Swann
Smash Journeyman
I think Ivy has the worst shield in the game right now.
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The Teachy TV: Ivysaur Video and Critique Thread
- Thread starter Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir
- Start date
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Mmm hmm
Let's not talk about getting shield stabbed
Let's not talk about getting shield stabbed
SuruStorm
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2014
- Messages
- 38
As a general rule when edgeguarding other tethers, don't think too hard about it and just grab ledge. Wait for them to actually land onstage, then dair -> uair (or vine whip if you can't reach with uair). Kills off the top and gets you a ton of solar beam charge in the process, and is difficult to escape unless they edge cancel or you mistakenly get up as they strafe back to the ledge.
I did a quick lab session today, nothing consequential was found (I mostly spent my time looking for uses for run shield and dash shield, as I've just been told today that they were different lmao), but I did put to video some things that I've been wanting to record for quite some time now :
Hope y'all enjoy :V
btw dash shield and run shield are different, omfg did you guys know ? <- further proof that TreK is stupid.
Edit : new JZ videos, rejoice !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8-I7HN9KBU vs Beach (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRgwime70KA vs ZTD|Solharath (Sanic)
Probably more coming soon on the ZeroToDeath channel
Edit 2 : here they are !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lgqI_MBL1k vs LMT (Luigi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb_WFFQcCPk vs Lain (Marth, Fox) WF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BFslBLqUiE vs Lain (Fox) GF
Edit : new JZ videos, rejoice !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8-I7HN9KBU vs Beach (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRgwime70KA vs ZTD|Solharath (Sanic)
Probably more coming soon on the ZeroToDeath channel
Edit 2 : here they are !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lgqI_MBL1k vs LMT (Luigi)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb_WFFQcCPk vs Lain (Marth, Fox) WF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BFslBLqUiE vs Lain (Fox) GF
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http://youtu.be/L0MZIj_KGQ4
Anyone wanna tell me why I suck so much at Marth ?
Anyone wanna tell me why I suck so much at Marth ?
Swann
Smash Journeyman
You played on FD and yet I saw exactly zero seed bombs
You DI'd toward marth when you got faired
You didn't wiggle->airdodge out of fthrow chains
You approached or moved without respecting marth (19:40-:43 for a particularly obvious example)
You kept doing the same dash away->toward movement pattern before you committed to something
You weren't able to keep stage control and continually let marth take space
You didn't capitalize on his techroll away habit
You didn't capitalize on his aerial timings (he always SH late aerial in neutral; falling aerials; fairs after getting hit if under pressure)
You are either too slow or too greedy on your punish followups (getting faired after popping him up with dtilt)
Mostly I think you defeated yourself
EDIT: interestingly, I think after your first big combo you let your guard down
You DI'd toward marth when you got faired
You didn't wiggle->airdodge out of fthrow chains
You approached or moved without respecting marth (19:40-:43 for a particularly obvious example)
You kept doing the same dash away->toward movement pattern before you committed to something
You weren't able to keep stage control and continually let marth take space
You didn't capitalize on his techroll away habit
You didn't capitalize on his aerial timings (he always SH late aerial in neutral; falling aerials; fairs after getting hit if under pressure)
You are either too slow or too greedy on your punish followups (getting faired after popping him up with dtilt)
Mostly I think you defeated yourself
EDIT: interestingly, I think after your first big combo you let your guard down
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>You played on FD and yet I saw exactly zero seed bombs
Hmm, I figured my main problem would be how to keep Marth out of my zone, and doing a 1 second long move that hits 2 seconds later wouldn't really help in that area. Was I wrong ?
>You DI'd toward marth when you got faired
Yeah DIing against Marth is just so weird. All of his moves are faster than you can react and it's critical to DI fsmashes and utilts in, and everything else out. I try to mix it up but apparently it doesn't work lmao
>You didn't wiggle->airdodge out of fthrow chains
I tested this a bit because I didn't even know this was possible. The only times it's not possible to do this is below 11%, or if you DI down+away. Thing is, I usually go for the down+away DI : it sets up a tipper fsmash, so I eat 20% and an edgeguard, but at least the combo ends.
What DI do you go to ? Just away ? In ?
>You approached or moved without respecting marth (19:40-:43 for a particularly obvious example)
That was an attempt at an usmash to counter the incoming obvious fair, I was just too slow and got hit before the hitbox was out. Usmash, dtilt and bair are litterally the only moves I know how to beat Marth's fair with.
>You kept doing the same dash away->toward movement pattern before you committed to something
>You weren't able to keep stage control and continually let marth take space
Yeah that's kind of a problem. I'll work on that. I planned to use bairs and ftilts to push him out of the center of stage but apparently I forgot everything about my battle plan as soon as I started getting bopped :/
>You didn't capitalize on his techroll away habit
Proof n°55214 that TreK is stoopid.
>You didn't capitalize on his aerial timings (he always SH late aerial in neutral; falling aerials; fairs after getting hit if under pressure)
It's so damn haaard x)
Also I'm stoopid.
>You are either too slow or too greedy on your punish followups (getting faired after popping him up with dtilt)
Yeah I have a really hard time comboing Marth for some reason. It feels like he receives less hitstun than anyone else, when I know for a fact that it's bull. So I go for slow followups when I should hurry the f up and get things done...
>Mostly I think you defeated yourself
Told ya I sucked at Marth.
>EDIT: interestingly, I think after your first big combo you let your guard down
Yeah, I felt like I could take it after that opener, but that was just Leon adjusting to his character. When he was warmed up I was too cocky to adapt...
Hmm, I figured my main problem would be how to keep Marth out of my zone, and doing a 1 second long move that hits 2 seconds later wouldn't really help in that area. Was I wrong ?
>You DI'd toward marth when you got faired
Yeah DIing against Marth is just so weird. All of his moves are faster than you can react and it's critical to DI fsmashes and utilts in, and everything else out. I try to mix it up but apparently it doesn't work lmao
>You didn't wiggle->airdodge out of fthrow chains
I tested this a bit because I didn't even know this was possible. The only times it's not possible to do this is below 11%, or if you DI down+away. Thing is, I usually go for the down+away DI : it sets up a tipper fsmash, so I eat 20% and an edgeguard, but at least the combo ends.
What DI do you go to ? Just away ? In ?
>You approached or moved without respecting marth (19:40-:43 for a particularly obvious example)
That was an attempt at an usmash to counter the incoming obvious fair, I was just too slow and got hit before the hitbox was out. Usmash, dtilt and bair are litterally the only moves I know how to beat Marth's fair with.
>You kept doing the same dash away->toward movement pattern before you committed to something
>You weren't able to keep stage control and continually let marth take space
Yeah that's kind of a problem. I'll work on that. I planned to use bairs and ftilts to push him out of the center of stage but apparently I forgot everything about my battle plan as soon as I started getting bopped :/
>You didn't capitalize on his techroll away habit
Proof n°55214 that TreK is stoopid.
>You didn't capitalize on his aerial timings (he always SH late aerial in neutral; falling aerials; fairs after getting hit if under pressure)
It's so damn haaard x)
Also I'm stoopid.
>You are either too slow or too greedy on your punish followups (getting faired after popping him up with dtilt)
Yeah I have a really hard time comboing Marth for some reason. It feels like he receives less hitstun than anyone else, when I know for a fact that it's bull. So I go for slow followups when I should hurry the f up and get things done...
>Mostly I think you defeated yourself
Told ya I sucked at Marth.
>EDIT: interestingly, I think after your first big combo you let your guard down
Yeah, I felt like I could take it after that opener, but that was just Leon adjusting to his character. When he was warmed up I was too cocky to adapt...
Swann
Smash Journeyman
I'm on my phone but I'll post my thoughts later today. Thanks for your post, I wanted to explain myself, but I thought it might be more productive if you had the chance to think about it on your own first.
--
Because Marth's movement is so good, we should be using every tool at our disposal to limit him. Leaf can be clanked by a sufficiently proficient opponent, but seed is very difficult to counter directly.
I use seeds in neutral at the spacing at or greater than... I guess the best way to describe it would be if I threw a leaf and neither of us moved, it still wouldn't hit Marth. I throw a seed forward and move into the space it will land. I may throw the seed up or forward and stand my ground or heal. It depends on how I feel about the situation, the Marth's movement patterns, and his reaction to previous seed bombs.
I'm also just a huge believer in seed bombs and I think nobody really understands or wants to believe how deceptively amazing they can be.
Get grabbed at 0, wow Marth is lame, DI down+away for two fthrows in case he misses his grab attempt, buffer shield+roll/spotdodge in that case. On third grab, DI away, immediately after throw animation wiggle stick between "toward Marth" and "up+toward Marth" and either attempt to properly time an airdodoge or more realistically just ****ing mash on L/R. Immediately FF if airdodge comes out, good job. If no airdodge and/or Marth regrabs, repeat. If Marth fairs at any point, move to DI up+away because the worst that will happen is another fair or neutral b (in contrast, we'd get daired--wow Marth is lame--or maybe fsmashed if we DI down+away and we're still low to the ground). If Marth fsmashes after the throw, well I was already holding up+toward so double jump seed bomb and drift back down. If Marth dthrows at any point wow Marth is lame brace for the fsmash. If at any point during fthrow stuff you get into a situation where you will be thrown offstage, if there is room for marth to WD fsmash then DI up+away, if not DI down+away to avoid dair. Wow this character is stupid, that was so free oh my gosh the M stands for Marth. WTF.
When mashing out airdodge I either wiggle between toward/up+toward OR between toward+away (like DDing). IDK it just depends. Try to airdodge parallel with the ground if possible, so there's less recovery time.
But usmash definitely would have won that situation. You can also cross Marth up when in this situation (he's coming down from high up somewhere) by timing a SH toward->waveland through, dashing behind with proper timing, or sometimes just doing a cheesy roll behind. Stuff to think about, since being in front where his fair is... sometimes that's just not something you want to deal with.
--
So my experience is that FD and stages with sparse platform coverage make the most useful stages with respect to seed bomb. Seed bomb lets us "check" an area of space and heavily punishes disrespectful strats like run in->grab or dash attack. In some stages, seed bomb's usefulness is limited because of platforms (BF) or because there isn't always room to commit to it safely (GHZ, FoD), but on FD, much of those restrictions are lifted. Against Marth in particular, seed bomb means:
- Marth must rein in his dash dance game
- If spaced correctly, we get a chance to heal 1-2%, which is useful because this eventually
- Forces Marth to approach (or at least, walk forward)
- Marth cannot bully his way in (disrespect strats)
- If thrown from specific camera angles, Marth must guess which way we threw the seed bomb and must adjust his movement according to his guess
Because Marth's movement is so good, we should be using every tool at our disposal to limit him. Leaf can be clanked by a sufficiently proficient opponent, but seed is very difficult to counter directly.
I use seeds in neutral at the spacing at or greater than... I guess the best way to describe it would be if I threw a leaf and neither of us moved, it still wouldn't hit Marth. I throw a seed forward and move into the space it will land. I may throw the seed up or forward and stand my ground or heal. It depends on how I feel about the situation, the Marth's movement patterns, and his reaction to previous seed bombs.
I'm also just a huge believer in seed bombs and I think nobody really understands or wants to believe how deceptively amazing they can be.
So I didn't know the percentages (I've noticed that the first two throws seem inescapable but I have decent luck after that), but I generally think something along these lines.
Get grabbed at 0, wow Marth is lame, DI down+away for two fthrows in case he misses his grab attempt, buffer shield+roll/spotdodge in that case. On third grab, DI away, immediately after throw animation wiggle stick between "toward Marth" and "up+toward Marth" and either attempt to properly time an airdodoge or more realistically just ****ing mash on L/R. Immediately FF if airdodge comes out, good job. If no airdodge and/or Marth regrabs, repeat. If Marth fairs at any point, move to DI up+away because the worst that will happen is another fair or neutral b (in contrast, we'd get daired--wow Marth is lame--or maybe fsmashed if we DI down+away and we're still low to the ground). If Marth fsmashes after the throw, well I was already holding up+toward so double jump seed bomb and drift back down. If Marth dthrows at any point wow Marth is lame brace for the fsmash. If at any point during fthrow stuff you get into a situation where you will be thrown offstage, if there is room for marth to WD fsmash then DI up+away, if not DI down+away to avoid dair. Wow this character is stupid, that was so free oh my gosh the M stands for Marth. WTF.
When mashing out airdodge I either wiggle between toward/up+toward OR between toward+away (like DDing). IDK it just depends. Try to airdodge parallel with the ground if possible, so there's less recovery time.
Okay, that makes sense. I personally would have tried to position myself so I could put out a dtilt hitbox where he would land, which would stymie WL attempts AND aerial commitments. This strategy is very good in general and you should probably be trying to implement it all the time, especially against people who like to be in the air.
But usmash definitely would have won that situation. You can also cross Marth up when in this situation (he's coming down from high up somewhere) by timing a SH toward->waveland through, dashing behind with proper timing, or sometimes just doing a cheesy roll behind. Stuff to think about, since being in front where his fair is... sometimes that's just not something you want to deal with.
I'd really think about this and why it's not good against Marth even though it's amazing against some other characters (big guys or guys without burst movement especially).
Yeah that just happens sometimes, it's OK. Don't dwell on it, that's something you can work on every time you fight Marth! Make sure you DO dwell on your gameplan so you are less likely to forget about it. I still forget about my gameplan fairly often and I think it's something everyone struggles with to some extent.
Yeah it really it difficult but it's possible!! Sometimes you don't have time to position yourself correctly and you just have to settle with putting him in an uncomfortable situation (seed bomb!), but other times you can definitely do stuff like run up->shield->nair, perfect tipper fair, WD back fsmash, preemptive bair, empty hop->WL ftilt/dtilt, or run behind pivot grab (risky but oh so nice when it works).
Be confident. As soon as you do that dtilt you should be priming yourself to do the followup you want. Make sure you can act out of dtilt on hit confirms on the first possible frame. This might be something we need to test because I am PRETTY sure that dtilt is always a guaranteed followup but it might not be at all percents?
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Not sure I've managed to process all of that already, next tourney is only tomorrow... Hmm, I think I'll go DK this time and tryhard as I've never tryharded in friendlies so that next time I can perhaps go Ivy instead.
(this is also my first tourney since November where there's a chance I might lose to characters that do not include Marth. There's a Ike and a Sonic player who are likely to give me a run for my money)
(this is also my first tourney since November where there's a chance I might lose to characters that do not include Marth. There's a Ike and a Sonic player who are likely to give me a run for my money)
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Steel Kangaroo
Smash Ace
Okay so this Thursday I got pretty far (top 8) in a 52 person bracket. As always, I played way better off stream than on, but I have 2 matches recorded that I want to post up here. Anything good or bad that sticks out to you, please let me know.
http://youtu.be/wgXIsiWlZrk vs Reyn Time (Diddy, Sonic)
http://youtu.be/dT1mZCpJsCw vs Twisty (Wario)
I think my biggest issue in the last game was not knowing how to DI Wario's combos. By the time I realized I had to DI out, the fart would come and I'd be DIing the wrong way.
EDIT
New video from a different tournament. Zelda vs Ivy is such a slow and patient matchup but it's really quite fun. We can beat out a lot of Din's Fire stuff with disjoints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0N4UnedEO0 vs Riot (Zelda)
http://youtu.be/wgXIsiWlZrk vs Reyn Time (Diddy, Sonic)
http://youtu.be/dT1mZCpJsCw vs Twisty (Wario)
I think my biggest issue in the last game was not knowing how to DI Wario's combos. By the time I realized I had to DI out, the fart would come and I'd be DIing the wrong way.
EDIT
New video from a different tournament. Zelda vs Ivy is such a slow and patient matchup but it's really quite fun. We can beat out a lot of Din's Fire stuff with disjoints.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0N4UnedEO0 vs Riot (Zelda)
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Looking for advice and stuff =3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_VtOUmxOPY vs S_F3 (Ike)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbyTPJhAI7I vs Zefklop (Charizard)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FCicl8ctpo vs Satanpuuuu (Sonic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OA4Xbu52zQ vs Zefklop (Charizard)
That second set vs Zefklop is my new favorite set of myself btw. Everything goes the way I planned except for like 2 SDs and it feels so good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_VtOUmxOPY vs S_F3 (Ike)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbyTPJhAI7I vs Zefklop (Charizard)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FCicl8ctpo vs Satanpuuuu (Sonic)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OA4Xbu52zQ vs Zefklop (Charizard)
That second set vs Zefklop is my new favorite set of myself btw. Everything goes the way I planned except for like 2 SDs and it feels so good
Steel Kangaroo
Smash Ace
Really like how you baited Zefklop on your first kill in the second set...something I need to try to do more. A lot of times you got for fullhop fair -> bair and I'm curious whether you think uair would be a good option to try instead of bair. I'm also curious why you didn't ban BF against charizard? Personally I hate that stage against combo heavy characters bc I feel like the platforms set them up for so many tech chase opportunity. Also I think in general vs Charizard you could use more seed bombs to keep them grounded...every time you used it it worked really well! (Esp the kill in game 2) I think in game 3 you could have used other options from ledge...he kept up the pressure on ledge and you never elected to use ledge jump-> nair which gives you some invincibility or to ledgejump onto the upper platform. Loved the RL -> dsmash game 3. One thing that I think would help overall is sometimes going from your rushdown style to just playing super patient and walling charizard out. Can really mess w peoples heads. Esp characters that have to approach like zard. Needs more dthrow against zard also, sets up for so much. In game 4 first stock you tried for fair-> uair when you were both offstage...I think seed bomb in that situation is better for like 8 reasons lol.
Against Sonic...you keep approaching him, mostly with fair, and to be honest I see no reason to ever try to approach Sonic. They can DD bait us too well and we aren't fast enough to catch them with stuff...I think you played better this set when you were walling with bair/dtilt and setting up for kills w uair rather than trying to rushdown. 4:18 - 4:25 is IMO how you should play vs Sonic the whole time. Note that as soon as he's near edge and you go for a nair towards him, you get punished. If you just stayed put and bair'd on reaction to him approaching, he would be screwed.
To be honest you played really well in these matches though and I would say the main thing is examine your rushdown style and adjust to certain matchups/play patient a little more sometimes. There's not too much I can suggest to change...
Ok now do my vids
Yeah I have no idea why I kept going for bair after fair when a DJ nair, DJ uair or down B would've been better. Bair ends combos, it doesn't extend them, there's really no reason to go for that move during a combo haha. As a rule of thumb, I try to follow PPMD's teachings, which say something along the lines of "every single time you win the neutral game, you should convert into either a kill, or at least a 50% combo plus positional advantage".
I actually very much like BF against Charizard. I played with *Zen all the time back in 3.02, and that guy is one of the 2-3 best Charizards on the planet, and as it turns out he's known for his deadly juggles into star KOs and his absolutely perfect shield drop game. So I kinda had to learn how to work around those things, and I truly think that if you play it right, by shooting leaves under platforms to stop Charizard from touching the floor, and respect his area while still being able to punish him every time he lands, Ivy can get a better use of platforms than Charizard.
In example, that usmash wasn't really a bait, I expected him to land on the platform : usmash covers about 50% of the battlefield platform and that's one of the ways I regularly use it. But he didn't respect my anti-platform game and tried to get to the floor quickly, which resulted in him getting hit by the sweetspot instead. We take those, haha.
The RL-dsmash game 3 was such a randomly good decision. I usually go for an fsmash if I need to convert a RL into a kill, it's handier because you can do it out of a dash and not just a run. But here I was a bit late on my punish, an fsmash would've failed miserably but a dsmash would've been good, so I went "eh, why not". I usually never use dsmash because it can be CCed into an instant techroll at pretty much any percentage, but this was Lylat... The RL carried him just slightly over the slant, so I hit him while he was airborne. So yeah, happy circumstances, mostly =P
But idk if I'd recommend it. I know it's Charizard, he's heavy and has a godlike recovery, but not killing at 120% on a terrible DI is meh. Maybe the center of the smash hits harder idk I don't use that move a lot.
I used to do RL-dsmash quite a bit in 2.6b though, so here's something you might want to know about it if you want to implement it in your game : dsmash has a lot of range and is fast, so you might actually hit the victim before the last hit of the razor leaf and it will save them. So when you RL-dsmash, make sure you consider charging it !
I don't rushdown as much usually but I noticed that guy was overly reliant on his shield and didn't know I have no fear for those apparently. Ivy is weak to running shields but he kept on using dashing and standing shields, which I can just outspace or nair.
Against those other characters it's a different story though.
Well the thing is, Sonic doesn't have a single ground move that beats razor leaf, so he's forced to approach Ivy from the air as long as RL is out, but he doesn't have a single aerial he can shffl or a special that goes up then down really fast, so hitting something that's right next to the razor leaf is pretty difficult for him. Therefore, by dashing right after I RL, I essentially cut all of HIS approaches while gaining stage control. As far as I'm concerned, it's not really approaching even if I'm going forward haha, my goal is mostly to push him to a ledge where he won't be able to DD and then I'll be able to actually approach him.
Dash dancing and baiting him with a bair is fine and yes Ivy can indeed wall out Sonic pretty well, but bair doesn't really lead into anything significantly rewarding unless he's at 0% and forgets to CC, or from 80-90% onwards (and then you try to convert into an edgeguard), or next to a ledge.
I've also found that most of Sonic's punish game consists in waiting for the opponent to toss out his poke and punishing him for it with his speed, so Sonic players are likely to be extremely good at punishing you for trying to hold position with your bair. You can see him punish a few of my shffl bairs no matter if I'm approaching, retreating or doing it in place, that's exactly what I'm talking about. So even if Ivy can wall Sonic out, eh, I felt like taking him to less comfortable situations by putting some pressure of my own.
When I approach with a fair or nair it's actually me attempting (but failing) to mix up my game because there are still a couple answers to an obvious RL-dash in like doing a down B charge into DJ cancel, which lets him jump faaar away : it doesn't let him punish me, but it inverts stage positions and makes me lose the stage control I was trying to gain by doing this maneuver. I'm now close to the ledge and he's in the center of stage, which is bad.
haha I'll tryOk now do my vids
Well firstly, omfg you can taunt from the respawn platform ? YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SHOWN ME THAT I'M GOING TO DO IT EVERY STOCK FOREVER NOW
Vs Reyn Time :
The first thing I notice is that you seem to shield pretty often, and though you don't really get punished for it, I don't see you punishing RT for landing a move on your shield either. I think at some point RT kinda figured out how to make you shield and was running circles around you because of this. Basically I see you shield every time RT has a banana in his hands. Granted, it's a pretty frightening projectile, but shielding it doesn't really achieve anything tbh. I usually try to clank it, if possible with a jab, but I'm not really all that happy with this answer either. In any case, try to shield reactively rather than preemptively, that way you may be able to perfect shield it, and you'll be moving better and keep some of that precious shield health for later.
You seem to always expect the opponent to DI out on your dthrows, and more than often miss your follow ups if they DI in. The more brutal follow ups are actually when they DI in, so make them respect that.
At 3:50 you gave up a LOT of stage control and let him recover from the platform. Were you that afraid of peanuts ? (I'm pretty sure it was an input error haha) Don't forget that peanuts are items, and that on top of clanking them you can also catch one and use it to your advantage. Especially if Diddy is tossing them in a highly predictable manner.
At 7:20 you were at 70% and stopped healing. Bruh !
I see you do a sh nair without fast falling it pretty often against shields. Nair is good against shields for 2 reasons : it has a tendency to shield stab, and... it has a landing hitbox. The landing hitbox is good because you know exactly how much frame advantage you'll have when doing a nair on their shield : -2 frames. It's more consistent than a spacies' dair-shine pressure string, you you can do much, much more with it. In example, if they shieldgrab, since it grabs on frame 7, grab armor lets you hit them until frame 6, so you can stuff any move that's frame 4 or less if you expect a shieldgrab (that means a jab, but it may change in future updates). If they expect the jab, they'll keep on shielding, or buffer a spotdodge or a roll, none of which put you at a disadvantage if you jab1 : they're still under pressure if they shield your jab1, and you can punish them for rolling or spotdodging after your jab1. If you land behind their shield it's even better (but more character specific). But in order to do all that.... You need to have that landing hitbox, ie to fastfall your nair when it is shielded.
Vs Twisty :
Again, lots of shields, which I can understand, it's kind of your panic button, but at one point you were shielding backwards and Wario kept hitting your shield without giving you any chance to retaliate. In that situation, I think I'd just buffer a roll or a jump and put some distance between us.
I saw a lot of bairs in the neutral in that set. And sure it walls Wario out but you keep chipping 10% here, 10% there whereas he gets 40-50% every time he finds an opening in your wall. Bair doesn't combo into anything and is pretty weak to a few specific things like dash dances and running shields : you shouldn't really be relying on it in the neutral, unless the opponent is at a percentage or a position where bair will set up an edgeguard. This would be the equivalent of a Falco only shooting lasers in the neutral, or a Jiggs only ever using bairs : sure, those moves are great, but if you're missing opportunities because you want to use them, well, you're not playing optimally at all. Mama told me "honey, your bair may win you the neutral game, but it doesn't win you the game !"
As you said, your DI could use some improvement. But the good thing is, if you start DIing the setup correctly, you won't have to worry about the fart because Wario won't be able to combo into it as easily. His only setup will be something like a rising advancing full hop fair, so if you keep an eye out for this you won't be surprised by farts that often anymore.
Vs Riot :
Well, I have absolutely zero idea of how to play against Zelda to be completely honest.
I do know that it's possible to hit Zelda out of the startup of her upB on reaction, so I tend to go deep against her. Maybe try that next time idk.
I don't want to push you in bad directions so I'm not going to give you feedback on this set sorry x)
Anyone else ?
Impressive Ivysaur Trek ! You made zekflop look bad when he is in fact a really good Charizard! I'm still hesitating between sticking with Lucas or switching to Ivysaur but man i gotta say... those sets against zekflop are making me tilt towards Ivysaur. Do you know if Up-smash out of shield is a viable option as Ivy? Also what are the pros of doing that reverse up-b on the ledge (do you save your tether by doing that?)
Hey hi Bobo, I'm a big fan of your Ivy as well, I wish it had more footage :D
Usmash is like, really really slow. Then again everything else we have out of shield is.
The only times I used it purposedly were against ZSS's dair shield pressure. But there may be other ways to use it idk :V
When you're on the ledge, people who have good recoveries will usually try to recover high. So by doing reverse upB I try to manipulate him into recovering high and punish him for it.
Usmash is like, really really slow. Then again everything else we have out of shield is.
The only times I used it purposedly were against ZSS's dair shield pressure. But there may be other ways to use it idk :V
When you're on the ledge, people who have good recoveries will usually try to recover high. So by doing reverse upB I try to manipulate him into recovering high and punish him for it.
Steel Kangaroo
Smash Ace
Wow Trek, really impressed with how you think about the game...very well thought out decision making. Your justification for how to fight Sonic I think is very interesting and I will need to go back to the drawing board :D
I appreciate you giving me feedback, your help is great :D
Yeah it's a huge problem of mine. I'm trying to teach myself to not shield when I get nervous. The bananas still mess me up so hard I will try clanking them next time.
Yeah it was input error. Trying to do a slight fade back neutral B to get him to approach. Pretty sure it was still a bad idea even if it had worked, people can react to me charging solar beam and punish too easily.
I agree, we can combo Wario pretty well and I guess I was too scared of his conversions (I feel like I gave him maybe 5 openings total game 1 and he converted on 3 of them) to risk overextending during the combo and kind of just reverted to bair spam. Do you ever think there are match ups where Ivy pretty much HAS to spam bair to win? When I don't know how to play a matchup or I get bopped trying to rushdown, I usually revert to bair spam and sometimes it ends up being correct? Idk basically I'm saying if Hbox can be a god based off bair spam...maybe it's legit? Though I agree that PPMD's principle is better and Ivysaur has the power to get 0-deaths so that's something I will start striving for.
I appreciate you giving me feedback, your help is great :D
Haha thanks, I appreciate it =D
Yeah I'm not a big fan of bairs in the neutral in general, except if the opponent's neutral game is mainly aerials like Captain Falcon or Wario. The reason for that is that if you hit someone on the ground with it, they can always CC or ASDI down the first hit. So if you try to whiff punish with it, you'll have to rely on the second hit which is like 20 frames. That, plus it's shield-grabbable, and we don't have Jiggs' air speed, either, just her air acceleration. And even if it hits, the only advantage you get is position, you can't combo or follow up with anything, really.
In general I use it if I predict an aerial, and the opponent is either close to the ledge or at high enough %. If I'm going to whiff punish something, idk, nair seems to do that job better every time.
It's still got a lot of uses don't get me wrong ! It powers through aerials, projectiles, and it has a RIDICULOUS disjoint and you'd be stupid not to abuse the hell out of it. It's just that I don't think that relying on it is a good idea for Ivy when she can do so much more.
I've seen JZ mainly do bairs into grabs at 0% and it's worked wonder for him (getting a grab at 0% takes away one of Ivy's main weaknesses, CC), so I'm trying to implement that as well these days. Idk how good it is yet, I feel like it's cheese tbh.
Yeah I'm not a big fan of bairs in the neutral in general, except if the opponent's neutral game is mainly aerials like Captain Falcon or Wario. The reason for that is that if you hit someone on the ground with it, they can always CC or ASDI down the first hit. So if you try to whiff punish with it, you'll have to rely on the second hit which is like 20 frames. That, plus it's shield-grabbable, and we don't have Jiggs' air speed, either, just her air acceleration. And even if it hits, the only advantage you get is position, you can't combo or follow up with anything, really.
In general I use it if I predict an aerial, and the opponent is either close to the ledge or at high enough %. If I'm going to whiff punish something, idk, nair seems to do that job better every time.
It's still got a lot of uses don't get me wrong ! It powers through aerials, projectiles, and it has a RIDICULOUS disjoint and you'd be stupid not to abuse the hell out of it. It's just that I don't think that relying on it is a good idea for Ivy when she can do so much more.
I've seen JZ mainly do bairs into grabs at 0% and it's worked wonder for him (getting a grab at 0% takes away one of Ivy's main weaknesses, CC), so I'm trying to implement that as well these days. Idk how good it is yet, I feel like it's cheese tbh.
-Sothe
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
- Messages
- 29
Hey guys, I just joined up on smashboards, and I have some videos of my ivy I'd like some input on. 
Mhmm, so having less than 10 posts (zero posts lol) I can't actually post the links to the videos with me in them. They should come up on youtube though by searching "PM singles GF sothe vs blank" and "PM singles sothe vs jazz." Sorry >_<
Mhmm, so having less than 10 posts (zero posts lol) I can't actually post the links to the videos with me in them. They should come up on youtube though by searching "PM singles GF sothe vs blank" and "PM singles sothe vs jazz." Sorry >_<
Got your back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4ASaufmIE Sothe vs Skyzim (Marth, Samus)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiDOvmX_Wks Sothe vs Zeal (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK5YIN4LtNw Sothe vs JAZZ (Marth, Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqKjD_hsbWc Sothe vs Blank (Marth) GF
I'm seeing some pretty freaking good stuff here. I love when a hidden boss pops out of nowhere haha
Your uairs are the crispiest uairs I've seen yet. But doing them so much, you've missed a few platform tech chases that you could have gotten easily with a nair. Oh well, judging by the amount of solar beams you got I suppose it was for the greater good :V
That's about it really. It's easier to give feedback when you lose or at least when you have a close set, so I don't feel like I can't help much. I'm definitely stealing some of your stuff though. Those moonwalks and healing sequences are completely new to me.
If you're looking to increase your post count tonight, I'd love to see what you have to say about my last VODs up there :V
Btw we have a skype group, add me or anyone you've seen post regularly here if you want in. My skype tag is trekiros :V
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4ASaufmIE Sothe vs Skyzim (Marth, Samus)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiDOvmX_Wks Sothe vs Zeal (Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK5YIN4LtNw Sothe vs JAZZ (Marth, Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqKjD_hsbWc Sothe vs Blank (Marth) GF
I'm seeing some pretty freaking good stuff here. I love when a hidden boss pops out of nowhere haha
Your uairs are the crispiest uairs I've seen yet. But doing them so much, you've missed a few platform tech chases that you could have gotten easily with a nair. Oh well, judging by the amount of solar beams you got I suppose it was for the greater good :V
That's about it really. It's easier to give feedback when you lose or at least when you have a close set, so I don't feel like I can't help much. I'm definitely stealing some of your stuff though. Those moonwalks and healing sequences are completely new to me.
If you're looking to increase your post count tonight, I'd love to see what you have to say about my last VODs up there :V
Btw we have a skype group, add me or anyone you've seen post regularly here if you want in. My skype tag is trekiros :V
-Sothe
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
- Messages
- 29
Did'ja notice everyone plays marth against me? xD
Skyzim is really a bowser (lol) player, so he kind of has a rough time.
Blank is a charizard (I honestly think he would have done better with zard, he is damn good)
JAZZ is a melee player, so he has a real marth.
I usually do uair because I believe it is by far the best for positioning, since I like putting people in places with seed bomb and then getting more trappish followups. Also I enjoy a super heavy emphasis on my solar beam game in my playstyle, so it fits.
The platform techchases, yeah...I know I seem to give them up for free, and I do, but I don't remember to nair at those times.
Healing sequence... you mean the double heals? You can heal faster doing it, but sometimes you just fire the solar beam. xD
Moonwalk bair for an edgeguard is pretty legit though. I tend to do a SHFFS (short hop fast fall synthesis) into a moonwalk going the other way. I find that it actually takes me a lot further doing that than it does when I moonwalk from standing or from a dashdance.
I'm gonna watch your stuff now and tell you want I think. I might only do one or two though, since I feel like it might get a little long-winded.
vs. Ike player
at :57, good pressure string to start out the match, but you gave it up by dairing and going in front of the shielding character. It's good to always stay behind the opponent. I think I would also have daired in that situation, but it seems to me the correct option is nair or WD OOS f-tilt/jabs.
at 1:09, you get a d-tilt. This move is super good, and should convert into something really nice. I would recommend trying for uair -> vine whip, or maybe (a bit ambitiously) delay your nair so that you can get that nice hitbox that brings the opponent into the ground, and then knocks them up a tiny bit into the air. That should combo into an easy grab or u-tilt, or a harder upsmash, maybe uair.
at 1:17, razor leaf hit. In situations where you think razor leaf will hit only once, run to your opponent and try get behind them for a pivot grab, or otherwise call out a roll. The opponent is likely to take a defensive option instantly, which could be to stay in shield, spotdodge, or roll back, but people don't roll forward much as far as I've seen, even though it's the best option. Pivot grab covers a lot of the options, and the dash might scare the opponent. If they roll inward, then hey, just walk up to them next time they have a leaf in their face.
at 3:11, bruh
at 3:24, you did it again. >_>
at 3:35, salt beam
at 3:47, d-throw fair is a thing, and it's good because it sometimes leads to ken's salad combo, but have you considered using short hop bair in such a situation? Your opponent is doing full DI away when that happens, so it's pretty nice.
at 3:54, you almost die because you tried to uair yourself down to the ground. I like the idea, but you uair yourself down a LOT it seems. Instead of worrying about stage position, it's often best to try to keep yourself from getting hit. While you're in the air like that, you have time to jump and launch an ambiguous seed bomb, dair bump yourself around, and uair under the cover of the seed bomb when it finally comes down.
at 4:03, you tried for a cool whip of d-throw, and it does work depending on DI. Something you could try though, if you notice the opponent DIing away, if you wanted to I bet you could have landed vine whip by predicting the opponent's jump and b-reversing the whip if need be.
at 5:24, THE BETRAYAL ;_;
I think you could have gone ivysaur though. Randall usually isn't THAT much of a problem, unless your opponent deliberately puts you on the randall side.
at 9:41, ivysaur has one of the best jabs in the game, but it doesn't help any against crouch cancel. In this kind of a situation, I might have jab cancelled into a roll away.
Also, generally, this brings me to another point. Dash cancelled jabs are really really good for techchasing and sometimes even in the neutral game. Learn how to jab cancel into turnaround jabs if you haven't already, since it helps to cover rolls well.
at 9:51, you reeled in to early. Even if ike managed to get in the general sweetspot area, it's not to hard to get back and grab ledge during aether. In fact, you can do this to most everybody. Except Wario. ;_;
at 9:58, the "oh god" situation has arisen. Here's what I like to do when in this situation. The first time I get caught in this situation, I like to just go immediately onto the stage as far as I can, and just take whatever hit the opponent throws at me. With ike, that could be REALLY nasty, but I would try to have faith in my DI and take the, at minimum, fair that he uses to get me, and then try to take stage.
at 10:05, under 50 precent on most characters, you should be able to grab them and convert off it into something. I would have probably gone for d-throw and converted to a fair/uair into hopefully more. Fair seems better if you can hit the tipper hitbox, but if you can't, unsweetspot uair (yes, unsweetspot) will give you more combo potential, since it doesn't send them so far upward that you can't continue a string.
at 10:09, when you are at the ledge, make sure that you know all the best options. I imagine you must know about ledgehop fair, nair, razor leaf, ledgejump aerials, standard getup, roll getup, and ledgedash. There are more too.
Ledgehop uair/dair: These are for when you're confident in your opponent not blocking. Ledgehop uair is really quick, but I don't know if I've used it on video for you to see.
Ledgehop seed bomb: I'm still working out this one myself, but from what I've established so far, I pretty safely ledgehop and throw out a seed bomb and make it back without using a tether. From there, I can have the seed bomb his the ground a bit ahead of where I want to be, and I can jump up from ledge and razor leaf safely onto the stage. If the opponent stays close, they might be shielding in anticipation of the seed, and so razor leaf might catch them in shield.
Ledgejump cancel wavedash: Just what it sounds like. You get the invincibility frames of a ledgejump for what it's worth, and you can cancel the jump by wavedashing. I do it because I friggin' suck at ledgedash, and I can do it moderately safely into jabs.
Ledgejump platform perfect waveland: I have some examples of myself doing it on battlefield in the videos above, and it's REALLY good at catching people off guard. To perform, ledgejump, then input your second jump near/at the apex of your ledgejump and waveland very quickly after.
at 11:24, again ;_;
at 11:34, you almost had it, but you had to go for a fair instead of another bair.
That's all I can handle for now. Hope this helps you think about new things.
Skyzim is really a bowser (lol) player, so he kind of has a rough time.
Blank is a charizard (I honestly think he would have done better with zard, he is damn good)
JAZZ is a melee player, so he has a real marth.
I usually do uair because I believe it is by far the best for positioning, since I like putting people in places with seed bomb and then getting more trappish followups. Also I enjoy a super heavy emphasis on my solar beam game in my playstyle, so it fits.
The platform techchases, yeah...I know I seem to give them up for free, and I do, but I don't remember to nair at those times.
Healing sequence... you mean the double heals? You can heal faster doing it, but sometimes you just fire the solar beam. xD
Moonwalk bair for an edgeguard is pretty legit though. I tend to do a SHFFS (short hop fast fall synthesis) into a moonwalk going the other way. I find that it actually takes me a lot further doing that than it does when I moonwalk from standing or from a dashdance.
I'm gonna watch your stuff now and tell you want I think. I might only do one or two though, since I feel like it might get a little long-winded.
vs. Ike player
at :57, good pressure string to start out the match, but you gave it up by dairing and going in front of the shielding character. It's good to always stay behind the opponent. I think I would also have daired in that situation, but it seems to me the correct option is nair or WD OOS f-tilt/jabs.
at 1:09, you get a d-tilt. This move is super good, and should convert into something really nice. I would recommend trying for uair -> vine whip, or maybe (a bit ambitiously) delay your nair so that you can get that nice hitbox that brings the opponent into the ground, and then knocks them up a tiny bit into the air. That should combo into an easy grab or u-tilt, or a harder upsmash, maybe uair.
at 1:17, razor leaf hit. In situations where you think razor leaf will hit only once, run to your opponent and try get behind them for a pivot grab, or otherwise call out a roll. The opponent is likely to take a defensive option instantly, which could be to stay in shield, spotdodge, or roll back, but people don't roll forward much as far as I've seen, even though it's the best option. Pivot grab covers a lot of the options, and the dash might scare the opponent. If they roll inward, then hey, just walk up to them next time they have a leaf in their face.
at 3:11, bruh
at 3:24, you did it again. >_>
at 3:35, salt beam
at 3:47, d-throw fair is a thing, and it's good because it sometimes leads to ken's salad combo, but have you considered using short hop bair in such a situation? Your opponent is doing full DI away when that happens, so it's pretty nice.
at 3:54, you almost die because you tried to uair yourself down to the ground. I like the idea, but you uair yourself down a LOT it seems. Instead of worrying about stage position, it's often best to try to keep yourself from getting hit. While you're in the air like that, you have time to jump and launch an ambiguous seed bomb, dair bump yourself around, and uair under the cover of the seed bomb when it finally comes down.
at 4:03, you tried for a cool whip of d-throw, and it does work depending on DI. Something you could try though, if you notice the opponent DIing away, if you wanted to I bet you could have landed vine whip by predicting the opponent's jump and b-reversing the whip if need be.
at 5:24, THE BETRAYAL ;_;
I think you could have gone ivysaur though. Randall usually isn't THAT much of a problem, unless your opponent deliberately puts you on the randall side.
at 9:41, ivysaur has one of the best jabs in the game, but it doesn't help any against crouch cancel. In this kind of a situation, I might have jab cancelled into a roll away.
Also, generally, this brings me to another point. Dash cancelled jabs are really really good for techchasing and sometimes even in the neutral game. Learn how to jab cancel into turnaround jabs if you haven't already, since it helps to cover rolls well.
at 9:51, you reeled in to early. Even if ike managed to get in the general sweetspot area, it's not to hard to get back and grab ledge during aether. In fact, you can do this to most everybody. Except Wario. ;_;
at 9:58, the "oh god" situation has arisen. Here's what I like to do when in this situation. The first time I get caught in this situation, I like to just go immediately onto the stage as far as I can, and just take whatever hit the opponent throws at me. With ike, that could be REALLY nasty, but I would try to have faith in my DI and take the, at minimum, fair that he uses to get me, and then try to take stage.
at 10:05, under 50 precent on most characters, you should be able to grab them and convert off it into something. I would have probably gone for d-throw and converted to a fair/uair into hopefully more. Fair seems better if you can hit the tipper hitbox, but if you can't, unsweetspot uair (yes, unsweetspot) will give you more combo potential, since it doesn't send them so far upward that you can't continue a string.
at 10:09, when you are at the ledge, make sure that you know all the best options. I imagine you must know about ledgehop fair, nair, razor leaf, ledgejump aerials, standard getup, roll getup, and ledgedash. There are more too.
Ledgehop uair/dair: These are for when you're confident in your opponent not blocking. Ledgehop uair is really quick, but I don't know if I've used it on video for you to see.
Ledgehop seed bomb: I'm still working out this one myself, but from what I've established so far, I pretty safely ledgehop and throw out a seed bomb and make it back without using a tether. From there, I can have the seed bomb his the ground a bit ahead of where I want to be, and I can jump up from ledge and razor leaf safely onto the stage. If the opponent stays close, they might be shielding in anticipation of the seed, and so razor leaf might catch them in shield.
Ledgejump cancel wavedash: Just what it sounds like. You get the invincibility frames of a ledgejump for what it's worth, and you can cancel the jump by wavedashing. I do it because I friggin' suck at ledgedash, and I can do it moderately safely into jabs.
Ledgejump platform perfect waveland: I have some examples of myself doing it on battlefield in the videos above, and it's REALLY good at catching people off guard. To perform, ledgejump, then input your second jump near/at the apex of your ledgejump and waveland very quickly after.
at 11:24, again ;_;
at 11:34, you almost had it, but you had to go for a fair instead of another bair.
That's all I can handle for now. Hope this helps you think about new things.
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Awww yeeee
I don't really get the "you did it again ;_;" and the "again ;_;" though. Just terrible execution ? :V
I agree that I jab way too much/too brainlessly haha. It's my panic button I guess :V
And yeah my grab game needs some work omfg.
I don't really get the "you did it again ;_;" and the "again ;_;" though. Just terrible execution ? :V
I agree that I jab way too much/too brainlessly haha. It's my panic button I guess :V
And yeah my grab game needs some work omfg.
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it's Papa
Smash Apprentice
Yo, lemme get in on this Skype group. My skype is PapaSSBPM, I'm adding you now.
Sets from Fight me IRL:
Vs SparkingZero
Vs KevinWow
Ike is hard. Something I noticed is a fall with nair like 100%. And he caught onto that pretty quick. When I am falling like that and he's right below me, what other options can I mix in? Anything else you guys notice?
Anyway, pretty proud of both sets overall. I've definitely been making progress. Sparking is a really good player and ended up taking 9th at pretty stacked tournament. Here's hoping I don't stop.
Vs SparkingZero
Vs KevinWow
Ike is hard. Something I noticed is a fall with nair like 100%. And he caught onto that pretty quick. When I am falling like that and he's right below me, what other options can I mix in? Anything else you guys notice?
Anyway, pretty proud of both sets overall. I've definitely been making progress. Sparking is a really good player and ended up taking 9th at pretty stacked tournament. Here's hoping I don't stop.
-Sothe
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
- Messages
- 29
Hey Em
I just watched your match vs ike, and I'll detail everything I see below. I tend to go really really in depth, and just because I have a lot to say doesn't mean you're bad or anything. You're actually quite good!
Vs SparklingZero (Ike)
At 0:03, you downthrow. You see his DI and you uair basically in place. Here, it's important to understand that rather than just throwing a move, you should be using it in order to cover tech options. Your uair in place covers both tech in place and no tech (I find it to be the correct option for my playstyle, others like nair in that position since it can follow into something like fair instead of more uair). Anyway, your uair covers those two options, tech in place and no tech. Your next attack should be something that covers the tech rolls if possible. The attack you used next was a full-hop fair, which I think is two slow to catch a tech roll after that uair. If it were me, I would have done the first uair you did, and another uair to catch a tech roll. I'm not sure which way I would have gone, but I would have called it wrong if I tried to read rather than react.
(I think it's worth going very in-depth on that scenario because my playstyle incorporates a LOT of this exact kind of platform pressure. I have no idea what it's worth to you though.)
At 0:06, the aerial sequence you do there seems unsafe because he could have grabbed your nair landing. I find that, after hit confirming with the second hit of bair, you can usually run in and dash grab at low percents. This leads into d-throw which should equate to followups.
At 0:11, the bair was unsafe, and so you got yourself grabbed, essentially leading to the loss of stock because ike. :/
starting at 0:21, the bair you used could have gotten you grabbed, but ike rolled. The landing after your dair also could have gotten you grabbed, but it seems like you saw that and threw your jabs.
At 0:30, jab when they're in the air like that almost always confirms a grab on characters with no combo police moves (like mewtwo fair, luigi nair, etc.)
At 1:16, you get up with a ledgedrop jumping nair. I personally try to avoid doing this, since retreating and punishing is much easier to do against nair than it is against fair. Here, I think I would have done ledgehop fair or something I do that amounts to a waveland. I would have used the get-up jump and canceled it into an airdodge, wavelanding me onto the stage. I use this because I suck at actual ledgehop wavelands with ivy and prefer a safe (although technically worse) version of the waveland.
The difference between picking certain ledge options should be based on minute differences in the opponent's positioning. The fact that ike was crouching at that position means that, even though I find fair to be the correct option at that distance, I would have done my scrubby "waveland" and gone for a dashgrab or pivot grab.
At 1:21, fair converts into u-tilt into grab or just grab -> d-throw followups.
At 1:35, damn good choice on that retreat. Good choice with the leaf too, I probably would have faired him and let him live. xD
At 1:46, you're both in stressful close quarters, and both ike and ivy kind of suck at it. Ike actually wants space so he can advance with ranging hitboxes, and you want space so you can throw leaves/seeds and fairs. In this kind of a situation though, I recommend taking the initiative with a crossup nair, making sure that you land behind the opponent.
At 1:53, niiiice nair, that was as good as it gets. When you get good shield pressure like that, you can usually go for a dash grab right after nair, since your opponent may be a bit late to the roll.
At 3:21, don't use synthesis when your opponent is so close, and certainly not SHFFS, since it's so slow. If you want beam quickly, you can d-throw people into combos that involve uair. D-throw is an almost guaranteed combo starter into either fair (which converts into uair) or uair chains, which do wonders for charging beam. If beam isn't your concern, and you were looking to bait the opponent, only one synthesis is ever needed to rile an opponent up. I have been personally told that ivysaur's healing pisses people off, and much more so with uair chains. It's pretty good, so if you feel like that kind of style if for you (it's certainly for me), then use it.
At 3:41, just my stylistic input, I would throw the first seed bomb forcing a landing on one side of ivysaur, then timed a razor leaf to put pressure on ike as he lands. This kind of landing trap happens fairly often I think in my style of play, if you wanted to watch some videos of my ivy for reference. There certainly is merit to double seed bomb, especially if you can get the second seed to hit.
At 4:30, you get knocked straight up. Here, I would go straight to throwing seed bombs. I think I would jump up, throw a seed bomb, throw another one, and then start dair bumping into where the seed bombs are to cover my landing. The advantage of this is that the seed bombs are completely ambiguous for the opponent, meaning they have NO idea where those things are going. You can use this to your advantage in order to come down with the seeds. I guess my major objection with how you did the seed in the video is that you threw the seed when you were too close to the ground, and so you couldn't get any big use out of it before ike could hit you.
At 5:03, I definitely see what you were going for there, but it is important to remember that launching razor leaf from further away gets you a better chance for the opponent's invincibility frames to run out. The only reason you died (razor leaf would have hit him) is that you didn't start the razor leaf soon enough.
At 5:14, see how after you naired him, his shield went up? That is exactly why nair into dash grab works, EVERYBODY will try to shield after you nair them if you have followed nair with uptilt beforehand. In fact, most people shield anyway, because you would shield after fox's drill got done, right? Nair into dash grab is super good, so try incorporating that.
At 5:22, really good retreat toward the ledge.
At 5:26, NIIIIIICE
At 5:30, don't be afraid to go really deep for that. I think you would have gotten him if you had gone deeper, or had perhaps taken ledge. It's always nice to mix in a bluff edgeguard, and then just take ledge.
At 5:38, "He won't even see this coming"
At 6:04, This can be a free kill for you. If the opponent is literally sitting at the edge, you can kill him with a swift uair from the ledge. It's a tech I know, but haven't seen much use with. That would be an optimal place to use it though.
Overall, I think you lost because it was ike. He just kept getting kills after throws, it's kind of what he does. One thing you could try is, whenever he throws you off, you know that ike has a set area (above the stage) in which he will generally be able to kill you from. You could try to get out of there by going low with uair.
Generally, I would recommend making your aerials more safe, since you got grabbed a lot out of unsafe bairs and nairs.
To answer your question, you can mix in dair (highly unsafe if the opponent has a good OOS aerial like meta knight's nair) or empty land jabs/dashgrab. I don't think you should have to though, since I've always found falling with nair to be good enough. It's what you do after that counts. The best followups are jabs, dash grab, pivot grab, dairing, or buffered roll.
I just watched your match vs ike, and I'll detail everything I see below. I tend to go really really in depth, and just because I have a lot to say doesn't mean you're bad or anything. You're actually quite good!
Vs SparklingZero (Ike)
At 0:03, you downthrow. You see his DI and you uair basically in place. Here, it's important to understand that rather than just throwing a move, you should be using it in order to cover tech options. Your uair in place covers both tech in place and no tech (I find it to be the correct option for my playstyle, others like nair in that position since it can follow into something like fair instead of more uair). Anyway, your uair covers those two options, tech in place and no tech. Your next attack should be something that covers the tech rolls if possible. The attack you used next was a full-hop fair, which I think is two slow to catch a tech roll after that uair. If it were me, I would have done the first uair you did, and another uair to catch a tech roll. I'm not sure which way I would have gone, but I would have called it wrong if I tried to read rather than react.
(I think it's worth going very in-depth on that scenario because my playstyle incorporates a LOT of this exact kind of platform pressure. I have no idea what it's worth to you though.
)At 0:06, the aerial sequence you do there seems unsafe because he could have grabbed your nair landing. I find that, after hit confirming with the second hit of bair, you can usually run in and dash grab at low percents. This leads into d-throw which should equate to followups.
At 0:11, the bair was unsafe, and so you got yourself grabbed, essentially leading to the loss of stock because ike. :/
starting at 0:21, the bair you used could have gotten you grabbed, but ike rolled. The landing after your dair also could have gotten you grabbed, but it seems like you saw that and threw your jabs.
At 0:30, jab when they're in the air like that almost always confirms a grab on characters with no combo police moves (like mewtwo fair, luigi nair, etc.)
At 1:16, you get up with a ledgedrop jumping nair. I personally try to avoid doing this, since retreating and punishing is much easier to do against nair than it is against fair. Here, I think I would have done ledgehop fair or something I do that amounts to a waveland. I would have used the get-up jump and canceled it into an airdodge, wavelanding me onto the stage. I use this because I suck at actual ledgehop wavelands with ivy and prefer a safe (although technically worse) version of the waveland.
The difference between picking certain ledge options should be based on minute differences in the opponent's positioning. The fact that ike was crouching at that position means that, even though I find fair to be the correct option at that distance, I would have done my scrubby "waveland" and gone for a dashgrab or pivot grab.
At 1:21, fair converts into u-tilt into grab or just grab -> d-throw followups.
At 1:35, damn good choice on that retreat. Good choice with the leaf too, I probably would have faired him and let him live. xD
At 1:46, you're both in stressful close quarters, and both ike and ivy kind of suck at it. Ike actually wants space so he can advance with ranging hitboxes, and you want space so you can throw leaves/seeds and fairs. In this kind of a situation though, I recommend taking the initiative with a crossup nair, making sure that you land behind the opponent.
At 1:53, niiiice nair, that was as good as it gets. When you get good shield pressure like that, you can usually go for a dash grab right after nair, since your opponent may be a bit late to the roll.
At 3:21, don't use synthesis when your opponent is so close, and certainly not SHFFS, since it's so slow. If you want beam quickly, you can d-throw people into combos that involve uair. D-throw is an almost guaranteed combo starter into either fair (which converts into uair) or uair chains, which do wonders for charging beam. If beam isn't your concern, and you were looking to bait the opponent, only one synthesis is ever needed to rile an opponent up. I have been personally told that ivysaur's healing pisses people off, and much more so with uair chains. It's pretty good, so if you feel like that kind of style if for you (it's certainly for me), then use it.
At 3:41, just my stylistic input, I would throw the first seed bomb forcing a landing on one side of ivysaur, then timed a razor leaf to put pressure on ike as he lands. This kind of landing trap happens fairly often I think in my style of play, if you wanted to watch some videos of my ivy for reference. There certainly is merit to double seed bomb, especially if you can get the second seed to hit.
At 4:30, you get knocked straight up. Here, I would go straight to throwing seed bombs. I think I would jump up, throw a seed bomb, throw another one, and then start dair bumping into where the seed bombs are to cover my landing. The advantage of this is that the seed bombs are completely ambiguous for the opponent, meaning they have NO idea where those things are going. You can use this to your advantage in order to come down with the seeds. I guess my major objection with how you did the seed in the video is that you threw the seed when you were too close to the ground, and so you couldn't get any big use out of it before ike could hit you.
At 5:03, I definitely see what you were going for there, but it is important to remember that launching razor leaf from further away gets you a better chance for the opponent's invincibility frames to run out. The only reason you died (razor leaf would have hit him) is that you didn't start the razor leaf soon enough.
At 5:14, see how after you naired him, his shield went up? That is exactly why nair into dash grab works, EVERYBODY will try to shield after you nair them if you have followed nair with uptilt beforehand. In fact, most people shield anyway, because you would shield after fox's drill got done, right? Nair into dash grab is super good, so try incorporating that.
At 5:22, really good retreat toward the ledge.
At 5:26, NIIIIIICE
At 5:30, don't be afraid to go really deep for that. I think you would have gotten him if you had gone deeper, or had perhaps taken ledge. It's always nice to mix in a bluff edgeguard, and then just take ledge.
At 5:38, "He won't even see this coming"
At 6:04, This can be a free kill for you. If the opponent is literally sitting at the edge, you can kill him with a swift uair from the ledge. It's a tech I know, but haven't seen much use with. That would be an optimal place to use it though.
Overall, I think you lost because it was ike. He just kept getting kills after throws, it's kind of what he does. One thing you could try is, whenever he throws you off, you know that ike has a set area (above the stage) in which he will generally be able to kill you from. You could try to get out of there by going low with uair.
Generally, I would recommend making your aerials more safe, since you got grabbed a lot out of unsafe bairs and nairs.
To answer your question, you can mix in dair (highly unsafe if the opponent has a good OOS aerial like meta knight's nair) or empty land jabs/dashgrab. I don't think you should have to though, since I've always found falling with nair to be good enough. It's what you do after that counts. The best followups are jabs, dash grab, pivot grab, dairing, or buffered roll.
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Steel Kangaroo
Smash Ace
Could you explain this more in depth? You're saying if the enemy is right at the edge of the ledge, we can jump from ledge and do and uair to spike them?
Nah, pretty sure he meant a sweetspot uair to star KO, considering Ike's %.
From my experience, the thing that makes juggles work is that from the trajectory you have when you get hit, it is possible to guesstimate with a pretty slim margin of error where and when you will land, even if you get out of hitstun. And Ivy being a floaty with bad horizontal air speed makes it even easier. So it's fairly easy for the juggler to position himself out of your range and punish you : he knows where you'll be at any point in time until you touch the ground.
But there are ways to alter your landing spot and timing, like a double jump in example. So what the juggler does is that he will use the tools he has at his disposition to cover as many potential landing spots and landing timing as possible simultaneously. I tend to think of it as maximizing your margin of error. In example, if Marth is juggling, he'll usually do a short hop late uair instead of a short hop rising uair, so that if the uair misses, he can act as soon as possible. And he'll fall right in front of where you'd land so he has access to as many options as possible whether the uair hits or misses.
The more margin of error the juggler has, the more options he'll be able to cover. The more tools you have to alter your landing spot, the more options he'll have to cover. Eventually he won't be able to cover everything, and will have to make a choice between covering everything except X, or covering everything except Y. The mixup for you is then to choose between X and Y.
Nair is a good move, but it doesn't alter your trajectory in any way, so your opponent is highly likely to be on his way to cover your future landing spot already by the time you input your nair. Sure, you can go for it every once in a while to mess with your opponent's head, but it's not something you should be going for regularly.
Same thing goes for double jumps : sure, it WILL get you out of trouble temporarily, but it's a universal option so the juggler is going to be well prepared for that eventuality. He'll always move in a way that will make it so he'll still be under you if you double jump. So instead of getting into a juggle situation, you're going to get into a juggle situation one second later, but without a double jump. And that's very bad because that's a double jump you may need to recover or dodge : your opponent can now allow himself to use options with lots of lag like a smash without the risk of you dodging, and that smash is more likely to kill as well since your recovery is now half as long as it used to be. If you waste your double jump, the reward for landing a juggle are much higher.
Ivy's dair and uair alter her momentum, so they make it significantly harder to juggle Ivysaur. Here are a few tips about those two moves :
-dair : it has decent range and you can strafe during it, those are its two main strengths, make sure you make the most out of them. You can hold down to mix it up, which may work, idk, I've never experimented with it but that's still an option to keep in mind. Its main weakness is that you have a limited supply of them : if you get hit during or after a dair, that's one less dair you'll have to recover. Same logic as the double jump, then. Sometimes it is better to accept the punishment rather than waste one of your resources.
-uair : it transforms Ivy into a fastfaller without any of the drawbacks, it is seriously good. You can do it during a double jump, and by varying slightly your timing you will have a great influence on your landing spot's timing and position. Its main weakness is that is is negatively disjointed, so it's very easy to stuff it with any hitbox you want.
Obviously, you're in a juggle situation, so none of your options are "good". But each has its strengths and its weaknesses, and by knowing each, and mixing up your decisions, you should be able to get out of juggles pretty consistently. Ivysaur is a very hard to juggle imo (at least compared to the rest of the cast. As a former Brawl player, I find her pretty damn easy to juggle haha), the only problem she has is her horizontal air speed. That's what your opponent is going to exploit the most and there's not much you can do about it.
If all else fails, DI towards the nearest ledge so that the juggle transforms into an early edgeguard which has fairly low chances of resulting into a kill.
Alright, let's talk about juggles :V
From my experience, the thing that makes juggles work is that from the trajectory you have when you get hit, it is possible to guesstimate with a pretty slim margin of error where and when you will land, even if you get out of hitstun. And Ivy being a floaty with bad horizontal air speed makes it even easier. So it's fairly easy for the juggler to position himself out of your range and punish you : he knows where you'll be at any point in time until you touch the ground.
But there are ways to alter your landing spot and timing, like a double jump in example. So what the juggler does is that he will use the tools he has at his disposition to cover as many potential landing spots and landing timing as possible simultaneously. I tend to think of it as maximizing your margin of error. In example, if Marth is juggling, he'll usually do a short hop late uair instead of a short hop rising uair, so that if the uair misses, he can act as soon as possible. And he'll fall right in front of where you'd land so he has access to as many options as possible whether the uair hits or misses.
The more margin of error the juggler has, the more options he'll be able to cover. The more tools you have to alter your landing spot, the more options he'll have to cover. Eventually he won't be able to cover everything, and will have to make a choice between covering everything except X, or covering everything except Y. The mixup for you is then to choose between X and Y.
Nair is a good move, but it doesn't alter your trajectory in any way, so your opponent is highly likely to be on his way to cover your future landing spot already by the time you input your nair. Sure, you can go for it every once in a while to mess with your opponent's head, but it's not something you should be going for regularly.
Same thing goes for double jumps : sure, it WILL get you out of trouble temporarily, but it's a universal option so the juggler is going to be well prepared for that eventuality. He'll always move in a way that will make it so he'll still be under you if you double jump. So instead of getting into a juggle situation, you're going to get into a juggle situation one second later, but without a double jump. And that's very bad because that's a double jump you may need to recover or dodge : your opponent can now allow himself to use options with lots of lag like a smash without the risk of you dodging, and that smash is more likely to kill as well since your recovery is now half as long as it used to be. If you waste your double jump, the reward for landing a juggle are much higher.
Ivy's dair and uair alter her momentum, so they make it significantly harder to juggle Ivysaur. Here are a few tips about those two moves :
-dair : it has decent range and you can strafe during it, those are its two main strengths, make sure you make the most out of them. You can hold down to mix it up, which may work, idk, I've never experimented with it but that's still an option to keep in mind. Its main weakness is that you have a limited supply of them : if you get hit during or after a dair, that's one less dair you'll have to recover. Same logic as the double jump, then. Sometimes it is better to accept the punishment rather than waste one of your resources.
-uair : it transforms Ivy into a fastfaller without any of the drawbacks, it is seriously good. You can do it during a double jump, and by varying slightly your timing you will have a great influence on your landing spot's timing and position. Its main weakness is that is is negatively disjointed, so it's very easy to stuff it with any hitbox you want.
Obviously, you're in a juggle situation, so none of your options are "good". But each has its strengths and its weaknesses, and by knowing each, and mixing up your decisions, you should be able to get out of juggles pretty consistently. Ivysaur is a very hard to juggle imo (at least compared to the rest of the cast. As a former Brawl player, I find her pretty damn easy to juggle haha), the only problem she has is her horizontal air speed. That's what your opponent is going to exploit the most and there's not much you can do about it.
If all else fails, DI towards the nearest ledge so that the juggle transforms into an early edgeguard which has fairly low chances of resulting into a kill.
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-Sothe
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2015
- Messages
- 29
Err, the goal is to get the sweetspot, so it's not really a tech so much as a situational move that you might get yourself killed doing if you haven't practiced it. It's sort of like ledgedashing in that way. I do it just by dropping off the ledge and then moving into the opponent and doing uair very quickly in an attempt to get them off or get the stock. It's sort of like ledge jump fair or nair, except that you might end up suiciding trying it.
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it's Papa
Smash Apprentice
Video of probably the best set I've ever played just got uploaded, and I'd love some feedback from you guys on it. I'm about to watch it for the first time myself, but I remember missing an absurd amount of ledgedashes, so I've got that covered in the criticism department lol.
Papa vs. Carls (Finals pool) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvraXMGtJw0
EDIT:
Also, here's another one I'd really like some feedback on. I think I did some pretty OK stuff despite losing. Should have stuck to my guns and gone Ivy in game 5; I was overconfident in my IC from game 3 and the counterpick cost me the set.
Papa vs. Master WGS (Finals Pool) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqG3PT4jn7M
Papa
vs. Carls (Finals pool) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvraXMGtJw0EDIT:
Also, here's another one I'd really like some feedback on. I think I did some pretty OK stuff despite losing. Should have stuck to my guns and gone Ivy in game 5; I was overconfident in my IC from game 3 and the counterpick cost me the set.
Papa
vs. Master WGS (Finals Pool) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqG3PT4jn7M
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JZ vs Anther :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aRIPQ1OVsA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aRIPQ1OVsA
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
We need to revamp the OP of this thread.
yup, probably
Here are litterally every bracket set I played this Sunday. If you guys see things I haven't seen yet, please share =3
This tourney I SD'd a lot and missed nearly all of my solar beams, and more importantly I often felt like I was sandbagging unvoluntarily (vs Zekflop and during the last match vs Charby, mostly, the rest is pretty ok by my standards).
So there's a lot of work to be done on my mindset already, but I've also seen some pretty bad habits like being predictable with my RLs in the neutral, allowing people to close in on me by doing running shields, and ending my combos sooner than they should end by throwing in bairs instead of down Bs when the victim is above and behind me. My ledge game is pretty cheesy as well and I often get hit by telegraphed things (especially against Poilu)
What I've been working on is using dsmash at low% if I see that my combo is going to get CC'd and punished, and using nair and down B as you guys told me to last time. Also grabbing more outside of combos. I've also been using fsmash a bit to test it because I have genuinely no idea how good this move is but it looked like I'm not using it enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruRPZxUZFJE vs Rikkel (Ganondorf) - WB round 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpvqOfOj_eM vs Charby (Marth) - WB round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KroTQIs001Y vs Chen (Wolf, Fox) - LB round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsKjx0_xxh8 vs Smash_Falco3 (Ike) - LB round 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADFySFV8gQw vs Poilu (Lucario) - LB round 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNnbfcrHBM vs Zekflop (Charizard) - LB round 5
I think I was a bit exhausted after beating Poilu and S_F3 in a row (they were 1-0 and 2-0 against me respectively prior to this tournament) and I kinda let my guard down against Zekflop, whom I've always beaten at least 3-1. I winked in my mind at the end of the last match, I'm sure you'll see why
edit : JZ vidjos !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJdH82Lkf6k vs Westballz (Falco)*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZlNwTjsE7M vs Infinity (MK, Sheik)
There doesn't seem to be any vid of him at Aftershock tho :C
Infinity seems to know the matchup pretty well (he gets out of nairs consistently, gets a lot of mileage from edgehogs, and doesn't fall prey to some of the more cheesy combos like bair grab at 0% too often) so it's definitely an interesting match. I have no idea how that matchup is played so I'm taking a lot of notes here
Westballz not so much, but he more than makes up for it in raw Falco skill. JZ's pretty much the best Ivy against spacies at this point, so it's very interesting.
From what I can tell, three common ways he uses to deal with Falco's lasers in the neutral are shooting a razor leaf through it (and accepting the 2% toll that comes with it, but that's actually a pretty good decision because the leaf stays out so long you actually get to stop him from shooting a second laser and you get to approach), platform camping (but obviously that's not optimal either), and perfect shields. Basically you have to choose between taking damage, losing stage control, and risking tech slipups. Damn lasers lol
Dair seems to beat Falco's upB so that's good to know. I've always used the belly stomp against firefox/firebird, but it trades instead of outright winning.
Using the top part of the bair hitbox seems to be JZ's preferred way to deal with Falco's full hop dairs. It's pretty smart, since you can't shield those, and it puts Falco offstage. It looks pretty difficult to space properly though. Usmash definitely beats it though, and I haven't seen JZ use a single one :V
We can sh above low lasers, and due to how short we are, we can just run under high and mid lasers. Being able to react to the height Falco shoots his lasers at seems to be a critical skill to winning that matchup on large stages.
Here are litterally every bracket set I played this Sunday. If you guys see things I haven't seen yet, please share =3
This tourney I SD'd a lot and missed nearly all of my solar beams, and more importantly I often felt like I was sandbagging unvoluntarily (vs Zekflop and during the last match vs Charby, mostly, the rest is pretty ok by my standards).
So there's a lot of work to be done on my mindset already, but I've also seen some pretty bad habits like being predictable with my RLs in the neutral, allowing people to close in on me by doing running shields, and ending my combos sooner than they should end by throwing in bairs instead of down Bs when the victim is above and behind me. My ledge game is pretty cheesy as well and I often get hit by telegraphed things (especially against Poilu)
What I've been working on is using dsmash at low% if I see that my combo is going to get CC'd and punished, and using nair and down B as you guys told me to last time. Also grabbing more outside of combos. I've also been using fsmash a bit to test it because I have genuinely no idea how good this move is but it looked like I'm not using it enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruRPZxUZFJE vs Rikkel (Ganondorf) - WB round 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpvqOfOj_eM vs Charby (Marth) - WB round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KroTQIs001Y vs Chen (Wolf, Fox) - LB round 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsKjx0_xxh8 vs Smash_Falco3 (Ike) - LB round 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADFySFV8gQw vs Poilu (Lucario) - LB round 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNnbfcrHBM vs Zekflop (Charizard) - LB round 5
I think I was a bit exhausted after beating Poilu and S_F3 in a row (they were 1-0 and 2-0 against me respectively prior to this tournament) and I kinda let my guard down against Zekflop, whom I've always beaten at least 3-1. I winked in my mind at the end of the last match, I'm sure you'll see why
edit : JZ vidjos !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJdH82Lkf6k vs Westballz (Falco)*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZlNwTjsE7M vs Infinity (MK, Sheik)
There doesn't seem to be any vid of him at Aftershock tho :C
Infinity seems to know the matchup pretty well (he gets out of nairs consistently, gets a lot of mileage from edgehogs, and doesn't fall prey to some of the more cheesy combos like bair grab at 0% too often) so it's definitely an interesting match. I have no idea how that matchup is played so I'm taking a lot of notes here
Westballz not so much, but he more than makes up for it in raw Falco skill. JZ's pretty much the best Ivy against spacies at this point, so it's very interesting.
From what I can tell, three common ways he uses to deal with Falco's lasers in the neutral are shooting a razor leaf through it (and accepting the 2% toll that comes with it, but that's actually a pretty good decision because the leaf stays out so long you actually get to stop him from shooting a second laser and you get to approach), platform camping (but obviously that's not optimal either), and perfect shields. Basically you have to choose between taking damage, losing stage control, and risking tech slipups. Damn lasers lol
Dair seems to beat Falco's upB so that's good to know. I've always used the belly stomp against firefox/firebird, but it trades instead of outright winning.
Using the top part of the bair hitbox seems to be JZ's preferred way to deal with Falco's full hop dairs. It's pretty smart, since you can't shield those, and it puts Falco offstage. It looks pretty difficult to space properly though. Usmash definitely beats it though, and I haven't seen JZ use a single one :V
We can sh above low lasers, and due to how short we are, we can just run under high and mid lasers. Being able to react to the height Falco shoots his lasers at seems to be a critical skill to winning that matchup on large stages.
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