Event - Apex 2015 The SSB64 tourney is going to be a joke. We want Round Robin pools.

[LLDL]

Thead Over

 

[MassiveMoo]

Apex will share one format of running pools, that is Bracket Pools. Yes, we understand people are flying in from all over the place, but this applies to Melee and Brawl as well and every other fighting game, two losses and you're out. You will have a lot of time to play 64 Friendlies.. the entire day Saturday, and Sunday.


As for the TV sharing situation, we won't be moving any 64 tv's. Hope this clears up everything.

With regards to stream time.. 64 has 9hrs and 30 minutes of total stream time stemming from Friday-Saturday Finals.

I strongly disagree with this decision regarding RR pools, especially as we have plenty of time to reverse it. I am seriously bothered by that.

However, I would also like to let you know that I am glad that we received a response, I am impressed that we have 9.5 hours of stream time instead of the 4 that I thought we had, and I feel much better about coming personally to compete now that I know that my setup will not be taken away if I choose to bring it. This is significantly better than I thought it would be.

 

[R3N0]

Since you took the time out to post with your reasoning, I will oblige you and return the favor.

we are getting 10am again, when the stream is basically dead. melee and brawl are spread across three days. oh, and pm finals are occurring at the same time as 64 finals. but like i said, i'm content with less stream time because of less entrants. it's only fair that less people participating = less time shown on stream. ideally, we'd have most of our own matches streamed on our own private channels.

During the second day, you are getting 10am finals. That is correct. People who want to watch will still wake up and watch. Or watch it on archives. You want people to see it, you don't need concurrent viewers, just have hype matches. On top, you recognize you are a smaller event and therefore would not draw as many viewers as Melee or Brawl would during a prime-time slot.

but no. on the east coast alone, we've had over ten tournaments with good showings. there have been like two or three in florida, maybe two or three on the west coast. yet none of these events act as "qualifiers". we don't get seeding points. how are the brackets organized? by TO preference. ELO ratings. who-we-think-should-be-seeded-here-and-not-there.
am i complaining? no. we have a drastically smaller community and it would take much more effort to do the kinds of things melee/brawl to's do with regard to seeding. i am completely sympathetic with the way players are seeded.
you may say that the lack of tourneys is a reason for this - well, there are melee/brawl tourneys every other week in the tristate area, and seldom do the to's include 64. if you host it, they will come. trust me on that one.
but i digress. it's not awful that we don't get these things. but we certainly notice that we do not, and nobody has ever said one word about it.

Qualifiers were chosen by selecting reputable tournament hosts that have large turnouts. If they didn't have 64, then there aren't seeding points to be had. The 64 community is small enough for lead TO's to understand seeding. Melee and Brawl tournaments in the tristate area happen every other week because there is a very large pool of people who consistently show up. I'd like to note that while hosting Smashacre, we moved around 64 so that they would have time all of Saturday during our two day tournament, specifically because 64 community members could 'only show up saturday' .. and do you know how many 64 players showed up? Something like 10 people.

We're trying to accommodate the 64 community, but it's difficult to justify the resources being doled out.

everyone knows we're treated like a side event. we don't get doubles. we don't get streamed crew battles. we don't get cool sponsors. and again, it's because of our size, how much less known we are, how many fewer people play. and that's OKAY. we're FINE with not getting all of those things. we do it ourselves anyway. we still run an unofficial dubs tourney. we still have draft crew battles. we still have people make clans. we do it for fun and we do not ask to be included in the hype videos, we don't complain that everything we have to do, we have to do alone, without the backing or interest of staff. never has the offer been made to stream a crew battle. but it's alright! seriously. we don't really mind.

Good.

suppose we didn't have enough televisions and 64s. would the staff take tvs away from melee and brawl? at most tourneys, 64 is hosted with the express statement that participants MUST bring their own systems and tvs, as the venue/staff will NOT provide them to the players. everyone complies. i have seen a surprising amount of times where we have the most setups at an event, and staff will ask us to lend our tv's out to melee or to brawl. this happened at zenith, i remember, and i couldn't stop laughing at the fact that the community with the least players had an excess of setups.
but we do not expect tourney organizers to provide us with this kind of stuff. we already know that we have to bring our own.

We will not be removing TV's from your station.

 

[rjgbadger]

Since you took the time out to post with your reasoning, I will oblige you and return the favor.



During the second day, you are getting 10am finals. That is correct. People who want to watch will still wake up and watch. Or watch it on archives. You want people to see it, you don't need concurrent viewers, just have hype matches. On top, you recognize you are a smaller event and therefore would not draw as many viewers as Melee or Brawl would during a prime-time slot.


Qualifiers are choosing reputable tournament hosts that have large turnouts. If they didn't have 64, then there aren't seeding points to be had. The 64 community is small enough for lead TO's to understand seeding. Melee and Brawl tournaments in the tristate area happen every other week because there is a very large pool of people who consistently show up. I'd like to note that while hosting Smashacre, we moved around 64 so that they would have time all of Saturday during our two day tournament, specifically because 64 community members could 'only show up saturday' .. and do you know how many 64 players showed up? Something like 10 people.

We're trying to accommodate the 64 community, but it's difficult to justify the resources being doled out.




Good.



We will not be removing TV's from your station.

As a community, we don't care about nice 1000s+ viewer streams. We don't really care about not being as exposed to the smash community as other games(though it is somewhat frustrating to have a MOD have better stream time+bigger pot bonus, and other NON-smash games also have a bigger pot bonus as well). We don't really care about being considered a side-event. Can't we just have our Round Robin Pools? It does not affect you in any way besides 'durr uniformity,' which is an obvious and blatant excuse to not comply with what the community wants, and it really is a simple request. We will have enough setups, and surely players would step up and volunteer for organizing, if t meant the pools we want.

No matter much in attempting to sway you though, it seems. You will likely continue being hard headed and resilient to reason, as proved by the earlier discussion. This is Smash 64's ONLY global-level event, and you won't even listen to its own community about the matter.

 

[R3N0]

at 10am, melee and brawl pools start and end at 7pm. that's 9 hours. which is to be expected if the turnout echoes last year's 300+.
these pools will run concurrently, so a lot of people will have to run around playing people in different games and really keep the schedule tight. most melee players play brawl and vice versa, or at least, the proportion of m/b players to those two games is a lot closer than 64 players participating in other events (which is to say, most people who are entering 64 are ONLY entering 64. look at the registrants list)

I don't know what point you are trying to make. There will be cross overs that will end up holding up other pools in other games.

64, which is projected to have less than half of the entrants for melee/brawl, is given 7 hours.
let me break this down real fast: from 4pm to 8pm, there will be 2 pools of 64 occurring, each with 32 entrants. there will thus be two mini tourneys of 32 people going on. 4 hours to run a tourney in its entirety is plausible; the issue of time usually comes with people going to get food or playing friendlies or brackets being held up by people participating in other events or waiting for stream/recording setup. let it be known that pools 3-4 get one hour less, which is REALLY pushing the limits, but it can be done if you put all the pure 64 guys in it and no cross-game players.

Once we get down to pools 3-4, there will be no other games going on besides for crews.. and the chance of crossover is slim. 3 Hrs for bracket pools is more than enough time.

what is the issue with elongating the 64 tourney, having it start at noon, run round robin pools until 8pm, then continue with the bracket until top6/8 until 11pm, and then having top6/8 on stream the next morning?

We don't want 64 conflicting that much with any melee/brawl entrants. RR pools is proven to take a long time to complete. Especially with a game like 64 with no timer, you have to understand that we just want to get things done here. And, for the last time RR is not going to happen because we are using bracket pool rules for all of our games. No matter how big, small, wide, old, young, whatever, bracket pools are again non-negotiable.

all the while taking in to consideration the fact that we will be recording our own games and have the ability to stream our own sets, THUS freeing up LOTS of stream time for the other two games, which will get more viewers.

Why complain about stream time anyway? Who is streaming for you? Why would you want to compete with APEX who will have guaranteed viewers? It doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems like your argument is saying that 64 community is completely independent, but I don't recall the last time I even saw a 64 exclusive tournament. If there was, please show me the stats of that stream.

i cannot see a reason why this is problematic, nor can i see a reason why we should be forced to adhere to this notion of uniformity only when it suits staff. i have illustrated that we are not treated equally, and though this unfairness could very well leave a lot of people with a sour taste in their mouths, that is not the case at all.

You have 9hrs and 30 minutes worth of total stream time. Currently PM registration is already maxed out with tons of people asking everyday for the cap to be raised. They have 9am pools and have 9 hours of stream time. As of posting, last I checked 64 had around 90-some odd people. I don't mean to be rude but they have more people with "less resources".

what we are asking for is the best tournament experience possible, and to be frank, when we're fed statements like "everything must be kept uniform" and then witness that next to nothing is kept uniform, we have less respect and less trust for anyone organizing these events.

Obviously, APEX wants you to have the greatest time possible as well. We want to include all our smash brothers. But let's talk realistically, we can't afford to offer you the same amenities as our other larger tournaments. You are players, we give you a space to play and enjoy each other's company. The tournament itself is not a walk in the park, it is cut throat and you must win to be the best. Simply put, everyone is adhering to the same format. No other community from the tournaments we are holding have voiced any opinion about bracket pools.

 

[R3N0]

As a community, we don't care about nice 1000s+ viewer streams. We don't really care about not being as exposed to the smash community as other games(though it is somewhat frustrating to have a MOD have better stream time+bigger pot bonus, and other NON-smash games also have a bigger pot bonus as well). We don't really care about being considered a side-event. Can't we just have our Round Robin Pools? It does not affect you in any way besides 'durr uniformity,' which is an obvious and blatant excuse to not comply with what the community wants, and it really is a simple request. We will have enough setups, and surely players would step up and volunteer for organizing, if t meant the pools we want.

No matter much in attempting to sway you though, it seems. You will likely continue being hard headed and resilient to reason, as proved by the earlier discussion. This is Smash 64's ONLY global-level event, and you won't even listen to its own community about the matter.

We plan with the resources we have. Just because you say there will be enough setups and surely players would step up does not mean it is so.

It is correct that no matter what argument you have, the answer will still be no RR pools. This decision was made for all games across the board, by the tournament host, and this will be upheld and is again non-negotiable.

This IS smash 64's only global-level event. So enjoy the time that you do have. At the end of RR pools, only 2 people will make it out, it is the same with bracket pools, except we cut the fat of having people who already have no chance of making it out, continue to play their matches and take up time. Just-Play-Friendlies! Or perhaps organize a secondary tournament after the main APEX sponsored one ends. You will have all of Saturday and Sunday to do it.

What gets me is that you come to a tournament that has their rules explicitly set, and you try to take over the tournament that they are running. You will have SO much time for side events and with that time you can have whatever you want, just without APEX resources (designated refs, stream time etc.)

 

[Han Solo]

"No other community from the tournaments we are holding have voiced any opinion about bracket pools"

Are you being serious? The Melee community loves RR pools. Just yesterday Juggleguy said on stream that he was thankful for Crimson Blur having RR pools for such a large tourney at KoC3. No one is complaining about bracket pools at Apex for the other tournies because their tournies last three days, are very large, and they had them last year.

The main point here is that we understand we're not going to get the same amenities as the other larger tournaments, but it also makes no sense for us to have a 9 hour tourney because of bracket pools if we have our own space and our own setups. The other communities don't care if we get RR pools. I've asked them. Us getting RR pools isn't "special treatment" when we're a side event with less entrants, less demand on stream, less pot bonuses, etc. If you fear people holding up pools because of multiple games, put them in different waves of pools. It's not hard. There might still be a few stragglers who will hold up pools, but it's not going to be a huge amount if you plan it right.

 

[R3N0]

I pose a question to you. Please explain to me why you want RR pools, and what it accomplishes in terms of tournament placing and play.

edit: Why does it matter what other communities think of 64 tournament? They have no stake in it. Of course they don't care. As the tournament host, we set out the rules, you either attend or you don't.

 

[Han Solo]

RR pools gives people more tournament matches, but that's obvious, right? You don't want to hear about how a random fox scrub who's going to his first tournament and wants to get better will get more tournament matches and tournament experience. You already know that.

Bracket pools cause more upsets which isn't a bad thing, but if you want to see the best players make it into a final double-elimination bracket, you want RR pools.

Personally, I want to see RR pools because 64 has NEVER had a tournament this big with RR pools. If we seed a top 32 bracket with RR pools results, it will literally be the most stacked bracket in 64 history. People will have bragging rights for making bracket at Apex (melee players still talk about getting out of round 3 pools at Genesis 2). You'll get great matches with bracket pools, but you'll get what everyone wants with RR pools.

This is what everyone wants, and we have the time to do it, but for no good reason at all, it's not being allowed.

 

[R3N0]

RR pools do give people more tournament matches. This however is not about that. This tournament is about who can consistently play the best in a high pressure situation. If top 2 people made it out of pools in every pool.. The results should reflect skill. There is no point of Joe Schmoe to lose 4 more matches or why the top seed in any pool needs to waste time playing Joe Schmoe. However, Joe Schmoe will have 1.5 days of uninterrupted friendlies with the top 64 players in the world. You play in a tournament to see where you stand.

You come to Apex, you follow apex rules. RR pools have it's place at smaller locals or regionals even, but this isn't the tournament for it. It's as simple as that. That is the last I will comment on RR pools. That is the point of a tournament. Who is the best, if you're not winning 1st them the rest doesn't matter.

 

[Han Solo]

"this isn't the tournament for it"

A max 128-man tournament not running RR pools? That's asinine.

"Who is the best, if you're not winning 1st them the rest doesn't matter."

Alright, Reno, when you get 1st in Melee singles, I'll tell you were right, and everything else doesn't matter.

 

[rjgbadger]

A tournament host's job isn't to make rules and force them to the game's community. Their job is host a tournament that is critically received as the best, by that game's community, while also keeping on time and organized. Doing what you're doing for the sake of being resilient is no different that what EVO did for Brawl in 2008 by having items despite the majority of the smash community being against it.

In the realm of competitive play, ssb64 can be a very high-variance game. a best of 3 can sometimes mask who the better player is in a set, and a Round Robin Pool of players shows who the best 2-3 players are in that pool. It also gives newer players a better opportunity for serious matches(which I understand should not be a reason in considering the quality of the pool format)

Using 'use our rules or don't attend' is a horrid statement to make, considering you also want all players to have the experience possible. Why deter players entirely when you can make what really is a simple change and have more players have a better experience, with a better turnout?

Most players of ssb64 do not watch or play other smash games, or other fighting games. We just want what we all know is the best for our community, and we would easily sacrifice the stream time+other 'amenities' for sake of having a better overall experience.

 

[xFats]

The answer to this dilemma is rather simple.

No.

 

[rjgbadger]

Very well then. We should instead have our own side tournament (like we already have for 64 doubles) with a round robin pools format. No stream time no APEX officials, no pot bonus, nothing besides our own setups and players as TO's. Its not like we can register for the real Apex tourney anyway, with the site being DDoS'd 24/7

 

[xFats]

This is like... really childish in nature.
If i cant have what i want, i will complain and do whatever i want to do!
Why are round robins, when you are going to have TWO FULL DAYS TO PLAY EVERYONE, such a big deal?

 

[MassiveMoo]

^If I don't agree with your point, I'm going to criticize and name-call. Do you see the irony xFats or is all you can see how right you think you are?

 

[Han Solo]

Read the thread. I really don't want to keep answering the same questions.

 

[xFats]

Dont know wher i name-called, but i sure as **** did criticize.
then i asked a question.
Answer the question? Your post added nothing to the discussion.
Why specifically is it that you want round robins played instead of bracket pools? If you can convince me specifically I'll see what i can do.
If not, then i'll just start name-calling!


I can't read.
i'm black.
falco isn't in ssb

double edit: Would you like to just run your own 64 event with your own rules? Granted you'd have no livestream, no event support, no space within the event's venue, and an overall downgrade of an entire experience for all those attending from out of country because (and this is where i become snarky and sarcastic) you want to go 1-5 instead of 0-2

 

[bloodpeach]

Your post added nothing to the discussion.

Well that's ironic.

In short:
SSB64 is getting shafted in stream time/quaity
SSB64 is getting shafted in scheduling
SSB64 is getting shafted in player cap
We've come to accept this; as a game with less players and viewers, it's reasonable that organizers would want to give us less of their resources.

However, we've been denied more tournament quality games because "all smash games are equal."
Even though 64 is treated as a side event in every other regard
Even though we have more than enough time and space
Even though the effect on the other games would be negligible (its always melee/brawl players holding up our brackets, never the reverse. Mainly because the vast majority of 64 players play only 64)

And on top of this, the staff has consitently been disrespectful and dismissive of our complaints.
Don't get us wrong, we appreciate the work you guys are doing. But when you get fed the same bs equality argument time and time again, and told if you dont like it you can go f**k yourself, people tend to become less respectful.

 

[MassiveMoo]

Dont know wher i name-called, but i sure as **** did criticize.
then i asked a question.
Answer the question? Your post added nothing to the discussion.
Why specifically is it that you want round robins played instead of bracket pools? If you can convince me specifically I'll see what i can do.
If not, then i'll just start name-calling!


I can't read.
i'm black.
falco isn't in ssb

I would agree with Han Solo's reasoning for RR pools.

No one is denying happiness about having 2 days for friendlies or outside tournaments. But that has no bearing on how good or bad the tournament system is.

To expound on the debate, I would propose that round robin pools are better at determining skill than the current setup is. Since ssb games are not very good at determining the better player (think falcon dittos/stage imbalances/counter picks) a far more accurate understanding of relative skill (skill relative to other players/who is better) should be verifiable by playing more games.

R3NO said the opposite. He said that playing under pressure is a better way to determine true skill. I would disagree. Pressure/nervousness is fixed with experience, not with skill. The better player, new to tournaments, could easily and perhaps even likely lose to a more experienced but worse opponent. Also, as Hal Solo said, it would give far more tournament experience to the players who made such a journey to attend. This is my argument for the superiority of RR pools.

Next, we need to make sure that there won't be any negative impacts from RR pools. There seems to be a consensus that everything necessary for RR pools is available. I would not want to hurt the other games' communities by switching our system to something better for us, but I don't understand how this change would negatively impact anyone else, except for jealousy, which I do not see as a valid reason.

In summation, I'm arguing that RR pools show true skill better than the current system, give more experience to players, and do not negatively impact Apex. I concede that I might be wrong. I probably don't have as much experience as you do, but just like you said, convince me and I'm all for whatever's best. That leads into the last things I wanted to say.

I appreciate that you said you'd see what you could do if you were convinced. Thank you for listening to arguments and being willing to try to help.
And lastly, when I said you were name calling I was referring to your "childish in nature" quote. I was trying to be clear, and wouldn't want to be throwing false allegations at you.

 

[Smelly Cat]

LOL.
#1 cf

 

[xFats]

Bloodpeach i respect the hell out of you for this post.
Thank you. I'll see what i can do.

edit: NOW I LOOK LIKE AN IMPATIENT AHOLE FOR EDITING IN SNARKY CRAP :<

once again, will see what i can do.

 

[Han Solo]

64 community: Hey, Apex staff, we have the time to run RR pools. Our numbers are perfect for it. It's what everyone wants. It sucks that you're giving us bracket pools when there's really no rationale behind it.

Apex staff: We'll take away the entire tourney if you don't stop complaining!

Edit:
Also, bloodpeach, I love you.

 

[R3N0]

Bloodpeach: I disagree, but i respect your argument.

I mean its fine that mr Han Solo wants to post name calling and rude posts on Facebook. That's no problem. He wants to vent in the most mature way possible.

But the fact of the matter is that the Apex staff didn't come up with the ruling that there are to be no RR pools. That leaves only the tournament host left that could have made the decision. You think I want to sit on the boards and argue with you? I don't really care for 64 RR OR NOT. I'm here to tell you what the ruling is and give you reasoning behind it.

You have never hosted a tournament of this magnitude, otherwise you would know something about ANYTHING.

And yes, if you don't get top 8, 9-128 can stay salty. Cause its as if you got 128th anyway. Hold that. I tried to be cordial at first but your incessant whining is getting ridiculous.

You have 2 days to do what you want, 9.5hrs of stream time. you go to a tourney and you adhere to the rules of the tournament. Roll up to evo or MLG, complain they don't have RR. Lol.

Instead of being grateful Apex is giving you space and is hosting the largest ssb64 tournament you bash the staff that is running it that enforce the rules of the tournament host.

You are great and so entitled.

I'm talking off script obviously. None of the above reflects the opinions of other Apex staff and are my own opinions.

 

[crismas]

I remember at Zenith when no one knew how to run RR cause you guys never had it before... and now you're demanding it. Seriously, I get the other complaints (maybe sans Stream time cause per schedule you have at least 10 hrs between Fri/Sat) but the RR thing is so trivial. Give bracket pools a chance, they're actually super hype and create real competition. Half the time in your RR pool you're going to be seeded to not make it out (unless you're a top), could possibly come against ties and other issues. Bracket pools give you a chance to really beat someone when it matters. It doesn't =/= a better tournament experience, it's just what you -think- will be create a better experience because you're playing a couple extra matches and you -might- make it out of pools. This is a competition, not a feel good about yourself event--these are my 100% honest thoughts when it comes to competition, I'm sorry if some don't agree. But play like you wanna win. I'm sorry this rule is being forced, I'm sorry that things aren't going the way you guys want. For the record PM AND 64 got the same pot bonus, why? Because of considerably less expected entrants (but that was assumed when we talked about bonuses but PM has proven to be insane :X). I just don't think because you guys are 64, therefore deserve RR. How is that fair? Don't you guys expect to cap? I just want to say this is a two way street, I never once felt compelled to reply to this thread initially given it's name. And Reno's not a jerk =/ he was just conveying the message to you all since you wanted a response.

And additionally... we can't do much about the site... we're trying and once again, I'm sorry. We're not having this done on purpose or keeping anyone from regging, it's just yea, thanks to based DDoS attacks it's not easy to keep the site up at all. I know you're all gonna have an insanely good time at Apex cause I know you guys have in previous years. I want to make things work for you all, and I'm willing to fix what I can (with the rest of staff ofc). But don't let the concept of RR ruin your experience.

 

[LLDL]

^And that pretty much wraps it up.

Additionally I don't appreciate the snide remarks of the site being attacked while trying to explain rational. That to me just seems like an irrelevant shot at something almost completely unrelated. DDoS is not just a site going down or failure to load, (or a tournament series ) Surely you understand that we're being attacked by someone or a group of people constantly? And if it frustrates you for not being able to register, which is understandable, know that my site being attacked at the most crucial time of the year point blank pisses me the **** off.

I would have loved to to RR this year guys, trust me, but we're going to make it work with Bracket pools and if you guys would like to do unofficial RR pools on your own time...with the remaining 64 players that are present(keep in mind that melee and brawl players also make up a large percentage of entrants and after they are gone they are eliminated they won't be playing with you anymore) you are welcome to do so.

Edit: I'll even help organize, print pool sheets, run them record etc, how does that sound?

 

[Han Solo]

I mean its fine that mr Han Solo wants to post name calling and rude posts on Facebook. That's no problem. He wants to vent in the most mature way possible.

What...
My name is Mark. Did you see a Mark posting rude things? I doubt it.

I remember at Zenith when no one knew how to run RR cause you guys never had it before... and now you're demanding it. Seriously, I get the other complaints (maybe sans Stream time cause per schedule you have at least 10 hrs between Fri/Sat) but the RR thing is so trivial. Give bracket pools a chance, they're actually super hype and create real competition. Half the time in your RR pool you're going to be seeded to not make it out (unless you're a top), could possibly come against ties and other issues. Bracket pools give you a chance to really beat someone when it matters. It doesn't =/= a better tournament experience, it's just what you -think- will be create a better experience because you're playing a couple extra matches and you -might- make it out of pools. This is a competition, not a feel good about yourself event--these are my 100% honest thoughts when it comes to competition, I'm sorry if some don't agree. But play like you wanna win. I'm sorry this rule is being forced, I'm sorry that things aren't going the way you guys want. For the record PM AND 64 got the same pot bonus, why? Because of considerably less expected entrants (but that was assumed when we talked about bonuses but PM has proven to be insane :X). I just don't think because you guys are 64, therefore deserve RR. How is that fair? Don't you guys expect to cap? I just want to say this is a two way street, I never once felt compelled to reply to this thread initially given it's name. And Reno's not a jerk =/ he was just conveying the message to you all since you wanted a response.

And additionally... we can't do much about the site... we're trying and once again, I'm sorry. We're not having this done on purpose or keeping anyone from regging, it's just yea, thanks to based DDoS attacks it's not easy to keep the site up at all. I know you're all gonna have an insanely good time at Apex cause I know you guys have in previous years. I want to make things work for you all, and I'm willing to fix what I can (with the rest of staff ofc). But don't let the concept of RR ruin your experience.

We get what bracket pools do. You don't have to keep defending bracket pools. If you see us saying the same things over and over again in regards to RR pools, it's because no one reads the rest of the thread. If you want to know why us getting RR pools isn't unfair, read the rest of the thread.

 

[Nintendude]

I think he meant to say cobr.

 

[R3N0]

What...

My fault, I thought that was you.

 

[Engo]

Some thoughts regarding RR pools and tournament organization in general(not just in 64):

It's funny that the apex staff always say stuff like what Crismas said about how Apex is "a competition not a feel-good about your self event". If you guys really mean this why is one of the main reasons you guys use for bracket pools that "even though you get eliminated quickly you have lots of time to play friendlies the rest of the weekend"? Believe it or not people go there for competition first of all, it's not a 3 day smash fest. If you were really serious about competition you'd cut down on friendlies and run 2 waves of pools which offers a real competitive and VERY challenging route to bracket. Not to mention it'll account for the questionable seeding that always happens at Apex(in Melee anyways). That to me is more serious competition and tournament organization than eliminating half the entrants as quickly as possible and then just idling around playing friendlies for the rest of the weekend. It's good competition, helps with seeding and provides a good experience to people of all levels.

At Big House 3, they ran 2 waves of RR pools and it was great. They cut down on friendlies a lot and had long periods where only tournament matches were going on but you know what it was awesome. It was exciting watching people make it through over a dozen competitors to make it into top 32. It seemed like a true accomplishment to make it into bracket. Thanks to the lack of friendlies at the beginning, the tournament went by smoothly and the second half of the tournament had TONS of friendlies. Great organization/competition and the overall experience wasn't compromised. Obviously BH3 is a much smaller tournament but good organization doesn't change and I truly believe there's things Apex can learn from tournaments like these (and KoC3 with 200+ attendants).

 

[CT Chia]

Well that's ironic.

In short:
SSB64 is getting shafted in stream time/quaity
SSB64 is getting shafted in scheduling
SSB64 is getting shafted in player cap
We've come to accept this; as a game with less players and viewers, it's reasonable that organizers would want to give us less of their resources.

However, we've been denied more tournament quality games because "all smash games are equal."
Even though 64 is treated as a side event in every other regard
Even though we have more than enough time and space
Even though the effect on the other games would be negligible (its always melee/brawl players holding up our brackets, never the reverse. Mainly because the vast majority of 64 players play only 64)

And on top of this, the staff has consitently been disrespectful and dismissive of our complaints.
Don't get us wrong, we appreciate the work you guys are doing. But when you get fed the same bs equality argument time and time again, and told if you dont like it you can go f**k yourself, people tend to become less respectful.

I didn't plan on posting in this thread since I already did my damnedest already on FB when the schedule launched, but I feel like a lot of things need to still be explained in this thread. I'll do my best to go about it objectively and explain everything as best of possible, then relate back to original points here, specifically those that I am quoting since they are laid out in the most... comprehensible fashion lol.

Apex has a number of main events. All of these events are what you can register from online. Beyond that, there are four headlining events - Melee, Brawl, Marvel, AE. It is obvious why these are chosen, they are the events that shatter attendance each year, and the indisputable biggest events of the respective communities. By being the headlining events, they have finals played on a special slot on Sunday, and have a boosted pot bonus. Outside of this, fact, every event (headlining included) all main events are treated the same. The only exception to this would be Melee and Brawl doubles not receiving a pot bonus. I don't have a specific answer to this, but I assume it has to do with a compromise of giving the singles events for the same games a massive bonus.

So then we decided the tournament format for the event. All events would run a bracket pool system that promotes to top 8 for their finals. For anyone questioning this method, this is essentially how Evo ran earlier this year for Melee. We had tested it at other events to determine the logistics about it, readied ourselves with countless hours of calculations and determining metrics. This is also very similar to how Apex ran last year for Melee and Brawl, but with some modifications. The only exception to this are the two Pokemon events, which are due to a massive difference in the community and how the games are played. TCG is ran in a Swiss format to a top cut 8 person (single elimination) finals, because literally every TCG event ever has ran Swiss. Note that a single set in TCG also takes 60+ minutes, which is why Bracket Pools don't necessarily make sense. Swiss is also one of the best tournament formats possible, but is never used in Smash due to the amount of set ups required to run it being entrants divided by 2. Pokemon does not require set ups so they are able to do this. As for VGC, while official events still run Swiss like TCG, we have ran past years in double elimination to run without issues, and Swiss is not feasible for this event due to the number of entrants in VGC that also enter other fighting game events (crossover for VGC is huge compared to TCG which is fairly minimal). Either way, these exceptions are mostly due to community differences. As for FGC, I can not speak to the exact specifics on it, but they do finish in a top 8 finals as well, and are ran logistically very different because they use set ups that are completely different from Smash, aka monitor vs crt TV.

We placed approximate caps when registration opened based on many factors. This was set based on the entrants of past Apexs, the logistics of running the game at the event and how it impends the event (Pokemon we frankly don't give a crap about caps since it can run at the same time as anything else since it doesn't require set ups outside of a table), and how the events are within the community over the past year. Furthermore, we tried to keep somewhat fair for the events in uniformity, and had Melee and Brawl at 512, and 64, PM, and Doubles at 128. The caps are needed heavily for scheduling purposes. We didn't intend on breaking any caps, but did so to Project M when the entrants for that game heavily exceeded expectations, as they shattered their first cap before the first venue price increase. If I'm not mistaken when they hit their 128 cap, 64 in comparison wasn't even halfway to their cap. Even further they are now at their cap of 256, yet 64 has yet to hit it's original cap.

We then set the format for the events. Remember they have to promote to a top 8, and each round needs a number of pools that is a power of 2. The following was set:

64 person event: 4 pools of 16 players each, promoting top 2 to a final 8.
128 person event: 4 pools of 32 players each, promoting top 2 to a final 8.
256 person event: 16 pools of 16 players each, promoting top 2 for 32 remaining players. 32 players then play in 4 pools of 8 players each, promoting top 2 to final 8.
512 person event: 32 pools of 16 players each, promoting top 2 for 64 remaining players. 64 players then play in 4 pools of 16 players each, promoting top 2 to a final 8.

So then that's how it was ran. You'll notice that 64, Melee Doubles, and Brawl Doubles are all running the exact same way, because they are 128 person events. PM was also the same way until it moved to a 256 person event. Melee and Brawl are designed as the 512 person event.

Then when we had the tournament formats, a schedule was created that balanced everything out and placed events according to many factors including (but not limited to):
-Stream time
-Limited disruption with other events
-Headlining finals on Sunday
-Venue hours of operation and reasonable timing
-Having 96 CRT TVs for tournament play


And that's that. Now to respond to the claims about 64...

"SSB64 is getting shafted in stream time/quaity
SSB64 is getting shafted in scheduling
SSB64 is getting shafted in player cap"

1. I don't see how, and it's quite the opposite. As Crismas pointed out, 64 has nearly 10 hours of time on stream. Literally every time their tournament is running, it's on stream somewhere. This is something that not even Project M has. Furthermore, the finals of 64 are on our largest stream (Spooky's) while PM, Doubles, and Pokemon are not. Yes, the time is early, but that's just how the schedule worked out unfortunately. Someone had to be there, and we can't really put you later due to the FGC finals going on for the large amount of the day due to the scheduling of their events, and it's not feasible to go FGC Finals > 64 Finals > FGC Finals. On the flip side, thankfully you guys don't start crazy early on Friday. On another note, AE finals start just as early as 64, but on Sunday.

2. I explained everything prior about scheduling. I just showed the reasoning for the early Saturday spot for finals, and the scheduling for everything beyond that is based on the tournament format and having 96 tournament TVs. Earlier in the day on Friday we have only Melee and Brawl running (literally using 48 TVs each), and start Project M and 64 once TVs open up as we wane down Melee and Brawl (notice there are fewer pools in wave 3 of M and B) to prepare them for their crew battle exhibitions.

3. I really don't feel this is the case, considering 64 has still yet to hit it's cap one month from the event. We didn't plan on increasing any caps, but only did for PM due to them literally shattering their cap so incredibly early. Had 64 been in a similar situation, we likely would have done the same. Believe me I would love to have no caps at the event, but it's not feasible for trying to fit it on 96 tournament set ups and essentially all done in Friday and Saturday. To note, the caps of the other 128 events (M and B Doubles) have also not been increased and are still 128.

 

[trash?]

it's almost like an event has to make more room for tournaments that have entries shattering main-game levels of numbers over a tournament that's barely hitting triple digits

you are not an oppressed group, stop trying to act like you are one

 

[R3N0]

Just want to put out there KOC 3 was a melee exclusive tournament and TBH3 only had melee and PM. Both of these tournaments are eclipsed by the sheer mass of people that are going to be showing up to APEX.

 

[bloodpeach]

How is that fair?

In the name of fairness, perhaps the staff could answer a few questions about the schedule for SSB64.
Why does SSB64 get only Top 4 guaranteed on stream when every others singles gets Top 8?
Why is SSB64 Top 4 on Saturday morning* when every other singles event gets a prime time slot?

It's really awesome that at the biggest US smash tournament, SSB64 gets treated worse than Tekken.

Also, where are you guys getting this 10hr stream time from? Top 4 is gonna struggle to break 1.5hrs, so are you assuming that 64 will be on stream constantly for all of Friday? That's a pretty big assumption. I suppose we were able to pull something similar off at Zenith, but afaik that was mainly due to GimR, who luck would have it isn't streaming at Apex.

Honestly, I personally think the much bigger issue is that 64 is given the short end of the stick in almost every possible category, barely treated better than Pokemon. But when the 64 community asks for any change, suddenly all smash games are equal. And if you have the nerve to complain reno calls you immature.

I'm sure there must be some good reasons for forcing SSB to have bracket pools. Hell, maybe there is a good reason for finals at 11AM or for only giving us half the guaranteed stream time as every other game. But at least be honest about it. It's pretty clear that fairness was a secondary concern at best when considering 64, and to have the staff repeat it as if it were the be all end all only makes the staff look malicious and incompetent, which I'm sure you guys are not. (also, reno is really not helping your case)

EDIT: I didn't see Chibo's post until after I posted this. It seems that there's a lot of information I don't have.

 

[trash?]

so can the SSB64 community only talk in victim cards, even when they have more stream time than games far bigger than it

 

[SheerMadness]

I dislike that some ssb64 players on here are sounding so ungrateful.

Apex is the best thing to happen to console ssb64 probably ever. You bring us way more exposure and entrants than were be able to garner with our own tourneys.

I think some people need to lay off a bit.

We do want RR pools though. Given that were required to essentially finish our event in one day while the other smash games have all 3 days I don't think it's unreasonable time wise.

But It's not a big issue for me to go the extremes of insulting/badgering the Apex staff. I want ssb64 at every Apex in the future. Being ungrateful and insulting towards the staff is not the way to achieve that.

 

[CT Chia]

Why does SSB64 get only Top 4 guaranteed on stream when every others singles gets Top 8?

Who the hell said only top 4 is on stream???

We do want RR pools though. Given that were required to essentially finish our event in one day while the other smash games have all 3 days I don't think it's unreasonable time wise.

This isn't the case with the amount of set ups we have to work with, which is also why we can't increase caps.

 

[crismas]

For those you wondering where I'm getting the number "10" from in terms of hours of streaming.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0rI_h-FooBPUWlid0k1YzFPNEU/edit

 

[SheerMadness]

This isn't the case with the amount of set ups we have to work with, which is also why we can't increase caps.

You're not counting all the set ups the ssb64 itself will provide.

Which will be a ton. Like last year.

 

[R3N0]

Also, where are you guys getting this 10hr stream time from? Top 4 is gonna struggle to break 1.5hrs, so are you assuming that 64 will be on stream constantly for all of Friday? That's a pretty big assumption. I suppose we were able to pull something similar off at Zenith, but afaik that was mainly due to GimR, who luck would have it isn't streaming at Apex.

You have close to 10 hrs stream time as dictated by our schedule of events..., smash 64 will be on stream as soon as they start playing on Friday. They will also have around 3 hrs of stream time dedicated solely for finals. Also 64 will be top 8.

Honestly, I personally think the much bigger issue is that 64 is given the short end of the stick in almost every possible category, barely treated better than Pokemon. But when the 64 community asks for any change, suddenly all smash games are equal. And if you have the nerve to complain reno calls you immature.

Please read Chibo's post. After explaining it 3+ times in this thread, to continue to complain about it is immature.

Why is SSB64 Top 4 on Saturday morning* when every other singles event gets a prime time slot?

Because every other game gets more people. SSF4AE is starting at the same time as 64, on Sunday morning. Try again.


Now that you have 1. Apex Staff, 2. Chibo, 3. Crismas, 4. Nintendude tell you that RR is not going to happen, who else would you like to hear it from?
I know it's unprofessional of me to be this frank, but I'm a smasher too and I'm going to be participating in events while working the event. You frankly have no idea other than attending and whining about what it means to run a tournament.