The Second Pokémon on the Dex - Ivysaur's Magical Leap

Lorde

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#41
Yeah there's a few good ones but the rest are kinda samey. Oh well.
yeah i’m a little disappointed, but they all do look good at least. i would have liked it if they were more adventurous with her palettes like in pm

all 3 pokémon kinda got shafted in the palettes department. both squirtle and ivysaur’s palettes are all very similar to each for the most part. charizard’s palettes are pretty decent overall, but they stayed in the same order as they were in smash 4, which means that there are certain trainers where charizard is blatantly mismatched with the other two pokémon’s palettes
 
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Mewtwo

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#43
I had a thought today while looking at my Charizard amiibo. I think we'll get a Squirtle amiibo and Ivysaur amiibo separately. They are treated as distinct characters according to Sakurai's numbering scheme after all. And then, I think you'll be able to use any of the three Pokemon for the purposes of an FP, kinda like how you can use any Mario amiibo (whether that's Smash, gold, silver, Mario series) for a Mario FP. There maaaay also be amiibo for the Pokemon trainer(s), and again it won't matter which one you scan, they'd all work for the Pokemon Trainer FP.

Also like the different Mario amiibo for example, some games register them as all the same (like Smash) and some will actually distinguish them (like Mario Maker). So I look forward to getting a standalone Ivysaur amiibo. :)
 
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#45
Razor leaf seems to have a ton of interesting uses. Has anyone seen an Ivysaur chase the slow version of razor leaf in for a safe approach? How useful do you think this is?
 
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#47
Is vine whip really so much worse a an attack and recovery in this game?
No, it was just terrible recovery to begin with, and is only slightly improved by the lack of helplessness and edgehogging.

As an attack though it's incredibly strong for how quick it is, and the no helplessness makes it safer to chase with.
 
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#48
No, it was just terrible recovery to begin with, and is only slightly improved by the lack of helplessness and edgehogging.

As an attack though it's incredibly strong for how quick it is, and the no helplessness makes it safer to chase with.
At the very least I've seen that it doesn't kill early in midair anymore. Is it stronger on the ground?
 

chaostails7

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#50
"Slightly improved" by lack of edgehogging? That system change singlehandedly saved it from being the worst recovery in the game hands down. The fact that it goes farther now is also a bonus - I'd say it's still below average, but has escaped bottom 10 for sure.
 
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#51
You're sure those hits were sweetspotted?
Yeah, I'm sure. I mean it does still kill midair I guess, but not until later percentages. I'm used to Project M Ivysaur, I suppose. Either way, a few of the peiple with leaked copies are saying it's one of very few nerfs Ivysaur reveived. Hopefully I can figure something out with Ivysaur when the game comes out.

EDIT: Not sure how to paste the quote from chaostails7's post on mobile, but I also wanted to say I've seen a lot of footage of vine whip just going through the ledge or missing by like two inches and not grabbing it. Hopefully that's been fixed with the day-one patch.
 
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#52
Always annoy me that squir tle and piranha plant has a better recovery than ivysaur(a waterfall that comes out of nowhere and rotating leafs that help piranha hover versus well a grabbing vine whip).
 
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Putuk

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#53
Ivysaur has pretty okay recovery, due to the "Charizard" move. It's great for recovery, but practically useless for anything else.
 
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#54
Always annoy me that squir tle and piranha plant has a better recovery than ivysaur(a waterfall that comes out of nowhere and rotating leafs that help piranha hover versus well a grabbing vine whip).
What can I say, Jumping Piranha Plants are a thing. Flying Ivysaurs aren't.
 

chaostails7

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#55
I've seen a lot of footage of vine whip just going through the ledge or missing by like two inches and not grabbing it. Hopefully that's been fixed with the day-one patch.
I think that's actually a quirk of the move that's possible to work around. That seems to happen mainly when you are even slightly below the ledge when you use it. Ivysaur can hit 90 degrees, but as soon as you go to 91, it whiffs.
 
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#56
I think that's actually a quirk of the move that's possible to work around. That seems to happen mainly when you are even slightly below the ledge when you use it. Ivysaur can hit 90 degrees, but as soon as you go to 91, it whiffs.
What a lame problem to have, though. That Charizard move joke pretty much hit the nail on the head, unfortunately (though I'll also just use charizard too).
 

1FC0

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#59
At least Ivysaur can switch to Chariard in order to recover so no matter how bad his recovery is there is a way around that problem. Also Little MAc's recovery got buffed now I think.
 

Kevandre

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#60
I am gonna have to train hard to git gud with Ultimate Ivysaur. Played her a metric ton in Brawl and almost exclusively in PM. Very excited for her return.

And yeah.. I GUESS I should probably train on Squirtle and Charizard too... Might as well take full advantage of what I have, with the change being so much faster now
 

1FC0

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#61
I used to also mainly play Ivysaur in SSBB despite the fact that he was clearly the worst of the three. But it sounds like this time he is much better than he was in SSBB.
 

Kevandre

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#62
I used to also mainly play Ivysaur in SSBB despite the fact that he was clearly the worst of the three. But it sounds like this time he is much better than he was in SSBB.
You think so? I always felt Charizard was the weakest link back then
 

1FC0

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#63
You think so? I always felt Charizard was the weakest link back then
Ivysaur's recovery was arguably the worst in the game and to boot he had a weakness to fire effect moves and half of the cast had fire effect kill moves. This made him like a lightweight to half of the cast with the most gimpable recovery in the whole game. And what did he get to make up for it? Not much.

I favoured him solely because I thought he looked cool. And admittedly I found it hilarious to keep heavies trapped in Bullet Seed for a few seconds and 40%+ damage, especially if that heavy was Charizard since his grass resistance helped keeping him in. Of course they removed that jank unfortunately.

I thought that Zard was the second worst and Squirtle the third worst.
 
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#64
Ivysaur's recovery was arguably the worst in the game and to boot he had a weakness to fire effect moves and half of the cast had fire effect kill moves. This made him like a lightweight to half of the cast with the most gimpable recovery in the whole game. And what did he get to make up for it? Not much.

I favoured him solely because I thought he looked cool. And admittedly I found it hilarious to keep heavies trapped in Bullet Seed for a few seconds and 40%+ damage, especially if that heavy was Charizard since his grass resistance helped keeping him in. Of course they removed that jank unfortuinately.

I thought that Zard was the second worst and Squirtle the third worst.
I kind of wish Bullet Seed was longer in ultimate if they were bad at SDI'ing out of it amd you held the button, but otherwise had the current length and finisher of you just did the move normally. Oh well, can't have everything. Question though: What sorts of angles can razor leaf be aimed at, and what's the difference in range between smash and normal, now that it isn't random?
 

Guybrush20X6

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#65
I gotta say, that's tether wiffing nonsesne aside, Ivysaur is better than ever.

I picked Ivy up after unlocking PKMN Trnr and it's like I never left.

Love the new neutral aerial and how bullet seed deletes Stamina mode fights.
 
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#66
I gotta say, that's tether wiffing nonsesne aside, Ivysaur is better than ever.

I picked Ivy up after unlocking PKMN Trnr and it's like I never left.

Love the new neutral aerial and how bullet seed deletes Stamina mode fights.
Bullet Seed in general seems weirdly good in this game. It's not even a bad situational out of shield option if they go too deep, in my experience so far.
 

Kith

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#67
I actually feel like Bullet Seed was nerfed in this game. I don't remember the exact frame data, but I wouldn't be surprised if it used to come out on Frame 1 since it constantly got me out of chain grabs in Brawl. It's still a great punish though.

That being said, Ivysaur is undoubtedly like 1000% better in SSBU. She was one of the worst characters in the game in Brawl, but now she's a fantastic mid-range zoner. B-air and F-air are great, Razor Leaf is great, U-Air is great. And best of all, the fact that you can switch to Charizard off stage to not be gimped is fantastic. I'm still trying to get my feel for Squirtle again, since they got rid of all the Hydro-grabbing, hydro-jabbing, hydro-shenanigans. I feel like that's a bit of a nerf to Squirtle for high level play, but if it means Ivysaur is this good, I'm okay with it
 

Mewtwo

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#68
A lot of Ivysaur's moves are crazy good. Can't tell you how many times I'd do something like throw at Razor Leaves, then when the opponent jumps over them to land on me I just use Bullet Seed. Gets 'em every time. Really good spacing options and some great kill moves. Picking up Ivysaur again felt so natural to me--love it!

That being said, it's really frustrating how Vine Whip won't grab the ledge if you're too far under (less then 90 degrees or whatever)--it's so counter-intuitive because for all other characters, this strategy works because your recovery will snap to the ledge. Ugh.
 
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#69
A lot of Ivysaur's moves are crazy good. Can't tell you how many times I'd do something like throw at Razor Leaves, then when the opponent jumps over them to land on me I just use Bullet Seed. Gets 'em every time. Really good spacing options and some great kill moves. Picking up Ivysaur again felt so natural to me--love it!

That being said, it's really frustrating how Vine Whip won't grab the ledge if you're too far under (less then 90 degrees or whatever)--it's so counter-intuitive because for all other characters, this strategy works because your recovery will snap to the ledge. Ugh.
Ivysaur's recovery is one of the biggest things in this game that offends my eyes when it breaks.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#71
Is Ivysaur broken? He has some ridiculous combos, some leading to death at 70 percent. Early percent combos from up air that lead to 50ish damage. Huge hit boxes with up air, down air, and up b. I know Squirtle and Charizard tie him up a bit, but I think Ivy brings Pokemon Trained to high tier, maybe top.
 
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#72
Is Ivysaur broken? He has some ridiculous combos, some leading to death at 70 percent. Early percent combos from up air that lead to 50ish damage. Huge hit boxes with up air, down air, and up b. I know Squirtle and Charizard tie him up a bit, but I think Ivy brings Pokemon Trained to high tier, maybe top.
If you're routinely taking 50% from Ivysaur at low percents, then your opponent either has slow reflexes or is using a character with very bad airspeed. Most of these combos are also tied to it's grab, which is slow, or close range Razor Leaves which are risky.

He also has an atrocious disadvantage that is easily worse than Charizard's; slower in the air, only one jump, bad landing aerials on shield (down aerial may be somewhat dangerous with it's hitbox but it's momentum cutting makes it more punishable than it looks) and a recovery that makes the Belmont's look amazing; any aerial with decent coverage next to the ledge and just below will ruin Ivy, if you don't just go far to take advantage of him having next to zero viable mixups on it.

You say you know Squirtle and Charizard compensate for Ivy's shortcomings, but I don't think you fully grasp just how much they do or you wouldn't be saying Ivy is broken. As it is solo Ivy is a gatekeeper at best: seems really oppressive to weaker characters with bad approaches and/or disadvantage, but anyone who doesn't suffer those can take down Ivy quite handily.
 
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#73
Well I've been in Elite Smash for a while now with Pokemon Trainer mostly using Ivysaur. I only switch to Charizard if I lose a stock, and vice versa (I don't really play Squirtle). People underestimate Ivysaur, and when you force yourself to rely on its recovery you learn to shake it up--stall a little before grabbing the ledge, grabbing it at different heights to throw your opponent off, etc. It's got a really long range and you can snap to the ledge quickly. Sure I've been gimped a couple times but that's a small percentage.

Is Ivysaur broken though? No. No one in the game is broken.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#74
If you're routinely taking 50% from Ivysaur at low percents, then your opponent either has slow reflexes or is using a character with very bad airspeed. Most of these combos are also tied to it's grab, which is slow, or close range Razor Leaves which are risky.

He also has an atrocious disadvantage that is easily worse than Charizard's; slower in the air, only one jump, bad landing aerials on shield (down aerial may be somewhat dangerous with it's hitbox but it's momentum cutting makes it more punishable than it looks) and a recovery that makes the Belmont's look amazing; any aerial with decent coverage next to the ledge and just below will ruin Ivy, if you don't just go far to take advantage of him having next to zero viable mixups on it.

You say you know Squirtle and Charizard compensate for Ivy's shortcomings, but I don't think you fully grasp just how much they do or you wouldn't be saying Ivy is broken. As it is solo Ivy is a gatekeeper at best: seems really oppressive to weaker characters with bad approaches and/or disadvantage, but anyone who doesn't suffer those can take down Ivy quite handily.
I'll admit I was being a bit dramatic. Basically my question is: Will they give Ivy the King K treatment and nerf him just because people complain enough? I don't think he's SSS tier, but I definitely think he has enough cheese to push his way to the top.

It's just disheartening hearing people constantly complain about the hitboxes and combos, some even discrediting my skill as a player because of my character. Obviously I don't believe them, but it does make me worry for Ivysaur's future in the meta.
 
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