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The Sonic Boards Community Guide (Reformat) - General/Moveset
- Thread starter Kinzer
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
ok guys im not going to be able to do this testing, as I need two people that know how to play the game to do the testing I need, not sure what im going to do about this.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
tesh it needs to be buffered.
@ KID aww man! hmm im going to check it out with my boy and see if we can figure it out. Tell me what method you wanted to you use to test it KID and ill see if i can get it done.
@ KID aww man! hmm im going to check it out with my boy and see if we can figure it out. Tell me what method you wanted to you use to test it KID and ill see if i can get it done.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
Stupid Double Post
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Well ok, obviously i did the first testing on MK. and what I did was tested the strong hit and weak hits of the dash attack to see if/how punishable it was.
2 quick notes, 1. pretty much all dash attacks are extremely punishable if you use them near the ledge. But I think we knew that already.
2. Both the strong hit and the weak hit last a really long time and when you hit with it determines a lot about the safety of the move. if you hit with the very end of the dash attack, obviously the chances of it being safer go up.
Optimal DI is in the same direction that the dash attack is moving, and this makes it in some cases easier to punish it. but since not everyone knows this, its important to test with and without proper DI
So far this is what I came up with.
Safety of dash attack On Mk
Without DI
1. Strong hit dash attack: Always.
2. Initial weak hit: 0-??
3. Late hit: 0-??
With DI
4. Strong hit: Was not safe at 0. was not able to test enough to figure out when its not safe.
5. Initial weak hit: 0-??
6. Late hit: 0-??
1. Is always safe but has very little follow up potential. since it pops him up so high. and thus the Mk regains his composure and can DJ dair or w/e
2. Can followed up with f tilt, any other option would probably be too slow against a high level player, feel free to run in and grab against a bad person tho. Because of the light, DDD downthrow type hitstun, DI affects this, very little.
3. Can be followed up by pretty much any move you want. being the player that I am, grab is always the option of choice for me.
4. When MK DIs with you. Hes basically right on top of you when he gets out of hit stun and your still in endlag of the move. so he can dair, bair and maybe even nair you.
5. See 2.
6. See 3.
2 quick notes, 1. pretty much all dash attacks are extremely punishable if you use them near the ledge. But I think we knew that already.
2. Both the strong hit and the weak hit last a really long time and when you hit with it determines a lot about the safety of the move. if you hit with the very end of the dash attack, obviously the chances of it being safer go up.
Optimal DI is in the same direction that the dash attack is moving, and this makes it in some cases easier to punish it. but since not everyone knows this, its important to test with and without proper DI
So far this is what I came up with.
Safety of dash attack On Mk
Without DI
1. Strong hit dash attack: Always.
2. Initial weak hit: 0-??
3. Late hit: 0-??
With DI
4. Strong hit: Was not safe at 0. was not able to test enough to figure out when its not safe.
5. Initial weak hit: 0-??
6. Late hit: 0-??
1. Is always safe but has very little follow up potential. since it pops him up so high. and thus the Mk regains his composure and can DJ dair or w/e
2. Can followed up with f tilt, any other option would probably be too slow against a high level player, feel free to run in and grab against a bad person tho. Because of the light, DDD downthrow type hitstun, DI affects this, very little.
3. Can be followed up by pretty much any move you want. being the player that I am, grab is always the option of choice for me.
4. When MK DIs with you. Hes basically right on top of you when he gets out of hit stun and your still in endlag of the move. so he can dair, bair and maybe even nair you.
5. See 2.
6. See 3.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
okay kid well i took that info and tested it on MK as well and i got very similar results ( imagine that ). So i also took the initiative to testing tipper dtilt> Dash attack which seems to be a true combo at mid percents. It also happens to hit with the late hit when done right. which gets us this, tipper dtilt>dash attack (late hit)> stuff. Why is this so good? because you can very well go into a utilt which does 14% by itself, grab which with a single pummel maxes at 16% and gives an advantageous position. we get ftilt which is HIGHlY recommended if your opponent likes to fast fall as it will lock them. U can dtilt again which gives us decent aerial follow ups and frame traps afterwards. Lastly we get one of my favorites; jab combo. This is awesome because it also gives a sliding knockback at mid percents and also can be followed up by dash attack with a late hit due to the spacing it gives! Of course SDI is an issue but catching ur opponent off guard with this is amazing because with the combination of punishing their landing lag we get:
tipper dtilt> DA>jab combo>DA>stuff.
So basically jab combo resets the situation.
So DA is amazing as a punisher, especially land camping. If you are able to properly space it, it lends its self to being one of our best combo starters throughout the entire match netting us stupid damage similar to early percents.
Lastly DA lends itself to gimping particular characters when spaced properly. I was able to successfully gimp a falco via tipper dtilt>DA (late hit)> jab cancels finishing him off with a bair.
EDIT: I will be testing other characters shortly.
NOTE: DA (late hit)> fsmash owns characters who DI properly and end up in front of us as the DA ends such as DK, D3 and Snake. This is due to their slow fairs (and snake/DK's dairs). This a good tactice regardless their jump option still exists. Especially DK and Snake due to the relative easiness of land camping them you could honestly set this up again after they use their DJ and they are basically screwed.
tipper dtilt> DA>jab combo>DA>stuff.
So basically jab combo resets the situation.
So DA is amazing as a punisher, especially land camping. If you are able to properly space it, it lends its self to being one of our best combo starters throughout the entire match netting us stupid damage similar to early percents.
Lastly DA lends itself to gimping particular characters when spaced properly. I was able to successfully gimp a falco via tipper dtilt>DA (late hit)> jab cancels finishing him off with a bair.
EDIT: I will be testing other characters shortly.
NOTE: DA (late hit)> fsmash owns characters who DI properly and end up in front of us as the DA ends such as DK, D3 and Snake. This is due to their slow fairs (and snake/DK's dairs). This a good tactice regardless their jump option still exists. Especially DK and Snake due to the relative easiness of land camping them you could honestly set this up again after they use their DJ and they are basically screwed.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I need specific percents to know when to use the down tilt setup.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
on MK: 30% to 65% a fresh tipper dtilt will give you the particular knockback necessary for dtilt>DA
after 65%: after this percentage we get out best techable jab lock setup. NOTE: they can DI it up ( although they have to be aware its coming). However even if they DI it up, you should chase. It places them in knockback similar to bairing a character at 35% ( u know the low aerial knockback in which most ppl AD and we get another grab?) or you can still go for a DA to pop them up into a FH or DJ bair range. Or you can space DA late hit again ( which isnt hard to pull off), and do whatever.
Does that suffice KID?
after 65%: after this percentage we get out best techable jab lock setup. NOTE: they can DI it up ( although they have to be aware its coming). However even if they DI it up, you should chase. It places them in knockback similar to bairing a character at 35% ( u know the low aerial knockback in which most ppl AD and we get another grab?) or you can still go for a DA to pop them up into a FH or DJ bair range. Or you can space DA late hit again ( which isnt hard to pull off), and do whatever.
Does that suffice KID?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
exactly what I needed.
now if you give me the numbers for that combo with snake. than I can pretty much use that info and extrapolate it in my mind for the rest of the cast.
now if you give me the numbers for that combo with snake. than I can pretty much use that info and extrapolate it in my mind for the rest of the cast.
~TBS~
Smash Champion
Its also got me thinking...i need to see this stuff for myself. I also had a talk with alot of players about the most basic of things.
Chis
Finally a legend
Is anyone actually going to do the write up or do I have to do another one again?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I try to make a thread between now and the end of the weekend.
Chis
Finally a legend
Alright, moving onto Nair. I'll edit this with something later...
Nair is an aerial with very situational uses. Aside from the uncommon jablock, it can be used in place of fair for damaging or avoiding SDI issues. Its a late kill option comparable to uptilt, upthrow and fresh dair. IT has a long lasting hitbox and low lag, however the lack of range can make it difficult to land outside of spindash combos.
Nair is great at 12 damage imo in sure-to-hit situations where fair might provide an escape through SDI to an opponent. It can be useful as a quick (frame 5) landing option when bair might be too slow and fair would be too punishable.
Nair is a fairly bad aerial and most sonic's least useful by far, but his speed can help him land anything.
Nair is great at 12 damage imo in sure-to-hit situations where fair might provide an escape through SDI to an opponent. It can be useful as a quick (frame 5) landing option when bair might be too slow and fair would be too punishable.
Nair is a fairly bad aerial and most sonic's least useful by far, but his speed can help him land anything.
I agree with Tesh.
Nair is great for damage. It will most likely always do a good 11% since it is always fresh. It's low knockback can also help Sonic chain more attacks at lower percents. The late hits will make opponents slide along the ground and set up jab locks, so thats important to note too.
The biggest problem with this move is its range. In the air, I'm pretty confident in saying that any aerials (except maybe Oli's, I forget) will rip straight through our nair no problem. Since it's frame 5, quicker aerials can hit Sonic before nair's hitbox comes out. Either way, the priority is very low. Pretty situational move.
Nair is great for damage. It will most likely always do a good 11% since it is always fresh. It's low knockback can also help Sonic chain more attacks at lower percents. The late hits will make opponents slide along the ground and set up jab locks, so thats important to note too.
The biggest problem with this move is its range. In the air, I'm pretty confident in saying that any aerials (except maybe Oli's, I forget) will rip straight through our nair no problem. Since it's frame 5, quicker aerials can hit Sonic before nair's hitbox comes out. Either way, the priority is very low. Pretty situational move.
Chis
Finally a legend
There are 3 stages of Nair (11%-8%-5%). Nair does progressively less damage and less knockback. The lasts hitbox has the least knock back allowing you to chain moves from it at low percentages. Nair has sucky range. It’s long lasting hitbox makes it good for punishing air dodges. Used in a certain jab lock set up. A down side is that you can’t short hop it without its landing lag due to the move lasting too long. So that reduces its usefulness. Lacks of a good disjoint like Fair, Bair and Uair has. Also sometimes when the opponent has you caught in a series of moves or something, you can Nair in between to interrupt them. I don’t think it’s even good for killing at late percentages, is it?
Also what Tesh said, it’s situational.
Also what Tesh said, it’s situational.
In my experience, with good DI is kills at the same ridiculous percents as uptilt and upthrow, but off to the side and quickly (frame 5, low hitlag). Its fairly useful to edgeguarding characters who are vulnerable from below and as I said, I see ALOT of 7-9 damage forward airs that people escape from (and punish sometimes).
Pretty lame aerial, I wish it bounced on impact like (toon) link's dair, then it would really serve a nice purpose here and there. However I can't think of an aerial that wouldn't be made usable my spindash.
Pretty lame aerial, I wish it bounced on impact like (toon) link's dair, then it would really serve a nice purpose here and there. However I can't think of an aerial that wouldn't be made usable my spindash.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you suffer the laggy ending if you try to short hop nair, but it out lasts spotdodges because the hit box is out for so long, and even if you land right in the middle of the move the laggy landing has IASA frames that activate quite early, making it have much less lag than it appears.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
if you can bait a spotdodge, this automatically becomes our best option for quite awhile due to soft hit nair>grab. Nair is also awesome in sdr combos because it give assured damage as well as keeps the opponent close enough to follow up again easily without necessarily putting you in danger. gives us a few locks here and there, not the best move for the majority of situations however it gets the job done. Out last ADs too, so thats another use. Setups up gimps with its KB. Sometimes covers a decent amount of options when you are ledge guarding the opponent. use it.
SDR > SDJ > Nair is tasty.
If they're successfully DI'ing your SDR > SDJ > Bair, then try out a nair. It's pretty surprising how often it hits.
It's also a killer if they are unaware of how to DI it. Beyond that, it deals decent damage that adds up along with even just the SDR.
Decent for frame trapping those who AD into you as your uair, and good for punishing spot dodges below you.
I can't think of much else at the moment, except you can lock several characters with a nair out of a footstooled SD (R.O.B., potentially Dedede, Jigglypuff, and potentially Mr. Game & Watch).
If they're successfully DI'ing your SDR > SDJ > Bair, then try out a nair. It's pretty surprising how often it hits.
It's also a killer if they are unaware of how to DI it. Beyond that, it deals decent damage that adds up along with even just the SDR.
Decent for frame trapping those who AD into you as your uair, and good for punishing spot dodges below you.
I can't think of much else at the moment, except you can lock several characters with a nair out of a footstooled SD (R.O.B., potentially Dedede, Jigglypuff, and potentially Mr. Game & Watch).
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
actually, that works on almost every character.
Zori
Smash Champion
olimars nair has a lot of priority
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
1. link me espy.
2. if your list doesnt include snake than its wrong.
2. if your list doesnt include snake than its wrong.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
I remember you testing this awhile back espy, however KID and I were testing it a bit and it seemed possible if you ff at the soonest frame you were able to score a nair due to the low end swing of the nair. KID and I are thinking when it is done frame perfect it is possible. We could be wrong though. however a buffered get up is needed if it is indeed impossible. However Nair is great like espy said and SDR>SDJ>Nair is awesome. Especially following an SDR>fair for a kill. Nair is a very solid move, and its KB is very nice for follow ups as well as the assured damage (relative to fair and uair). It is for this reason i also love to use Nair OoS along with uair at times.
I'll be sure to **** around with Snake and the issue again.
From that little experiment I ran awhile back, the only characters that had potential to be nair locked were:
Mario, Bowser, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, R.O.B., King Dedede, Olimar, Pikachu, Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, and Mr. Game & Watch.
The ones in Lime where the ones where I tested, and met with decent to high success rates, while everyone else I rarely ever got in it.
It's all a huge ordeal anyways.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255179
That's the thread.
From that little experiment I ran awhile back, the only characters that had potential to be nair locked were:
Mario, Bowser, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, R.O.B., King Dedede, Olimar, Pikachu, Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, Ness, Lucas, and Mr. Game & Watch.
The ones in Lime where the ones where I tested, and met with decent to high success rates, while everyone else I rarely ever got in it.
It's all a huge ordeal anyways.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=255179
That's the thread.
We should move on
Nair is :
-A decent sex kick for beating dodges
-Single hit damage to prevent SDI escapes
-Late kill move
-Situational combo setups
-Among the worst nairs/aerials in the game.
-Outclassed in most situations by other options
Lets talk about back air.
Nair is :
-A decent sex kick for beating dodges
-Single hit damage to prevent SDI escapes
-Late kill move
-Situational combo setups
-Among the worst nairs/aerials in the game.
-Outclassed in most situations by other options
Lets talk about back air.
Chis
Finally a legend
We should. But no one wants to do the write ups. I don't want this to be like other threads. This isn't just about having nice cheery discussions over a cup of tea; it's also about building a guide. If we can't do that then all these discussions are pointless.
I'll do the past two write ups, but I can't say when it'll be done.
Let’s talk about Bair.
I'll do the past two write ups, but I can't say when it'll be done.
Let’s talk about Bair.
Browny
Smash Hater
Ill do em later... if I remember >_>
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
Bair:
- combo starter
-best spacer
- kill move
- the essence of all things great with sonic
- combo ender
I know everyone is going to write a ton about this move so im just going to state the basics. It is amazing. It is how were are able to play a spacing game and compete with dumb hitboxes alot of the time. it does 13 present and true combos into grab at low %.
Even when it stops to true combo, it sends them at a very low knockback which basically nets us a free follow up. It also is the end result of one of our most solid kill options; SDR>bair. bair is also one of our safest follow ups due to its wonderful hitbox.
The only gripe is that this move comes out in 13 frames. It autocancels wonderfully though which makes this like bair crossup>jab. bair crossup>grab viable. It is a very health alternative to the spring chase as well to prevent any reversals. It is a definite staple in the Sonic method of play. If you arent using this, then ur messing up. To paraphrase what KID says 'I usually find myself using bair alot when i dont know the matchup' Why? Because bair is one of the few moves that Sonic can commit to and be okay.
- combo starter
-best spacer
- kill move
- the essence of all things great with sonic
- combo ender
I know everyone is going to write a ton about this move so im just going to state the basics. It is amazing. It is how were are able to play a spacing game and compete with dumb hitboxes alot of the time. it does 13 present and true combos into grab at low %.
Even when it stops to true combo, it sends them at a very low knockback which basically nets us a free follow up. It also is the end result of one of our most solid kill options; SDR>bair. bair is also one of our safest follow ups due to its wonderful hitbox.
The only gripe is that this move comes out in 13 frames. It autocancels wonderfully though which makes this like bair crossup>jab. bair crossup>grab viable. It is a very health alternative to the spring chase as well to prevent any reversals. It is a definite staple in the Sonic method of play. If you arent using this, then ur messing up. To paraphrase what KID says 'I usually find myself using bair alot when i dont know the matchup' Why? Because bair is one of the few moves that Sonic can commit to and be okay.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I also said i bair a lot when I know im in a bad matchup
=D
=D
Yup, bair
-Sonic's safest and most reliable "kill move" thanks to spindash
-Good range that seems great with sonic's mobility
-Sourspot does 9% fresh and jab locks at low percents (<20%)
-(almost useless)
-Great follow up option
Definitely one of sonic's best move, but its not very interesting or complicated, I think we can do this one quickly.
-Sonic's safest and most reliable "kill move" thanks to spindash
-Good range that seems great with sonic's mobility
-Sourspot does 9% fresh and jab locks at low percents (<20%)
-(almost useless)
-Great follow up option
Definitely one of sonic's best move, but its not very interesting or complicated, I think we can do this one quickly.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
against a lot of characters, its hard to space bair on shield safely due to sonics inability to quickly change his momentum in the air.
kid craft 24/sonic master
Smash Lord
if only sonic had more air mobility bair would be almost if not always nonpunishable.
Kinzer
Mammy
In all due honesty, what good would mobility do for Bair? I guess if Sonic had Wario's acceleration, he could do zig-zags with his Bair, and perhaps it harder to guess where Sonic will land assuming he does it on top of a shield, but if Sonic could cover more distance in less time (air speed I think?), then he'd be further left or further right after the Bair connects, would it not?
Unless I have my terminology mixed up again...
Anyway, as for the discussion, what can I say that hasn't already been said? The only problem with Bair is that it's so good that it ends up being used in every situation most other attacks can do, outperforms it there, and weakens the Bair in the other utilities it possesses. Use it as a kill move, and you find yourself having a more difficult time racking up the damage. Vice versa, and you find yourself with the opponent living longer per stock.
Now it isn't necessary a problem if Sonic can't kill his opponent, just as long as Sonic himself doesn't die beforehand. so perhaps Bair shines in that it's safe, and does 13% if fresh, and its sex-kick hitbox still does a hefty amount of damage, and leads into follow-ups.
Let's pretend that Bair is used for the kill. Could somebody enlighten me how a Sonic plays in the time that plays out from 0% to kill percents? I honestly don't have a clue, I don't think that is even realistically possible. Grabs and weaving in can only get so far before the opponent will figure out that Sonic doesn't have the range or safety in most, if not all of his other attacks to match Bair, and then plays excessively defensively to keep him out and cause problems.
Unless I have my terminology mixed up again...
Anyway, as for the discussion, what can I say that hasn't already been said? The only problem with Bair is that it's so good that it ends up being used in every situation most other attacks can do, outperforms it there, and weakens the Bair in the other utilities it possesses. Use it as a kill move, and you find yourself having a more difficult time racking up the damage. Vice versa, and you find yourself with the opponent living longer per stock.
Now it isn't necessary a problem if Sonic can't kill his opponent, just as long as Sonic himself doesn't die beforehand. so perhaps Bair shines in that it's safe, and does 13% if fresh, and its sex-kick hitbox still does a hefty amount of damage, and leads into follow-ups.
Let's pretend that Bair is used for the kill. Could somebody enlighten me how a Sonic plays in the time that plays out from 0% to kill percents? I honestly don't have a clue, I don't think that is even realistically possible. Grabs and weaving in can only get so far before the opponent will figure out that Sonic doesn't have the range or safety in most, if not all of his other attacks to match Bair, and then plays excessively defensively to keep him out and cause problems.