The Triforce of Toon: A Community Toon Link Guide

[Remzi]

I definitely didn't mean to ask in this thread, my bad haha.

But anyways, I'm not switching to a different character. I could figure that out myself. I was hoping for some actual advice....

 

[~TLK~]

i think if they have their back to you and they are shielding then multiple utilts are great. the only thing they can do is roll away and thats a free upsmash. if they are facing towards you i would advise against it unless they have a really slow grab because you should get away with it if they do.

 

[CTX]

Unless you are facing anybody with a good OoS...which there are a number of characters that would fit this criteria...

Well, the way that I see it, TL can control the air really well in teams. If you can play a marth that can control the ground (using more Dancing Blade, tilts, and grabs) that would be effective

 

[~TLK~]

Unless you are facing anybody with a good OoS...which there are a number of characters that would fit this criteria...

Well, the way that I see it, TL can control the air really well in teams. If you can play a marth that can control the ground (using more Dancing Blade, tilts, and grabs) that would be effective

yeah i guess so. i definately think it is a situationally good strategy but maybe not always the best. know your characters and know if it works i guess.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok Toons, I'm back in business for the next few months (you've gotta love uni holidays) so I'll be doing some updating on this finally.

To get things rolling, I'm changing the topic. We are now no longer talking about combos, we are now talking about killing. "But what about the unfinished combo section?" We'll do it later. It wasn't really going anywhere and I didn't have the time/wasn't bothered to test the percents or anything. So we're starting on a clean slate and a fresh second post (the OP was getting quite crowded and it seemed like a fitting time to use that reserved second post).


Current discussion
We're talking about Killing. I haven't really thought about how I'm going to structure the killing section yet, so for now, we'll be talking about killing in general and then later on when I'm writing it and I start putting things into sections or whatever, I may ask for more input on a particular section. So what's killing in general? Well you want to talk about what moves you like to use for killing, what seems to work, how you set up kill moves, what percentage you start to think about killing and what you're looking for from your opponent that will decide whether you go for that kill or not. So come to think of it, I'm really asking for a more detailed discussion on killing, not just, 'this move will kill at this percent'. I want you to tell me what's going on in your mind (and the opponents mind, but in the sense that you're reading what's going on in their mind and acting accordingly). We won't talk about gimping just yet, although that is a legit kill option. So not only kill set ups and going in for the kill mind set, but what if you miss the kill move? Your mind set will have to change if the opponent is playing defensive rather than aggressive. Anyway, we'll see how this works out. I may keep asking questions if I'm not getting the right kind of feedback, but this is a very broad topic so it's not too hard to talk about it.

Let's get this done.

 

[~TLK~]

its definately all situational, but i will be the first to throw my ideas out there. first of all, the usmash. a great killer. its quick and strong and somewhat spammable. the downside? it can get pretty predictable and can be OoS shield countered pretty easy. i think this move works best out of great reads because otherwise it doesnt work that well. frankly i see most of toons kills happening around 150-160%. i think the nair is a very underrated killer. at moderate freshness it kills light characters(like metaknight) around that percentage and heaver characters maybe 170-180 unless you get them on the edge. my basic starategy is to just camp camp camp until whatever killing opportunity presents itself appears. bairs and uairs are also great killers. for bairs the same strategy applies, camp em high and finish with an attack thats easier to hit. it is a nice killing move and probrobly my most plentiful one. The uair can take people by surprise more than you might think. i like to throw bombs up at opponents jumping high and when they try to airdodge the bomb i uair them or something like that. there is also bomb combos to uair by throwing them down that can work very nicely.

 

[Chsal]

How I kill.

Zair -> Usmash
Nair
Bair
Bait airdodge -> Uair
Bomb -> Uair
Read -> Whatever (Lol)

I do other stuff too but thats most of it.

How I use them depends on the situation.
That means :
Character I'm facing
PERSON I'm facing
My % and his %
What I've previously done.

Generally, if the character I'm facing has fantastic punish options, (Snake) I'll go for the safer kills.

If the person I'm facing has been hit by every Zair followup throughout the match, I'll go for a Zair followup kill (Usually Usmash).

If I'm at high %, I'll tend to camp more and get the safe kill.
If hes at high %, I'll try for a Nair or Bair as they would kill anyway, rather than going for an Usmash which is not as safe.

If I have killed him the last 2 stock with a Zair -> Usmash I most likely won't do it again since hes expecting it.

Lately though I've been getting more kills with Bomb -> Uair, as it transitions nicely from a camping playstyle. Also since its safe to miss with this option.

The "Read -> Whatever" up there is half-serious. I have a friend who loves doing a Dsmash after his Shuttle Loop.

Overall though, I tend to play in a "Camp, don't bother about the kill, but get it if the opportunity presents itself". If you're camping (well) you should have a % lead.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This is good stuff so far guys. I'll wait for more people to reply before I update though. I would have to agree with most of what has been said so far. It's interesting to note the difference between how much you think about the kill between Fox and Toon. With Fox, the kill is basicaly always on my mind, I'm watching the opponents percents, I know what percent they have to be on for all my kill moves and I know how to set them up, but with Toon for some reason I take it less seriously and the kills just come naturaly when the opportunity presents itself (sort of opportunistic kills rather than planned kills). Is this difference character specific, or is it 'players who play that character' specific. Should Toon's focus more on the kill like Fox? Anyway, that's just an interesting observation I made a while ago between my playstyles.
Let's hear a bit more from the ones who haven't posted yet. You know who you are. Just post, even if it's short. Every contribution counts.

 

[Ic0slay3r]

I pretty much go for the kill when an opportunity presents itself. But after 150% I start to get more aggressive since I know I can get the kill with a few of TL attacks.

 

[G-Dub]

Getting a kill with toon link really relies on setting up the kill with projectiles, and making good reads/punishing a bad approach (depending on the situation). I go for the kill via UAir or FAir at around 110-120%. If the kill doesnt present itself, i'll usually get it with a fresh UTilt usually around 130. Certain characters (snake for example) risk an easy stock with good edge guarding (I feel shda helps with this).
Just stay patient and wait for the kill and know what moves kill when.

 

[MaskedAvnger]

Someone mentioned a chaingrab on Fox a while ago, has anything else come out on that?

 

[MJG]

Someone mentioned a chaingrab on Fox a while ago, has anything else come out on that?

I was planning on finishing my vid for the CG on fox...I just haven't found time to do so.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Sweetness, the killing section is done. Thanks to everyone who helped with that one.

Ok so that means the Gimping section is next. I ****ing love gimping! This topic of discussion should include (but is not limited to) anything and everything that takes away stocks early and as a related topic, anything that stunts the opponent's recovery (and therefore kills them which may or may not mean an early stock). What is going to be defined as an early stock? I think we can presume that anything under F-smash/U-smash percentages is an early stock.
This one should be fun. Post away. Let's hear what you've got to say. (First posters get to say the bleeding obvious without re-stating anything XD)

 

[Chsal]

Hooray I get to say bleeding obvious.

First, for me, I'm thinking an early stock is before 80%, varying slightly on character.
Around 60 or so for say... GaW and 100 for Snake.

Lol. Gimmicky bomb gimps.

But now that I think about it, I don't gimp all that much with TL.

Most of the time, it'll just be hitting the opponent with a boomerang or something off stage.
Otherwise, random Ftilt semi-spikes, stage spikes, etc.

Plus we don't have a sex kick that we can just walk off and pull out. Uair hits them back up onto the stage.

Oh and we have that crappy suicidal spike, which I use sometimes to ledgeguard and troll sloppy ledge getups.

Trolling with Dair =D.

I'm not sure if its actually legit though, or if Joe was holding down.

 

[WindMajor]

I thought the most painfully obvious gimp was the down smash gimp. I'm sure Fox already knows all about it though, so I won't really have to teach him anything.

A less obvious gimping option would be TL's Zair offstage. It extends pretty far ahead of him, and it just kinda pokes the opponent backwards with very very low knockback, making them just spiral down. It's kind of like using arrows against a Falco that's using phantasm, when it hits, Falco just falls down.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Gimp set up moves: F-tilt, D-smash, Dash attack, anything that hits them out off stage like F-smash, Nair or Fair.
Gimping tools: Dair, Nair, Fair, Arrows, to some extent Boomerang, Zair, Bair stage spikes, Tether/edgehogging, footstools XD.
Feel free to disagree and take away or add more to the above. They are just to point the discussion in the right direction

I just love battling off stage (against the majority of characters). Toon's Nair/Fair is a killer off stage at pretty much any percent. Arrows steal double jumps and stunt their recovery in general because they don't hit them upwards. Things like that.

I'll sometimes throw a Bomb up or something to prevent the opponent from recovering too high (just to stop them from drifting towards the middle of the stage, not to actually hit them). Every now and then (as an example) I'll jump out with a Bomb, throw it up infront of them and then do a double Jump Nair. It can catch them by surprise how quickly it comes out.

I hope all that rambling helps give a rough idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[MJG]

Zair > Dash Attack near the ledge.

It pushes the opponents at a downward angle.

 

[Thebest1pj]

Real talk. ask hyro he gimps people like with the dumbest ****.

 

[Chsal]

Anybody know how legit my Dair ledgeguarding was?

I'm not too sure that it works but in the case it does...

Oh and it ***** people who like ledgedrop->double jump -> Fair or w/e back onto the stage.

 

[MJG]

Anybody know how legit my Dair ledgeguarding was?

I'm not too sure that it works but in the case it does...

Oh and it ***** people who like ledgedrop->double jump -> Fair or w/e back onto the stage.

It is really not that safe to be doing a lot during a match. Other than that, I don't see what could be wrong about it. I wouldn't risk doing that vs MK though :o

 

[Chsal]

Well yea its not exactly something you would spam... But just getting one off helps a lot.

I don't see what could be wrong about it

I was wondering if it worked like Dairs in Melee, where the hitbox extended further than the ledge. If it extends far enough it would be a really broken ledgeguard against some characters.

 

[G-Dub]

I have some success using dair on opponents hanging on the ledge. If spaced properly it will spike, and toon will stay on the level. It works as a sort of mind game because a non-agro edge guarding TL may have some characters plank before returning to the stage (pit...). If that TL times the dair right, not only will it punish a get up attack, but if the opponent rolls before the dair, the toon has an easy bair.
I find it as good mix-up that adds a little pressure. Just use VERY sparingly.

 

[KT Kasrani]

short hop at ledge. angle rang down and z-drop a bomb.

 

[Lobos]

I invented the chaingrab on fox like 2 years ago

Anyways it only works to like 28-34%........just down throw > standing pivot grab > down throw > repeat

I had a video of me doing it to someone in tourney somewhere on youtube

 

[MJG]

I invented the chaingrab on fox like 2 years ago

Anyways it only works to like 28-34%........just down throw > standing pivot grab > down throw > repeat

I had a video of me doing it to someone in tourney somewhere on youtube

A lot of players have been doing this to fox since the game came out lol.(it works on falco at 0 but not to Fox's percentage). SO don't feel to special

It only goes to 28% btw (as stated earlier) and then you can down smash at that percentage or lower.

 

[G-Dub]

It only goes to 28% btw (as stated earlier) and then you can down smash at that percentage or lower.

So at 28% after the last dthrow tink can dsmash/gimp fox? Is that guarenteed?

 

[MJG]

Yes. It is guaranteed. Look at the Ledge Options thread and you will see it.

EDIT: MEant grabs...haven't been to sleep @.@

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Things are really starting to shape up. I was finally bothered to write up the gimping section.

So next up is the Edgeguarding section.
It's simple. You're on stage, the opponent is on the edge, you don't want them to get back on stage and preferably you want to hit them back out off stage. Because they're on the edge, they're limited in their options which means we should have an advantage. So let's talk options. What do you do? How do you edgeguard? If they do... how do you counter it and what with?

I'm not going to lie, I'm going to need help writing this one as edgeguarding isn't one of my strong points. Any feedback will be appreciated especially extensive in-depth feedback.

One more time, edgeguarding, you're in that situation, what now?

 

[Ic0slay3r]

I usually stay back and try to spam arrows. Also throw bombs close to the edge trying to get a stage spike.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah I've tried that before and to some extent it works, but I know that Toon has the capability to do so much better than that. Usualy my opponents just have to time their get-up options and this tactic doesn't hinder them at all. We need something better. Tedeth has the most amazing edgeguarding game I've ever seen so I know what it should look like and I know first hand how much a solid edgeguarding game can destroy a stock (or three), the only problem is he uses other characters, so trying to convert his tactics to Toon tactics has been a bit hard. Surely there is someone, prefferably a Toon main (prefferably a pro, but at this point I'll take anything) that can help out here.

 

[G-Dub]

Easy multi-projectile edge guarding: Pull bomb-thorw rang-SHDA-throw bomb. This is probably the easiest and safest edgeguarding option imo. It's also pretty effective, especially against the starfox characters/other character with few recovery opions. The best part of this edge-guard is that it only takes one projectile to hit to give you an opportunity to add pressure by attacking off stage where TL usually has the advantage. I manage to hit with all four projectiles rather reliably, espectially with good mix-ups on my edge-guarding.
I'll prolly write more later when im not in school

 

[WindMajor]

Okay this might sound a bit silly, but has anyone ever tried setting up a C4'd bomb around the ledge? Like not ON it, but about sword's length away from it.

If you can set up a C4 with time, then the enemy will be all mind gamed and think, "Man I can't do any attacks because I'll hit the bomb and it might blow up or something" which will limit their ledge getup options aka give you less things to worry about.

Btw I haven't even tried this, I'm purely theorizing now.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Ok this is interesting. Like I mean the whole thing, not anything in particular.

I'm just going to put this out there. Is it possible, that the Toon's, as a character, have never developed a proper edgeguarding game? Now don't take this the wrong way, realy. I mean, sure, spamming is what we do, so it's only natural that we would edgeguard with spam. But is this an area of Toon's meta game that hasn't been worked on properly or looked at or developed? Or is it just the character?

Here's the question for now. Is Toon's best way of edgeguarding realy just to spam?
I for one won't accept that. At least not yet.

I'm not even sure if this particular part of Toon's meta game has ever even been discussed properly. I'm interested to see where this goes. Post your opinion.

 

[Ic0slay3r]

For me its just that it is way to risky to try anything besides spamming, the other option in my opinion its just that after spamming a few items, run to the ledge, edgegrab and do the tether canceling or w.e the name is, that is you just let go off the ledge and regrab it really fast with the tether, mix this up with a back air if your opponent character have really obvious recovery. But this will probably send them up and it would be better for them to recover.

Trying anything means TL getting gimped if you fail. TL just doesn't have that many options: Dair is kinda useless and extremely risky, Nair will work the same way as a bair, upair is kinda slow imo.

So I don't really know. If you want to play safe just spam . If the projectile spam works and you know he is gonna have a hard time recovering again grab the ledge really fast and wait him with a bair o nair.

I really sure this have been said million times but I just wanted to contribute

 

[Jaxys]

Okay this might sound a bit silly, but has anyone ever tried setting up a C4'd bomb around the ledge? Like not ON it, but about sword's length away from it.

If you can set up a C4 with time, then the enemy will be all mind gamed and think, "Man I can't do any attacks because I'll hit the bomb and it might blow up or something" which will limit their ledge getup options aka give you less things to worry about.

Btw I haven't even tried this, I'm purely theorizing now.

Wow that might work if the invincibility frames diminish fast enough. I have no knowledge whatsover about stuff like that though, so I guess I shouldn't be commenting on this. Still, neat idea.

They might be forced to either jump or stall on the ledge. If they jump maybe you can punish them and lead them into a string of attacks. I haven't seen anyone use the spin attack near the ledge so it *might* be an option, but it's quite punishable =/

As for edgeguarding in general, I'd just drop a bomb or play it safe with projectiles unless I'm feeling risky. I might end up trying to do a Bair chain or throwing some Zairs/Nairs in there too. Ultimately it depends on your opponent and the situation.

I'd like to test it out but I have no time at the moment and I'm fairly confident that someone would get to it before me so ... good luck with this idea =o

 

[G-Dub]

Maybe not just spam... SH nair (on the stage) is a good option for edge-guarding certain characters... but with others, if you try nair, your just gonna get wacked. Toon's edge-guard tactics change from character to character; snake, falco, diddy are some characters im more agressive with edge-guarding. Marth, MK, DDD, G&W just stay the hell away from... Spamming is really the safest option, or at least using a bomb to set up an attack off stage......imo

 

[Thebest1pj]

Yeah I've tried that before and to some extent it works, but I know that Toon has the capability to do so much better than that. Usualy my opponents just have to time their get-up options and this tactic doesn't hinder them at all. We need something better. Tedeth has the most amazing edgeguarding game I've ever seen so I know what it should look like and I know first hand how much a solid edgeguarding game can destroy a stock (or three), the only problem is he uses other characters, so trying to convert his tactics to Toon tactics has been a bit hard. Surely there is someone, prefferably a Toon main (prefferably a pro, but at this point I'll take anything) that can help out here.

It's all a guessing game for sure take for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8ITBnB0gaY amari does not let this man back onstage, which results in a 0 to death(happens at 47). If the person tries to jump back onstage jumping with them and zairing them back off works wonders if they try to airdodge past it just wait a bit an then hit them. The creativity (hyros combo video) SHOWS HOW TO Edgeguard amazingly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDNs8HAJHco please watch.

I usually just throw a bomb up near the ledge run away shbombpull arrow cancel throw the snd bomb to anyone trying to get back onstage that or zair if someone can rool back onstage i follow them and nair them. ill say more later

 

[MJG]

Ledge guarding is something I want to be top notch in my game

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

@shadow: I'm not sure if you know what I'm talking about. The first vid @ 47 doesn't show edgeguarding. I mean, the Falcon doesn't even grab the edge or use any edge options, so technically it's not edgeguarding. (Not to mention that he was really bad.) What that vid showed was gimping really, not edgeguarding in the strict sense that this topic is talking about.

Maybe I just didn't make things clear enough. The situation that we're talking about is that the opponent has grabbed the edge and is now trying to get up onto stage safely. That's it. The question is, what do we do to stop them getting up onto stage safely, prefferably putting them back out off stage or keeping them on the edge to rack up some extra damage. Keeping this in mind, re-read some of my other posts if you need to and you'll all get the picture. Let me know what you think about the situation.

 

[Jaxys]

Few things that crossed my mind:

• Bair
• Dair
• Zair
• Grounded Spin attack
• Bomb drop
• Bomb cancelled Dsmash gimp? Not sure about this one as I know very little about it
  

Not sure if these are handy or not. I'm sure everyone knows I'm a noob so spare me the embarassment if I say something silly. >_>