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The Smash-Charge Vulnerability (new vid)

Tenki

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daayummm

so I get to create Sonic spin special acronyms AND a name for this.


22good


but in all seriousness, this makes me feel bad because I like to foxtrot> slight-charge F-smash at people who like to spotdodge. I guess that's why I'd die when I'd do it and run into a D-smash, but now people are more aware of it so I guess it's more likely to happen D:
 

IDK

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nice find. not exactly useful. nobody good really charges smashes unless they're waiting for a sidestep. does it matter how charged the smash is? and does it work if you are hit during a c-stick smash? i guess this doesnt really help the opponent, but it warns those who do to be careful when charging smashes.
 

Tenki

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nice find. not exactly useful. nobody good really charges smashes unless they're waiting for a sidestep. does it matter how charged the smash is? and does it work if you are hit during a c-stick smash? i guess this doesnt really help the opponent, but it warns those who do to be careful when charging smashes.

I think someone brought up a GAW dying super-early after a dash attack (apparently, he had started a F-smash right after his dash attack stopped)

I guess this means any time in the startup frames/charge = vulnerable.
 

Storm_Fox

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Nope!

Thanks for pointing that out. I guess since you don't actually charge his yoyo smashes (the hitbox comes out immediately and stays out) it doesn't affect him.
His f-smash is still vulnerable though.
Probably the reason is the up and down smashes are the only ones in the game where by charging them you dont increase damage, Just longer hitbox (time)
 

Napilopez

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Oh god... I like live to charge smashes XD. But I actually think this could prove quite a useful find for characters that are good punishers...

Nice find!
 

OverLade

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So this is only WHILE charging an smash, not during the lag after the smash right?

Looks like Falco's and Wolf's sliding Usmashes just got more risky.
 

tEhrXXz0r

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lol I have a video of me Resting a Snake out of his mortarslide... The Snake skyrocketed upwards, it was pretty cool.

This new discovery may make Snakes think twice about spamming boost smashes.
 

Big O

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Very nice find! This explains so many times where it felt like I shouldn't have died like stale MK dsmashes on lylat with DK. I tested this out a little and can confirm that it is only during the charging animation. If hit right after releasing or before the charging animation starts there is no bonus knockback. I also confirmed that getting hit while DK charges his b punch doesn't give extra knockback in case it mattered. Good eyes lol I never would have noticed that.
 

M15t3R E

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=o

Does it make any difference how long the smash attack has been charging for?
In other words, Will the knockback be the same on a character that has just started charging as opposed to a character that has been charging for about a full second?
 

Luigi player

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That's good to know!

And great how Ness' Yoyo isn't affected :D (at least that's something that makes up for it's not-getting-stronger property)


So that's only if you charge a smash right?
 

Storm_Fox

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lol I have a video of me Resting a Snake out of his mortarslide... The Snake skyrocketed upwards, it was pretty cool.

This new discovery may make Snakes think twice about spamming boost smashes.
Even better, punish Snake's F-Smash. Gives a whole definition to the word lag
 

Adapt

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Does it make any difference how long the smash attack has been charging for?
In other words, Will the knockback be the same on a character that has just started charging as opposed to a character that has been charging for about a full second?
No, that doesn't have any effect.


EDIT: small update for info and uses
 

Frozt

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Oh... so that's what happened...

This guy was charging Snake's Fsmash and I D-tilted him to death pretty easily, I got confused, sure it wasn't bad DI

Very nice find

So this is only WHILE charging an smash, not during the lag after the smash right?
This is what I wanted to ask... So if I hit DDD while hes raising his Fsmash hammer will he fly 20% further?

_Sry for bad english_
 

Tenki

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apparently so.


I still haven't had hold of Brawl yet since this was announced, but I'm guessing that if you consider these "phases":

startup lag
charge

release animation
hitbox out
ending lag

vulnerability might just be for the first two 'phases'
 

Ravin

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Dryn lead me to this thread.. After seeing my youtube video jumped from 200 views to 600 in a matter of two days. O-o....

I didnt even noticed the first fame Dsmash.

But dont go counting on it as a noob killed. From what Ive seen, Its a "Do or die moment" and rather based upon luck, time and place.

Still. A very soild find.
 

East

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I'm not sure if I'm thinking of this correctly, but if you are holding a direction before you get hit, your DI is in that direction correct [assuming you do not change it in that time]?

Does it also apply in this situation, meaning if someone is charging an upsmash and you knock them up, that couples with the added knockback to even potentially earlier kills?
 

Adapt

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Yeah your DI will still influence your trajectory and it can certainly be compounded with this vulnerablility. In the case of the TL vs MK vid I just added, the MK may have been holding down and thus made his death all the more certain. But the real killer was probably the extra knockback.
 

Niko_K

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My friends and I have also discovered. That if you are being hit out of your charged animation, it buffers into your DI so you can't actually DI properly. You get sent according to which direction you are smashing.
 

Magus420

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My friends and I have also discovered. That if you are being hit out of your charged animation, it buffers into your DI so you can't actually DI properly. You get sent according to which direction you are smashing.
You don't need to hold the direction of the smash to charge it though. You only need to hold the 'A' input on it. Are you saying if you were to c-stick down and hold Z to charge a d-smash, you would still DI down even if you were to hold up the entire time it's charging?
 

Woozle

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You don't need to hold the direction of the smash to charge it though. You only need to hold the 'A' input on it. Are you saying if you were to c-stick down and hold Z to charge a d-smash, you would still DI down even if you were to hold up the entire time it's charging?
I just tested it out, and appears that yeah, that's the case. The registered "up" from the up smash stays even if you hit another direction.
 

Adapt

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Nice find, I never really tested the DI beyond making sure that it did not interfere with my knockback results.


Added to the thread.
 

J4pu

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A TL user, Corpsecreate, got a new video of this in action. Killing MK at 0%!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blQj9YXD2RM&fm=22

That first hit of the d-smash is insane when increased 20%... I think I'll go look at the knockback on it when I get home.
It has long been known that Zelda and TL's Dsmash gain large amounts of kill power when they are DIed badly. I'm not sure it would normally kill off the side at 0% but if was a character other than MK chances are they wouldnt have been able to recover after the bad DIed knockback. Just saying DI is playing a large role in this case, not too sure whether or not the charging smash is doing anything.
 

Adapt

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The smash being charged forced the DI to be downwards, and I know that whenever you get hit while you are charging a smash attack you fly 20% further, so I think it's safe to say that the fact that MK charged his down smash is pretty significant in this case.

EDIT:

Here is the data from TL's Down smash

Code:
Mario	Char	Move	0%	300%	Damage
Normal	TL	Dsmash1	4041	4041	6
		Dsmash2	1968	11874	11
					
Charge	TL	Dsmash1	4850	4850	6
		Dsmash2	2361	14249	11
You can see the usual 20% increase in power. Moves normally kill from the center of FD at around 6200 on Mario, and this is already at 4850 on Mario. MK will be much closer to death for several reasons:
- He flies further
- He dies earlier
- In the video MK was near the edge
 

Crizthakidd

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oh man thats awsome info. does it kill 20% earlier off the top too? cuz i know i likt uptiliting falcos charging up an upsmash
 

Nexus Bond

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I thought that this may fit here, since it also involves killing at low percents. Yesterday, I was playing as Falco against my sister, a Pikachu main on Final Destination. She was in the air and performed thunder. Right after the thunder hit Pikachu, I performed an up-smash (as this was near the ground). To my surprise, Pikachu, who was only at 70% rocketed upwards to a star-ko. I don't think that this is a case of bad DI, since even that should cause you to die 30-40% earlier. Any thoughts?
 

Niko_K

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. Are you saying if you were to c-stick down and hold Z to charge a d-smash, you would still DI down even if you were to hold up the entire time it's charging?
That is exactly what I'm saying, it's ridiculously stupid.

I just tested it out, and appears that yeah, that's the case. The registered "up" from the up smash stays even if you hit another direction.
Thanks for confirming how stupid this is.

This should get some attention too...
 

infomon

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I thought that this may fit here, since it also involves killing at low percents. Yesterday, I was playing as Falco against my sister, a Pikachu main on Final Destination. She was in the air and performed thunder. Right after the thunder hit Pikachu, I performed an up-smash (as this was near the ground). To my surprise, Pikachu, who was only at 70% rocketed upwards to a star-ko. I don't think that this is a case of bad DI, since even that should cause you to die 30-40% earlier. Any thoughts?
This would be very interesting, if the "smash-charge vulnerability" exists for some specials, too. But alas, I was not able to reproduce this on Pikachu. (Although I discovered I could clash Sonic's Fsmash with Pikachu's thunder.... what the heck!) But my tests weren't that thorough, and it might be worth experimenting with other Specials, like Falcon Punch or something that can charge, like Link's arrows maybe? iunno.
 

Adapt

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I tried a number of specials and couldn't get this effect on any of them.

I didn't try all the charging specials though
 
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