yikarur

Smash Master
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
4,595
Location
Germany
I still don't get what people have to complain about PS2.
and PS2 + other counterpicks with "do you want MK abnned?" in one sentence doesn't make sense too.
it's not like that stage is even partwise an amazing MK cp lol
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
universal lgl is necessary, it destroys match-ups and makes the game unplayable in some kind...
herp derp!

I really like this ruleset, and think the specific LGL for Meta Knight is a great idea.

However, all infinites being legal? I think that really needs to be reconsidered...
Scrub scrub scrub scrub the stairs of Hyrule.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Pictochat: Even though I like this stage, seriously, watch my Pictochat series, this stage isn't competitive.You find all of the hazards to be avoidable? Just wait for someone to grab release someone or throw someone into the 30 damage spikes or to a kill, hey wait a minute it has happened already in 30 tournaments such as Ally's Marth incredibly recently throw into the mine cart to WIN a massive tournament? To anyone wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAydvCDSWk#t=17m36s
Terrible example <_<

for the 2 times in that match

1st, the end where razer was uthrown into the cart
was the 126% lead not enough for you? marth threw razer. the transformation was already up so he knew it was coming, and he just air dodged right from the ground to get grabbed again. he could have done ANYTHING else to not get hit by it.
2nd part in the match, earlier with the missiles. lol ally just upB'd right into it, like 10000% his fault, then air dodged into the second one instead of jumping over it.

iv seen some examples of lame play on this stage, but the match you linked us to does not do justice for wanting it gone
 

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
Ness/Lucas technically wouldn't have been saved by the infinite rule in the first place anyways. The Marth regrab on them, and Squirtle/Charizard regrab on Ness are not infinites, as the grabber must move. The DK infinite hurts, but ruling against that had enforceability issues in the first place.

Dedede's infinite being legal (also enforceability issues with banning it) really only severely affects DK, Wolf, and I guess Dedede dittos. For the others, it is not infinite until past 100% with reasonably human mashing.
Yeah this is pretty right. It's not like Ness and Lucas mains shouldn't be used to this by now anyway. If we (the EB kids in general) can deal with others doing it, then we can deal with this anyway. Plus the matchup is terrible against DDD anyway so I don't think it really makes that huge of a difference for those two.

As for other characters, I'm not an expert so I wouldn't know.

@Pokemon Stadium 2 talk: Y'know I really want to ask, what characters do really well on this stage? Yoshi (eggs work well on all transformations)? MK? Just curious really.
 

MK26

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
4,450
Location
http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
(EDIT: this also applied to Chibo's response I guess)

Pictochat: Even though I like this stage, seriously, watch my Pictochat series, this stage isn't competitive.You find all of the hazards to be avoidable? Just wait for someone to grab release someone or throw someone into the 30 damage spikes or to a kill, hey wait a minute it has happened already in 30 tournaments such as Ally's Marth incredibly recently throw into the mine cart to WIN a massive tournament? To anyone wondering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epAydvCDSWk#t=17m36s
Legitimate uses of Picto's hazards in this matchup:

15:23 - piranha is chilling there and Razer rolls right into a grab-uthrow-bonus damage. Certainly preventable.

16:59 - this one is borderline...Ally did make the mistake of up-b'ing into the missile, but he didnt really have many options in the situation. 45%+stock that probably was preventable, but really had no business taking place.

Stupid Picto bull:

14:29 - Ally misses a pivot grab that couldve led to something, but mightve led to nothing. One second later, Razer begins a nair and the spikes immediately show up. Without any possible way of predicting or preventing this, Ally gets a free extra 20%, Razer's nade blows up, and Ally punishes for the stock. Good job on Ally's part for recognizing his options, but a fair amount of dumb luck factored into getting that kill.

15:33 - Razer blows up his C4 to land, but note that Ally wouldve jumped into the flame regardless of whether or not the C4 hit him. In total it's only about 5% extra damage, but Ally loses every shred of momentum he had thanks to the RNG.

17:18 - basically the stage going trolololol at Ally's attempt to chase...and yes, the damage that the stage prevents from happening is just as important as the damage it causes. No prediction/prevention possible. The transformation is stalled out and the situation goes back to neutral.

17:37 - initially I was going to disagree wth you, but looking back at the video, this is in fact another case of Picto randomly screwing a player over. An interesting mindgame scenario turns into the game for Ally; as the cart started getting drawn in after the first grab, Razer had no chance at prediction, and if your only options are 'airdodge into/attack the guy planning on shieldgrabbing once you do' and 'jump into the path of the rapidly approaching deadly hazard', there really isn't much of a choice in the end.

===

In most cases randomness can be handled, but Picto's particular brand of unpredictable and unpreventable (one by itself is usually ok) at the same time is, imo, way too much for competitive play. I'm not one to say that the match wouldve ended similarly on a different stage, but it's pretty safe to say that the route taken to get to the finish would certainly require much less dodging around and stepping in bull****.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
I love

that pictochat

is still legal

this many years into the game

People are still high as hell.
 

Espy Rose

Dumb horse.
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
30,577
Location
Texas
NNID
EspyRose
The only problem I have with legalizing infinites is that it's hypocritical to have them AND a specific LGL rule for MK.
This is one of the main reasons why I disapprove of the LGL in this ruleset.

Otherwise, it's a-okay with me.
Oh, and another question:

Why is there a rule against the no-tripping code?
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
inb4BPC

Here's my thoughts:

Sudden Death Ruling is perfect.
Infinites being legal is the correct choice. (We ALL deal with it with ICs, suck it up or pick a viable character)
I still dislike the LGL, but I see the logic behind the choice.

Things you did wrong:

5 starters. Really? I thought we were past this ****.
FD is a starter. COME ON NOW. With 7 or 9, that'd be acceptable. But 5? Do we REALLY have to go through the millions of reasons that this is an awful idea?

Picto is legal, Japes and Norfair aren't. -_-

Drop the double standard please. Tolerating near-gamebreaking randomness just to have somewhere to CP MK to is getting silly.

Not going to ever use the stagelist. Everything else is fine.
 

KoRoBeNiKi

Smash Hero
Writing Team
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
5,959
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Slippi.gg
KORO#668
^^^^To raziek and everyone arguing against any people who are anti-infinite. No one of us are saying that the Ice Climber infinite shouldn't be legal. It doesn't matter in this case as if you are facing a good Ice Climbers, once you get grabbed you die regardless of whether it is an infinite or not. We are only arguing about the infinite that realistically affect the game, namely the King D3 short step (as there are competitive DK's in the world who only main DK if no one has realized this.)

iv seen some examples of lame play on this stage, but the match you linked us to does not do justice for wanting it gone
Ok, here's another example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcZwc8g5KcU&feature=player_embedded

Prove that :39 and :47 or even the Squirtle/Snake clip to an extent that any of these are fair to the player who got into the situation and that the other player completely predicted what was going on. The 2nd player used this advantage gained by nothing.
 

z00ted

The Assault of Laughter ﷼
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
10,800

Yink

The Robo-PSIentist
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
7,419
Location
Osaka, Japan
NNID
SSBYink
Why should the Ice Climbers be any different?

EDIT: Slowest typer ever.
 

Javon89

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
666
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
@koro: so the ics infinites get special treatment?
Well it does have an execution barrier compared to all the other chaingrabs

On the ruleset:I like this rule set but my only small nitpick is FD. I think Diddy Kong is really strong on there with his banana game(nice and flat with no platforms) and sometimes you can get stuck under the ledge of the stage and die (hardly an argument at all)

I know this won't change anything but I'm just putting in my 2 cents
 
Top Bottom