da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
it just results in using more baits and feints to get your grabs and spindash combos off as opposed to just spacing the guy out with bair, and youll probably end up using more dash attack as well.
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The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset
- Thread starter Kinzer
- Start date
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
Am I like the only Sonic who spams Fair and Uair for damage racking?
(....I pretty much only use Bair for KOs)
(....I pretty much only use Bair for KOs)
Sonic-Rave
Smash Journeyman
Would it be possible to use Bair for racking damage AND for KOs?
Like, say I use mostly Bair to get my opponent from 0-80% or 90% and Bair at this point is mostly stale. Now let's say I want to get my opponent to about 110-130% to land a Fsmash, but instead of Bair, I grab, pummel 2-3 times and Uthrow then I land spindash -> ....let's say Uair. Now at this point, my opponent is in kill range but instead of trying to land a Fsmash, wouldn't Bair be fresh enough at this point to kill around the edge of the stage?
Like, say I use mostly Bair to get my opponent from 0-80% or 90% and Bair at this point is mostly stale. Now let's say I want to get my opponent to about 110-130% to land a Fsmash, but instead of Bair, I grab, pummel 2-3 times and Uthrow then I land spindash -> ....let's say Uair. Now at this point, my opponent is in kill range but instead of trying to land a Fsmash, wouldn't Bair be fresh enough at this point to kill around the edge of the stage?
You can very well use it for both, but just remember to always have at least one of Sonic's "KO moves" fresh for when your opponent makes a mistake.
I think everything was covered pretty well. Just make sure to remember that as safe as Bair is, it's still a pretty slow aerial. Don't use it unless you have the proper spacing set up.
I think everything was covered pretty well. Just make sure to remember that as safe as Bair is, it's still a pretty slow aerial. Don't use it unless you have the proper spacing set up.
Its not horribly difficult to unstale moves as sonic. With all these 5 damage fairs people land on the way. I wouldn't say bair needs to be saved. You should be focusing on hitting people and stopping them from hitting you. They will die eventually, no need to take additional risk in using a move that isn't best suited for your situation.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
Seriously, Sonic can use it for both. Sonic isnt killing with bair untill 130 (opponent near the edge) or higher unless theyre offstage. Just abuse it, because everytime you bair, you should be following it up with something anyways. Which means bair really wont get too stale. So when theyre in kill range for SDR>bair your bair shouldnt be stale to the point of not killing. If it is, then it doesnt really matter because that means you probably gave you opponent 10% (cuz its stale) and a potential follow up or edgeguard racking damage. SDR>bair kills late (160%) from the middle of the stage, which means if it was stale to the point it doesnt kill, it means by then ur utilt, fair (at the edge of the stage or offstage) fresh uair, nair, and (after a couple more hits/throws) uthrow become kill moves anyways.
There really isnt any reason to refrain from using it. Sonic shouldnt bother himself with killing. the more you force it, the more likely ull fail and get punished repeatedly untill you get punished by a kill move and end up behind. Sonic should just be DPS all day. Unless you see an openeing, picked up on a major weakness, or are simply using them to combat ledge options, all of sonics kill moves will usually fail. So just damage rack untill ur damage rackers become kill moves, or an opportunity presents itself
There really isnt any reason to refrain from using it. Sonic shouldnt bother himself with killing. the more you force it, the more likely ull fail and get punished repeatedly untill you get punished by a kill move and end up behind. Sonic should just be DPS all day. Unless you see an openeing, picked up on a major weakness, or are simply using them to combat ledge options, all of sonics kill moves will usually fail. So just damage rack untill ur damage rackers become kill moves, or an opportunity presents itself
Chis
Finally a legend
How's the write up going Browny?
Browny
Smash Hater
oshi-
ok lets see how this works...
Nair - A candidate for worst aerial in the game in terms of damage, lag, range and knockback however is unique properties with its transcendant priority hitbox, shrinking hurtbox and very long duration with short landing lag make it a situational attack which can prove useful. Unfortunately from a stale moves point of view, almost all of Sonic's other options are better thus the move is rarely used. Its quick release and single hit to prevent SDI escapes make it a kill move of sorts at high % as it can be comboed into from a spindash or reading an airdodge. The move also functions as a set up for a jab lock or tech chase when hitting an airborne opponent with the third hitbox due to its very low angle and knockback, sending the enemy into the stage often before they can tech. Out of a footstool, this is guaranteed.
hmm lets try bair while were at it
Bair - Sonics most reliable kill move when the enemy is not vulnerable to f/dsmash to punish landing lag, bair is also one of Sonics best overall attacks. Although slow by aerial standards for an attack, bair does decent damage with great range, a noticeable disjoint in front of his foot and has considerable knockback with a decent angle. Another great feature of this move is its safety on block when properly spaced while moving away from the opponent and ability to be comboed into and set up combos of its own at low %'s. Despite all this, Sonics bair would be a bad move on any other character, it is greatly influenced by his mobility as recovering opponents must deal with the fact that Sonic can and will harass them far off-stage. At a time when your options reduce to 1 and Sonic is far offstage preparing to react to your only option, the bair is a solid edgeguard against most characters. On stage it remains a great spacing tool with enough range to solidly beat most attacks when spaced properly and will net KO's from the stage from time to time.
smashwiki said nair is transcendant and their article on priority is actually really good, I have little reason to doubt it.
ok lets see how this works...
Nair - A candidate for worst aerial in the game in terms of damage, lag, range and knockback however is unique properties with its transcendant priority hitbox, shrinking hurtbox and very long duration with short landing lag make it a situational attack which can prove useful. Unfortunately from a stale moves point of view, almost all of Sonic's other options are better thus the move is rarely used. Its quick release and single hit to prevent SDI escapes make it a kill move of sorts at high % as it can be comboed into from a spindash or reading an airdodge. The move also functions as a set up for a jab lock or tech chase when hitting an airborne opponent with the third hitbox due to its very low angle and knockback, sending the enemy into the stage often before they can tech. Out of a footstool, this is guaranteed.
hmm lets try bair while were at it
Bair - Sonics most reliable kill move when the enemy is not vulnerable to f/dsmash to punish landing lag, bair is also one of Sonics best overall attacks. Although slow by aerial standards for an attack, bair does decent damage with great range, a noticeable disjoint in front of his foot and has considerable knockback with a decent angle. Another great feature of this move is its safety on block when properly spaced while moving away from the opponent and ability to be comboed into and set up combos of its own at low %'s. Despite all this, Sonics bair would be a bad move on any other character, it is greatly influenced by his mobility as recovering opponents must deal with the fact that Sonic can and will harass them far off-stage. At a time when your options reduce to 1 and Sonic is far offstage preparing to react to your only option, the bair is a solid edgeguard against most characters. On stage it remains a great spacing tool with enough range to solidly beat most attacks when spaced properly and will net KO's from the stage from time to time.
smashwiki said nair is transcendant and their article on priority is actually really good, I have little reason to doubt it.
I thought he was kidding, he mentioned smashwiki. Transcendent priority would be awful with low range. It means you can't clink with projectiles or specials. With 0 range it would be the worst possible thing. And I know its not, because you can cancel projectiles with Nair.
Your wording about "worst aerial" seems to imply that it has horrible damage, range, knockback and lag. But the knockback is simply mediocre and the landing lag is relatively low.
Your wording about "worst aerial" seems to imply that it has horrible damage, range, knockback and lag. But the knockback is simply mediocre and the landing lag is relatively low.
Browny
Smash Hater
well its a combination of those things, its lag isnt landing lag btw 
I mean the attack last for a bit too long when used in the air and leaves you very vulnerable if its dodged.
Ill re-word it but maybe later
I mean the attack last for a bit too long when used in the air and leaves you very vulnerable if its dodged.Ill re-word it but maybe later
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Nair is not transcendant, I believe you can hit projectiles with it.
In fact, having an aerial that is transcendant is bad.
Aerials dont clang, they only clang with special moves and even then, they cannot be broken since they do not abide by the percent rules like ground moves.
In fact, having an aerial that is transcendant is bad.
Aerials dont clang, they only clang with special moves and even then, they cannot be broken since they do not abide by the percent rules like ground moves.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
having Nair with transcendental priority would be amazing;then id know if im close range im not getting interrupted by crap. Besides the only projectiles that stop it have transcendental priority as well.. Tenki would know. lol Smashwiki
No no no, transcendent priority is only as good as your range. Sonic's Fsmash clashes with falcon's rapid jab despite having alot of range. However MKs dsmash (about the same range) beats it, because it doesn't clash with anything. You only win when you have more range with transcendent. Ike's nair would be fine with transcendent priority, but sonic's would be the worst possible priority because there is no disjoint.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Im pretty sure Ikes nair (along with his other aerials) DOES have transcendant priority.
Sonic nair does not, because it clanks with tornado.
Sonic nair does not, because it clanks with tornado.
Chis
Finally a legend
Gj once again Browny.
I apologies for the lack of activity. I'm currently suck with the sucky Wii browser at the moment :l
On to Fair.
I apologies for the lack of activity. I'm currently suck with the sucky Wii browser at the moment :l
On to Fair.
Trent
Smash Champion
Fair is sex.
It refreshes your other moves really well.
It refreshes your other moves really well.
Sonic-Rave
Smash Journeyman
Fair is Sonic's fastest aerial and is used for momentum canceling. It is also one of Sonic's more damaging moves ranging dealing up to 14% fresh and if all hits connect. You receive no land lag if you Fair immediately after a SH. However one of the biggest problems about Fair is that it can be SDI'd out of which can leave you vulnerable.
Like seriously, it sucks when you only get 2% damage from Fair then receive 6%+ from your opponent. :l
Like seriously, it sucks when you only get 2% damage from Fair then receive 6%+ from your opponent. :l
Kinzer
Mammy
No landing lag?
Fair ends fast enough that you can buffer a SpinDash assuming you buffered a SHFair. Probably a Spring and Spin Charge too but I've only messed around with Side-B.
I'm not sure what are the applications, but I'd assume it'd be pretty nice to know.
Fair ends fast enough that you can buffer a SpinDash assuming you buffered a SHFair. Probably a Spring and Spin Charge too but I've only messed around with Side-B.
I'm not sure what are the applications, but I'd assume it'd be pretty nice to know.
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
Yeah, there isn't any landing lag from SHFair.
Fair is a good OoS option (if you're not counting Uair) and it's pretty good at shieldpoking.
And is it me or does it seem to have more 'priority' at the tip of Sonic's head?
Fair is a good OoS option (if you're not counting Uair) and it's pretty good at shieldpoking.
And is it me or does it seem to have more 'priority' at the tip of Sonic's head?
Browny
Smash Hater
There isnt any landing lag... or it finishes before the SH is complete? Im pretty sure its the latter. The final hitbox afaik has 2 parts, the normal one and another that exits for a frame or two which extends way past his head, you know when you hit with it coz it has decent knockback.
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
Like, he doesn't do his landing animation after using Fair.
...Actually yeah, it's the latter of what you said lol.
And oh alright.
...Actually yeah, it's the latter of what you said lol.
And oh alright.
Jumps
Jump to freefall – total of 38 (Regardless of short hop or full jump)
1-6: Sonic leaves ground after
7-10: initial jump before going into ball form
11-37:stays in ball
38: out of ball and begins to enter free fall
shorthop length (no fastfall) – lands on 46
shorthop (fastfall ASAP) – 40 < best I can get
fullhop (no fastfall) – shield on 71
fullhop (fastfall ASAP) – shield on 57 < best I can get
From the old frame data thread.
Fair and bair both end before sonic lands out of a shorthop, so you will have a "lagless" landing or you can use a special or aerial before you land.
Fair is a decent aerial for starting, continuing and ending combos. Sonic's most damaging aerial ideally. Unfortunately, trying to actually get the entire 8 hit, 14 damage move, allows opponents to:
-at worst, SDI out and punish mid air, as the first 7 hits have very little hitstun
-at least, choose which direction the final hit sends them, avoiding follow ups and gimps
Jump to freefall – total of 38 (Regardless of short hop or full jump)
1-6: Sonic leaves ground after
7-10: initial jump before going into ball form
11-37:stays in ball
38: out of ball and begins to enter free fall
shorthop length (no fastfall) – lands on 46
shorthop (fastfall ASAP) – 40 < best I can get
fullhop (no fastfall) – shield on 71
fullhop (fastfall ASAP) – shield on 57 < best I can get
From the old frame data thread.
Fair and bair both end before sonic lands out of a shorthop, so you will have a "lagless" landing or you can use a special or aerial before you land.
Fair is a decent aerial for starting, continuing and ending combos. Sonic's most damaging aerial ideally. Unfortunately, trying to actually get the entire 8 hit, 14 damage move, allows opponents to:
-at worst, SDI out and punish mid air, as the first 7 hits have very little hitstun
-at least, choose which direction the final hit sends them, avoiding follow ups and gimps
Kinzer
Mammy
I have not been able to do a special out of a Bair yet.
Could somebody confirm that it is in fact possible and I'm not doing my buffering correct?
Could somebody confirm that it is in fact possible and I'm not doing my buffering correct?
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
...............uhhhh where in the world did you get that we cant sh fair> first hit uair. Thats where 95% of my first hit uairs derive from.
Sonic-Rave
Smash Journeyman
I keep trying to buffer the first hit uair after the sh fair but I've only been able to do it once. Every other time I just get the land lag animation.
Browny
Smash Hater
i gotta make up for slacking...
Fair -
A simple, moderately high damaging aerial attack which is hindered by its poor initial range and severe landing lag is fast falled too early. One of sonics quickest overall attacks and very fast by aerial standards at only 5 frames, Sonic aligns himself parallel to the ground and spins twice along his head to shoes axis in a multi-hit attack, finishing with a disjointed hitbox at the tip of his head with decent knockback. The attack does 14% fresh if every hit connects and leaves the opponent in a great spot for sonic as they are close enough to be followed up but not far enough such that they have enough time to choose a safe landing place. Its benefits of being a high-damaging multi-hit attack able to beat dodging and shields though are of course the ability to SDI out of it, getting every hit to actually land is difficult on small opponents and you may even be punished if it hits but the enemy escapes the final hitbox. Despite this, if the opportunity arises this attack should be used when a punish is guaranteed from reading a dodge or a shield is low, it has very high shield stabbing potential and is easily sonics highest damage-per-frame attack from start up to hitbox ending.
Fair -
A simple, moderately high damaging aerial attack which is hindered by its poor initial range and severe landing lag is fast falled too early. One of sonics quickest overall attacks and very fast by aerial standards at only 5 frames, Sonic aligns himself parallel to the ground and spins twice along his head to shoes axis in a multi-hit attack, finishing with a disjointed hitbox at the tip of his head with decent knockback. The attack does 14% fresh if every hit connects and leaves the opponent in a great spot for sonic as they are close enough to be followed up but not far enough such that they have enough time to choose a safe landing place. Its benefits of being a high-damaging multi-hit attack able to beat dodging and shields though are of course the ability to SDI out of it, getting every hit to actually land is difficult on small opponents and you may even be punished if it hits but the enemy escapes the final hitbox. Despite this, if the opportunity arises this attack should be used when a punish is guaranteed from reading a dodge or a shield is low, it has very high shield stabbing potential and is easily sonics highest damage-per-frame attack from start up to hitbox ending.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
then you arent doing fair fast enough. you have to do it immediately out of sh it has the least frame time out of all our aerials lol.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
why did nobody tell me this was possible...
also, something Id like to note. there are times where sonic is falling from a height and the opponent is in a situation where all of sonics defensive options (all the places sonic could aerially move to, along with airdodge) are covered, and many people will refuse to attack the opponent to get themsleves out of a bad situation, simply because the move has lag on landing unlike bair.
even if you are going to suffer the landing lag, some times it is better to throw out the fair right before you land. the 8 hitboxes all come out very soon in succession, so some times an opponent will let their shield up prematurely or get shield stabbed by it.
Sonic-Rave
Smash Journeyman
You forgot to mention that the starting frames of Dair sends the opponent sideways and anytime afterward sends them upward.
Chis
Finally a legend
Right. Let's move on...
Sonic's dair can semi spike, if the opponent is not DIing upwards that is. There are two stages to this move. The first part is at the start when Sonic is followed by a blue aura. This is when Dair semi spikes. The other is when he loses that aura. At this point Dair will send your opponent upwards. It 'cancels' from about the same height as a full spring. A bad habit for a lot of Sonics is spring>dair combo. It's really predictable and punishable unless the opponent is far away. Using it from small heights is not advisable as there's a lot of lag if you reach the ground before the move is finished. I find it useful when I'm at the top/top right of the screen and I need to get back on the stage quickly. And the semi-spike effect is useful for gimping.
Edit: I'll update the OP in the next few days. Bare with me.
Sonic's dair can semi spike, if the opponent is not DIing upwards that is. There are two stages to this move. The first part is at the start when Sonic is followed by a blue aura. This is when Dair semi spikes. The other is when he loses that aura. At this point Dair will send your opponent upwards. It 'cancels' from about the same height as a full spring. A bad habit for a lot of Sonics is spring>dair combo. It's really predictable and punishable unless the opponent is far away. Using it from small heights is not advisable as there's a lot of lag if you reach the ground before the move is finished. I find it useful when I'm at the top/top right of the screen and I need to get back on the stage quickly. And the semi-spike effect is useful for gimping.
Edit: I'll update the OP in the next few days. Bare with me.
Browny
Smash Hater
We can do it with the power of teamwork!
Chis
Finally a legend
While I’m slowly updating the OP (1/2 done :<) let’s talk about the hypno smash!
Criticism about the OP is welcome btw.
Criticism about the OP is welcome btw.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dair is useful.
due to the fact that most players tend to avoid anything laggy like the plague and people arent used to the move. because of that, I hit with like 90% of my dairs, and 8% of them are punished inappropriately.
People use it to get back to the ground fast, but you have to realise, it has a fast moving hitbox on it, so it can beat a lot more moves than you would assume.
due to the fact that most players tend to avoid anything laggy like the plague and people arent used to the move. because of that, I hit with like 90% of my dairs, and 8% of them are punished inappropriately.
People use it to get back to the ground fast, but you have to realise, it has a fast moving hitbox on it, so it can beat a lot more moves than you would assume.
Chis
Finally a legend
Care to expand on that? I’m interested in how you use it so reliably.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dair is fast enough to fit into tight spaces, it can hit mk inbetween up airs.
it also has a start up, which throws off land camping. so if youre falling into snake and dair above his head, it will avoid the inevitable up tilt and hit snake in the lag
people who are used to punishing spindash jumps will jump after the spin hits them. but if you dair immediately on their head from a spindash, they will be jumping to try and punish but then theyll get hit by it.
it also has a start up, which throws off land camping. so if youre falling into snake and dair above his head, it will avoid the inevitable up tilt and hit snake in the lag
people who are used to punishing spindash jumps will jump after the spin hits them. but if you dair immediately on their head from a spindash, they will be jumping to try and punish but then theyll get hit by it.