The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll RESULTS!

[LiteralGrill]

Due to the number of votes coming in slowing significantly faster than expected, the results of The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll will be released to the public early! After several similar previous polls this most recent poll has collect tons of data with over 3700 responses at the time of writing.

Here Are The Results!​

A full spreadsheet with all results can be found here. Many discussions based on tidbits of the poll have already started, hopefully the results within can be mined for the most interesting data and the dialog between players and tournament organizers can continue.

SmashCapps is incredibly excited for people to get digging into the data and for discussions to begin. To discuss the results with him personally or anything else Smash follow him on Twitter.

 

[kenniky]

LOL @ the people who said Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville should be banned

 

[LiteralGrill]

LOL @ the people who said FD, BF, and SV should be banned

Obviously there will be some trolls, but that's what the full spreadsheet is for, so people can filter through and get all the good results in the end.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

Loving the PS2 and 3 stocks support. Also it seems that much of the public is uninformed about Pilotwings.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Loving the PS2 and 3 stocks support. Also it seems that much of the public is uninformed about Pilotwings.

I think some people do know about Pilot Wings but think it could be fought around or isn't "that bad".

Not my opinion, but they are entitled to theirs.

 

[_Tree]

While these results are useful, I sincerely hope that this isn't the sole or even the main factor for deciding on the rule-set. I guarantee that most people who voted lack the perspective of a TO, or even someone who understands the game on an intrinsic level. I do hope many top players, TOs and community figures will be consulted before deciding on a final result...

 

[LiteralGrill]

While these results are useful, I sincerely hope that this isn't the sole or even the main factor for deciding on the rule-set. I guarantee that most people who voted lack the perspective of a TO, or even someone who understands the game on an intrinsic level. I do hope many top players, TOs and community figures will be consulted before decided on a final result...

There's no way this would have officially decided rulesets anywhere ever, what this does is get a pulse on how the community feels so that the discussion can start taking place.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

I think some people do know about Pilot Wings but think it could be fought around or isn't "that bad".

Not my opinion, but they are entitled to theirs.

I could see how they could think that, but it promotes camping and degenerate play so much that I would rather play on Mushroom Kingdom U and deal with Nabbit.

 

[GreenChaChing]

Me after looking all the legality of stages

 

[DaRkJaWs]

The one thing I absolutely do not like about the competitive community is the banned/unbanned list of stages. Other than stages with holes in the middle of them or with too many stage threats, it shouldn't be up to a select few people to decide what should or shouldn't be banned again with the few exceptions made. The only characters that this benefits are the the higher tier ones, and nobody seems to realize that or care. Stages like Luigis mansion should not be banned, and I don't give a damn what your pathetic arguments are against it.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

Me after looking all the legality of stages

He was actually almost 100% right except on Pilotwings.

 

[Radical Larry]

Lylat Cruise: Legal
Town and City: Legal
Smashville: Legal
Castle Seige: Legal
Coliseum: Banned
Halberd: Legal
Luigi's Mansion: Banned
Me: *starts going red with anger*

Let me tell you some things, okay?

Lylat Cruise is a stage with a very low blast zone and can catch anyone's recovery from underneath; it's a discount version of Brawl Final Destination, where one mistake, however minor it can be, in recovering, will catch you on the bottom of the stage.

Town and City suffers from the same thing that Wii Fit Studio has; it has platforms that can automatically kill you if you're unprepared. And even if you manage to escape, it allows your opponent to freely hit you because of that. Why do we have a legal stage that can automatically kill you, but not any run off stages? Tell me how the hell that makes sense.

Smashville...ugh, it's basically got the same thing that Town and City does. But ask yourselves this...when we have stages that have equal sides to them, why do we have a stage that allows the opponent to kill you at such a low damage at so close to the blast zone? And why have a stage that catches your impromptu attacks from above?

Castle Seige...okay, as if the second part being a run-off isn't bad enough, since we shouldn't have run-offs, right? Every time you're in the wrong spot during the transition, you get KO'd because it now transitions too fast.

Coliseum, so wait, we can have cheaper stages like Castle Seige, Smashville and Lylat Cruise, but not this stage? Still, doesn't...make...sense.

Halberd. Wait, so we can have this stage, which has hazards on it that benefit one character if they hit, but we can't have the other stages as well? Poor stage selection.

Luigi's Mansion. How does banning it even make any remote sense? It's not like there are hazards or run offs, or that it catches recoveries and stuff, but just...how the heck is that stage even banned? There's absolutely nothing wrong to it. "Competitive" logic I guess.

I did this all in the GamingSins style, but really, if you think long and hard about it, the stage legality makes almost no sense. At all.

 

[LiteralGrill]

snip

So you're suggesting we ONLY have Battlefield and Final Destination legal?

 

[Camalange]

The amount of people who said they never attend tournaments...

Suddenly I care less about these results.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

@ LiteralGrill Aren't these results kinda early? I'm guessing it was because the responses dried up. Anyways thanks for doing this for the community, I'm sure everyone appreciates the hard work you do.

 

[Radical Larry]

So you're suggesting we ONLY have Battlefield and Final Destination legal?

No, I'm just saying if we have stages like Halberd and Castle Seige, we should have other stages like them as well. It makes no sense to include them and not include others as well, because stages like Town and City can instantly KO you, while Coliseum doesn't, and the latter is banned.

I think we should actually make more tests to the stages and actually give all of them a chance in tournaments before deciding which ones are banned or not. Because honestly, people:

The one thing I absolutely do not like about the competitive community is the banned/unbanned list of stages. Other than stages with holes in the middle of them or with too many stage threats, it shouldn't be up to a select few people to decide what should or shouldn't be banned again with the few exceptions made. The only characters that this benefits are the the higher tier ones, and nobody seems to realize that or care. Stages like Luigis mansion should not be banned, and I don't give a damn what your pathetic arguments are against it.

This guy is right; the only characters that this benefits are the higher tiered characters, especially the ones with projectiles.

@ LiteralGrill Now don't get me wrong, I like what you do, but the stages need much more fundamental testing in tournaments to be considered banned or not.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

The Reddit post should be stickied.

That's all.

 

[Culex77]

Here's what confuses me. According to those results Wuhu Island is considered legal but it's banned on the Stage Striking list. So what are we gonna do about that one?

 

[Notries]

Has anyone notice that, of the 3700 people to fill this out, only FIVE people said they mained Mii Swordfighter?

 

[kenniky]

Lylat Cruise: Legal
Town and City: Legal
Smashville: Legal
Castle Seige: Legal
Coliseum: Banned
Halberd: Legal
Luigi's Mansion: Banned
Me: *starts going red with anger*

Let me tell you some things, okay?

Lylat Cruise is a stage with a very low blast zone and can catch anyone's recovery from underneath; it's a discount version of Brawl Final Destination, where one mistake, however minor it can be, in recovering, will catch you on the bottom of the stage.

Town and City suffers from the same thing that Wii Fit Studio has; it has platforms that can automatically kill you if you're unprepared. And even if you manage to escape, it allows your opponent to freely hit you because of that. Why do we have a legal stage that can automatically kill you, but not any run off stages? Tell me how the hell that makes sense.

Smashville...ugh, it's basically got the same thing that Town and City does. But ask yourselves this...when we have stages that have equal sides to them, why do we have a stage that allows the opponent to kill you at such a low damage at so close to the blast zone? And why have a stage that catches your impromptu attacks from above?

Castle Seige...okay, as if the second part being a run-off isn't bad enough, since we shouldn't have run-offs, right? Every time you're in the wrong spot during the transition, you get KO'd because it now transitions too fast.

Coliseum, so wait, we can have cheaper stages like Castle Seige, Smashville and Lylat Cruise, but not this stage? Still, doesn't...make...sense.

Halberd. Wait, so we can have this stage, which has hazards on it that benefit one character if they hit, but we can't have the other stages as well? Poor stage selection.

Luigi's Mansion. How does banning it even make any remote sense? It's not like there are hazards or run offs, or that it catches recoveries and stuff, but just...how the heck is that stage even banned? There's absolutely nothing wrong to it. "Competitive" logic I guess.

I did this all in the GamingSins style, but really, if you think long and hard about it, the stage legality makes almost no sense. At all.

Lylat has been legal since Brawl. The only thing people don't like about it is its wonky edges, but that's been fixed in 1.0.6 and hurts almost every character equally anyway. The platform layout is really good, and if you're suggesting that FD should be banned in Brawl, you should get out, because you're insane.

Town and City has platforms that can kill you? Get off of them. The same argument can be applied to Delfino and Skyloft, and I don't see you whining about those.

Smashville's platform does not go off the side of the stage. Smashville is actually considered the most neutral stage. Banning it would cause the community to literally commit suicide.

Castle Siege? The walkoff is fine there because it changes. If you camp the walkoff, the stage transitions and suddenly you're off of it. Once again, Delfino and Skyloft have a similar situation and you're not whining about them. Castle Siege's transitions are also well paced and honestly if you're any good at this game you should be aware of the transitions and prepare to adapt.

Coliseum is a permanent walkoff.

Halberd's hazards are super telegraphed and therefore extremely easy to avoid. Halberd's worst feature is its extremely low ceiling, not the hazards.

Luigi's Mansion is large and promotes circle camping, and the pillars absorb projectiles, completely invalidating characters like Samus. imo it's Doubles Counterpick worthy, but nothing more than that.

 

[equationcrunchor]

Disturbing amount of people who say they never play the game...

 

[LiteralGrill]

The amount of people who said they never attend tournaments...

Suddenly I care less about these results.

Don't forget you can go through the spreadsheet and filter out all results from non tournament goers if you so wish.

@ ShuckleBoard

Due to the number of votes coming in slowing significantly faster than expected, the results of The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll will be released to the public early!

@ LiteralGrill Now don't get me wrong, I like what you do, but the stages need much more fundamental testing in tournaments to be considered banned or not.

I just misunderstood what you meant is all! Actually, I've ran several stage testing tournaments myself with some of the stages on this list even! I agree it would be nice to at least see some of these stages given a shot.

Disturbing amount of people who say they never play the game...

There is no question in the poll that could tell you people didn't play the game at all, did you confuse the question with "none" as an answer by chance? that meant those people ONLY play Smash 4.

 

[Delzethin]

Great to see 3 Stock/8 Minutes being so favored. I just hope as much of that vote as possible was from informed fans.

Meanwhile, I noticed something interesting: there were a surprising amount of votes to legalize Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio. It seems there're still some people who think any hazards make a stage more banworthy than permanent walk-offs do.

We could really use a super-spread-out guide that explains what stage elements are red flags in what contexts. The more informed the community can be, the better we'd be able to judge these things.

 

[Radical Larry]

Lylat has been legal since Brawl. The only thing people don't like about it is its wonky edges, but that's been fixed in 1.0.6 and hurts almost every character equally anyway. The platform layout is really good, and if you're suggesting that FD should be banned in Brawl, you should get out, because you're insane.

Town and City has platforms that can kill you? Get off of them. The same argument can be applied to Delfino and Skyloft, and I don't see you whining about those.

Smashville's platform does not go off the side of the stage. Smashville is actually considered the most neutral stage. Banning it would cause the community to literally commit suicide.

Castle Siege? The walkoff is fine there because it changes. If you camp the walkoff, the stage transitions and suddenly you're off of it. Once again, Delfino and Skyloft have a similar situation and you're not whining about them. Castle Siege's transitions are also well paced and honestly if you're any good at this game you should be aware of the transitions and prepare to adapt.

Coliseum is a permanent walkoff.

Halberd's hazards are super telegraphed and therefore extremely easy to avoid. Halberd's worst feature is its extremely low ceiling, not the hazards.

Luigi's Mansion is large and promotes circle camping, and the pillars absorb projectiles, completely invalidating characters like Samus. imo it's Doubles Counterpick worthy, but nothing more than that.

Still, I my recovery gets caught in Lylat all the time I'm recovering from below, no matter what I do. It's left a very pitiful taste in my mouth.

Town and City has faster platforms that can kill you. Skyloft and Delfino Plaza slow down; Town and City speeds up.

When I said off the side of the stage, I meant the main platform. It's so close to the blast line, any character can use a move and KO their opponent.

Unless you're in the right spot, transitioning will get you into a bad position. And the walk off stage portion lasts so long too, but at least it has platforms and a sky.

But there are no chain throws in this game that will allow characters to die from walk offs anymore. It's only player choices that allow for characters to go near the sides of the stages. It's perfectly fine to have it like that.

Oh, so you're saying we can't grab the opponent and throw them into the laser at the right time? It's called making sure you hit the opponent into it. Something other stages have too.

Luigi's Mansion is not that large at all, and I haven't seen any circle camping. Also, it's a good thing the pillars absorb the projectiles, because would we really want Samus using her Charge Shot, which charges up quickly and dealing high damage, to hit us? It's a cheap move to use, so the pillars would act as a countermeasure to such an attack.

Again, giving a test for these stages isn't that hard to do. It's not that bad to actually use all stages in tournaments.

 

[Camalange]

Don't forget you can go through the spreadsheet and filter out all results from non tournament goers if you so wish.

It's still good to know I guess what viewers want but it's also super disheartening to see.

 

[kenniky]

Still, I my recovery gets caught in Lylat all the time I'm recovering from below, no matter what I do. It's left a very pitiful taste in my mouth.

Town and City has faster platforms that can kill you. Skyloft and Delfino Plaza slow down; Town and City speeds up.

When I said off the side of the stage, I meant the main platform. It's so close to the blast line, any character can use a move and KO their opponent.

Unless you're in the right spot, transitioning will get you into a bad position. And the walk off stage portion lasts so long too, but at least it has platforms and a sky.

But there are no chain throws in this game that will allow characters to die from walk offs anymore. It's only player choices that allow for characters to go near the sides of the stages. It's perfectly fine to have it like that.

Oh, so you're saying we can't grab the opponent and throw them into the laser at the right time? It's called making sure you hit the opponent into it. Something other stages have too.

Luigi's Mansion is not that large at all, and I haven't seen any circle camping. Also, it's a good thing the pillars absorb the projectiles, because would we really want Samus using her Charge Shot, which charges up quickly and dealing high damage, to hit us? It's a cheap move to use, so the pillars would act as a countermeasure to such an attack.

Again, giving a test for these stages isn't that hard to do. It's not that bad to actually use all stages in tournaments.

um

But there are no chain throws in this game that will allow characters to die from walk offs anymore. It's only player choices that allow for characters to go near the sides of the stages. It's perfectly fine to have it like that.

People can still camp the edge. This causes a standstill because the one near the ledge doesn't want to give up their advantageous position and the one who isn't there doesn't want to approach because one mistake could lead to an instant KO. It's boring and detrimental to play in general, not just competitive.

Oh, so you're saying we can't grab the opponent and throw them into the laser at the right time? It's called making sure you hit the opponent into it. Something other stages have too.

That's what we call strategy. If they can do it, you can do it too.

Luigi's Mansion is not that large at all, and I haven't seen any circle camping. Also, it's a good thing the pillars absorb the projectiles, because would we really want Samus using her Charge Shot, which charges up quickly and dealing high damage, to hit us? It's a cheap move to use, so the pillars would act as a countermeasure to such an attack.

> Charge Shot is a cheap move

Charge Shot is Samus's BEST move. Removing Charge Shot and Missile's functionality sends Samus into a pit deeper than that of Melee Kirby, Brawl Ganon and Mii Swordfighter combined.

It's not that bad to actually use all stages in tournaments.

>Gaur Plain
>Wily Castle
>Pyrosphere
>Palutena's Temple
>Hyrule Temple
>The Great Cave Offensive
>Jungle Hijinx
>75m
>Flat Zone X
>Boxing Ring
>PAC-LAND

...Are you okay?

 

[kylexv]

The people saying Stadium 2 should be legal .

Most of the sections make this stage unplayable in tournaments. Ice physics, treadmills, wind, etc.

 

[T0MMY]

As I stated prior: I am more interested in how the data will be interpreted and used than I am in the data itself.

Competition necessitates its own realm to perform away from the casual scene.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

Lylat Cruise is a stage with a very low blast zone and can catch anyone's recovery from underneath; it's a discount version of Brawl Final Destination, where one mistake, however minor it can be, in recovering, will catch you on the bottom of the stage.

Lylat Cruise is a perfectly fine stage now that its ledges' collisions have been adjusted to be registered as slopes; in no way is it a "discount Brawl FD". While it's listed as a starter, pretty much anyone that selects it does so as a counter-pick, because it's much more suited as one.

Town and City suffers from the same thing that Wii Fit Studio has; it has platforms that can automatically kill you if you're unprepared. And even if you manage to escape, it allows your opponent to freely hit you because of that. Why do we have a legal stage that can automatically kill you, but not any run off stages? Tell me how the hell that makes sense.

Wii Fit Studio is a walk-off, and it's nearly impossible to succumb to T&C's retreating platforms. Only under the most exceptional of circumstances will it happen.

Smashville...ugh, it's basically got the same thing that Town and City does. But ask yourselves this...when we have stages that have equal sides to them, why do we have a stage that allows the opponent to kill you at such a low damage at so close to the blast zone? And why have a stage that catches your impromptu attacks from above?

Smashville's platform goes into the blast zones? That's news to me. Probably because it doesn't.

Castle Seige...okay, as if the second part being a run-off isn't bad enough, since we shouldn't have run-offs, right? Every time you're in the wrong spot during the transition, you get KO'd because it now transitions too fast.

The second phase isn't permanent, just like Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, and Wuhu Island's drop-off sections -- it's a counter-pick stage for a reason. The other phases are perfectly fine, and rarely have I seen someone die because of the transitions.

Coliseum, so wait, we can have cheaper stages like Castle Seige, Smashville and Lylat Cruise, but not this stage? Still, doesn't...make...sense.

Coliseum is a gigantic permanent walk-off. Killing is outrageously difficult unless you cheese a stock by camping on one of the sides and manage to land a grab.

Halberd. Wait, so we can have this stage, which has hazards on it that benefit one character if they hit, but we can't have the other stages as well? Poor stage selection.

The one part of your post that's actually legit.

Luigi's Mansion. How does banning it even make any remote sense? It's not like there are hazards or run offs, or that it catches recoveries and stuff, but just...how the heck is that stage even banned? There's absolutely nothing wrong to it. "Competitive" logic I guess.

Let's see, its middle platforms aren't semi-soft, creating caves of life, and the support beams interfere with attack timings & block projectiles. Sounds like a dumb stage to me.

 

[Radical Larry]

Lylat Cruise is a perfectly fine stage now that its ledges' collisions have been adjusted to be registered as slopes; in no way is it a "discount Brawl FD". . While it's listed as a starter, pretty much anyone that selects it does so as a counter-pick, because it's much more suited as one.



Wii Fit Studio is a walk-off, and it's nearly impossible to succumb to T&C's retreated ledges. Only under the most exceptional of circumstances will it happen.



Smashville's platform goes into the blast zones? That's news to me. Probably because it doesn't.



The second phase isn't permanent, just like Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, and Wuhu Island's drop-off sections -- it's a counter-pick stage for a reason. The other phases are perfectly fine, and rarely have I seen someone die because of the transitions.



Coliseum is a gigantic permanent walk-off. Killing is outrageously difficult unless you cheese a stock by camping on one of the sides and manage to land a grab.



The one part of your post that's actually legit.



Let's see, its middle platforms aren't semi-soft, creating caves of life, and the support beams interfere with attack timings & block projectiles. Sounds like a dumb stage to me.

Though the idea of Lylat being Counterpick is good, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth from Brawl.

At least make T & C a counterpick instead of others. It'd make more sense than to make it completely legal without proper testing.

Smashville's platform goes NEAR the Blast Zones, like extremely close.

Counterpicking is a good option.

Solution: Kill the opponent vertically.

Still, aside from that stuff, it's a completely balanced stage. Its pillars stop projectile camping and players can always fight from the top of the stage itself.

 

[link7]

Nice to see people want Skyloft legalized.

 

[MikeKirby]

Still, I my recovery gets caught in Lylat all the time I'm recovering from below, no matter what I do. It's left a very pitiful taste in my mouth.

Town and City has faster platforms that can kill you. Skyloft and Delfino Plaza slow down; Town and City speeds up.

When I said off the side of the stage, I meant the main platform. It's so close to the blast line, any character can use a move and KO their opponent.

Unless you're in the right spot, transitioning will get you into a bad position. And the walk off stage portion lasts so long too, but at least it has platforms and a sky.

But there are no chain throws in this game that will allow characters to die from walk offs anymore. It's only player choices that allow for characters to go near the sides of the stages. It's perfectly fine to have it like that.

Oh, so you're saying we can't grab the opponent and throw them into the laser at the right time? It's called making sure you hit the opponent into it. Something other stages have too.

Luigi's Mansion is not that large at all, and I haven't seen any circle camping. Also, it's a good thing the pillars absorb the projectiles, because would we really want Samus using her Charge Shot, which charges up quickly and dealing high damage, to hit us? It's a cheap move to use, so the pillars would act as a countermeasure to such an attack.

Again, giving a test for these stages isn't that hard to do. It's not that bad to actually use all stages in tournaments.

Lylat Cruise is fine. I've never had a problem with the ledge no matter what character I used. If I get caught under the stage it's because I spaced my recovery wrong or allowed myself to be placed in a position where I couldn't snap the ledge. The ledge snap magnet is pretty large and forgiving since Brawl. I'm sure it can give some characters trouble recovering but that's why it's counterpick material. If you don't like that then strike it after game 1, simple.

Town and City's platform's can kill you, yes, and they did... when we first played the game on release. But you know what? We learned after the first few weeks upon release and I've never or very rarely seen people get scooped by the platforms; learn to tech and/or stay calm and just jump. If anything there is anything problematic about the platforms I'd say it would be when the platforms return. Sometimes it would scoop you in as the return and your opponent might get a free hit.

Arguing against Smashville or Town and City because the platform is close to the ledge and can 'cause early KO's is not a good argument. Mainly because you allowed yourself to get placed in that situation. Getting grabbed and thrown while on the platform into the blastzone is literally you handing yourself over and not respecting your opponent's shield; not the stage's fault that's the player's fault.

Coliseum is a stage I was indifferent about and voted as a stage that could deserve some testing since there are no chain grabs. However, if watching two characters camp the edge of the stage for the whole match is your thing, then all the more power to you.

Halberd literally tells both you and your opponent "hey, I'm throwing out a hitbox guys". Other stages simply just place their hitbox without warning. Both players on Halberd see it and both players are aware of the situation. If you got thrown into the telegraphed hitbox then you weren't playing paying attention or weren't playing safe. The better player took advantage of a situation that the other recklessly didn't acknowledge.

Luigi's Mansion has been tested since Brawl and it's still the same. It has a pseudo cave of life and allows circle camping. Nobody likes to get hit by a Charge Shot but thankfully we have a shield button. Calling Samus's Charge Shot cheap makes me question the quality of your debate. It's far from being qualified as a cheap move.

 

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

Lol at somebody saying the Kong Cyclone custom should be banned.

 

[Xermo]

No wonder smash 4 is so dysfunctional, most of its playerbase are newcomers.

 

[WarioJim]

Now, why can't I find my Username or suggestion there? I definitely posted it through.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Let me reiterate: there is NO GOOD aRGUmENT against luigis mansion. None. The only answer I've heard here is that it's bad for samus.
LOL. Then samus' CAN BAN THE STAGE! And guess what: some maps are good for some characters and bad for others. That's a fact of life. Good lord what pathetic arguments. And anyone who says that promote circle camping, again the question that should be asked is who benefits by it being banned? All the top tier characters. We need to finally make a stand and say enough is enough, we are not going to let the players playing the top characters determine which maps should be played. PERiOd.

 

[ShortRound]

Legalize Gamer!

 

[DaRkJaWs]

[quote="MikeKirby, post: 19208690, member: 39976"

Luigi's Mansion has been tested since Brawl and it's still the same. It has a pseudo cave of life and allows circle camping. Nobody likes to get hit by a Charge Shot but thankfully we have a shield button. Calling Samus's Charge Shot cheap makes me question the quality of your debate. It's far from being qualified as a cheap move.[/quote]
Actually you should be saying luigis mansion is fine, because each player is allowed to ban some stages.

 

[The 0ne]

I'm generally in favor of customs, but I just realized that if DLC characters will be anything like Mewtwo, they won't have customs.

And despite the possibility of them perhaps being bad anyway, they're at an unfair disadvantage.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

No wonder smash 4 is so dysfunctional, most of its playerbase are newcomers.

Yeah any new game is to be judged on whether mostly old players play it...if it's mostly old players then it's a good game, and if there are new players it must be a showing that the game is bad and should be ridiculed.