The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[T-block]

^1-2-2-1 refers to the players striking. Player 1 strikes first, then Player 2, then Player 2 again, then Player 1.

 

[z00ted]

Illimatic, I usually like reading your post because you bring some sense into threads but I'm going to have to disagree about the infinite thing.

It's the same case as ICs they have infinites but they are legal so why ban other characters infinites?

The infinites just make it a bad MU, like Shieks ftilt lock on Fox or Pika's CG. Just learn a secondary or learn to avoid it. Same concept imo

Do you realize... that they have just completely removed one maybe even two characters from this game? You thought Donkey Kong had a chance before?

Will is going to be steamed lool.

 

[Chuee]

Oh, ok I thought it was referring to the amount of stages striking.
Thanks

 

[Conviction]

Depends on who you are.

There are quite a few characters that can control themselves in the air pretty well.



Some characters might be screwed, but for the most part the cast can force themselves to the ground if they are in that situation.

Sounds like a strong CP. What's wrong with that? (I'm not disagreeing with the person I quoted)

EDIT: @Ill: Theoretically shouldn't characters with stronger counter traits to counter other characters remove them from play? I'm still on fench about it I'm just trying to see it from both sides.

 

[T-block]

Do you realize... that they have just completely removed a character from this game? You thought Donkey Kong had a chance before?

There isn't even a rule on 300+% release. I could CG Donkey Kong all day.

"Removed a character"? Really?

DK is still more viable than Ganondorf. This makes it very difficult for DK players to stay DK the entire set... game 1 is risky with double blind (although unless you are going up against an actual Dedede main, I doubt anyone would choose Dedede first round just on the off-chance you choose DK, even if you are an established DK main), and it's probably not viable to go DK on your opponent's CP. On your CP it's still fine though.

Not requiring them to end at 300% is something I'm wondering about though...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I really have no issues with the ruleset. The only problem I have is that people finally have a reason to say that we finally endorse a ledgegrab limit

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I'm not a fan of it being a starter either but I'm more so saying that banning it seems silly when you considering Brinstar is far worse than it when it comes to strong CPs.

 

[z00ted]

"Removed a character"? Really?

DK is still more viable than Ganondorf. This makes it very difficult for DK players to stay DK the entire set... game 1 is risky with double blind (although unless you are going up against an actual Dedede main, I doubt anyone would choose Dedede first round just on the off-chance you choose DK, even if you are an established DK main), and it's probably not viable to go DK on your opponent's CP. On your CP it's still fine though.

Not requiring them to end at 300% is something I'm wondering about though...

Never mind I misread the ruleset - you are forced to end at 300%.

 

[Chuee]

Not requiring them to end at 300% is something I'm wondering about though...

That isn't listed? inb4infinitestalling
edit:
nvm it is

 

[T-block]

Sounds like a strong CP. What's wrong with that? (I'm not disagreeing with the person I quoted)

EDIT: @Ill: Theoretically shouldn't characters with stronger counter traits to counter other characters remove them from play? I'm still on fench about it I'm just trying to see it from both sides.

It's actually not that strong of a CP for most characters. Even if transformations tend to favour one character or character-type, they are temporary and appear at most twice in a match. Most characters don't gain a strong enough advantage to warrant CP'ing for thirty seconds of one transformation.

With regard to the Flying transformation in particular, it is easy to minimize combat in most matchups, even if your character's mobility is limited compared to your opopnent's.

My bad on the 300% rule... I thought I did read it in there haha.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah I'm not a fan of it being a starter either but I'm more so saying that banning it seems silly when you considering Brinstar is far worse than it when it comes to strong CPs.

....wait....it's a starter...

I'm opening up a new and re-reading this thing...lol I thought it was a CP

EDIT: @T-Block: True, I just would imagine it being a CP because some characters would fair better with more transformations than others.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I mean some people want it to be a starter, not that it is, woops.

I think it should be CP as well.

 

[z00ted]

I guess we're just going to have to test the new ruleset.

I really like all of it, I just don't feel as though there was a need to allow all infinites in the game (although I could see why).

 

[Conviction]

Agreed on the testing part and yeah idk why or how PS2 would be a starter. Thanks for clarification though Ryu. I like the new ruleset too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The "brawl era" people have lost sight(or maybe never had it) of what a Neutral/Counter Pick stage is. FD was perfectly fine in melee and will always been fine in Brawl.

The "melee" era people made the error of labeling things as neutral when they really weren't, get off the high horse dude, its sinking in quicksand.

 

[Flayl]

They should never have been called neutrals in the first place. Just starters.

 

[T-block]

@T-Block: True, I just would imagine it being a CP because some characters would fair better with more transformations than others.

Yeah, that's an understandable reaction, but it turns out to not really be the case. Yoshi/Lucas/Ness tend to use all transformations well, but other than that, the other characters either don't benefit all that much (Ice/Electric/Flying enable some neat stuff, but it's very rarely a significant advantage so much as it is opening up new options, which are given to your opponent as well) or only really benefit from one or two of them.

I guess we're just going to have to test the new ruleset.

I really like all of it, I just don't feel as though there was a need to allow all infinites in the game (although I could see why).

I think one of the major problems with banning infinites, apart from philosophical stances, is enforceability, and that alone is a pretty good reason to not ban them.

 

[sunshade]

I am happy with this ruleset for the most part, I feel its a very good compromise for both sides. I won't make any major requests in changes (such as full legal stage list striking, or stages like norfair, onett, or distantplanet to be legal) but I do have a few suggestion/requests (however you want to look at it).

In terms of stages, I will only make request for Jungle Japes being legal. The stage provides less advantage to even its most powerful user (Falco) than either Rainbow cruise, or Brinstar provide to Metaknight.

Claims about "water camping" on this stage are frequently unfounded, often untested, and in my experience/testing legitimately wrong. Claims are most commonly made about Donkey kong, and on occasion peach, however there is no video evidence it is possible to preform this effectively in a match, and in theory the tactic is both unsafe, and beatable.

The clap trap runs on a timer and as a result is far more adaptable into strategy than anything picto chat does. It comes roughly every 10 seconds (supposedly it is actually 9.5 seconds or something just shy of 10 but you get the idea), and where it strikes is set. Getting killed by the stage is either the product of the player not being skilled enough and making a mistake, or being outplayed by his opponent.

 

[T-block]

The 300% rule is in there, but only as a brief mention under making the game unplayable.

The Klap Trap interval is actually something like three or four frames over ten seconds.

 

[sunshade]

Oh, sorry my bad then. Thanks for the correction.

If that is the case then my only suggestion, is add Jungle Japes.

 

[z00ted]

I think one of the major problems with banning infinites, apart from philosophical stances, is enforceability, and that alone is a pretty good reason to not ban them.

Then throw in the probability that some of the members of the BBR-RC may not even enforce these rules at their very own locals or even regionals/nationals due to the infinite and you are only allowed in the group or a sticky for your national if you abide by the "Unified Ruleset".

Let's see what happens.

@sunshade I made the same mistake at first too xD

 

[Flayl]

The only problem I have with legalizing infinites is that it's hypocritical to have them AND a specific LGL rule for MK.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I don't agree with other characters having an LGL by the way.
Tell me why Sonic grabbing the ledge 50 times is broken, or Mario, or Ness, Lucas, DK etc etc.
Otherwise its decent. I like it.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah, that's an understandable reaction, but it turns out to not really be the case. Yoshi/Lucas/Ness tend to use all transformations well, but other than that, the other characters either don't benefit all that much (Ice/Electric/Flying enable some neat stuff, but it's very rarely a significant advantage so much as it is opening up new options, which are given to your opponent as well) or only really benefit from one or two of them.

Well I won't complain about it, it's a CP and I like it like that

]



In terms of stages, I will only make request for Jungle Japes being legal. The stage provides less advantage to even its most powerful user (Falco) than either Rainbow cruise, or Brinstar provide to Metaknight.

Claims about "water camping" on this stage are frequently unfounded, often untested, and in my experience/testing legitimately wrong. Claims are most commonly made about Donkey kong, and on occasion peach, however there is no video evidence it is possible to preform this effectively in a match, and in theory the tactic is both unsafe, and beatable.

The clap trap runs on a timer and as a result is far more adaptable into strategy than anything picto chat does. It comes roughly every 10 seconds (supposedly it is actually 9.5 seconds or something just shy of 10 but you get the idea), and where it strikes is set. Getting killed by the stage is either the product of the player not being skilled enough and making a mistake, or being outplayed by his opponent.

I would also like to see JJs make a comeback if possible.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am very sure the lack of a 300% rule is an oversight.

 

[Flayl]

300% is too much by the way, Dedede can kill DK much earlier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

FAIL 1: Firstly, no one other than MK should have a ledge-grab limit, as no one else has broken ledge-camping.

FAIL 2: Five starters including Final Destination, despite FD being as unbalanced as Rainbow Ride.

FAIL 3: Pictochat is legal. This stage rewards players randomly and the randomness is unavoidable at almost all times.

FAIL 4: One stage ban with Brinstar and Rainbow Ride legal.

 

[Xyro77]

I don't agree with other characters having an LGL by the way.
Tell me why Sonic grabbing the ledge 50 times is broken, or Mario, or Ness, Lucas, DK etc etc.
Otherwise its decent. I like it.

i agree with this

 

[sunshade]

I agree with your anti-FD-starter sentiment grim but I feel that arguing to replace it is a poorer choice than arguing to add 2 additional stages (my preference being PS1 and Castle siege) to the starter list.

Like alpha zealot said, for better or worse the vast majority of players are used to seeing Final Destination on the starter list. Seeing the list grow a bit while still maintaining its normality for the most part will make it easier for players to adapt.

 

[Alphicans]

The "brawl era" people have lost sight(or maybe never had it) of what a Neutral/Counter Pick stage is. FD was perfectly fine in melee and will always been fine in Brawl.

I honestly thought we were all passed comparing to what the melee ruleset uses and what the brawl ruleset uses. They are different games, with different/more characters, I don't see any comparison. This is not a good point at all.

 

[Browny]

Lol this drama

Bawwww fd is a starter D:
Strike it then ban it. GG.

Of course to the same people who complain about that, theres probably some who think its fairer to allow the combination of brinstar and rc, giving many characters absolutely no chance to avoid the mk cp to one of those.

That said, we never have and never will see a match of significance played on ps2. Its been legal for a while and theres an extremely obvious and damn good reason why no one ever picks it in matches that really matter.

 

[Yikarur]

Universal LGL is necessary, it destroys match-ups and makes the game unplayable in some kind..
FD as starter is fine, not comparable with RC at all. Complaining about FD is just a bad mentality, just because there is one character that is ridiculous good on that stage doesn't make the stage CP worthy, thats why we strike. The Stage is perfectly fine in almost every other match-up.

I fully agree with Grims Fail 3 and 4. Europe already decided to make only one legal and Pictochat is noooo go.

 

[Hylian]

Lol this drama

Bawwww fd is a starter D:
Strike it then ban it. GG.

Of course to the same people who complain about that, theres probably some who think its fairer to allow the combination of brinstar and rc, giving many characters absolutely no chance to avoid the mk cp to one of those.

That said, we never have and never will see a match of significance played on ps2. Its been legal for a while and theres an extremely obvious and damn good reason why no one ever picks it in matches that really matter.

..People have counterpicked me to PS2 several times in tournament.

 

[CT Chia]

i agree with this

didnt u say after whobo 3 that u thought what happened was bs and that ur next tourney will have a universal lgl?

 

[Yikarur]

I pick PS2 a lot because it's a really good stage to play on, the reason it's never pick are either people think the stage is gay and don't know how to handle it or they have stronger CP options.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with your anti-FD-starter sentiment grim but I feel that arguing to replace it is a poorer choice than arguing to add 2 additional stages (my preference being PS1 and Castle siege) to the starter list.

Like alpha zealot said, for better or worse the vast majority of players are used to seeing Final Destination on the starter list. Seeing the list grow a bit while still maintaining its normality for the most part will make it easier for players to adapt.

I agree. I just found the combo of 5 starters + FD jarring.

Lol this drama

Bawwww fd is a starter D:
Strike it then ban it. GG.

Grim's Starter List:
Temple
PS1
LC
YI
SV

Don't like Temple? Ban it. Nice logic there Browny.

Of course to the same people who complain about that, theres probably some who think its fairer to allow the combination of brinstar and rc, giving many characters absolutely no chance to avoid the mk cp to one of those.

herp a derp:

FAIL 4: One stage ban with Brinstar and Rainbow Ride legal.

Universal LGL is necessary, it destroys match-ups and makes the game unplayable in some kind..
FD as starter is fine, not comparable with RC at all. Complaining about FD is just a bad mentality, just because there is one character that is ridiculous good on that stage doesn't make the stage CP worthy, thats why we strike. The Stage is perfectly fine in almost every other match-up.

I fully agree with Grims Fail 3 and 4. Europe already decided to make only one legal and Pictochat is noooo go.

Universal LGL is equally as necessary as banning IC's blizzard vs. Ganondorf, can we do that too?

And there are lots of characters that are good there, Falco, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, King Dedede, Pikachu, etc....

 

[Ghostbone]

That said, we never have and never will see a match of significance played on ps2. Its been legal for a while and theres an extremely obvious and damn good reason why no one ever picks it in matches that really matter.

Because it's a neutral stage and there are muuuuch better counter-picks for many characters.

Like FD

 

[Bizkit047]

What people really need to remember is that this ruleset can change very quickly if there are any real problems. Make no mistake, Pictochat WILL be re-discussed very quickly. Then if that stage is removed, THEN we can move onto more controversial subjects, such as getting rid of one of the two CPs that's been in nearly every stage list ruleset since 2008, or the removing of a starter into CP that's been a standard starter since Brawl release.

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah like 50% of all characters or more are good on FD, thats not CP worthy.

 

[z00ted]

What people really need to remember is that this ruleset can change very quickly if there are any real problems. Make no mistake, Pictochat WILL be re-discussed very quickly. Then if that stage is removed, THEN we can move onto more controversial subjects, such as getting rid of one of the two CPs that's been in nearly every stage list ruleset since 2008, or the removing of a starter into CP that's been a standard starter since Brawl release.

Everyone PLEASE read this.

then read it again.