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The RoM 5 Thread

D

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I wasn't at rom 5 nor did I watch on the stream, but it's generated a lot of **** for what is probably nothing important. That said, we are tied to this one way or another so I'd like to talk about it here.

Specifically, I want to find out what actually happened, and how we can fix it. This isn't a persecution thread. It's merely to see if someone screwed up, if we have any holes in our rule system, and maybe to give Alex our collective opinion on it prior to APEX.

Personally I think a tournament without the top players is a gimped one, and I would not like to see anyone banned.

Can we recapture the events, and then search for holes?

Don't post any rage or w/e other unrelated bull**** about "making the community look bad", we're above that crap in here. This is strictly for us.
 

Lovage

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it's actually really complicated, but clear to see specific people making dumb *** decisions (all 3 are guilty to some extent, but m2k is the most guilty for INSTIGATING pretty much all the splitting)

unknown wanted to forfeit to KK, but VGbootcamp/alukard wasn't letting him.

at that point KK says he stopped caring about the tourny and just wanted to fight m2k. so they played out the set as falco vs. fox and all 3000 people in the stream simultaneously stopped caring about the tournament. unknown's falco ***** KK's fox, then m2k beats KK in losers

m2k and unknown end up splitting the pot, so unknown plays secondaries and gets 6-0'd in the most boring fashion ever, basically erasing this tournament from the history books

KOC was sick u guys are messing up
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
MLG had a policy back in the day where if you were strongly suspected of throwing matches or intentionally forfeiting for no good reason, your tournament winnings would be withheld and you might be banned from future events. I don't think the banning part is necessary for our purposes, but I'd strongly encourage TOs to hold players to the other part. Finals matches are about more than just the players in them, and I have no problem "taking" money (taking in quotes since it's not theirs yet) from players that don't understand that and giving it to the players right behind them that play with fire. If you don't want to play out the whole thing, get out of my tournament. If you want to split, you're perfectly entitled to do that AFTER finals is played out in a way that respects the people that put it together and everyone else that paid money to play.

Also, I can't help but remind people that Standard and Modified DSR are switched in the official rules. From the mouth of THE Dave:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2303398&postcount=9
I mentioned this in another thread back here earlier and was rebuffed, and I suspect that this confusion of what is Standard/Modified contributed at least in a small way to this mess.
 
D

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you also posted this sheridan:

What the players do with their money after the fact is entirely their business. However until they get their money, they need to follow the tournament rules. And I can guaran-****ing-tee you that if people tried to pull this **** at a tournament that I ran (e.g. Genesis 2), these players would not get their money until they played a serious set. Finals matches are about more than just the players in them, and I have no problem taking money from players that don't understand that and giving it to the players right behind them that play with fire.
I'm not sure that I agree with your viewpoint, only for the reason that your right to redirect the winnings money is not directly stated.

if you add to your rule set that this may happen under a set of conditions, i'd have no problem with your stance. but as is, the players would have no reason to think that you have the right to take their winnings away.

we may need to add more to our rule set to clarify the best way to handle these things.
 

Pink Reaper

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I've already posted my thoughts on this. For probably the first time in my life i disagree with Sheridan. You cant force a player to try hard, nor can you penalize them for not doing so. A player who has made it to the third place set has at least earned third place. If they dont want to try hard enough to get first or second then they wont, but you cant deny them what they've earned.
 

unknown522

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Ok. I will give the full breakdown on my phone of what happened. I'm really mad about the boards blowing up because of this. And here is Exactly what I was going to say in the RoM5 thread: starting from WSFs.

The bracket flip happened because Alukard seeded all of canada's 4 players on the same side of the bracket. So I played Europhoria round 2, weon-x vs KK almost happened followed be me vs KK in WSF. So everyone consented to the bracket change and then this is where problems begin:

I played m2k and was tied 2-2 with him. He then wanted to go to FD again for the second time despite winning on it once. DSR was in effect but m2k wouldn't believe me and was coming up with all sorts of excuses and stuff to get the level. Like consenting the the bracket switch and didnt get to play eggm for a free win and various other things (which mostly made no sense). I had already played a Bo5 in doubles with DSR in effect where Weon-x and I couldn't go back to FD vs KK+Cactuar (thanks for helping me out so much cactus). And then cactus was telling m2k that he can't pick FD (actually yelling at him) So we played FD cuz of a combination of being tired of his *****ing about the level and we were being rushed to go. So we played and he won. Then all the controversy with the TOs and people came up saying what m2k did is illegal (true). So they all told him we have to run it back cuz I didn't want to talk to him for endless *****ing again. I told them on the stream what was happening. So Alu told me to sit at the stream and m2k has 5 minutes or he's DQ'd. My region was telling me as well "you travelled all this way to et cheated out of a set with m2k. And after all the **** he did to you at impulse, and HOPE 4, and STYC2". I agreed it and made me mad thinking about those memories. So much **** happened then but I won't mention it now (me as a TO for impulse). So he sat down and *****es some more at me, and I got mad. I actually yelled at him and he finally stopped and played the match after we got rushed. I won the set , but didn't feel good about it for 20 mins. But I got over it and celebrated with my buddies a little.

We then got to WFs after a long wait. An KK and I have a long history of not wanting to play, especially at majors. We had some personal problems a before going into the set and that made me not want to play him more. I then was getting ***** at the start. And figured I lost already. He was playing decent (not great, but good enough). So I just forfeited (this is pretty common anyway). Then the TOs made us play it out and then KK offered to play joke chars/secondaries. Nothing to do with a split at all. Splitting had not even come up at that point. So I won the set in Falco vs Fox.

Then LFs is where I really ****ed up: m2k asked KK to split and then KK told him to ask me. I declined the split at first and KK played m2k. (this is why KK is 100% innocent). Then when I had to play GFs, m2k pretty much begged me to split when we sat down. The *****ing and excuses came up again. At this point I just had enough and agreed to it. If it were a 3-way split, I would've won slightly less money in comparison to placing second and not splitting. I did the math. KK declined the money though so it was only a 2-way split. I felt so ****ty just having to play either set with m2k. The whole tourney experience was ruined for me because of it. And it was not the TOs fault. That's why right after the set I publicly apologized because I felt so bad. I was not trying to get my way out of things, or get around a potential ban at APEX. I actually just felt/feel bad about the whole thing. I apologized to the TOs, the streamers and even players that were still at the tourney. I almost wanted to cry (but obv I wasnt going tk do that). I even offered Alu and GIMR to run back the set and play it for real with no split. I really felt so ****ty.

I didn't have a strong enough mind and let it all get to me. It was as simple as that.

Never have I been in such a frustrating experience. I am tired of m2k's crap and won't let this happen again.

Also M2K, I don't care if you hate me for this, it was not worth it and I am really pissed off that all this happened.

:phone:
 

Juggleguy

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Unknown, would you agree that all of this could have been avoided if Alukard hadn't been an absolutely ****ty TO?

Let's take a look at his ROM 5 resume:

1. Failed to properly advertise the fact that ROM 5 was using a rule that NO OTHER MAJOR TOURNEY IN 2012 has used -- Standard DSR in a best-of-5 set (the proper label for this, as Sheridan mentioned, is a whole separate discussion).

2. Failed to properly seed the Canadians in bracket. Unknown, KK, Weon-X, and Europhoria were all on the same side of bracket, including Unknown vs Europhoria in 2nd round. This was a complete joke and embarrassment.

3. Tried to cover up his mistake by doing a player swap in Winners Semis when it became clear that Unknown vs KK would happen on one side and Mew2King vs Eggm on the other side. Completely unprecedented, and could have been avoided with proper bracket management in the first place.

4. Was reportedly not available during Winners Semis when Unknown wanted TO clarification on the ruleset, resulting in a rushed Game 5 as Ryan described in the post above. Unacceptable TOing job.

5. Made Mew2King and Unknown replay Game 5. You just don't do this unless there are extraordinary circumstances. Both of them went ahead and played out Game 5 under the assumption that FD was a legal counterpick, and you live with that result.

There's no way you can tell me that the splitting would have happened the way it did if it weren't for Alukard putting the players through a god awful ****fest starting with the unprecedented player swap in bracket and ending with one of the worst TOing decisions of all-time.

If I had a pool of 100 blame points for this whole thing, I'd distribute it like this:

85% Alukard
5% Mew2King
5% Unknown
5% the guy who misdefined Standard DSR and Modified DSR in the current Official MBR Ruleset
 
D

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juggleguy, even if you're correct, please do not pin the blame on anyone. we're not here to do that. we are just simply trying to understand what happened without any negativity. please edit your post, and i'll delete mine here.
 

unknown522

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Not trying to put the blame on Alu, but he needs to be more up-to-date with players. He has no idea who people are, and seeded Europhoria with me because he got 4th seed in doubles pools.....so he though he was bad, though it was his partner holding him back.

So Alu assumed Euro would lose to Stric9. But stric got ***** really badly. And i played euro round 2. He gave DJN, hax, and some other NY players a super high seeding so KK, weon and I were on the same side of the backed as well. He also didn't know who weon-x is....

From what I was told, he felt that people would complain to him about seeding if the losers bracked got regional pairings if they're not paired in winners and lose early. He also genuinely felt bad about the poor regional seeding an offered euro his money back (though he didn't take it). Also to make it up to us, he offered that bracket switch under the condition that KK and I made it to WSF to face each other (cuz he thought KK would lose to DJN, and I might lose to cactuar...which was possible). If you guys watch KK vs DJN, we talk about it a bit. He also said he would do it if everyone consented to it. And we all did. (One of the TOs also did the same purposal at impulse losers 1/8, because KK and I had to play and Kage vs Vwins on the other side. Vwins was the only one to decline though to have a free win on kage and not lose to KK, so we didn't do it).

Edit cuz I saw the above post

Edit 2, anyone as a TO or a good enough competitor vs m2k knows how it is dealing with m2k. He seemed to kind of feel bad about it. But My experience with what happened was horrible. I really hope I just do not face him again in super far bracket.

I know there are many more people have split with m2k under similar circumstances. I want to ask PP and zhu about their experiences and see how they dealt with it afterwards.

:phone:
 

Juggleguy

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Umbreon -- in your own words, you wanted to find out what actually happened, how we can fix it, and if anyone screwed up. I'm providing that information. I won't make the same kind of post in public because I understand the negativity wouldn't help there, but in here I really think it's relevant.
 
D

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i appreciate your honesty and your input equally. I'm just worried that some information can still be gained that would sway our viewpoints on the matter. I'd like to avoid judgment completely to make this a positive learning experience, but if it is unavoidable, i'd at least like to delay it until we have one consistent story.
 

Pink Reaper

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1. Failed to properly advertise the fact that ROM 5 was using a rule that NO OTHER MAJOR TOURNEY IN 2012 has used -- Standard DSR in a best-of-5 set (the proper label for this, as Sheridan mentioned, is a whole separate discussion).
I really feel like im harping too much on this one point but you're still making far to big a deal out of this. It's a small change which a TO is allowed to make. It doesnt require it's own thread for some kind of announcement that there will be a minor difference in Counter Picking rules. It's still entirely the players responsibility to read the rules and know them.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I'm not sure that I agree with your viewpoint, only for the reason that your right to redirect the winnings money is not directly stated.

if you add to your rule set that this may happen under a set of conditions, i'd have no problem with your stance. but as is, the players would have no reason to think that you have the right to take their winnings away.

we may need to add more to our rule set to clarify the best way to handle these things.
Yes, you're probably right that we should explicitly state this rule, although I think it can be argued that it falls under the discretion of the TO: the TO could DQ them from the tournament for their actions and award the money to the next placer down. It's not their money yet since the tournament isn't finished. I'd at least make a good try to make this argument but if they made a big enough stink about it, I'd probably have to concede.

I've already posted my thoughts on this. For probably the first time in my life i disagree with Sheridan. You cant force a player to try hard, nor can you penalize them for not doing so. A player who has made it to the third place set has at least earned third place. If they dont want to try hard enough to get first or second then they wont, but you cant deny them what they've earned.
You're absolutely right that we can't truly force them to play hard, but we can (and should, IMO) implement policies to try to mitigate the possibility that they would forfeit/sandbag their matches. The perfect is the enemy of the good. Yes they may have earned third place, and we can't change the fact that they beat people, but the TO is the one putting on the event, he can do whatever he wants within the confines of his state rules that everyone agrees to abide by when they enter the tournament. They don't have the money until the tournament is over, and if you break certain rules, you don't get your money. Again like I said above, I guess it's come to the point where this really needs to be stated explicitly.

Also I'm sorry for not saying hi to you at the KoC tournament, I'm bad with faces and I saw someone that looked like you but I wasn't sure since I hadn't seen you in a while and I didn't want to risk looking like a weirdo :x
 
D

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TO discretion is a powerful tool for the TO to shape the scope of the competition. We should perhaps define it better now that we know it can have a more ambiguous interpretation.
 

Pink Reaper

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But again, what kind of rule can we enact to make it so that players have to try? The TO is putting on the event but for all events the pot split is determined and made public long before the tournament is set. If you say third place gets 10% and then tell the player who placed 3rd that they dont get their money because they didnt try hard enough, it's you who's breaking the agreement. You can make rules against splitting, intentional forfeiting and bracket manipulation but you can never enforce "Play to win"

Also it's fine, there were a lot of people at KoC i wanted to talk to and just sort of didnt have the time. Hell I barely talked to the other SLO people and I only even said hi to like, Dante from all of SB lol. It was a good tourney though, lots of players I havent seen in a long time(though i guess i count as well considering how infrequently i go to stuff now) Also, since we're not on the EC the tournament ran exceedingly well :troll:
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
But again, what kind of rule can we enact to make it so that players have to try? The TO is putting on the event but for all events the pot split is determined and made public long before the tournament is set. If you say third place gets 10% and then tell the player who placed 3rd that they dont get their money because they didnt try hard enough, it's you who's breaking the agreement. You can make rules against splitting, intentional forfeiting and bracket manipulation but you can never enforce "Play to win"
I think the best you can do is to say something to the effect of "if any blah blah is strongly suspected, the TO has the right to DQ you from the tournament thereby forfeiting your pot winnings." Conversation about splitting at the tournament such as what unknown mentioned would be sufficient grounds for example. This will at least make people more conscious of it and give people more reason to maintain belief in the integrity of the tournament.

I think if what unknown posted is true, he probably had completely innocent intentions when he was listening to M2K saying whatever he was saying about rules/splitting what not, and if this rule had been stated clearly to everyone, I think it's likely that it wouldn't have happened. It won't be able to prevent everything, like people agreeing to split the day before in a dark empty hotel room under cover of night, but it's the best we can do. Although I'd be open to any other suggestions that might deal with it better.
 

Juggleguy

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I really feel like im harping too much on this one point but you're still making far to big a deal out of this. It's a small change which a TO is allowed to make. It doesnt require it's own thread for some kind of announcement that there will be a minor difference in Counter Picking rules. It's still entirely the players responsibility to read the rules and know them.
I agree it's the players' responsibilities to read up on the ruleset. I'm making a big deal out of this because I truly believe if Alukard had done just TWO THINGS differently, then none of this splitting nonsense would have happened.

1. separate the Canadians properly in bracket
2. use modified DSR, like every major Melee tourney has in 2012, instead of standard DSR (again, the proper labels for these are for another discussion)

1. I believe the bracket swap messed with Unknown and KK's mindset because it made them aware of how much they play each other and led to a negative/splitting mentality when it came to WFs. This is somewhat apparent to me after reading Ryan's posts in here.
2. I believe the Game 5 rematch completely messed with M2K's mindset for obvious reasons, making HIM more likely to want to split when it came to LFs and GFs. This is pretty much confirmed after reading M2K's posts in this thread these past couple hours.

It's not that I think Alukard is wrong for not advertising the rule change. I think he's wrong for not making an effort to put things in place that minimize the risk of **** happening.
 

Pink Reaper

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I think the best you can do is to say something to the effect of "if any blah blah is strongly suspected, the TO has the right to DQ you from the tournament thereby forfeiting your pot winnings." Conversation about splitting at the tournament such as what unknown mentioned would be sufficient grounds for example. This will at least make people more conscious of it and give people more reason to maintain belief in the integrity of the tournament.
It would have to be something far more in depth than that. Anything that's open to even the slightest level of interpretation would allow for abuse. Because now we're not making rules about how to run a tournament, we're making rules about money. And while the smash community is in general a very friendly and easygoing community, we are not without people who would just as gladly attempt any level of abuse to put themselves ahead.

Put into realistic scenario: What was stopping someone for pushing for PP to get D/Q'd at KoC when he went Marth against mango? It was obvious at the time that he had no intention of trying to win that set and as such broke the rules. Perfect may be the enemy of good, but ambiguity is the enemy of all. This is a rule where good would never be enough, it would have to be perfect.

Edit: @Juggle, Im willing to concede that Alu is at fault here. Poor bracket seeding aside, it was his job to be aware of his tournament goings on and should match 5 of M2K/:201a: brake DSR he should have been aware of it and stopped the match before it happened. Outside of this, however, blame cant really be placed on anyone. We have a lot of "mindset" and "feelings" as reasons for why things happened, but those are much harder to factually prove. Yes Alu seeded poorly and as such caused a poor bracket, but going from that to "The bracket caused KK to feel a certain way and do certain things" is too much of a stretch.
 
D

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i think it's very hard to deny that the seeding was done very poorly. whether or not it is relevant to the situation is debatable, because it seems that they took at least somewhat reasonable measures to resolve the problem. not saying that their approach was graceful but it's...something.
 

Nintendude

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Alukard doesn't even really know the rules to his own tournaments to be honest. Before the tournament started, I went up to Alukard to ask him if wobbling was legal. He told me "I don't know, what do the rules say?" I then said that the rules were MBR rules which didn't mention anything about wobbling. He kept giving me BS answers about reading the rules to see what they say and he only gave me a straight answer when Alex Strife came over and told him to tell me straight up that it was legal.

I think the only reason that the game 5 replay happened was because eggm, who I was standing right next to, was like "wait can m2k really pick FD again?" He pulled out his smartphone and checked the rules, and then went over to Alukard and explained to him how m2k was breaking was making an illegal stage pick. Alukard wouldn't have noticed if somebody didn't actually pull up the rules and have them read him.

Also, Alukard's seeding is a joke. I went to his locals for several years and they are some of the ****test tournaments I've ever been to. A few months ago, unknown came down to a No Johns and he DIDNT SEED UNKNOWN. He seeded him like any random local. Alukard always seeds dated NY players really highly and up and comers (or just people that he hasn't heard of) like they are nobodies. He doesn't know enough about players to take regions into account either.

One more seeding atrocity I want to bring up is the doubles pools. The pools were 4 teams, top-2 make it out. My pool, for some reason, consisted of Eggm/Nando, me/JesiahTEG, Vist/Wenbo, StrongBad/PB&J, and then some nobodies. Some of the other pools were complete jokes yet my pool had 4 highly skilled teams in it. I don't know wtf he was thinking.
 

Marc

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From what I gather the TO'ing was poor, but the ****storm is mostly about the players themselves not properly playing out sets for whatever reason. Openly splitting and throwing sets by playing other characters gives off an air of bracket manipulation and kills all hype. It's kind of gray area if someone would just rather not play or knows he's outclassed, but in this case there actually was a monetary agreement (not to mention M2K is a repeat offender), making the biggest matches a major joke. There is no central governing body to rule on this, but if other TOs want to make the call to ban the players involved, you can't say that's unreasonable. If I were the TO here I simply would have not paid out till we got proper matches, though the TO making several big mistakes himself does complicate things. It's just an overall sour incident.
 

Nintendude

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We really should just add 2 clauses to the MBR ruleset:

Bracket manipulation is banned and players suspected of doing this may be DQ'd at the TO's discretion.
Players may opt for a 1-minute button check prior to the start of the match.

btw, unknown, what was going on with those button checks anyway? Were you just waiting for m2k to say he's ready?
 

Nintendude

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Yeah, I had a feeling that's what was going down. There definitely has to be a 1-minute time limit on that nonsense from now on.
 

unknown522

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All I can tell you guys is that at any point where controversy happened, aside from WFs everyone was always yelling at m2k for some sort of problem at that point. I'm annoyed that I'm actually getting blamed on the boards/Facebook for this. People know m2k's nature and people have split with him in public at majors before. This is not the first time.

But I think people actually just want to blame Canada (or me specifically) because they are just vultures

:phone:
 

Pink Reaper

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I want to bring something up from the public thread

2. Unknown should have not received a second chance at game 5. It was his duty to look up the rules, flag someone down, contest it, BEFORE game 5 was played. NOT AFTER. M2K did a similar thing at Genesis 1 when he lost to Armada in a BO3 set, when it was supposed to be a BO5. Both players played out the set thinking it was a BO3. M2K found out it was supposed to be a BO5 AFTER playing, and demanded to finish the set. I said **** no. That is your fault, (both players faults) for not knowing the rules when previously it was stated it was supposed to be a BO5 in winners semis. There should be zero reason for allowing Unknown to play the match a second time due to his inability (and M2K's) to read and comprehend the rule set.
This is not the proper attitude for a TO. I have been harping on the fact that players need to read the rules and know them, but it is the TOs job to make sure the tournament runs properly. Alu should have been there watching the main stage when Winners Finals happened and should have instantly jumped on the fact that a rule was being broken. In the same way it was DBRs duty to make sure that M2K/Armada played their whole set. Why was no one there to say "no you need to get back on stage and play, it's a Bo5"?

Moreso why do we as a community seem to think that when something goes wrong, rather than attempting to fix it, simply letting it be is the correct way to handle it? If I lie about my pools results, make it into Brackets then play 2 rounds before someone realizes I wasnt even supposed to be there do we just say "Oh well, sucks for the guy that should have made it and anyone that played me"?

It's easy to be complacent when that is the path of least resistance but it's a TOs job to keep the tournament organized. Not knowing the rules is a players own fault, not enforcing the rules is the fault of the TO.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I agree that the TO must bear some responsibility for allowing the situation to come up (just how much though is very case-by-case). If we can prevent it, we should spend effort to do so within reason, even if it wouldn't be our "fault." A good TO is distinguished from a bad one by being prepared for everything that can go wrong at it, and not simply by attempting to emulate what happened at a tournament where everything went smoothly.

I made the final call for the M2K/Armada decision so I'll take the hit for that.
 
D

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all people do is flame me.

=/

ok here's what I can tell so far:

- Alukard messed up with terrible seeding.

- Alukard messed up by using DSR in the rules rather than MDSR.

- Alukard messed up by failing to supervise the tournament sets to watch for errors.

- Alukard messed up by asking the players to replay the match.

- Mew2King messed up by allowing Alukard to change his seeding.

- Mew2King messed up by offering to split.

- Mew2King messed up by picking FD for the 5th match.

- Unknown messed up by not asking a TO to clarify the stage rules.

Of these, Unknown's error is on him for not confirming the stage rules. So far, no rules broken.

Mew2King shafted HIMSELF, but allowed it to happen. Mew2King offered to split, but this was not addressed by the TO in any way. Mew2King picked FD for the final match when he was not allowed to. The players are responsible for knowing the rule set, therefore Mew2King broke one of the rules. Mew2King was reprimanded for "emotional manipulation" or "taking too long checking buttons". To me these are trivial concerns and can be discarded, but that is solely my opinion.

Debatably, MDSR should have been in effect. While Mew2king broke one of the rules and Alukard is technically free to provide the rules, this is a questionable move on his part. Alukard had a particularly poor seeding, of this there is little to no doubt. Alukard asked the players to replay the 5th match, and obviously any form of double jeopardy in competition is a bad idea.

While Alukard did not break any of the rules, I feel that it was his actions that ~most~ directed the negative situation. I am not saying that it is his fault, the situation was clearly minor things from many people that added up. I don't think Unknown had any fault aside from screwing himself, and I don't think Mew2King had much fault, his only error being unfamiliar with admittedly awkward rules.

This event has brought up many questions, of which I think we should begin to answer them here:

1. Is splitting allowed, banned, or left to the discretion of the TO?
2. How much influence is the crowd allowed to impact a performance?
3. Does your entry into the tournament force you to avoid self-sabotage (forfeits, playing specific characters, etc)?

In my opinion:

1. Splitting is okay, but I also understand that it is seen as poor sportsmanship. Therefore, I would like to see it left to the discretion of the TO, but also explicitly addressed by the rule set prior to a tournament.

2. The crowd should have NO influence over the impact of a performance. I think a stream is meant to be enjoyed, but NOT used as a way to leverage power over the players.

3. I don't think any attempts should be made to correct sub-optimal play. If the players get to the finals and decide to play joke characters, I do not think it is reasonable for us to force them to "try".

Please add on to my ideas, or refute them.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I think you just didn't get across your point the right way.

The thing is, I don't think your ideal for the Smash community that you expressed in that thread is necessarily excluded by having an expanding tournament scene. We have always supported the idea that each TO is an independent person who can run whatever sort of tournament he likes, and we just make suggestions for what sort of rules to have for a tournament to be considered competitive by the community.

What you want out of a tournament is still perfectly possible if the TO runs a tournament with those goals in mind, the question is will anyone run one or show up to one. You grew up in a time in the community where that was mostly true even for regional/nationals, but most people now don't remember a time before MLG. Local tournaments are still very informal affairs where "the community" is the people who showed up that day, and I think that experience you want is still mostly available to you. But if we're going to hold to our idea that TOs are independent, then where they go, so goes the community.

We just forget that what people give to us can also be taken away, and that creates a sense of entitlement. We have come to expect the support of a large set of people that take interest in the game but don't go to tournaments.
 
D

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I accept that I'm basically a social dinosaur in any sense. I'm more interested in removing a hole from our rule set that was effectively handed to us.

From a personal standpoint, it's interesting to watch items, and then stages get banned one by one, and then to see non-player interference allowed into a tournament setting. I certainly think that a bad TO is more disruptive to results than say Pokefloats is. All IMO.
 

KirbyKaze

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To quote Oscar, "If you run a joke tourney, the players will treat it like a joke."

edit:

When VGBC forced us to play something out I stopped caring about the tournament completely.
 

unknown522

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Oh god. M2k trying to blame me on FB. Saying that I lied and cheated. Denied that he was trying to bend the rules. Etc

He's not going to listen to me. Someone needs to get him to stop

Edit: everyone knows that problems arise with m2k all the time at tourneys. I can guarantee this crap won't happen at apex whether I am there or not.

It's been a consistent problem.

Edit 2: it seems that every player above a certain skill level seems to understand the situation that has happened (minus like 4 people). Maybe they are just mad right now and will come around.

All the scrubs are complaining basically

Edit 3: should I post my explanation to the public yet? I think it'll be too late soon

Edit 4: umbreon the one statement about me not knowing the rules was not correct. I did know the rules and told him multiple times but he just wouldn't have it. You know how m2k is. He pulls this crap all the time.

He does sound like he legitimately didn't know, but he would not listen to reason when both cactuar and I were telling him. Cactus actually yelled/raised his voice

:phone:
 

KirbyKaze

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I agree with Mow about how dumb it is that the crowd & stream can dictate how the match is played.

I get that I am probably in the minority here but that fact doesn't make it any less detestable to me.

I am strongly considering deconstructing my reputation and reshaping it into something more socially convenient because I notice that Mango (and other members of the community) get no **** for sandbagging or tossing matches whenever they damn please and I would appreciate that luxury.

I wasn't aware we were required to be good actors in addition to skilled players in order to enter tournaments with impunity but the more you know.
 

HyugaRicdeau

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DRZ#283
I tend to believe M2K is just legitimately ******** about certain things but I really have no idea how to parse out the truth from his posts anymore. I think in some respects the community conditioned him to expect certain things and he has not yet come to understand the entitled mentality he has.

KK, I'd prefer to look it as respecting the tournament hosts and entrants. I don't think you owe the stream anything, but TOs and hosts work to make regional/national events for more than just the people winning money. If you don't feel anything for the thousands of streamers (in no way implying that you should), at least do it for the organizers who are trying to make something big. I'm not going to apologize for Mango as I think you're perfectly right to expect the same standards apply to him.

Maybe there's something that I'm missing considering that I've been in very few matches of comparable stress to finals at a regional, but honestly is it so much to ask to play out a set? I'm not sure how to word that without sounding sanctimonious but I assure you that's not my intent.
 

KirbyKaze

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KK, I'd prefer to look it as respecting the tournament hosts and entrants. I don't think you owe the stream anything, but TOs and hosts work to make regional/national events for more than just the people winning money. If you don't feel anything for the thousands of streamers (in no way implying that you should), at least do it for the organizers who are trying to make something big. I'm not going to apologize for Mango as I think you're perfectly right to expect the same standards apply to him.
I understand where you're coming from but hear me out anyway.

First, the double standard the community sets for Mango (and others) versus the standard set for me (and others) is ridiculously good for them and equally constrictive for my current persona and I want in on it. I dislike being berated for doing the same thing that numerous others are doing. I don't feel like naming names but Mango is enough of an example to seriously reconsider the fallout of this event. Mango even openly and explicitly states he's not trying. I wanted to humor the stream but then things beyond my control ensued and now I'm receiving tons of backlash for it.

Second, with how terribly the tournament was run... I don't think appealing to my desire to show respect to Alukard is a good move. Again, to quote Lovage, "If you run a joke tourney, the players will treat it like a joke." Juggleguy has stated very succinctly and effectively why Alukard messed this up so badly. I don't even think he looked at the bracket after Tio made it, nor did he even attempt to seed regions or do any other common courtesies that we do in this community. I understand that ROM has its own flavour, the same way FC has it's own flavour, but uniform bitterness and saltiness are flavours that I'm (perhaps wrongly) lead to believe we're trying to avoid.

And, finally, you've read my thoughts regarding the community on my Facebook. To hell with the community.


edit:

The only person I feel genuinely bad for is Alex Strife.
 

unknown522

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Dudes. Alex strife wants to do a meeting with the MBR and BBR this week. Maybe Thursday. You all should talk to him. It seems important

:phone:
 
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