Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
It appears that you are using ad block :'(
Hey, we get it. However this website is run by and for the community... and it needs ads in order to keep running.
Please disable your adblock on Smashboards, or go premium to hide all advertisements and this notice. Alternatively, this ad may have just failed to load. Woops!
Has anybody mentioned how the Spring Coil tends to work unusually well out of a Spin Dash Jump as a follow-up?
For some reason, I think it has something to do with how the opponent's shield is drained, and then the coil hits the opponents' exposed bodies.
Either that, or because so many people expect that Sonic can't follow up after a Spin Dash Jump, they drop their shield in hops of a counter-attack, and the Spring comes out only to knock them away.
Of course it requires taking a risk, but it's one I've found to work in my favor a lot of the times for some [perhaps unexplained] reason.
Yeah I'm sorry, I haven't really been contributing to the community guide up until now after a long hiatus. I hope my shieldstun frame data can come in use when it comes to quick/certain follow-ups on block though.
Would I be right in saying that if anyone is in the middle of the their animation during their aerial attack or airdodge, and bounces on a Spring, the remainder of the animation is disregarded and anyone can do any aerial, special, or airdodge immediately? Sonic can pull this off himself with repeated Dairs on the Spring, but I'm not sure if everyone can do every none of their available moves, or if there is any lag from the bounce.
If they can, and someone tries to take someone up with him with Spring, it's good to mention that anyone with fast, wide, and powerful aerials can swat you for doing it. Luckily, Sonic is invincible for the 1st 1/3 of the bounce, and he can airdodge in between the bounce, so he can maneuver around any counter-offense, provided the aerial isn't too fast.
I don't think we should be going beyond the mechanics of each move in this section. Later on we can delve deeper into the uses of each mechanic and how to tactically apply them. We should just be explaining how each move works in this part. Right?
If you're confident in landing safely I think its a neat way to prevent being punished immediately after a shielded rising fair/uair. The spring coil basically provides you with a "shield" of sorts that would either hit them if they try to punish the move, or clash with some particular attacks (pretty sure it does anyway, mind's blank on the matter). Should also poke in a similar manner to what Kinzer suggested if they try and remain in shield.
well spring> dair works depending on the placing on the shield. Anyways like Tesh said; basics. Its basically a get out of jail free card when pressured. At the very least you can space bair for safe landing AD> buffer somthing or dair stall. Dang I havent posted in a decade.
this thread reminded me... I gotta practice reverse spring-dairing more.
I use spring-dair a lot but typically when I know someone is going to try and usmash me, as a safe way to hit them out of an airdodge or something as I land so im generally pretty safe.
I'm also wondering, exactly how punishable is a reverse spring-dair? Is it possible for the enemy to consistantly react to the spring and be able to punish the dair if they have to wait until you are just about to begin the the dair to figure out in which direction the dair will go? I think its a bit more difficult to react to than super theory bros might suggest >_>
well as a sonic player, I can usually identify which times a person would want to dair away, since you pretty much want to always put the spring between where you are going to land and your opponent.
plus i dont find it super hard to react to. since all I have to do is wait until the sonic dairs and I know for sure which way hes going and just hit the controll stick toward him and hit the c stick up (fox and falco)
You can plant springs underneath recover platforms, so people who have habits of going straight down after being KO’d will waste time in the air and thus waste their temporary invincibility.
Pop someone into the air with the final hitbox of Sonic’s dash attack and quickly use the spring. Follow it up with a Uair for a star KO attempt. Or you could do something else. Usually works 100% and above.
You can foot stool people after using the spring. Helpful when someone is ledge hogging you. Just foot stool them and jump onto the stage. That’s if they don’t have invincibility. We all know about air tripping. A jump will reset Sonic’s spring and solve the problem.
Using the reverse spring is a good idea if you’re in the air already and what to hit an opponent who's infront of you with Bair.
EY Tenki you already know Ive been on your spring cancelled aerials all day. Dair<Spring cancel bair ftw. Yeah and Espy has got it spot on, i always go for dair on a grounded footstool. Which is really nice when you have someone landcamping you spring. Besides noone should be interrupting your spring>dair anyways. You should be doing it around dash distance away from them so that if they dash they will hit the spring and by that time u are safe. Spring> dair can be done safely, just dont be stupid about it.
and Tesh, you would be suprised how that can work offline lol. I think i got even M2k with that bs lol. Definitely not recommended though.
DOUBLE POST: for the random questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the spring. Does bair>dash fair true combo like bair>dashgrab? It seems like it does. And does anyone know if ur opponent SDIs down out of fair how long they are in stun if any? Because I just started playing again I was using this string: ff bair> sh fair>first hit uair> full hop uair> stuff ( mainly buffered bair). I know first hit uair> full hop uair true combos and ff bair>sh fair seems to do the same. Theres a spacing for small characters like Meta where they fall out of fair so I like to punish it with the first hit uair shenanigans.
also, from playing wolf, i realised, the combo potential of bair is completely dependant on which way your moving in the air when you hit with it.
if your retreating and you bair, you wont be able to combo it in to anything, but if your moving toward the guy, you can pretty much do what ever you want.
Damage: Falling Spring: 4% fresh, dwindles to 2% when fully staled. Grounded Spring: No damage
Range: A grounded Spring does no damage, but the “range” for a character to bounce up from it is as wide as the Spring is. A falling Spring has range as large as the Spring itself, with little to no disjoint.
Frame Data:
Description: Sonic’s ultimate recovery move, serving virtually the same role as it does in the Sonic games, which is to propel Sonic in the direction the Spring is facing, in this case, straight up. Boasting one of, if not the highest vertical acceleration speed out of anything in the game, accompanied with invincibility during the first third of the bounce, the Spring flings Sonic a considerable distance in the air, about ¾ up Final Destination from the ground, and provides Sonic with a safe recovery method to use with little fear of a counterattack. The Spring puts Sonic in a special fall animation that still enables him to use his aerial attacks and his airdodge (but not his special moves), which means that Sonic is not left utterly defenseless as he falling back to earth. The Spring has different properties depending on where it is used: the distance covered from a Spring used in the air is slightly less than the distance a grounded Spring gives. A grounded Spring also allows other characters to bounce on it, giving them the same height as Sonic gets. A grounded Spring lasts on the ground for about 3 seconds, whereas a falling Spring loses its hitbox when it hits the ground. The horizontal distance Sonic can achieve during his descent can be increased if he uses an aerial that is not Dair during the apex of his bounce. Sonic can still wall jump and footstool opponents during his special fall animation, and can even “footstool” opponents grabbing onto the ledge.
The Spring can be used for more than just for recovery. Since Sonic is invincible during the first bit of the bounce, the Spring can be used as a safe way to simply get away from an opponent if he’s feeling pressured, though he will have to be careful when he’s descending. The Spring can be used during a Spin Dash Jump, which almost always tacks on an extra bit of damage if it’s used at the end of a Spin Dash combo. The Spring is also used as a gimping tool for characters who either require momentum to get back to the ledge, such as Link, or characters who have rather straight-forward recoveries that a Spring can intercept for just a bit of extra damage, such as Marth, Ike, and DK.
One common use of the Spring is for the ever-popular “Uthrow -> Spring -> Uair” combo, and while this is being commonly DIed now, the boost provided by the Spring still provides a form of pressure for characters who are high in the air and are trying to descend, as they have to worry about Uair’s disjoint netting Sonic an earlier kill than usual. A sparsely used, very risky tactic with the grounded Spring uses the same concept; if the opponent is about to land right above him, Sonic can use the invincibility granted from the Spring to thrust him and the opponent high in air, shrug off any knockback from the aerial the opponent uses, and hit right back with a Uair, possibly scoring a KO.
The Spring does have a few particular flaws. Because Sonic cannot use his special moves after a Spring, and so cannot use another Spring or his other special moves that manipulate his position, he’s susceptible to being attacked or grabbed at his landing spot since his aerial acceleration is low, and thus can’t change directions quickly. Sonic is also prone to being Cypher-grabbed, ala Snake, if he uses Spring too low and is grabbed when his invincibility wears out (there is no auto-ledgegrab feature during his bounce animation); unlike Snake, Sonic has no way to get back on the stage once grabbed if he’s offstage. Another very minor flaw is Air Tripping, where Sonic lands on stage before going into his fall animation. Sonic has to go through this animation (or get hit) to get his Spring back, so if he jumps again, he’ll go right into the fall animation and can’t use his special moves, which could be fatal if the Sonic is not aware of this and tries to gimp someone.
Overall, the Spring is one of the better recovery moves of the game, and one that, albeit should be primarily used for recovery, can be used to some effect in some situational circumstances. Sonic has to be wary about using this move on a whim to recover, as he has his other specials to make it back as well, but Sonic can, and most likely will, make it back onstage when using this.
Putting springs underneath DK as hes about to land is both hilarious and extremely easy to do.
Im unsure of the risk:reward potential though of how it would work vs a DK player who predicts it. At most % a normal fair/uair/grab out of his landing it safe enough but for a surprise KO with spring-uair/bair/fair it can work :O
Putting springs underneath DK as hes about to land is both hilarious and extremely easy to do.
Im unsure of the risk:reward potential though of how it would work vs a DK player who predicts it. At most % a normal fair/uair/grab out of his landing it safe enough but for a surprise KO with spring-uair/bair/fair it can work :O
His uair beats everything we've got in that position. He can also upB to cancel upward momentum, and grab the ledge of the level before we can get there safely.
It's almost never recommended to grounded upB a DK.
The write-up felt incomplete to me without that last paragraph to close it off, but that could just be me and my adherence to writing structure. I wanted to reinforce the fact that the Spring not only gives Sonic a strong recovery option, but also an option to use for just about anything else.
If you want me to do any write-ups for previously-discussed moves that don't have one yet, I could do so.
If you're NOT in the jump-less fall state, landing on a spring will give back your double jumps. It's one way to counter the anthinus combo, since, by double jumping out of spring, you end up lower than Sonic. That said, if a Sonic uses spring and another Sonic uses it under him, then it extends the vulnerable bounce even longer lol. I'm not sure if this extends to Snake/Pit/GAW though.
As far as spring-cancelled aerials are concerned, dj out of spring makes it possible to actually link moves together lol.
lol man you guys dont use the spring or what? Step up ur spring trickies. And yes like Tenki said, we get can actually link aerials with the addition of our double jump. Ive done dair>fair> uair and dair>uair>uair before. Spring too goods. You can can spinshot to a spring then spinshot again. Quite fun. but yes spring restores all jumps unless you are in fall special state.
EDIT: o and about the bair spacing KID, thats where we can get dumb stuff like bair>dtilt lock> grab. or bair> ftilt. heck you could bair> dash>fullhop uair> stuff (fair is the best unless they di towards then id go with another uair so if they AD u get a nair). You know itd be good to know how much hit stun the opponent is in on low percentage bairs, just to see our entire range of options.............cuz we have a ton. Anyone?
Unless you want to verify that it was auto-grabbed during the initial part of the animation?
Another very minor flaw is Air Tripping, where Sonic lands on stage before going into his fall animation. Sonic has to go through this animation (or get hit) to get his Spring back
It's tied with his quickest aerial, and Sonic takes 6 frames to jump. Taking that into consideration, it'll take Sonic 10 frames for him to Uair OoS. Grab is faster but is severely limited in range and cooldown lag. Fair doesn't quite have the reach, and Bair is slower for it's power and range. Even if Uair doesn't hit, you will be able to act quick enough that an opponent must have a quick punisher, and possibly predict the Uair to attack you before you can recoil for another assault or retreat for a stronger defensive.
Nevermind OoS, Uair has probably the most far-reaching Uair vertically that isn't a weapon. It alone can hit certain characters out of their Down airs (with a somewhat strict timing of course), and it traps opponents in the air if they try to airdodge through. Note that Sonic is the 6th fastest character in the air; so chasing some characters; and even doing circles around others, isn't out of the realm of possibility. That's just for air-to-air pursuits too, Uair is fast enough to allow you to short hop it on the ground and you can be where your opponent will be landing around the same time they would be and from there it's just a matter of prediction.
A couple of character also do not really like being in the air, so using Uair to send them back up/keeping them there could get more damage than simply a hard punish like a forward smash on their landing.
I'm not sure if you want to go over the application of Uair in doubles where Sonic can practically use it to save his teammate, due to Uair doing negligable damage, and its kill power is relatively weak enough to never kill your partner unless they happen to be at a ridiculously high % (talking 250% here). That's the just the second hit of course, the first hit of Uair will always do 3% damage or less and unless your partner cannot recover from a stage spike or something like that... and it's already a given that Sonic can be just about anywhere and he should be able to make it back onstage himself.
There are probably some platform shenanigans you can do with Uair, but I'm not well-versed in that department. I'd like somebody else to cover that for me if they can.
Since the first hit of Uair has set knockback, a FF Uair true combos into an uptilt if you use Uair as you're falling right on top of the opponent, and only the first hit of the Uair comes out. This gives 17% damage, and can be used as kill set up around the 180% area.
the thing sonic storm mentioned also comboes in to grab on characters that fall fast or are heavy, and you can even pull out a nair/fair or even another up air if you so choose.
A while back I was trying to undergo a project on finding out when everyone dies to uptilt on FD and Green Greens, so that everyone would know when the Uair -> Utilt combo could be employed for the kill.
The problem was that my irl test partner had no concept of DI whatsoever, and my wifi test partner, Kofu, couldn't get the DI input right under the shaky connection we used to have. Best I ever got was killing Jigglypuff at 147% and Mario at 192% on FD, lol.
Now that I have Chozo and a more stable connection, I'm thinking of restarting this project again, with FD, Battlefield's and Halberd's platforms, and Green Greens platforms as stage subjects. It'd give us some food for thought on one of Sonic's high-percent true combos and give us something to strive for if Bair is too stale.
I'm sorry I've been out of the loop, but here I am now!
First, the intro kind of needs fixing. Not because I don't necessarily like what I originally posted for an intro, but because there's a bunch of typos. What happened Chis, the copypasta messed up? :X
Anyway, just stick this in the OP. Couple of changes of words, added, and/or removed (but still keeps the original message untouched):
Welcome to the ultimate compendium of Sonic the Hedgehog in Super Smash Brothers Brawl. If you're reading this, you've already taken a huge leap towards becoming the next best Sonic player.
There have been a lot of arguments about Sonic being one of the worst characters in this game. Whether any of that still holds any water is no longer up for debate as a number of people have gone out of their way to prove otherwise, and slowly but surely many have seen that Sonic is a force to be reckoned with in the right hands. Do not get the wrong idea however, as it is a long and grueling road, and the difficulty; while never anything short of challenging, can vary on the environment.
Many of the players are still finding ways to improve themselves, as Sonic players and as players in general. Meaning that there are many ways to play Sonic, achieve success, and the ceiling of perfection for Sonic is very high and difficult to reach. So be sure to experiment a little bit. Ask for help when you get stuck, and draw upon your own conclusions after you have done enough playing and tinkering around.
Now you, the reader, are the new generation. By all means, please feel welcomed, as now it is a lot easier to find all the information you could want in order to become the next speed demon. There is a lot of potential in Sonic, and moreso in you; never forget that. If you have any inquiries as a player or anything regarding Sonic and the way he handles his opponents then you are also in the right place. Allow the community to help you in overcoming your problems. We are all family here, so all we want is to see each other grow and prosper.
The Smash Lab has also been working on an updated and revised standard terms list. Hopefully that'll come out within a reasonable time, but otherwise I wouldn't use that link for Sonic-specific acronyms. We should have a dedicated section for that though, and maybe we can take a day or so to have everybody gather around and share a hat trick or two.
As for the moveset guide, I'll post what hasn't already been covered thus far, and give some more frame data since there's some [Missing]/[Inaccurate]/[Revision needed].
[Jab]
Jab 1 is 19 frames total uninterrupted, not 20. [Inaccurate]
Jab 2 comes out on frame 10 if started after jab 1 (otherwise it takes 8 frames for the first active hitbox of jab 2 to come up after Jab 1's first active hitbox). It lasts 21 frames uninterrupted, not 22. [Inaccurate]
Jab 3 comes out on frame 4, not 3. First active hitbox also comes out 10 frames after Jab 2's first active hitbox. 30 frames total, not 32.[Inaccurate]
It should be mentioned that Jab can lock the opponent in the hard fall animation (we can explain what jab-locking is later but all the details of the attacks should at least get brief mentions before they get detailed one later in the guide (especially now that we aren't at that point yet)).[Revision needed]
If anybody really wants me to gather jab hitbox duration, or something like the window of opportunity for the jab combo (like, what frames can I press the A button again so that the jab combo in the next order will come out); and obviously anything I haven't mentioned or isn't-
You get my point! Sheesh. Redundancy...
Just let me know.[Missing]
[DTilt]
The description is kind of confusing. I don't remember there being three hitboxes on it, but it may just be me. I only know that the tip of the shoe sends at a more horizontal angle than the leg does. They probably only end up behind Sonic because he is of course moving forward as his does DTilt. [Revision needed]
DTilt-UTilt should be mentioned as a follow-up.[Missing]
Safety on block doesn't matter. Both of them have a considerable disadvantage on block. :X [Revision needed]
Also, if I haven't mentioned this already, "frame data" needs to be its own sub-category in the moveset, or different frame data should be separate. If you look at it now, It's jumbled on the same line when it should look like this:
First active hitbox: 6.
Hitbox duration: 6-9.
Total duration: 27. [Revision needed]
[FTilt]
The torso hitbox should get its own mention. It is possible to hit with this part of FTilt's hitbox and not connect with the legs. It does 4% damage on its own (this is right). Then there can be a mention afterwards that it's a two-hit attack that can deal 11% damage in total. [Revision needed]
Frame data should be separate for each hitbox. Right now it looks like it's one hitbox that has an active hitbox on frame 6, disappears on frame 7, then reappears on frame 8 when that's not the case. It should be specific that the first active hitbox for the torso hitbox is frame 6, and then the first active hitbox for the legs is on frame 8. [Revision needed]
The torso hitbox does in fact, last more than one frame. I know that for sure. Both hitboxes end on frame 11, not 12. I know that for sure as well. [Revision needed]
Again, if anybody would like for me to grab the specific hitbox duration, just ask. [Missing]
Please get rid of "safety factor" if it's referring to on-block. It seems incorrect now that I've gotten the shieldstun frame data and it looks otherwise. :X If it meant to range, I guess you can leave it as is. [Revision needed]
35 total frames, not 34. [Inaccurate]
[UTilt]
Range being "short" is referring to it's horizontal hitbox. How about mentioning it's superior vertical range? :X [Revision needed]
For some reason, even though I managed to get UTilt to land only two hits, I still managed to get 14% damage from it. The first hit does 3%, then the second does 4% damage after/if the first hit (connected); the third hit doesn't change and does 7% as expected (totaling 14%). I don't know what that is or what it means, but perhaps somebody else can break it down for me, or can we put this down the guide?
I brought it up because that means it really shouldn't matter if you hit with the first hitbox or not, it's still treated as the same. In that sense, there's a hitbox from frame 7 to frame [Revision needed]
49 total frames, not 48. [Inaccurate]
[Aerials]
I see a lot of potential for UTilt if the opponent happens to spotdodge your jab 1 at point blank. Perhaps briefly mention this frame trap here, or is that going to be something for later? [Revision needed]
Ugh, this is a lot of correction/fixing, and I haven't even spent that much time on it, nor have I gone that far in. I haven't even looked at what's been posted after the guide/my last post in this thread before I went MIA, I just checked the guide/OP. I'll have to come back to this, I need to do Spanish II/get some sleep, and unfortunately I got... shall we say, preoccupied? Tomorrow I'll get the frame data for the aerials, add some more suggestions, fix more inaccuracies (if there are any), and of course contribute a bit more.
Thanks for taking the time to read/consider my $0.02!
1) Uair is Sonic's fastest aerial, tied with Nair/Fair. Uair has some landing lag, but not much: little more than Nair, but noticeably less than Fair.
2) Uair has great horizontal range in the first hit, and amazing vertical range with the second hit. Sonic's legs do not count as a hurtbox during the second hit.
3) Uair has a low damage output and very low knockback.
4) The second hit of Uair will beat out damn near every Dair in the game, but the spacing is very strict, which only gets harder when you factor how long the second hit stays out and how long it takes to get to that second hit. Nonetheless, it's high vertical disjoint, minimal ending lag, and Sonic's speed provide Sonic an easy method of juggling opponents with little risk to himself.
5) The first hit of Uair has set knockback, which can lead to Utilt and grab combos if Uair is fastfalled so that only the first hit comes out. This trick can be used at any time, but it also leads to one of the only kill setups Sonic has (Uair -> Utilt), at high percentage, and so can be used as a surprise maneuver if the opponent is being careful with his/her spacing and is avoiding Fsmash, Bair, and being grabbed into a Uthrow. However, these combos only work if Sonic is falling on top of the opponent; otherwise, the first hit will send the opponent flying in the opposite direction.
6) On the ground, Uair's KO potential is pathetic, killing around the 250% area, later than even ftilt. However, with clever manipulation of his Spring, Sonic can hit opponents high in the sky and kill with Uair, starting around the early 100s.
Is this basically all for Uair, or am I missing few points?
