The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset

[B.A.M.]

i like this Chis.

for jab combo i would like to know that it also leaves people in that weird sliding hitstun to landing lag. due to this particular hitstun sonic can get relatively close to the opponent before they can react. Which sets people up for a 50/50. It also causes a knockdown at 80-90% which can lead into a jab lock/ techchase/ BDacus follow up.

Can someone tell me the frame advantage we get from this move. Is there anyone who can teach me how to find this info at least? I would do it if i knew how.

 

[NCdabess]

I cant believe I just remembered this now, Ill show you what would be a great idea. Ill go find it...

I have suggested this before, idk if its too much trouble to format etc though
http://bbow.freehostia.com/basics.html
Granted I have no idea how to make such a thing but it does look

Sorry i'm on my phone which doesnt like for me to quote posts. Anyway,even a newbie at html/css could make a website like that. With that being said,i could make a website similar/identical to the one you mentioned if it would benefit you all.what do i get out of this?im still a sonic newbie so the information contained in the guide would be more than enough to compensate for a few hours of my time.i figured this would be the best way to contribute to the guide since i obviously dont know any at's and such.

 

[B.A.M.]

u sir are a great man

 

[NCdabess]

I can get a co.cc domain name for free forever(eg.www.sonic.co.cc) or if you would prefer a forum based kind of website(like this) then i could make one like that. The first option would be more like the wario website mentioned before

 

[Tesh]

That sites looks alright and all, but isn't the point of smashboards to have all the information here? If its just for backup when smashboards crashes, we would just copy paste the finished project onto AiB forums.

It doesn't need to be fancy, it just needs to me organized and helpful.

 

[NCdabess]

That sites looks alright and all, but isn't the point of smashboards to have all the information here? If its just for backup when smashboards crashes, we would just copy paste the finished project onto AiB forums.

It doesn't need to be fancy, it just needs to me organized and helpful.

thats true.but if they decide to go through with it then i'd be more than happy to help.

 

[Browny]

Moar because I'm bored

Dtilt:
A single sweep with average range and shield-stabbing potential if the enemies shield is low. 3 different knockbacks for different parts of the attack. At maximum range where only the tip of Sonic's shoe connects, the move has a high probability to knock the opponent away at a slight angle below the horizontal and a low probability to cause a trip, tech chase follow-up potential only. At mid range, the attack pops the enemy up just infront of sonic and at close range sends them just behind Sonic. At low %, true combo follow ups from a dtilt exist such as dtilt-dtilt, dtilt-jab, dtilt-grab. Sonics most reliable 'combo' initiator is best used at low % and especially on fast-fallers who can not escape the dtilt-dtilt-repeat chain. At moderate and above %'s where no true follow up potential exists, ftilt is the superior move due to relative safety on block.

I'm not sure on the specifics of all that, but I think its right...

 

[Chis]

i like this Chis.

for jab combo i would like to know that it also leaves people in that weird sliding hitstun to landing lag. due to this particular hitstun sonic can get relatively close to the opponent before they can react. Which sets people up for a 50/50. It also causes a knockdown at 80-90% which can lead into a jab lock/ techchase/ BDacus follow up.

Do you have any videos showing this? I haven't played brawl in a long time so...

Can someone tell me the frame advantage we get from this move. Is there anyone who can teach me how to find this info at least? I would do it if i knew how.

No idea :/

Moar because I'm bored

Dtilt:
A single sweep with average range and shield-stabbing potential if the enemies shield is low. 3 different knockbacks for different parts of the attack. At maximum range where only the tip of Sonic's shoe connects, the move has a high probability to knock the opponent away at a slight angle below the horizontal and a low probability to cause a trip, tech chase follow-up potential only. At mid range, the attack pops the enemy up just infront of sonic and at close range sends them just behind Sonic. At low %, true combo follow ups from a dtilt exist such as dtilt-dtilt, dtilt-jab, dtilt-grab. Sonics most reliable 'combo' initiator is best used at low % and especially on fast-fallers who can not escape the dtilt-dtilt-repeat chain. At moderate and above %'s where no true follow up potential exists, ftilt is the superior move due to relative safety on block.

I'm not sure on the specifics of all that, but I think its right...

Thanks Browny. It seems like you got everything.

 

[~TBS~]

Jab is gewd. Cant really input anymore since Chis covered everything. I just like the fact that on PS1, it becomes a lock (someone correct me on this if im wrong) once the mountain terrain appears and you get someone caught in it. Im not entirely sure if its a lock, but i caught people with this (in tourney), and they did not get out until the last hit of the jab pushes them away because they have too much %

 

[Chis]

Was it that thing KID was talking about a while ago? Could you explain it a bit more? Did you just keep doing the whole jab combo again and again in the corner or something? Can't they just Smash DI out?

 

[~TBS~]

I think so Chis. Like, once you get someone backed into a wall and catch them with a jab combo, just keep holding down A once sonic does the last hit of the jab, and repeat. I think they can SDI out if you are too close to them, but if you space properly during the setup, they cant get out afaik. Need to test this. :s

 

[Kupo Rose]

Feels like all I do is link videos :|

Kinzer made a vid about that jab combo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXy8Ol-5hyw

 

[Chis]

Thank you. I'll just add it in now.

 

[BSP]

Make sure that you note that Sonic's Jab 1 and 2 IIRC can both lock, although it's harder to keep 1-2,1-2,1-2 going than 1,1,1,1. Jab 3 also will push the opponent along the ground at low damage. For example, on BF, you nair an opponent off the platform, jab combo them, and then punish the forced get up.

 

[B.A.M.]

do u want a vid Chis for the jab knock down at high percents?

NVM here u go Chis its in this old vid somewhere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTM_5RVJkPE

dtilt chain> stuff is obviously good. dtilt also is our best techable jablock setup at 80-90% causing a quick knockdown similar to falco's ftilt. It also at the very least allows a tech chase, combos into BDacus unless teched. also iono what ppl are saying regardling ftilt being safer on shield. dtilt has shorter cool down and because of its movement properties, it lets u get close enough to do ur fastest buffered attack aka jab.

dtilt gives us approximately +4 or 5 frame advantage to which we can do nothing with lol. however that means if utilt or fair/uair (talking about the first hitbox) is buffered out of it mid percents the only thing to fear really is an AD. Now i have been testing a bit here and there and i think SH ff uair > utilt and FH ff uair> utilt are frame traps. If this is true then we could guarantee damage from regular dtilt mid percents as well!

tipper dtilt not only gives us our best techable jablock, but it gives us a ton of frame advantage up until it begins to knockdown. Now i believe that BDacus at certain percents true combos into tipper dtilt, as well as a perfectly spaced dash attack out of a buffered dash. Again testing by myself has been done so i know if its not a true combo it is at least close to being so frame wise. If someone could help we with this that could help a ton.

In any case dtilt is one of our top combo starters, and sets up good combos. People need to use it more.




EDIT: tipper dtilt tends to have a high trip percentage early percents. One of our best true combos is bair>tipper dtilt (trip)> uthrow. ( we can also get bair>dtilt chain> stuff but its harder)

 

[Browny]

Whilst thats good BAM, it doesnt serve too much use until its put into a form we can use for the guide. Seeing as dtilt is a bit more interesting than most of sonics moves we could probably have a bigger description for it, but I think you should try to make all that stuff you said a lot more concise and fit it to a second paragraph after what I said (as in, no need to repeat the things I already wrote).

 

[Chis]

Good stuff BAM but I’m thinking that it’s a tad too much for people who are just picking up the character. I’m sure we can put that in the later sections for the more technical stuff though. Also what Browny said.

Now moving on to Up tilt.

A double kick which oddly hits 3 times. It has poor horizontal range but good vertical range, making it a somewhat useful anti air attack. This is tied with Fsmash as Sonic's most damaging move, however its poor horizontal range and lag after using the move hinders its usefulness greatly. A move which fits little niches like being a follow up for D tilt at low percentages or a follow up from an up throw 0% on some characters. Becomes a kill option at really high percentages?


This thread is still great btw: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195863

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I was actually considering making a very basic guide along the lines of this KoF Tutorial vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3KVgI1LvU

Well, not so basic as regarding to shielding and recovering (maybe) but, yeah, way more "newbie friendly" than most tutorial vids out there.

 

[Tesh]

Have you guys seen the mario video guide? They have a video menu on youtube that lets you link through the moveset and ATs. Its really good.

Only the last hit of uptilt has good vertical range and its frame 17 isn't it? The power of a tilt, with the speed of a smash.

 

[BSP]

The second kick of U tilt has a pretty good vertical range disjoint.

Sonic's utilt is the most damaging in the game discounting Nana and Popo doing their utilts together. Utilt works really well after Late hit of dash attack as well.

As a KO move, it kills Puff at about 140% IIRC...so it's not very good for killing. I would use for damaging purposes, or abusing its vertical disjointedness.

 

[Tesh]

The second kick of U tilt has a pretty good vertical range disjoint.

Sonic's utilt is the most damaging in the game discounting Nana and Popo doing their utilts together. Utilt works really well after Late hit of dash attack as well.

As a KO move, it kills Puff at about 140% IIRC...so it's not very good for killing. I would use for damaging purposes, or abusing its vertical disjointedness.

2nd kick is okay I guess, I guess I just hate Utlit compared to upair. Sonic has the worst uptilt in the game. Every other uptilt can kill well like DDD and Snake, combo well like luigi and squirtle, or does an extreme amount of damage like Ganondorf (27%). Its less useful as anti air than uair and has no follow up potential really.

 

[Browny]

Is there ever a situation where dtilt-utilt will work when dtilt-grab (uthrow) wont?

Thats about the only situation I can think of where utilt would be the best move to use :/
use this pic for utilt though imo
http://i25.tinypic.com/30tq9ok.jpg

 

[BSP]

2nd kick is okay I guess, I guess I just hate Utlit compared to upair. Sonic has the worst uptilt in the game. Every other uptilt can kill well like DDD and Snake, combo well like luigi and squirtle, or does an extreme amount of damage like Ganondorf (27%). Its less useful as anti air than uair and has no follow up potential really.

Wow, I totally forgot about Ganon lol. But it is extremely easy to get hit out of Ganon's, just saying.

But I agree on utilt's low versatility compared to uair. I would focus on it mainly for damage.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

I've noticed that the first hit on sonic's utilt has like a semi spike too it. becuz a lot of the times i use it when someone were to like short-hop or try to jump they'd get pushed back down to the ground. if only we were able to cancel the move before the second hit sonic would have a spike move :S. I still don't know why they gave the first hit that property.

 

[memphischains]

dtilt > uptilt > dsmash

 

[Chis]

I was actually considering making a very basic guide along the lines of this KoF Tutorial vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3KVgI1LvU

Well, not so basic as regarding to shielding and recovering (maybe) but, yeah, way more "newbie friendly" than most tutorial vids out there.

Have you guys seen the mario video guide? They have a video menu on youtube that lets you link through the moveset and ATs. Its really good.

Only the last hit of uptilt has good vertical range and its frame 17 isn't it? The power of a tilt, with the speed of a smash.

Maybe we could do that after the guide is finished. I remember Kojin saying that he was going to do a video guide but that never materialised.

Is there ever a situation where dtilt-utilt will work when dtilt-grab (uthrow) wont?

Thats about the only situation I can think of where utilt would be the best move to use :/
use this pic for utilt though imo
http://i25.tinypic.com/30tq9ok.jpg

Yeah and bair and uair usually do a better job against those who approach by the air then utilt does.

I've noticed that the first hit on sonic's utilt has like a semi spike too it. becuz a lot of the times i use it when someone were to like short-hop or try to jump they'd get pushed back down to the ground. if only we were able to cancel the move before the second hit sonic would have a spike move :S. I still don't know why they gave the first hit that property.

I've never heard of that before. It was probably bad DI.

Should we mention the sliding utilt or save it for later? And does anyone else have anything else to say or should we move on to the more intersting ftilt :O

And Browny's pic reminds me of something. Who can take pictures of Sonic's moves? And what size will they be?

 

[Kinzer]

It isn't bad DI, I've seen UTilt send opponents down just a split second before the other hits connect.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

^^^^^^^^ yea this occurs mostly towards the tip of his foot. if we could only manage to get that spike effect when someones at a high % then sonic would have a legit spike move to use on ppl.

 

[Tesh]

If it does actually spike, its likely set or low knockback to make sure the hits always combo into the 3rd. If only Upsmash had that, we might have another decent kill move. Uptilt is probably sonic's worst move, we should move on.

 

[Browny]

Who can take pictures of Sonic's moves? And what size will they be?

Anyone with a wii, copy of brawl and an SD card reader can... (either using a digital camera -> upload to PC or an inbuilt reader like a laptop)

Id like to think that most people here have at least one of the two :/ I can do it anyway.

all screenshots are 640x480 btw

 

[Tesh]

Can't we just use the ones with the hitbubbles shown?

 

[Trent]

The ones with the hitbubbles are inaccurate.

 

[Tesh]

Really? then what was the point?

 

[Browny]

They had a very good point... showing the hitboxes is interesting.

Unfortunately they couldnt foresee things like scaling issues on attacks with body parts that grow (many of Sonics attacks have this)

 

[Kinzer]

If it does actually spike, its likely set or low knockback to make sure the hits always combo into the 3rd. If only Upsmash had that, we might have another decent kill move. Uptilt is probably sonic's worst move, we should move on.

I would contest for Homing Attack being worse.

UTilt is not something you jut throw out there and expect it to hit. It's vertical range is decent, use it when you know your opponent has to land somewhere close to you and everything else is either too slow or too weak to punish the landing with.

Want a good example of a read? I killed Espy with it when he tried to Homing Attack me to get back on stage. I know it's a bad example but replace "Homing Attack" with any committed attack and you got yourself a nice set-up.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

well u can use HA after a spin dash to footstool and it's almost a guaranteed hit. But u have to buffer the HA so that way when the opponent hit the floor for the footstool he gets hit before he can roll or getup. i've tested it out on alot of characters the only one to have a slight problem with landing the technique is snake MK kirby and jiggs. But they do still work just rly matter how fast u can get the HA to come out and cancel that startup lag.

 

[Tesh]

Homing attack can be used for recovery (can go further than spring) and slightly improve sonic's gimp game in certain situations. There is really no attack so committed that they have to land within the pathetic horizontal range of uptilt and yet so fast that you can't hit with something else. I'm not saying its impossible to land it if you try, but its not nearly as useful as any other move. It takes a backseat to another move in almost every situation.

 

[Kinzer]

That's...precisely why you don't punish opponents that are next to you or on the same level you are.

Use it to punish committed attacks above you. This would be easier to picture if we had Snake's UTilt, but alas we work with what we have, since Sonic has his UTilt...

You can't tell me something like Snake's Nair coming down on you isn't asking for an UTilt. :X Sonic only pulls back so much from FSmash. :/

Besides, if we wanted to be real "debative" about this, I could also say that with as laggy as Homing Attack is, your opponent could attack you while you're trying to recover with it and hit you when you can't airdodge or attack. Even though both are lackluster, they do have their uses. ;~; Though I just want to get the point across that UTilt can and should be utilized. I suppose if I can bring myself to do so, I could think of a small write-up for Utilt, which may be better than arguing points against it, yada yada yada.

 

[Chis]

Anyone with a wii, copy of brawl and an SD card reader can... (either using a digital camera -> upload to PC or an inbuilt reader like a laptop)

Id like to think that most people here have at least one of the two :/ I can do it anyway.

all screenshots are 640x480 btw

Thanks Browny. Is it possible to make them a little smaller though? :O

Write ups are good Kinzer.

Might as well continue with the homing attack discussion. It’s not terribly important to keep things in order anyways.

Homing attack just flat out sucks. It’s so easy to see coming and to punish afterwards. If the opponent sees you trying to use it to recover all they have to do is side step to screw you over. Or if they’re recovering and you’re trying to gimp them with it, attack you out of it or air dodge. All it’s good for is gimping on the rare occasion and stalling high above the stage when you need more time.

 

[Tesh]

I'm just saying that homing attack at times will serve a purpose that no other move can accomplish as well. The vertical distance on a lock-on sends sonic as high or higher than spring (and then you can still spring). SH aerials accomplish everything uptilt could ever hope to accomplish and then some. Like I said, if you want to land it, you can. Its not a completely hopeless move. Its just not better than any of sonic's other moves (IMHO).

Homing attack only shines offstage, but thats something at least. Does anyone know exactly what frame it locks onto a target? I can't recall ever being in range of someone and having them spotdodge on reaction to avoid the lock-on.