The Sassy Princess of Sarasaland: Daisy Discussion

[StarCrystal20]

I’m obsessed with Daisy yet happy she got in even as an echo. I main Peach so... win for me!

 

[staindgrey]

Geez, you guys sound REALLY ungrateful for an extra on top of every single character in the series returning. Knock if off.

Oh, sorry. Were we bothering you when you came into a Daisy-specific thread?

You're not my dad.

 

[Almand]

Don't be so upset people, Echo fighters have been categorized since Melee, the only difference this time is that they got a name, watch how Daisy will get decloned in the next Smash like most of the other clones were in the other games.

They didn't have a name until now, which heavily implies their status as a clone was planned before Daisy was even thought up. The team specifically chose these characters to not be unique because of that name, which will likely open the way to many other characters who will not be unique (rather than thinking up a unique character and settling for a clone because of time restraints, they now look at the idea of an Echo Fighter and rack their brains for a character that fits the model, for example. Minimal changes, and the only personality is reserved to taunts, entrance, and idle animations). And that just feels lazy. We're happy she's in, just look at all the Daisy icons in our profile things, that say we're gonna main her. It's just bittersweet to get her this way.
Think of it like this: would people still be as happy if Ridley was just a Charizard Echo?

 

[staindgrey]

Think of it like this: would people still be as happy if Ridley was just a Charizard Echo?

That's an excellent analogy. There would be a much more vocal backlash to that, I think.

 

[Quarium]

I haven't posted on smashboards in a good while, but I had to come share the enthusiasm for my girl Daisy finally getting a spot in any circumstance! Very happy and interested in playing her, she looks very adorable and lively.

 

[SonicBoom403]

Daisy could end up becoming a semi-clone by the next game if there is a next game. Luigi started off being near identical to Mario and now he's no longer a Mario clone in Smash Bros. Even Dr. Mario is a semi-clone now. I was hoping Daisy would've been a unique fighter but I'm fine with her as a Peach clone. Peach is already one of my mains.

I think Daisy was most likely a late inclusion as well. She probably made it into the roster just for appearing in Super Mario Run. There may have not been enough time to give her a unique moveset so she became an Echo Fighter of Peach.

 

[DaisyandRosalina]

They didn't have a name until now, which heavily implies their status as a clone was planned before Daisy was even thought up. The team specifically chose these characters to not be unique because of that name, which will likely open the way to many other characters who will not be unique (rather than thinking up a unique character and settling for a clone because of time restraints, they now look at the idea of an Echo Fighter and rack their brains for a character that fits the model, for example. Minimal changes, and the only personality is reserved to taunts, entrance, and idle animations). And that just feels lazy. We're happy she's in, just look at all the Daisy icons in our profile things, that say we're gonna main her. It's just bittersweet to get her this way.
Think of it like this: would people still be as happy if Ridley was just a Charizard Echo?

This however doesn't mean that she won't be less unique in future installements or that she is less important than other fighter, in fact, classification number aside, she is just like every other fighter in the game with her own slot, alternates, Amiibo and anything else. Even if she had moveset potential (she still has since not every attack was fully revelated yet) she is in and has her chance to shine, this is the most important thing. Calling her Echo fighter doesn't changes much really, remember Melee with half of the newcomers being clones placed near their similar fighter or in 4 when they were placed all togheter? They are just the old clones nothing more, name or not, I am positive about that.

 

[Almand]

This however doesn't mean that she won't be less unique in future installements or that she is less important than other fighter, in fact, classification number aside, she is just like every other fighter in the game with her own slot, alternates, Amiibo and anything else. Even if she had moveset potential (she still has since not every attack was fully revelated yet) she is in and has her chance to shine, this is the most important thing. Calling her Echo fighter doesn't changes much really, remember Melee with half of the newcomers being clones placed near their similar fighter or in 4 when they were placed all togheter? They are just the old clones nothing more, name or not, I am positive about that.

Looking back at 64, Melee, and Brawl, the notorious clones wouldn't actually be Echo Fighters, chances are. They have some different moves, different attributes (like speed, weight, and animations), and vastly different metagames. Echoes, on the other hand, only differ in very minimal ways, and are confirmed to have no attribute changes. So they're even less unique than, say, Dr. Mario in Melee or Luigi in 64.
Calling her an Echo Fighter doesn't kill her chances to be unique in another game, of course, but it'll always stick a little. She'll always be based on Peach, even if she gets plenty of other moves (Jigglypuff, for example, was a clone of Kirby in 64. To this day, she still retains Kirby's Dair, Nair, and sorta Fair from that game. Ganon, we all know, still has Neutral B, Up B, Down B, Up Air, Bair, Dair, and Nair from Falcon, despite now having his sword in his new smashes). It'll still be evident who Daisy came from, it's just a question of what will be retained. If she wasn't a clone, though, she'd likely have no affiliation to Peach besides appearance.
Now, that's not an issue, just something that'll bug people like me. She has her own slot, costumes, entrance/idle/taunt animations, so on, and I'm happy for that. It's not exactly what I wanted, but I'll get over it.

 

[DaisyandRosalina]

Looking back at 64, Melee, and Brawl, the notorious clones wouldn't actually be Echo Fighters, chances are. They have some different moves, different attributes (like speed, weight, and animations), and vastly different metagames. Echoes, on the other hand, only differ in very minimal ways, and are confirmed to have no attribute changes. So they're even less unique than, say, Dr. Mario in Melee or Luigi in 64.
Calling her an Echo Fighter doesn't kill her chances to be unique in another game, of course, but it'll always stick a little. She'll always be based on Peach, even if she gets plenty of other moves (Jigglypuff, for example, was a clone of Kirby in 64. To this day, she still retains Kirby's Dair, Nair, and sorta Fair from that game. Ganon, we all know, still has Neutral B, Up B, Down B, Up Air, Bair, Dair, and Nair from Falcon, despite now having his sword in his new smashes). It'll still be evident who Daisy came from, it's just a question of what will be retained. If she wasn't a clone, though, she'd likely have no affiliation to Peach besides appearance.
Now, that's not an issue, just something that'll bug people like me. She has her own slot, costumes, entrance/idle/taunt animations, so on, and I'm happy for that. It's not exactly what I wanted, but I'll get over it.

Didn't Dr Mario had minimal differences from Mario aside few aesthetic moves like Dr stuff? In Melee, most of the clones were just like Echo fighters are, Dark Pit and Lucina seems to follow this too in Smash 4. It's true she is a clone/echo but this doesn't mean she is more of a clone than most of the other characters I mentioned, in fact her full moveset was not revelated yet, leaving more chances to her character, if you look at her rainbow attack you'll see it works in a different way than Peach's in fact it's a double rainbow (I've spent a whole day to see if Peach had a double rainbow too but turns out she only has one), her Daisy bomber works different according some people, however you said that's not the chase, who knows maybe is a tad different than Peach's but I'm not sure I need to verify it.

 

[Almand]

Didn't Dr Mario had minimal differences from Mario aside few aesthetic moves like Dr stuff? In Melee, most of the clones were just like Echo fighters are, Dark Pit and Lucina seems to follow this too in Smash 4. It's true she is a clone/echo but this doesn't mean she is more of a clone than most of the other characters I mentioned, in fact her full moveset was not revelated yet, leaving more chances to her character, if you look at her rainbow attack you'll see it works in a different way than Peach's in fact it's a double rainbow (I've spent a whole day to see if Peach had a double rainbow too but turns out she only has one), her Daisy bomber works different according some people, however you said that's not the chase, who knows maybe is a tad different than Peach's but I'm not sure I need to verify it.

Dr. Mario was different in speed in Smash 4, which makes him not an Echo Fighter. The clones in Melee (Pichu, Ganon, Roy, Falco, Dr. Mario, and Young Link) all differed in speed, while Echoes are confirmed not to. Dr. Mario, Roy, and Young Link were the least changed (all attack animations were the same), but even then, Doc was stronger but slower, Fair didn't spike, F-Smash has no sourspot, Pills couldn't be absorbed by Ness/G&W, etc. Roy was slower, had a Counter that multiplied damage taken, had a multihit Up B, Neutral B wasn't a shield-breaker anymore, etc. Young Link was faster, had Fire Arrows, grounded Up B was multihit, and F-Smash combo'd into the second hit. Compare that to Dark Pit, where exactly 3 moves are minimally different (F-Tilt, Side B, and Neutral B), Lucina had Marth's entire gimmick removed (tipper), and neither had any attribute changes.


Daisy's Up Air is a double rainbow, yes, but Peach's Up Air hasn't been shown yet, so we can't really know. Besides, Peach's Up Air in Smash 4 was a 2-hit move, so the utility remains completely unchanged (assuming Daisy and Peach really do have different Up Air animations, which I find unlikely). People have said Daisy Bomber sends downward, but that's been debunked.
My best guess is that some combo and kill tools have been swapped around (perhaps Bair kills instead of Fair, or F-throw kills instead of Back Throw. Maybe Up Tilt combos instead of Down Tilt), or something is more/less useful in some situations. Dark Pit, for example, has a horizontal angle on Side B, and Neutral B deals more damage but can't be maneuvered as much. Lucina is just less spacing-based. But Daisy... So far, we have nothing concrete. She only has a handful of moves not confirmed to be the same as Peach, and the fact that she's an Echo, by definition, means she'll be as much of a clone as Lucina and Dark Pit.

 

[DaisyandRosalina]

Dr. Mario was different in speed in Smash 4, which makes him not an Echo Fighter. The clones in Melee (Pichu, Ganon, Roy, Falco, Dr. Mario, and Young Link) all differed in speed, while Echoes are confirmed not to. Dr. Mario, Roy, and Young Link were the least changed (all attack animations were the same), but even then, Doc was stronger but slower, Fair didn't spike, F-Smash has no sourspot, Pills couldn't be absorbed by Ness/G&W, etc. Roy was slower, had a Counter that multiplied damage taken, had a multihit Up B, Neutral B wasn't a shield-breaker anymore, etc. Young Link was faster, had Fire Arrows, grounded Up B was multihit, and F-Smash combo'd into the second hit. Compare that to Dark Pit, where exactly 3 moves are minimally different (F-Tilt, Side B, and Neutral B), Lucina had Marth's entire gimmick removed (tipper), and neither had any attribute changes.


Daisy's Up Air is a double rainbow, yes, but Peach's Up Air hasn't been shown yet, so we can't really know. Besides, Peach's Up Air in Smash 4 was a 2-hit move, so the utility remains completely unchanged (assuming Daisy and Peach really do have different Up Air animations, which I find unlikely). People have said Daisy Bomber sends downward, but that's been debunked.
My best guess is that some combo and kill tools have been swapped around (perhaps Bair kills instead of Fair, or F-throw kills instead of Back Throw. Maybe Up Tilt combos instead of Down Tilt), or something is more/less useful in some situations. Dark Pit, for example, has a horizontal angle on Side B, and Neutral B deals more damage but can't be maneuvered as much. Lucina is just less spacing-based. But Daisy... So far, we have nothing concrete. She only has a handful of moves not confirmed to be the same as Peach, and the fact that she's an Echo, by definition, means she'll be as much of a clone as Lucina and Dark Pit.

I am pretty sure people noticed that Lucina was faster than Marth in Ultimate, which makes sense since she is her own character and should've been an alt if she had the same speed. The E3 presentation said itself that the Echo characters does have some differences and their attacks acts in a different way.

 

[Banjodorf]

That's an excellent analogy. There would be a much more vocal backlash to that, I think.

It's certainly *an* analogy, but I don't know if it's really accurate. Daisy and Ridley were hardly in the same position prior to SSBU's reveal. Daisy had *one* main series appearance before being effectively relegated to party games. And aside from her personality, does little to differentiate herself from Peach. Ridley on the other hand has numerous boss fights to pull from, and main series appearances in almost every game.

Daisy certainly fits as an Echo, and while it might not be the Daisy fans 100% wanted, I think it's a fair compromise. Some characters work better as echoes than others, and visual similarity isn't the only qualifier. I think Funky Kong is better suited as a DK Echo, and I doubt there's many arguing against that. Same with Dark Samus, even if Dark Samus has a better pedigree as a major character, if this is her only chance I'd rather they go the Echo route than not.

 

[Almand]

I am pretty sure people noticed that Lucina was faster than Marth in Ultimate, which makes sense since she is her own character and should've been an alt if she had the same speed. The E3 presentation said itself that the Echo characters does have some differences and their attacks acts in a different way.
View attachment 149135

We'll just have to see. I haven't looked into Lucina and Dark Pit's clone status, but based on a Nintendo Treehouse meeting on GameXplain, Echoes have no attribute changes, only minimal tweaks in terms of move behavior and utility. The Echo moniker, as far as I can tell, is just an alt with a few different animation changes, and some moves are reworked a little bit.

 

[Seanp12]

Is it too much to hope for a "Mario & Luigi: Double Date" RPG with Peach and Daisy from which they can pull moves for Daisy in a later Smash?

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I sure hope these people are right about Lucina being faster than Marth. Daisy needs to be able to go faster than Peach because she was in Sonic's speed class at the Olympics.

 

[Almand]

I sure hope these people are right about Lucina being faster than Marth. Daisy needs to be able to go faster than Peach because she was in Sonic's speed class at the Olympics.

Daisy seems to walk faster in her gameplay trailer, but then again, we haven't seen Peach walk, and it could overall just be placebo. It'd make sense for Daisy to be very fast (definitely not as slow at Peach), but really, we have no idea what'll happen. We can hope the Nintendo Treehouse "No attribute changes" thing was wrong, but who knows?

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Daisy seems to walk faster in her gameplay trailer, but then again, we haven't seen Peach walk, and it could overall just be placebo. It'd make sense for Daisy to be very fast (definitely not as slow at Peach), but really, we have no idea what'll happen. We can hope the Nintendo Treehouse "No attribute changes" thing was wrong, but who knows?

Yeah, I hope so too. Lucina is the only character that I wanted as an Echo Fighter. Dark Pit should be Luigified and Daisy should have had a different moveset based on the spinoff games. The idea of her being just the Peach alternate skin taking up an entire spot in the roster bothers me.

 

[Reila]

Yeah, I hope so too. Lucina is the only character that I wanted as an Echo Fighter. Dark Pit should be Luigified and Daisy should have had a different moveset based on the spinoff games. The idea of her being just the Peach alternate skin taking up an entire spot in the roster bothers me.

Everyone "should" have an unique moveset but that is not how game development works. Resources such as time, money and manpower aren't infinite and shareholders will want the game to be released at a certain time, they can't delay it for months or years to flesh out the characters.

I never thought I would defend a Fire Emblem character, but I don't understand why Lucina should stay as the only clone in your what-if dream scenario. It makes less sense for her to be a clone than Dark Pit, who is literally a clone of Pit.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Everyone "should" have an unique moveset but that is not how game development works. Resources such as time, money and manpower aren't infinite and shareholders will want the game to be released at a certain time, they can't delay it for months or years to flesh out the characters.

I never thought I would defend a Fire Emblem character, but I don't understand why Lucina should stay as the only clone in your what-if dream scenario. It makes less sense for her to be a clone than Dark Pit, who is literally a clone of Pit.

Because I like her as a Marth clone. Dark Pit's Final Smash, Electroshock Arm and a different arrow already feels like they are luigifying him. Dark Pit is an evil version of Pit while Lucina is trying to impersonate Marth, right? Also, I may want Angel Ring and Wings of Icarus back from Brawl because I loved the yell he made when spinning his bow and the control you have in Wings of Icarus is unique compared to Power of Flight which just looks like almost everyone's Up Special. If Pit has the Brawl moveset and Dark Pit has the Wii U moveset, then it's goodbye to Dark Pit's Echo fighter status.

 

[Almand]

Because I like her as a Marth clone. Dark Pit's Final Smash, Electroshock Arm and a different arrow already feels like they are luigifying him. Dark Pit is an evil version of Pit while Lucina is trying to impersonate Marth, right? Also, I may want Angel Ring and Wings of Icarus back from Brawl because I loved the yell he made when spinning his bow and the control you have in Wings of Icarus is unique compared to Power of Flight which just looks like almost everyone's Up Special. If Pit has the Brawl moveset and Dark Pit has the Wii U moveset, then it's goodbye to Dark Pit's Echo fighter status.

I always preferred Pit's Brawl Down B over Smash 4. If only for the "Nice try!" when he reflects something.

Either way, it just comes down to resource management. I'm sure Sakurai would have loved to respond to all of our wants by making Daisy, Lucina, and Dark Pit their own unique characters. But since everyone else is back, the existing clones were just easy additions. Give them a name, add one or two more, and you've got yourself a lazy way of actually including everyone. It sucks, I know; I never really liked Peach in Smash 4 (I honestly think she has one of the weakest movesets in the game, it's just not that interesting), so it'll be annoying to pick up Daisy in Ultimate. They could've done so much more with Daisy in this game, but Sakurai's sacrifices just so happened to include her. So unless he's been tinkering with her in the background, maybe next game? Y'know, considering she isn't cut, and Echo Fighters don't stay as a constant Clone Bucket.

 

[Seanp12]

Lucina is trying to impersonate Marth, right?

That's true, but it's also true that she uses her father's fighting style (per the Regna Ferox arena cutscene in Awakening), which is more similar to Ike than Marth. In that particular cutscene, both of them use an aerial spin that resembles Ike's aether.

 

[Deleted member]

Well while y'all are complaining about Daisy being an echo fighter I'm just ecstatic because she's in the game and honestly I never expected Sakurai would give her a unique moveset. I already recognized that at least a LOT of Peach's moves in Smash Bros. fit Daisy perfectly, so I think it's going to feel great playing as her.

 

[Godbrother11225]

-change blue toad to toadette if captain toad isn't playable.

-change frying pan to baseball bat.

-Remodel club to the one she uses in mario golf: world tour.

-keep the floating. change the sparkles to flower petals.

I just remembered Sakurai talking about character roles before. Daisy appears only in the mario versus multiplayer spin offs, and is interchangeable with the rest of the cast. The only difference between her and peach is personality. Which Sakurai did nail down.

I understand the disappointment, but me I'm just glad Sakurai put her aboard the E3 hype train, gave her a slot as an additional mario rep, amiibo, characteristics, single player functions etc etc.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

If they really want to embrace clones with Echo fighters, they'd might as well label some other former clone characters as Echoes like Pichu, Young Link, Doctor Mario, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Otherwise, just ignore the concept of clones, give Dark Pit, Lucina and Daisy their own numbers. If you can't change them that much from Smash 4, we'd forgive you. But don't polish the turd with the introduction of official Echo Fighters when the Smash fandom hates clones. This is why I wanted Daisy in shorts, so that she wouldn't be a clone of Peach. I can't believe how Sakurai took the character I wanted the most and made her the opposite way of what I wanted!

 

[Banjodorf]

If they really want to embrace clones with Echo fighters, they'd might as well label some other former clone characters as Echoes like Pichu, Young Link, Doctor Mario, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Otherwise, just ignore the concept of clones, give Dark Pit, Lucina and Daisy their own numbers. If you can't change them that much from Smash 4, we'd forgive you. But don't polish the turd with the introduction of official Echo Fighters when the Smash fandom hates clones. This is why I wanted Daisy in shorts, so that she wouldn't be a clone of Peach. I can't believe how Sakurai took the character I wanted the most and made her the opposite way of what I wanted!

It was likely either this or no Daisy at all. It's not like it's unfaithful to what Daisy is. Her defining character trait between her and Peach is her "outgoing, tomboyish personality". That's basically it.

Besides, even for a character like Ganondorf in Melee, I'd rather he be there as a clone than not there at all. Daisy has much less going for her.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Well, at least I'm glad she made it in the game. Still wish she was more inspired by the sports games. Then again, her main dress was the most voted in the above poll, so I'm happy for those people. I just hope the Peach-inspired moveset doesn't get in the way of the shorts as an alternate costume. But if the tennis shorts doesn't make it in, I'd be glad to be able to play as her in Smash Bros. She's my main in the Mario spinoffs and Peach's float looks so awesome, so it would look even better on Daisy. And I think the "Hi I'm Daisy" taunt would be the ultimate troll online. As long as you don't get banned for taunting too much.

 

[DaisyandRosalina]

What I don't get is why people classify Echoes and clones in different categories, they are the same thing.

 

[One winged Devil]

If they really want to embrace clones with Echo fighters, they'd might as well label some other former clone characters as Echoes like Pichu, Young Link, Doctor Mario, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Otherwise, just ignore the concept of clones, give Dark Pit, Lucina and Daisy their own numbers. If you can't change them that much from Smash 4, we'd forgive you. But don't polish the turd with the introduction of official Echo Fighters when the Smash fandom hates clones. This is why I wanted Daisy in shorts, so that she wouldn't be a clone of Peach. I can't believe how Sakurai took the character I wanted the most and made her the opposite way of what I wanted!

And I'm out, good luck with complaining and all that, I have not time for bull****.

 

[Seanp12]

This is why I wanted Daisy in shorts, so that she wouldn't be a clone of Peach.

I find that hard to believe, considering that you also have an entire thread dedicated to the idea of giving Echo!Daisy shorts anyway. It's okay to admit you just have a thing for girls in shorts and that's all you wanted from Daisy. Everybody's got something. For example, I happen to like girls with short hair ('cept ).

 

[staindgrey]

I find that hard to believe, considering that you also have an entire thread dedicated to the idea of giving Echo!Daisy shorts anyway. It's okay to admit you just have a thing for girls in shorts and that's all you wanted from Daisy. Everybody's got something. For example, I happen to like girls with short hair ('cept ).

I'm one of the weird guys who likes women with short hair and shorts.

But I still don't really want to apply my physical attractions to fictional characters in a Nintendo game.

If they really want to embrace clones with Echo fighters, they'd might as well label some other former clone characters as Echoes like Pichu, Young Link, Doctor Mario, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, etc.

You know. As a lifelong Link player, it's actually starting to bug me how often Toon Link is referenced as a clone. He's really not much of one. The only similarities he has are visual; his boomerang, arrows, hookshot and bombs all work very differently from Link. He's floaty as all hell, has a completely different aerial game, and all of that dramatically affects the way he plays.

Young Link was a clone that you could easily bounce back and forth between with Link in Melee. Toon Link is about as similar to Link as Luigi is to Mario.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

I find that hard to believe, considering that you also have an entire thread dedicated to the idea of giving Echo!Daisy shorts anyway. It's okay to admit you just have a thing for girls in shorts and that's all you wanted from Daisy. Everybody's got something. For example, I happen to like girls with short hair ('cept ).

Yes, I have a crush on Daisy in her shorts. But before they revealed that Daisy was an Echo, I had it in my mind that Daisy would be inspired by the sports games and wear her shorts. The other thread is me trying to hold on to hope that I could still at least see Sports!Daisy in the game despite being an Echo of Peach. I really didn't want Echo!Daisy, but hey, I'll play her when I get the game even if she doesn't get the shorts I like.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Yes, I have a crush on Daisy in her shorts.

That's not a crush. That's lust.

Get over it. Daisy's in; can't you just be happy she's here?

 

[Deleted member]

If they really want to embrace clones with Echo fighters, they'd might as well label some other former clone characters as Echoes like Pichu, Young Link, Doctor Mario, Falco, Lucas, Toon Link, etc. Otherwise, just ignore the concept of clones, give Dark Pit, Lucina and Daisy their own numbers.

What I don't get is why people classify Echoes and clones in different categories, they are the same thing.

Ok, I'll try to explain this again as I have several times on this forum.

Up until Smash 4, 'clones' were pretty similar but still had several unique differences. The clones in Melee were probably the closest to what Sakurai is now calling 'echo fighters', but even this new terminology has a unique history behind it. This is because the three "extra" characters we got in Smash 4 (Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina) were all originally planned as alternate costumes but Sakurai changed his mind. Now, Dr. Mario was able to escape the designation of "echo fighter" because by making him like he was in Melee, he is now more different from the current Mario than he was back then (with Mario's FLUDD and all).

The best way to think of an 'echo fighter' is an alternate costume that has come into his or her own. So there are not going to be a lot of changes, but a few here and there so that nothing conflicts with their character (like Dark Pit using Pit's Final Smash). Is it less work and less of a difference than clones in the past, even in Melee? Yeah, a little bit. But for the echo fighters we've seen so far they do make sense, for the most part (I actually think Lucina deserves to be more than an echo fighter but oh well).

And thus, could Young Link ever have been an alternate costume of Link (if that were a thing back in the day)? Or Pichu of Pikachu? No, which is why they're not echo fighters today. Dr. Mario could have been an alternate costume but he wasn't, and now his moveset is different from Mario so they're sticking with it. You guys feel me here?

 

[Almand]

But for the echo fighters we've seen so far they do make sense, for the most part (I actually think Lucina deserves to be more than an echo fighter but oh well).

All characters deserve to be more than an Echo Fighter, man. No matter how much it'd make sense, there's no reason why two characters could be almost 100% identical. Except when you have limited time and resources. Like, y'know, most everything. Like has been said on this forum many times, it's not who "deserves" to get a slot, it's what the developers can do before the game launches. We have 6 months left, and this game has been worked on for 3 years max (It's been confirmed SSBU was thought up in mid-2015, but it's unknown when development actually started). Adding everyone in, balancing, adding stages, tweaking existing characters and rethinking veterans, keeping up with fan demand, everything takes money, time, and work.

Echo Fighters, at least how I see them, are a way to pad out the roster without having the developers break their backs to make Daisy/Dark Pit/Lucina their own, unique fighters on top of whoever else they add. Sure, they could've made them unique, but then the game would have to be delayed, or characters would have to be cut. In that case, they couldn't use the "Everyone is Here" tagline, and we might've missed out on someone like Snake, Ryu, Wolf, or Ridley.

All in all, we got what we got. No use complaining about it. Echo Daisy is disappointing, sure, I have plenty of cringy Debbie Downer posts on this forum, but it's probably better to accept it before we go the same route the Waluigi fans did.

 

[FunAtParties]

I have no idea what's happening here, but the reactions seem like a mixed-bag.

I'll never be a fan of clones, but I always thought it could work for Daisy. I haven't seen much gameplay of her echo, but from what I've been made aware, she has Peach's float. This I don't understand, Peach was a character thats unique traits, and high-technical difficulty was primed for a simple clone that Daisy could've obviously fit; why they would carry over these unique traits to 2 characters is beyond me. That being said, I haven't seen any actual evidence of this, so I'll reserve my judgement for later, it doesn't seem to be in the official introduction video.

Anyway, I think a Peach/WFT crossover would've been the ideal last second Daisy. Got some sports/athletics in there with the princess stuff.

 

[DaisyandRosalina]

Ok, I'll try to explain this again as I have several times on this forum.

Up until Smash 4, 'clones' were pretty similar but still had several unique differences. The clones in Melee were probably the closest to what Sakurai is now calling 'echo fighters', but even this new terminology has a unique history behind it. This is because the three "extra" characters we got in Smash 4 (Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina) were all originally planned as alternate costumes but Sakurai changed his mind. Now, Dr. Mario was able to escape the designation of "echo fighter" because by making him like he was in Melee, he is now more different from the current Mario than he was back then (with Mario's FLUDD and all).

The best way to think of an 'echo fighter' is an alternate costume that has come into his or her own. So there are not going to be a lot of changes, but a few here and there so that nothing conflicts with their character (like Dark Pit using Pit's Final Smash). Is it less work and less of a difference than clones in the past, even in Melee? Yeah, a little bit. But for the echo fighters we've seen so far they do make sense, for the most part (I actually think Lucina deserves to be more than an echo fighter but oh well).

And thus, could Young Link ever have been an alternate costume of Link (if that were a thing back in the day)? Or Pichu of Pikachu? No, which is why they're not echo fighters today. Dr. Mario could have been an alternate costume but he wasn't, and now his moveset is different from Mario so they're sticking with it. You guys feel me here?

It's really early to say that however, less than half of their moveset was revelated and the developing team has 5 addotional months to re-work their moveset a little bit and change some attributes. We don't know 100% well what "Echo fighters" are but assuming Sakurai's words so far, they are just clones under a different name.

 

[Deleted member]

All characters deserve to be more than an Echo Fighter, man. No matter how much it'd make sense, there's no reason why two characters could be almost 100% identical. Except when you have limited time and resources.

Well. There are times when a character is a literal clone of another (Dark Pit) so in that sense it doesn't seem far-fetched that they would play very similarly if not the same in a fighting game. And yes, I get your point that potentially all fighters could be unique but they're not and I'm ok with it because it has allowed more characters to get into the game.

All in all, we got what we got. No use complaining about it. Echo Daisy is disappointing, sure, I have plenty of cringy Debbie Downer posts on this forum, but it's probably better to accept it before we go the same route the Waluigi fans did.

I agree, no use complaining about it. I don't play as Peach but I'm going to pick up her playstyle using Daisy, because I like Daisy. And I'm really excited to beat people online with her and make them watch Daisy's victory animations. Lol jk.

Also I agree that Waluigi fans are acting deplorably right now; we should all take the opportunity to be better than that.

I have no idea what's happening here, but the reactions seem like a mixed-bag.

I'll never be a fan of clones, but I always thought it could work for Daisy. I haven't seen much gameplay of her echo, but from what I've been made aware, she has Peach's float. This I don't understand, Peach was a character thats unique traits, and high-technical difficulty was primed for a simple clone that Daisy could've obviously fit; why they would carry over these unique traits to 2 characters is beyond me. That being said, I haven't seen any actual evidence of this, so I'll reserve my judgement for later, it doesn't seem to be in the official introduction video.

Anyway, I think a Peach/WFT crossover would've been the ideal last second Daisy. Got some sports/athletics in there with the princess stuff.

I still think most of Peach's moveset fits Daisy better than it fits Peach, so I'm happy. Also, I've watched the trailers several times and we have not yet seen Daisy float. Her parasol is not "the float".

 

[Almand]

Also, I've watched the trailers several times and we have not yet seen Daisy float. Her parasol is not "the float".

That's Float Nair. The sparkles let you know Peach/Daisy is floating.

I thought that would be the difference, something like no Float for higher speed or something, but nope. And if the still has the Float, what really is there to have fun with, short of a different item for Down B?

One other kinda funny thing, her heels are black here, while they're normally orange. ^_^
Not sure if that's a mistake or lighting issue, but it's there nonetheless. Maybe Daisy is even less developed than we thought!

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe Daisy is even less developed than we thought!

Hmm, good catch there. Even if that's the case, certainly better than using the Daisy-inspired colors of Peach and "pretending" you're Daisy (or using the Mii fighter costume). This way we get her actual model, voice, and personality, even if her moveset isn't really different from Peach at all. *shrugs* Better than what we've ever had before!

 

[Almand]

Hmm, good catch there. Even if that's the case, certainly better than using the Daisy-inspired colors of Peach and "pretending" you're Daisy (or using the Mii fighter costume). This way we get her actual model, voice, and personality, even if her moveset isn't really different from Peach at all. *shrugs* Better than what we've ever had before!

Exactly. I don't think anybody really wanted what we got, per se, but it's good enough. They're assuredly still working on her; she's nowhere near finished. What we've seen, even, may very well be changed, since a clone can get away with that. I'm excited to play her, in any case. ^_^