The Short-Hop Triple Laser (SHTL) Thread

[Shinymonkey8]

First of all, I believe camping is an incredibly important part of Fox's game. That little bit of extra damage is sometimes vitally important, and can be the deciding factor of whether you'll get the kill. I always wince whenever I see Foxes who don't or rarely laser.

I don't want to call this a guide yet, since I'm no pro at the SHTL, but I'd like to share how I learned it and my thoughts on it in general. Any Fox pros who want to share valuable information, please post any tips/whatever you know here. If I get enough info, I'll organize it into a guide. I haven't seen an in-depth guide of SHTL anywhere, just a few paragraphs of how to do it for some people, so hopefully this will help the community.
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So I was trying to figure out why I kept losing as Fox. I started asking for advice, and I would consistently get, "Camp more," "More lazors," stuff like that. I remember convincing myself that I'll learn it without practicing, and then doing nothing about it.

I started watching more top Fox videos, and noticed that they could SHTL effortlessly and almost never get punished for it. I had tried it a few times (without changing any buttons on the controller), and realized that it was unbelievably difficult and gave up. A few weeks go by again, and I keep getting the same advice. Finally I take it in to practice. Here's where I go into detail on the learning process:

Beginning

I change the 'X' to special so I could move between Jump and Special easily. SHTL is still incredibly difficult to do consistently.

I switch to having 'up' on the d-pad as jump. SHTL is much easier and actually doable since I don't have to move my thumb off of special. I stick with this method for a few days.

I realize I'm getting punished hard everytime I try to SHTL. This is because I can't move back and forth immediately after since my thumb is on the D-pad and not the control stick. I resort back to switching 'X' to special since it is possible to do this with this method.

Summary: The 'X'/'Y' to special method is optimal because it allows you to move around before and after the SHTL.

Learning

What you want to do to start off is go to training mode on Final Destination. Basically, I'm going to go step-by-step of what exercises one should do to perfect the SHTL.

1. To begin, practice sliding or rolling (I find rolling easier) your thumb from 'Y' to 'X' rapidly. Make the roll quick or else you won't get your short hop. What you are doing here is buffering a laser immediately after a short hop. If you're doing it correctly, you shouldn't hear the sound of Fox jumping, only the sound of the laser, and Fox should be doing a short hop and shooting a laser at the apex of the jump. Practice this until you can do it consecutively many times in a row. You cannot perform a SHTL unless you can buffer a laser after a short hop.

2. Add another laser. You won't have to press special immediately after rolling your thumb since you buffered the first laser, but don't wait too long, since Fox will begin the animation for putting his blaster away, and the second laser will have lag. If you're doing this right, Fox should fire two lasers at the top of his short hop.

3. Add the last laser. At this point, you should be rolling your thumb from 'Y' to 'X', and then rapidly press 'X', two more times. I find it easier to wait a moment before adding the last two lasers, since pressing 'X' three times in a row rapidly is difficult. It won't affect anything since luckily, the buffer time for the lasers is lenient enough. If you are doing it right, Fox should jump and fire two lasers at the top of the jump, and then should fire a silent laser (you shouldn't hear the sound) at the bottom. Practice this until you can perform it consecutively. Don't go on to the next steps until you can do this at least ten times in a row.

[COLLAPSE="Random note"]I'm not sure why this happens, but sometimes when I do a single SHTL and stand in place afterwards, Fox will fire all three lasers including the silent laser, but he will also fire one on the ground after the silent laser like some kind of a 'ghost laser'. I am definitely only pressing special three times and yet four lasers come out, but this only happens when I get a specific timing. Any explanations?[/COLLAPSE]
4. Now we get in to moving around. First, start the dash animation by smashing forward on the control stick. Immediately after, let the control stick snap back to the original position and input the SHTL. If you keep the control stick down, you will do an illusion instead of a SHTL. Trust me, this will happen a ton at first, but don't get discouraged. Fox should move forward and then SHTL, carrying a bit of the forward momentum of the dash. If you can't do the SHTL after the dash, start with a single laser and work your way up.

5. Now practice dashing forward SHTL, and then rapidly turning around and dash backward SHTL. The same mechanics of step 4 apply here.

6. This is where it gets difficult. You're going to start accidentally illusioning ALL THE TIME. Now you need to learn to dash forward and do a SHTL the opposite direction. To do this, you need to smash forward on the control stick to start the dash, and then when Fox is dashing, rapidly smash it in the opposite direction. This will start the turn-around animation. While Fox is turning around, you need to SHTL. At first, you can wait later in the turn around animation and then jump so you can get a feel for the timing, but eventually, it should all be one quick motion. Remember to let the control stick snap back to center position. Do this back and forth until you can get it consistently.

7. The hardest one, in my opinion. Now, do a reverse SHTL, but when you reach the ground, continue moving the same way you came from by dashing forward. Then do another reverse SHTL. Then start doing it the other way. Now you should be dashing right and shooting three lasers left twice, and doing the same thing the opposite way.

8. Once you can do this, start changing it up. Dash forward SHTL, Dash backward SHTL, just make sure you got this down in muscle memory.

Applying

9. Now you need to start implementing the SHTL into your game. Once you feel comfortable, change the computer (whom you've been lasering all this time and is probably somewhere in the 999% unless you've given to temptation and Usmashed him, I hope I'm not the only one...) to 'Walk' mode. Follow it and run around it, lasering the whole time, using the SHTL and reverse SHTL techniques you learned.

10. Once you have this down, change the computer to 'Attack' mode and start with a low level CPU. Follow it around with your SHTL and avoid its attacks. This will help your spacing and make sure you don't get punished often.

11. Continue gradually increasing the CPU level until you're at lvl 9. Try some real matches with a lvl 9. You will find yourself gradually forgetting to laser as the fight goes on. Basically, you need to make it a habit of lasering in the down time, ALWAYS. Laser after a forward throw instead of dashing after and trying to follow up. Do a full hop and laser when the opponent has been sent flying and is falling down towards the ledge. I'm still nowhere near good at always remembering to laser. Put a sign on your TV that says 'laser' if you think it will help! Just get it hammered in your head to LASER LASER LASER.

12. Not much to do from here. Try it against other people and continue to improve over time.

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This is how I learned how to SHTL, but everyone has different styles of learning, so it may not work for some people.

I think SHTL is actually easier to perform than a SH silent laser or a Short Hop Double Laser (second laser silent). This is simply because SHTL does not require any major timing of hitting the special button like a silent laser does. This is just my opinion though.

If anyone sees anything wrong or has anything they'd like to add, or even wants to share their experience in learning how to SHTL, please don't stay silent about it! Hopefully this thread saves some people some time in practice mode.

 

[fox67890]

I personally use the same control scheme you do to do SHTL.
If I want to FHTL though (to get three lasers to hit people standing on BF's middle platform or on SV's moving platform) I actually use "R" to jump and I think I use B to laser.

"I'm not sure why this happens, but sometimes when I do a single SHTL and stand in place afterwards, Fox will fire all three lasers including the silent laser, but he will also fire one on the ground after the silent laser like some kind of a 'ghost laser'"

If this is happening, you are probably inputting SHTL a bit too fast. Fast enough such that you just missed the buffering window for the short hop, but managed to get the laser in there.

What else...

Obviously SHTL is good, but don't underestimate a simple short hop single laser. The only way to move with SHTL is to move with a fox trot, while with SHSL, you can jump back and forth. Personally, when I'm far away from the opponent's "burst range" (I can explain this concept if you don't know it) I SHTL, but when I'm close to it, I short hop single laser to weave in and out of their range. At first, I didn't really see the importance of SHSL when you can SHTL, but SHSL is really important. I personally never use SHDL though.

Also, lasering is important, but if you were to forward throw them or something and you see an opening, I think it would be better to close in and go for combo rather than just sit back and laser. Lasers rack up damage, but combos do also and faster. If you see an opening, exploit it. You might not get another chance soon. Obviously, stay unpredictable though.

My thoughts:

All fox mains should seriously learn how to SHTL or SHSL out of reflector when you reflect a projectile. Honestly, the only person who I ever see do this is TKD and myself obviously. If one can't do this, then it's fairly simple for other opponents to actually out-camp you instead.

Question:

What do other Fox mains think about RAR B reversal SHTL, as shown here?

My first impression was that learning how to RAR B reversal SHTL wasn't really that important, but now I'm having second thoughts.

Watch this video

I understand it's an old vido of Kasper (who doesn't even main fox .-.), but that's not the point.

From this video, it can clearly be seen that learning to RAR B reversal SHTL consistently can increase mobility well as seen around 0:29-0:33 in that video.

Also, look at 0:48. As Marth was incoming with a fair, Kasper used a RAR B reversal SHTL to not only hit him with all three lasers, but to also stay just right outside his range. It you look closely, there was actually room for punishment.

So in other words, I think RAR B reversal SHTL can be used to lure people in, add laser damage, and punish all at the same time.

Thoughts? Is this useful? Is it worth learning to do consistently?



Perhaps I should take the time to learn how to "rain laser"

...Wall of text... is a wall...
:|

 

[crifer]

What do other Fox mains think about RAR B reversal SHTL, as shown here?

My first impression was that learning how to RAR B reversal SHTL wasn't really that important, but now I'm having second thoughts.

Watch this video

I understand it's an old vido of Kasper (who doesn't even main fox .-.), but that's not the point.

From this video, it can clearly be seen that learning to RAR B reversal SHTL consistently can increase mobility well as seen around 0:29-0:33 in that video.

Also, look at 0:48. As Marth was incoming with a fair, Kasper used a RAR B reversal SHTL to not only hit him with all three lasers, but to also stay just right outside his range. It you look closely, there was actually room for punishment.

the first video is mine :D
I was inspired by Kasper for doin this, and I can do it pretty consistently right now...(Zeton was surprised at APEX :-) )
and I already punished people with this by spacing right outside of their range (against marth´s, mk´s and other characters that like to fair).
Only Problem is, that you need much more space in order to set up this kind of movement because you need the space for a dash until you are able to turn around and do a RAR.
It´s possible, but more difficult... but sexy as hell.

EDIT!: IMO SHTL is not that important in the most MU´s since it main purpose is to make the opponent come to you and not to build damage.
A lot of fox players camp too hard and are gettin punished for that... you can deal 20 % per lasers each stock, but it´s not worth it if you get 25 % for that :D

 

[fox67890]

the first video is mine :D
I was inspired by Kasper for doin this, and I can do it pretty consistently right now...(Zeton was surprised at APEX :-) )
and I already punished people with this by spacing right outside of their range (against marth´s, mk´s and other characters that like to fair).

Yeah, learning how do it consistently is kind of challenging for me. It's pretty impressive that you can do it with ease.

But on that note, since you can do it consistently, do you mind explaining the inputs to do it? I feel like I am messing up because I'm pressing the wrong buttons/ perhaps in the wrong order.

Only Problem is, that you need much more space in order to set up this kind of movement because you need the space for a dash until you are able to turn around and do a RAR.
It´s possible, but more difficult... but sexy as hell.

True also. It clearly does have it's limitations and definitely should not be over used. Something about running up to the opponent and doing an SHTL right in front of them probably would encourage them to try to punish though, which you could take advantage of with the B reversal.

EDIT!: IMO SHTL is not that important in the most MU´s since it main purpose is to make the opponent come to you and not to build damage.
A lot of fox players camp too hard and are gettin punished for that... you can deal 20 % per lasers each stock, but it´s not worth it if you get 25 % for that :D

I personally use SHTL rather than other laser techs for three main reasons:

1) For me, it helps with buffering the jump, so that I'll fire the max amount of lasers at a time
2) You'll always get a silent laser no matter what. This is really good against really short characters. If someone can buffer the jump every time and fire a short hop silent laser though, that is really good.
3) It discourages the opponent from certain options. Or in other words, it hurts people who like to short hop like wario, olimar (I think), and maybe TL.

I agree that some foxes "camp too hard," so to speak. Obviously camping is good, but if that is your only mindset, then you will get punished for it. Exploiting openings while lasering is key.

 

[Shinymonkey8]

I agree with basically everything that's been said. I'm a little confused as to the input of the RAR b reversal SHTL as well though.

I didn't see the value in a SHSL before, but now I do. I'll have to try and practice that. I could add every laser technique and just make this a 'Fox Laser Thread' or something along those lines.

And as for 'camping too hard,' where is the distinction between too hard and just right? I think if we could find a point, it would be helpful. Also, shouldn't practice make it easier to avoid SHTLing at the wrong time and getting punished? You say camping can't be your only mindset, but I think it should be your mindset only in certain situations. You can switch back to it whenever.

 

[fox67890]

And as for 'camping too hard,' where is the distinction between too hard and just right? I think if we could find a point, it would be helpful. Also, shouldn't practice make it easier to avoid SHTLing at the wrong time and getting punished? You say camping can't be your only mindset, but I think it should be your mindset only in certain situations. You can switch back to it whenever.

Well, imo:
SHTL at all opportunities to force them to approach.
When close to their burst range, start SHSLing and look for an opening/maybe read.

The reason why I switch to SHSL is because there is less of a commitment in buffering and because it gives more mobility. When the opponent is close to you, this is important. SHTL, however, limits these things.


Perhaps I used the wrong term when I said "camping too hard". The reason I think me and possibly crifer used that term is because when a new fox main learns how to SHTL, that's usually all they focus on. They sometimes get hit out of an SHTL because they were committing to hard to it when the opponent was approaching or they give up too much space on the stage by constantly retreating (not that particularly you are doing these things. It's just something that I have seen in new fox mains. Heck, I used to do this also).

If you are too committed to lasering, you may find yourself doing constant retreating SHTLs. Eventually, perhaps, you'll find yourself at the edge of the stage where you can't move much. This means that the opponent can zone you better, which is really bad for fox because a lot of character zone him well imo.

What I originally meant was that if you see a valuable option that your opponent has, but can't use, you should switch from defensive to offense. (When I said hard camping, I meant not taking advantage of this opportunity)

For example,
If I down throw marth I could generally...
1) switch from camping > offensive
2) stay back and laser

Option one is great because you no longer have to worry about a constant stream of Fairs coming from him. He's in the air, where he's vulnerable, and you should take advantage of that. You might now get another opportunity soon to counter attack.

Option two, however, does also have it uses. After you down throw him, you can approach with a fox trot and then back off with retreating SHTLs. Depending on how he reacted to you when you got near, you can try to punish that same reaction next time. Also, if you don't want to risk anything because you are at a high percent and can get killed, option two could work well.


I think it's best to switch from offensive back to camping when your opponent escapes from your combos or you find yourself in a bad situation. When they are coming back onto stage, I also sometimes switch back to camping.

Edit: the activity in this thread pleases me~

 

[Shinymonkey8]

So basically, what you're trying to say is SHTL far away and SHSL close up? And switch up when you're offensive and when you're campy to not let the opponent figure out a way past your campiness. You've got a lot of good information here, I might have to use some of it!

 

[fox67890]

So basically, what you're trying to say is SHTL far away and SHSL close up? And switch up when you're offensive and when you're campy to not let the opponent figure out a way past your campiness. You've got a lot of good information here, I might have to use some of it!

Exactly! When you chose to SHSL, make sure to stay mobile by hoping back and forth if you have to.

Switching up being offensive and campy is also good. If you can, make it difficult for your opponent to tell if you are zoning them or baiting them (this can be kinda tricky though). Depending on what they do, you could punish and capitalize.

If your opponent is far away, you should almost always laser. When they get closer to their "burst range" though, "dancing" around right outside of their range with SHSL is what I personally do.

Um, since Iblis is putting some emphasis on this, I might as well also. If you haven't already, read the first post and watch the video found in this thread, which goes over burst range. Learning how to incorporate lasering with your spacing and your opponent's is key as fox.

Occasionally, when you are just outside his burst range, you can hit him with you own "burst range attack" because they (hopefully) won't be expecting it. When opponents are forced to approach fox, they usually approach carefully so they don't get punished. When they are careful, you can try to hit them with your own burst range attack as a mix up. This works well because it's a sudden shift from lasering>offensive.

On that note, fox's "burst range attack", imo, is his shield-grab from skid. If you don't know what this is, I can explain it.

I'm not sure if what I just typed made any sense... ah well...

 

[Shinymonkey8]

After reading that thread, I do understand what you're saying. I've always used dash attack as a 'burst range attack', but shield-grab from skid works just as well.
Another thing: is there any easy way to hop back and forth and SHSL? Whenever I try it, I end up b-reversing and shooting the other way.

 

[Disaster Master]

My eyes hurt from reading all of this.

SHTL feels really mobility limited to me and I only feel comfortable using it from far range.

To stop the b-reversing just hold the joystick slightly in the direction you want to shoot when you press b.

 

[Conviction]

Give me a vid of yourself and ill explain bursting

 

[fox67890]

Another thing: is there any easy way to hop back and forth and SHSL? Whenever I try it, I end up b-reversing and shooting the other way.

Um, it seems pretty simple for me.
iirc, it's like this:
If your want to jump right and SHSL:
Jump right (for effectiveness, go right as you jump, not jump and then go right)>let go of control stick>press B close to the ground
If you are B-reversing it though, I think it's because you are pressing B and then a direction.

My eyes hurt from reading all of this.

SHTL feels really mobility limited to me and I only feel comfortable using it from far range

Well, there is a lot of text from a few posts :|. Perhaps it's because I am posting too much. Back to lurking...

And that's why I just SHSL from a close range and SHTL when they are further way. SHSL gives the mobility you need without a hard commitment.

 

[Disaster Master]

So all this about SHTL and SHSL, but what about SHDL?

 

[Conviction]

SHDL is useless imo.

1st - SHL
2nd - SHTL
3rd - SHDL

SHDL accomplishes less than SHTL and takes about the same commitment to do SHDL so yeah it's not worth it.

EDIT: Fox's burst range is the length his dash attack goes.

 

[Disaster Master]

Has anyone noticed while your running, if you reverse blaster fox slides back?

 

[Conviction]

Wavebounce

 

[Kuares]

Another thing: is there any easy way to hop back and forth and SHSL? Whenever I try it, I end up b-reversing and shooting the other way.

Yeah, it's pretty easy and just something you have to practice. It's pretty much the same thing you'd do for Melee Falco's SHFFL(minus fast fall).

Right Dash/run->jump->Left input->Neutral position->Laser
You'll move right but shoot left.

 

[crifer]

input of RAR SHTL B reversal:

1. you initiate a dash/run [for example to the right}
2. do a RAR (turn around) [f.e. to the left]
3. get the feeling when fox is going to turn around while dashing/running
4. do a SHTL
5. b reverse it [f.e. press right]

the last input is actually really easy, bc you can buffer the third laser and have a lot of time to prepare for the b reversal. (I think SHTL B reversal is easier than single laser b reversal).