MJG
Smash Hero
All suggestions are welcomed.
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The Triforce of Toon: A Community Toon Link Guide
- Thread starter Fox Is Openly Deceptive
- Start date
NH Cody
Smash Champion
^ Yeah basically that, everybody has their own creative ideas when it comes to mixups and stuff
don't feel intimidated to post in the TL boards, we don't biteexcept Hyro ^^
don't feel intimidated to post in the TL boards, we don't bite
Jaxys
Smash Cadet
Thanks for the warm words!
Expanding on my points earlier..
Bair has this "sweeping" motion that has decent range below and behind TL. If properly spaced, it should be able to touch whoever you want to hit. Leads to other good stuff as I'm sure you all know :D
Dair, oh Dair. More of a glass-cannon move but I find myself using it quite often, especially when the situation calls for it. Easy damage if your opponent sets you up for it or if you feel particularly risky ^^. Powerful move, can lead to more stuff.
Zair, good option IMO. Goes far without you having to go far yourself. From what I hear, it has good priority and it's able to lead into other damage racking strings or kill moves.
I happen to Zair -> Hyphen Slash a lot, as well as Zair -> Grab. If it looks safe, I'd recommend a Hyphen Slash. High damages can kill, or just to juggle at lower percents. Not sure how useful the grab follow up is as I have no competitive experience at all, though. Try it at your own risk :D
Bomb drop is quite straightforward. Ledge bomb drop it (or fake this to mindgame ^^?) or C4 it near the edge like Twink said. If memory serves, only FIOD and I have commented on it, which is odd because that idea's pretty neat IMO.
Bomb-cancelled Dsmash Gimp. Saw the video demonstrating it ages ago, and I forgot alot of stuff. I'm pretty sure it's in the AT thread but I thought I'd mention it.
Spin attack! One of the very first Edgeguards demonstrated in The Creativity. Not useful in most situations but handy if you opponent is just chilling at the ledge and loses invincibility frames.
Expanding on my points earlier..
Bair has this "sweeping" motion that has decent range below and behind TL. If properly spaced, it should be able to touch whoever you want to hit. Leads to other good stuff as I'm sure you all know :D
Dair, oh Dair. More of a glass-cannon move but I find myself using it quite often, especially when the situation calls for it. Easy damage if your opponent sets you up for it or if you feel particularly risky ^^. Powerful move, can lead to more stuff.
Zair, good option IMO. Goes far without you having to go far yourself. From what I hear, it has good priority and it's able to lead into other damage racking strings or kill moves.
I happen to Zair -> Hyphen Slash a lot, as well as Zair -> Grab. If it looks safe, I'd recommend a Hyphen Slash. High damages can kill, or just to juggle at lower percents. Not sure how useful the grab follow up is as I have no competitive experience at all, though. Try it at your own risk :D
Bomb drop is quite straightforward. Ledge bomb drop it (or fake this to mindgame ^^?) or C4 it near the edge like Twink said. If memory serves, only FIOD and I have commented on it, which is odd because that idea's pretty neat IMO.
Bomb-cancelled Dsmash Gimp. Saw the video demonstrating it ages ago, and I forgot alot of stuff. I'm pretty sure it's in the AT thread but I thought I'd mention it.
Spin attack! One of the very first Edgeguards demonstrated in The Creativity. Not useful in most situations but handy if you opponent is just chilling at the ledge and loses invincibility frames.
G-Dub
Smash Journeyman
There's no set way for tink to edgeguard. In almost every match i watch and play, there's always some nasty projectile spamming and gimping, lots of mix-ups, mind games, airdodge reading, i-bombing, SHDAs...BOMBS....
Basically ninja **** from toon link when he's edge guarding...and dash attack and DTilt work great when an opponent is about to grab the ledge...jus needs some good timing.
Basically ninja **** from toon link when he's edge guarding...and dash attack and DTilt work great when an opponent is about to grab the ledge...jus needs some good timing.
Jaxys
Smash Cadet
Yeah, I agree with this. Different playstyles, stages and characters will call for different ledge guards. All we can really do is to list more and more ways to guard until we bleed ourselves dry (or until someone discovers something epicsauce).
I seem to keep asking and getting the same kind of answer, but don't worry guys, I'm listening this time. If I consistently keep getting the same sort of answer from different people, then it probably is the answer. I think I'll just have to write it up with what I've got along with some conversations I've had with the western Sydney guys.
I had a think about it the other day before I went to a smash meet and tried to come up with different options I could try out while I was playing. From the results, I have to say that F-tilt is a surprisingly good edgeguarding tool. It's almost exactly what I've been looking for. It has a long hitbox duration (to beat invincibility frames) which covers a lot of area (behind, above and infront) and a lot of options (edgehops, double jumps, miss spaced aerials), it hits people that stay on the edge for too long (from harrassment of Bombs/returning Boomerang/Zair) it has deceptive range, it isn't too laggy (so if they use a get-up attack just as you use F-tilt you should be able to shield it in time) if they are on medium to high percents it can kill and even if it doesn't kill, you can easilly rack up extra damage or gimp them because of the angle it hits them out at.
Not unbeatable obviously, but it's a good option which I'm going to start pulling out every now and then when I make a good read. Try it out and see what you think.
I'll try to get round to writing this up soonish.
I had a think about it the other day before I went to a smash meet and tried to come up with different options I could try out while I was playing. From the results, I have to say that F-tilt is a surprisingly good edgeguarding tool. It's almost exactly what I've been looking for. It has a long hitbox duration (to beat invincibility frames) which covers a lot of area (behind, above and infront) and a lot of options (edgehops, double jumps, miss spaced aerials), it hits people that stay on the edge for too long (from harrassment of Bombs/returning Boomerang/Zair) it has deceptive range, it isn't too laggy (so if they use a get-up attack just as you use F-tilt you should be able to shield it in time) if they are on medium to high percents it can kill and even if it doesn't kill, you can easilly rack up extra damage or gimp them because of the angle it hits them out at.
Not unbeatable obviously, but it's a good option which I'm going to start pulling out every now and then when I make a good read. Try it out and see what you think.
I'll try to get round to writing this up soonish.
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
oh you mean like in the video i linked? Cause you know he def stopped him from getting onstage...
What video?
Oh you mean that one with the Falcon? Didn't we go over this? Needs more use of actual edge options? Not just Up-B?
Oh you mean that one with the Falcon? Didn't we go over this? Needs more use of actual edge options? Not just Up-B?
Edgeguarding section is done!
Moving right along.
We are now discussing Spacing.
Spacing..... hmm. What to say? Toon has great spacing tools as I'm sure you're all aware. So we'll be talking about how to keep well spaced I spose. Spacing is hard to explain other than in really simple terms. Can it be taught? Or is it something you need to just develop while playing, something you get a feel for? Can you read about spacing and know what to do and how to do it without having played the character before? Is there anything you could be told that would make spacing easier? Yeah, why not. Well, let's just talk about good spacing for now, what tools you use and how you use them, and we'll see what we have after that.
Moving right along.
We are now discussing Spacing.
Spacing..... hmm. What to say? Toon has great spacing tools as I'm sure you're all aware. So we'll be talking about how to keep well spaced I spose. Spacing is hard to explain other than in really simple terms. Can it be taught? Or is it something you need to just develop while playing, something you get a feel for? Can you read about spacing and know what to do and how to do it without having played the character before? Is there anything you could be told that would make spacing easier? Yeah, why not. Well, let's just talk about good spacing for now, what tools you use and how you use them, and we'll see what we have after that.
G-Dub
Smash Journeyman
ZAir and NAir are the two most obvious spacing tools for tink, and are good Oos options. Retreating NAir should be abused, and as a mix-up, spacing Nair to hit twice is effective and not that punishable. BAir is a good spacing tool, especially at low percents because one BAir can equal 30+%. Spacing upB to recover is suprisingly useful as well as the last hit is slow to come out and will occationally thwart a ledge grab, or tink could make it to the stage even with an opponent's ledge grab. Spacing takes time with every character, especially toon link. Learning the range and speed of ZAir helps tremendously, and should be used for more long-ranged spacing. NAir is the same, just slightly shorter range.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
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I would say that Bair is a better spacing tool than Nair since we can wall two bairs together in a short hop. Also, the range on bair covers Toon Link's entire back since the sword goes in a scooping motion for almost the full 180 degrees, compared to Nair which is only a quick horizontal slice that points slightly downward, so it's pretty good at keeping people away from your own space.
I'm pretty sure that Zair would be our obvious other spacing move for other obvious reasons. Reatreating Zair if you want to safely land a hit, stationary and approaching Zair for poking and/or clearing the space directly in front of you as you land.
I'm pretty sure that Zair would be our obvious other spacing move for other obvious reasons. Reatreating Zair if you want to safely land a hit, stationary and approaching Zair for poking and/or clearing the space directly in front of you as you land.
Ok, that's a start. How about that range you need to be at from your opponent when spamming, that mid range distance, you need to be well spaced for spam as well. How do you keep them at that range? What happens when you run out of space, say you are slowly forced to the edge of the stage because you are trying to keep them at a certain distance?
When it comes to good spacing, one thing I often hear is hitting at the tip of your attacks, and I'd say this is true for all characters including Toon, but the flip side to the spacing coin is left out of this sort of discussion. So far it's all been about spacing offensively, but what about good spacing defensively? What about that perfect spacing so you don't get hit? Verses Marth for example, you want to be well spaced so you are out of tipper range, or how about a Snake trying to U-tilt you. That's spacing defensively. So how do you keep well spaced defensively? How do you keep out of their range?
I'd say that Brawl is much more about good spacing then things like tech skill, but that's just me. So I'd like to see this get some more input.
When it comes to good spacing, one thing I often hear is hitting at the tip of your attacks, and I'd say this is true for all characters including Toon, but the flip side to the spacing coin is left out of this sort of discussion. So far it's all been about spacing offensively, but what about good spacing defensively? What about that perfect spacing so you don't get hit? Verses Marth for example, you want to be well spaced so you are out of tipper range, or how about a Snake trying to U-tilt you. That's spacing defensively. So how do you keep well spaced defensively? How do you keep out of their range?
I'd say that Brawl is much more about good spacing then things like tech skill, but that's just me. So I'd like to see this get some more input.
G-Dub
Smash Journeyman
The projectile spam should limit and disrupt your opponent's abillity to move around the stage, and should give toon link time to think about his next move, and should allow him to move about the stage freely, taking as little damage as possible. This is obviously easier said than done. Tink is fast enough to get away from most of the cast with relative ease, retreat Oos NAir when they get in, and get some seperation. Staying at mid-range isnt all that difficult if you keep the spam going, and mix the camping up; it's really just a matter of learning all the AT's, and using them to speed up the play of your toon link, and staying out of your opponant's range the entire match, and learning the true range of your opponent's character.
This might be a little broad, but i think spacing, and "defensive spacing" just comes with time and experience.
This might be a little broad, but i think spacing, and "defensive spacing" just comes with time and experience.
It is quite a broad topic so I can understand a reluctance to comment on it, but your post covered a lot of it quite well. I can tell you put thought into it as well so it's much appreciated.
If it makes it any easier to talk about, then what I'll be writing about, hopefully, is Toon's spacing mixed with a little general spacing theory. So if anyone has read any good spacing threads then just linking them is input.
I go back to College in less than a week and I'll have very little time for this once again, so if we can get this one done before then that'd be great. If not, then it'll just get done much later.
If it makes it any easier to talk about, then what I'll be writing about, hopefully, is Toon's spacing mixed with a little general spacing theory. So if anyone has read any good spacing threads then just linking them is input.
I go back to College in less than a week and I'll have very little time for this once again, so if we can get this one done before then that'd be great. If not, then it'll just get done much later.
MJG
Smash Hero
Use your aerials to keep your opponents from hitting you rather than for you to try and hit them.
Retreating Zair, Nair, Bair.
Retreating Zair, Nair, Bair.
Digital Limit
Smash Cadet
Two questions:
SHDA seems incredibly hard to do as getting my finger from Y to B with such haste involves more concentration than I can typically muster outside of training mode. Am I doing something wrong? It seems as if I need my first arrow to come out well before the peak of my jump to get the second arrow to quick draw.
Also, I can't for the life of me figure out how to ibomb. Where in time are my button presses supposed to be, exactly? I air dodge (L+direction) and then hit A while carrying a bomb; that's the gist of it, right? I've tried hitting A at variations in time, but I either throw the bomb, do a zair, or air dodge without dropping it. Baffled.
SHDA seems incredibly hard to do as getting my finger from Y to B with such haste involves more concentration than I can typically muster outside of training mode. Am I doing something wrong? It seems as if I need my first arrow to come out well before the peak of my jump to get the second arrow to quick draw.
Also, I can't for the life of me figure out how to ibomb. Where in time are my button presses supposed to be, exactly? I air dodge (L+direction) and then hit A while carrying a bomb; that's the gist of it, right? I've tried hitting A at variations in time, but I either throw the bomb, do a zair, or air dodge without dropping it. Baffled.
MJG
Smash Hero
SHDA comes natural. Just keep practicing with it. Then you will be able to transfer that over into matches and then it will become natural in game play.
I go from Y to B as well. Just do what I stated above^
In regards to ibombing, you don't need to hit a direction in order to ibomb. Just airdodge and hit A at the same time.
I go from Y to B as well. Just do what I stated above^
In regards to ibombing, you don't need to hit a direction in order to ibomb. Just airdodge and hit A at the same time.
Digital Limit
Smash Cadet
Oh man, I've got ibombing down, now!
Thanks Ensis, not sure why I thought I had to hit a direction, and actually maybe that's why I'm so bad at air dodging, haha.
Man, ibomb juggling characters until like 300% is so satisfying. I feel like I can see the Matrix, now
*throws his arms backward, dodging bombs in slow motion*
Thanks Ensis, not sure why I thought I had to hit a direction, and actually maybe that's why I'm so bad at air dodging, haha.
Man, ibomb juggling characters until like 300% is so satisfying. I feel like I can see the Matrix, now
*throws his arms backward, dodging bombs in slow motion*
Tsunayoshi
Smash Apprentice
is this community tl cv only for the USA tl com or can EU tl mainer attend too?
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
the tl community vid i dead and wont happen cause no one cares about it anymore.
Tsunayoshi
Smash Apprentice
oh this sucks but ok thx ^^
shutup fat albert
D Who?
Smash Journeyman
Jab 1 ---> Bair ---> footstool Dair= legit............
Look's like I'm on holidays. I'm interested in getting things moving in here again. What? You thought I'd given up on this?
I got stuff done and the spacing section is all written up. Which means we're moving on to the Spamming section. Who wants to get a bit of life into these boards? Who just wants to help me out? Anyway, I've been looking forward to this section and I bet you have been too >_>.
Before you post, I know you're all eager >_>, but I'd appreciate it if you read the below stuff so we can keep the feedback on track.
For the spamming section, the kind of discussion I'm looking for isn't going to be a list of set spam inputs that you like to do or that is amazing or anything. These things can be worked out by themselves and aren't useful to be doing in a real game situation when you need to be able to adapt not do that last quickdraw because it's part of your spam combo. So if we can avoid this mentality then that'd be great. We're also going to avoid a description of each separate projectile. This has been done already and I'll probably just get the reader to go over what has been written previously before they read the spamming section. What I envision for the spamming section is a little more natural, a little more real in game kind of helpful discussion. There’ll be a bit of general spamming theory, but for the most part, I want a holistic look at Toon's projectiles. The spamming section follows the spacing section for a reason, so keep this in mind (I wrote a little on projectile spacing already). I want feedback that is focused on the most effective way to spam and use spam. The kind of things that go through your head when you spam; what you're looking for, what you're trying to achieve. Limiting options, predictions, projectile traps, projectile combo starters, projectiles used to run, to approach. How do you use spam, not how do you spam.
I got stuff done and the spacing section is all written up. Which means we're moving on to the Spamming section. Who wants to get a bit of life into these boards? Who just wants to help me out? Anyway, I've been looking forward to this section and I bet you have been too >_>.
Before you post, I know you're all eager >_>, but I'd appreciate it if you read the below stuff so we can keep the feedback on track.
For the spamming section, the kind of discussion I'm looking for isn't going to be a list of set spam inputs that you like to do or that is amazing or anything. These things can be worked out by themselves and aren't useful to be doing in a real game situation when you need to be able to adapt not do that last quickdraw because it's part of your spam combo. So if we can avoid this mentality then that'd be great. We're also going to avoid a description of each separate projectile. This has been done already and I'll probably just get the reader to go over what has been written previously before they read the spamming section. What I envision for the spamming section is a little more natural, a little more real in game kind of helpful discussion. There’ll be a bit of general spamming theory, but for the most part, I want a holistic look at Toon's projectiles. The spamming section follows the spacing section for a reason, so keep this in mind (I wrote a little on projectile spacing already). I want feedback that is focused on the most effective way to spam and use spam. The kind of things that go through your head when you spam; what you're looking for, what you're trying to achieve. Limiting options, predictions, projectile traps, projectile combo starters, projectiles used to run, to approach. How do you use spam, not how do you spam.
Fragger
Smash Journeyman
So I'm trying to learn how to really play Toon Link(Kinda of obvious), and DeLux is teaching me the general competitive stuff. For toon link he just really showed me the "Flow Chart"(?) style of play where you camp your a** off and just spam projectiles till 125% and U-Smash. I've watched videos of alot of you guys play and it seems similar to what he showed me. He says eventually he's gonna have me meet MJG and practice with him. Im just wanted to know what things I should learn and what moves I should really use alot besides bombs, and projectiles. Also wanted to introduce my self to the TL community but you know, beside the point lol.
Robfox
Smash Lord
^^^^^.........I thought we were suppose to spam until we find an opening 0__o lol
Bair & air up B has like really good knockback to.
Bair & air up B has like really good knockback to.
MJG
Smash Hero
Fragger
Smash Journeyman
Glad to be here. But on the spamming part, I keep spamming projectile and watch what they do and find their tendencies, wait until they mess up because I predicted what their doing and U-smash like a boss. Sometimes it takes a while, sometimes it doesnt, you have to be patient. Though when their at kill %'s I let up a little bit I guess to purposefully let them get close.
Hello Toon Link boards, I'm new to the board, but not to Toon. I've been playing for about 2 years, but mainly on Gamebattles.com. I always watch youtube videos of toons play, but I try to stay original. Id say about 75% of the time i'm original. (not saying I don't use the same tricks as everyone, but I use them in a different style) anywho, i've got a new barrier wall thing I made up that you guys probaley know about from pure playing all the time. it is: when you hit someone off the map and they go staright in front of you (best with ftilt) , you do a short drop bomb so where it is lying on the ground, and then you do SHDA ( creating a barrier ) when your opponent is about to recover grab the bomb and do an iBomb or just throw it straight down. and then proceed to do whatever you need to ensure your opponent dosent recover. You guys probaley have already done things like this, but if you have never heard of it tell me whatcha think? I would go to tournaments, but im only 13, my brother cant drive yet, and even having the thought of interacting with people that dont go to my school or i know, etc. scares my parents. they would probaley flip out if they knew i played GB and got registered here.
@Fragger-- I see your a new TL main? I would love to train with you sometime (TL dittos ftw) but im currently grounded and will not get my stuff back for 2 - 3 weeks. but hey, lots of practice can only get anyone better.
Sorry for this long paragraph but I felt like I had a lot to say. Anyway, im glad I joined this place and I will be super active. ToonFTW!~
Edit - Sorry to sound a bit cocky, I'm not the best, I just know all the names and like discussing these kinds of things. . . Didnt mean to carry myself as being cocky.
@Fragger-- I see your a new TL main? I would love to train with you sometime (TL dittos ftw) but im currently grounded and will not get my stuff back for 2 - 3 weeks. but hey, lots of practice can only get anyone better.
Sorry for this long paragraph but I felt like I had a lot to say. Anyway, im glad I joined this place and I will be super active. ToonFTW!~
Edit - Sorry to sound a bit cocky, I'm not the best, I just know all the names and like discussing these kinds of things. . . Didnt mean to carry myself as being cocky.
Baskerville
That's a paddlin'
Can anyone recommend any easy button layouts for TL's Glide Toss?
Fragger
Smash Journeyman
TL does not have a glide toss....
He does tho have a jump-cancelled toss. I have a really weird control setup so I wouldnt be much help.
MJG
Smash Hero
I slide my thumb from "Y" to "A"
Dang, there hasn't been a post in here since last month...
So let's get it going again! :D Back to spamming. One thing I love to do when spamming is just throw out a boomerang. It makes it so much easier to hit the opponent, as suddenly they can't get out of the way because of the boomerang. So basically, boomerang traps are really helpful to ensure some hits, as just throwing around projectiles randomly doesn't work. (trust me, I know)
So let's get it going again! :D Back to spamming. One thing I love to do when spamming is just throw out a boomerang. It makes it so much easier to hit the opponent, as suddenly they can't get out of the way because of the boomerang. So basically, boomerang traps are really helpful to ensure some hits, as just throwing around projectiles randomly doesn't work. (trust me, I know)
Some projectiles combinaisons I use :
SH Bomb Pull › DJ Bomb Throw › shoot Arrow twice
FH buffered Boomerang angled down › Z-air
FH Bomb Pull › Fast-fall InvinciBomb › SH or FH aerial(and you can pick up the bomb again too)
While holding a bomb
FH buffered boomerang angled down › Bomb Throw(preferably a soft throw) › Quick Draw.
Otherwise, just a tip : when holding a bomb, unless the situation forces you to throw your bomb immediately, just hold it and throw projectiles/do stuff with it, it blows the opponent's mind, make your spam smarter/faster or can save you sometimes.
I'm out of ideas now, I'll write some more later
SH Bomb Pull › DJ Bomb Throw › shoot Arrow twice
FH buffered Boomerang angled down › Z-air
FH Bomb Pull › Fast-fall InvinciBomb › SH or FH aerial(and you can pick up the bomb again too)
While holding a bomb
FH buffered boomerang angled down › Bomb Throw(preferably a soft throw) › Quick Draw.
Otherwise, just a tip : when holding a bomb, unless the situation forces you to throw your bomb immediately, just hold it and throw projectiles/do stuff with it, it blows the opponent's mind, make your spam smarter/faster or can save you sometimes.
I'm out of ideas now, I'll write some more later
Baskerville
That's a paddlin'
I just usually go aggro all the way (which can screw me over a couple times)
I usually play fairly carefully when spamming. When spamming I basically just jump around and chuck bombs and boomerangs at my opponent. Since your projectiles don't do that much, I don't want to take hits while Im doing it. Plus, it you get hit, it can kill your momentum and advantage. If you're spamming and seem untouchable, it can get very frustrating for the opponent, making them not play as well. If defensive spamming doesnt work, I go in with my sword.
Well if this is going to get started again, I'll quickly re-post what kind of discussion I'm looking for, and if I get enough responses, I will update and we will move it along.
So for example, what Pippy said about using the boomerang to limit options was a great input. What he said was not just what he was doing, but why he did it. He was thinking about how he used his spam. Don't worry if you're still not too sure what the fine line is I'm getting at, just contribute what you can and at least try to tailor it to this line of thought.
Fragger
Smash Journeyman
Boomerangs are good for setting up kills and combo into other projectiles well. Zair is also good for comboing from projectiles. Boomerangs can force someone into shield, which could lead into a grab, and if they spotdodge it you can run past them and pivot grab. Bombs do this as well, bombs put people in shield and you can pivot grab so that the bomb does not interrupt the grab.