The 'Revamp A Veteran' Thread! This Week: Discussing YOSHI (new rules inside)

[DefinitelyNotSascha]

Thank goodness we're still discussing Ganondorf, I was afraid I'd be too late with my contribution (I got a bit carried away by playing PM:TTYD).

I only used Wind Waker Ganondorf because he doesn't have detailed armour which is difficult to make look okay in every pose and because I don't have to draw his legs under the robe. (It may also be a it because he's my favourite incarnation of Ganondorf.)
As I mentioned in the alt.-section, I think the default costume should be an original one based on BotW.

As to why I changed his Final Smash, just look at my signature. I think Ganon should be a seperate character entirely, and I will most-likely post a moveset for him in the future as well.

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

It would be good a mix of magic, swords and fighting. Project M has done a good job with that. But you can think of some things. Down Attack on the ground, for example, could pull the enemy in front of you into a black hole into the ground or something like that. The Run Smash could be Ganondorf changing his head to the shape of the Ganon Boar and doing something like giving a halter or horn and giving several cross punches. Proceeding unstoppable on the way. À la juggernaut. The Up Attack, which is that terrible kick, could be him using the sword. The Neutral Special could be him using the magic that appears in Ocarina. Anyway I think that the team that deal with things should be very careful because if it got good moves it would have to be nerf. Which is not cool. The most outstanding features of ganon in the game are a lousy Survivor with a very large force. I think the term would be launching power, would not it? And maybe a decrease in the opponent's throw by their weight. I do not know the technical terms.

 

[Mighty Moose]

One thing i'd love is the attack from the start of the OoT boss fight, where he just slams his fist down into the floor and sends shockwaves out everywhere. And agreed on the more magic please, dude is an OP wizard as much as he is a beefcake.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Thank goodness we're still discussing Ganondorf, I was afraid I'd be too late with my contribution (I got a bit carried away by playing PM:TTYD).

I only used Wind Waker Ganondorf because he doesn't have detailed armour which is difficult to make look okay in every pose and because I don't have to draw his legs under the robe. (It may also be a it because he's my favourite incarnation of Ganondorf.)
As I mentioned in the alt.-section, I think the default costume should be an original one based on BotW.

As to why I changed his Final Smash, just look at my signature. I think Ganon should be a seperate character entirely, and I will most-likely post a moveset for him in the future as well.

Honestly, I wish that Wind Waker Ganondorf was a option indeed. I would like such changes you purposed! Am really looking forward to the next contributions of you!

Also people, please don't forget to nominate characters which you'd like to see next!

Am gonna update the thread later today. Please do your nominations as soon as possible.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The result of the last nominations. Am a day too late again, so next Thursday the thread gets updated again.

: 6 Votes
: 4 Votes
: 3 Votes
: 2 Votes
: 1 Vote

That means that this week we are gonna discuss : SAMUS

 

[DefinitelyNotSascha]

I'm not planning to make a concept sheet for Samus so I'm just going to say some stuff like a normal person.

Personally, I'm not really sure what to do with Samus. She should probably have more projectile-based A-attacks but I can't think of anything tangible. Her Specials are fine and all use iconic upgrades in the Metroid-series.
Another think I could think of is to maybe add some sort of gimmick to switch between beams. Have the Ice Beam stun opponents, the Wave-Beam pass through them and the Plasma Beam do burning damage.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The different beams could easily be custom moves.

I think it would be nice if there were better uses for the morph ball.

 

[Deleted member]

Samus should have the speed booster as her Side special, with the Missiles being her forward Smash.
Alternatively, the morph bombs can be ditched for a new down special that allows her to swap between missile mode and beam mode, with the Morph bombs being her down smash.
Also, Melee counter Up Smash pls.

Nominating Sonic

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honestly I don't think Samus needs any moveset changes, her moveset fits her nicely and while using projectiles more in her moveset represents her game better, her current moveset fits her character better imo. The project m style beam switching would be dope even though it would never happen.

Honestly I just want buffs, she's so slow and she's not even that powerful, she's weirdly floaty and for a character that focuses on projectiles her missiles are so slow. If you can't give us another metroid character just make samus really good lol.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

while using projectiles more in her moveset represents her game better, her current moveset fits her character better imo.

What did you mean by this?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

What did you mean by this?

She's like a genetically enhanced warrior who was in the military, I feel like she'd have training in physical combat and it would make sense for her to use it in a close quarters combat scenario like smash rather than trying to take opponents on from a distance. idk her moveset being mostly projectiles would just be strange to me.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Canon>head canon.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Canon>head canon.

But her literally being a military fighter and essentially a super soldier is canon, she's even shown to do physical attacks in other m and now samus returns and if ZSS is doing physical attacks it makes sense for samus to do the same imo

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Yeah, stuff she's shown doing is fine. I was criticizing your justification of attacks she hasn't shown by inferrring form lore.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Yeah, stuff she's shown doing is fine. I was criticizing your justification of attacks she hasn't shown by inferrring form lore.

inferring that she can punch and kick isn't really a crazy thing to say when she's freaking samus, and Zero Suit Samus is shown doing just that too, the way I see it samus' moveset fits her completely she just needs fixing

 

[Varia31]

She's like a genetically enhanced warrior who was in the military, I feel like she'd have training in physical combat and it would make sense for her to use it in a close quarters combat scenario like smash rather than trying to take opponents on from a distance. idk her moveset being mostly projectiles would just be strange to me.

I see where you're coming from with that. That said, it is actually in Samus' character to prefer fighting at a distance. To quote Samus herself from the Other M art folio: "I prefer to use my Arm Cannon, as it allows me to take out most threats from a safe distance. When circumstances call for it, however, I'm happy to engage the enemy hand-to-hand. The augmented power of my suit lends me extra power in combat-sometimes a well-placed kick is the only way to deal with a grappling Zebesian."
So Samus prefers using her weapons above all else, but she'll engage in melee if she has to or it suits her to use it. She is of course, incredibly strong and quick in hand-to-hand, like, superhumanly so, not to mention she's very skilled in hand-to-hand, but she's more of type that plays keep away if she can. She has insane firepower, so it's only natural for her to use as much of it as she can.

Here are my ideas. Long post ahead.

Spoiler

The Project M style beam switching would be awesome, but yeah, I doubt they would do that. Giving her the different beam types as custom moves was a missed opportunity in Smash 4, so they could do that for her now. I like ideas other have proposed, like giving her the Power Beam and Charge Shot as her neutral A and FSmash, respectively. I wouldn't mind if she dropped a bit faster but had a few more midair jumps to emulate her Space Jump ability. Screw Attack should remain a kill move. I would give her a crawl with her Morph Ball, and the sense move as her dodge rolls rather than slowly Morph Ball rolling away. Also, Samus is known for being very fast and agile in the classic games. So let her have some good running speed! Also, the run animation from Samus Returns should be her new run cycle.

Her new neutral B could be her charging up and firing her Plasma Beam, so it actually fires the green tri-beam of death like the classic Metroid games instead of the blue energy that she has in Smash for whatever reason. You could even give it a brief burn damage effect. I'm perfectly fine with her missiles being her side B, but please let the speed and homing ability of the homing missile be better (not unlike Mii Gunner's missile), and let the Super Missile actually kill like it could in Melee. These things create localized earthquakes in their own games! They should be strong. Her down B can still remain as Morph Ball bombs, and up B as Screw Attack.

Her melee counter from Samus Returns could be her new up Smash. It wouldn't be as much of a counter in the traditional sense as it would be a parry. If it is swinging when an enemy is attacking, it interrupts their attack, powering through and damaging them. Also, you can destroy weaker projectiles with it in that game, so you could do the same here. Forward Smash, I said you could just turn her basic charge shot into that, but alternatively, you could turn it into her Beam Burst ability from Samus Returns. Once again, like the Mii Gunner's FSmash. Down Smash could be the 5-bomb drop technique. The animation would be Samus instantly charging her cannon and then entering Ball mode to drop bombs around herself. They explode on contact but also protect her from people getting close for a moment.

I want her down tilt to be a leg sweep again like it was in Smash 64. Her cannon doesn't make random explosions at the barrel like Smash does. Either the leg sweep, or a quick dash forward with Boost Ball. Forward tilt... honestly I'm perfectly fine with her roundhouse kick. Up tilt could also remain the same. As for her aerials, I would like to see them give her some of the Mii Gunner's moves. Like shooting her beam for her forward aerial, and then reversing it for back air. Neutral Air should be her old Nair from Melee. Down air is fine as it is, though I would make it more like Melee in terms of attack properties again. Up air could be more shooting in order to catch opponents that you have either launched or are trying to get the drop on you (by using short hop to up air). Or just leave it as the drill kick.

For throws, I want to see her use her knee spike for pummeling instead of chopping. Forward throw can stay the same. For back throw, use the animation of her throwing a KiHunter from Other M. That is, she swings the opponent in a circle and then hurls them a considerable distance. The spinning can also damage nearby enemies. Up throw can be her falling onto her back and then piston kicking the enemy straight up like she does with Griptians in Other M. Down Throw would be like the Lethal Strike used against the Griptian. That is, she shoves the opponent's face into the ground, pins them down with her foot, and then shoots them with a charge shot, launching them diagonally forward.

For Final Smash, I wanna see her Power Bomb. Functionally it would be like the Smart Bomb item, but when Samus goes into Ball form to drop it, it has a larger blast radius and spreads much faster than the Smart Bomb, and it racks up damage faster and of course, kills easier. These are mini-nukes we're talking about.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Balance wise, the patches of SSB4 were actually pretty kind to her, and they’ve gone a pretty long way in making her viable. Now, instead of being complete trash, she actually does have plenty of potential when mastered (just not as much as characters like Ryu). That being said, I still feel it necessary to buff her slightly so that Nintendo’s deadliest bounty hunter can finally shine to the fullest. Many changes were influenced by her appearance in Melee, where to me, she was both a very balanced character with appropriate and reasonable strengths and weaknesses, and also pretty fun to fight against. She and Captain Falcon in Melee are generally what I feel all characters should be around, viability-wise. Also, I agree with adding a few projectile normals, but like some others have said, Samus is actually pretty good at adapting and fighting close up when the situation calls for it, unlike some other characters with projectile normals, so I only added a few. (Plus, it was kinda hard to decide which normals should change to projectiles).

Spoiler: My personal changes to Samus' moveset

General

• Some of her animations were altered to better reflect some stuff in the Metroid series (like forward aerial). Also, she now bends down into Morph Ball form to crouch, and can crawl (basically her rolling in Morph Ball form). May not see much use at all, but hey, still cool **** that just seems natural for her. Finally, like in PM, her costumes have glowing visors and lights.
  
  
• Samus is heavier (108 → 110)
  
  
• Some of her attacks have unnecessary hurtbox extensions that are totally invisible to the player (until someone hits you from a range where you clearly shouldn’t have been hit). Say good riddance to those.
  
  
• Her side taunt has a practical effect now; similarly to Ice Mode in Project M, Samus can now alter the properties of Charge Shot with each usage; she swaps between the Wave Beam, Ice Beam, and Plasma.

• Samus now has visible battle damage (a beta element from Brawl; like, think of how Little Mac gets bruises on his face after takin' lots of damage). Her suit will occasionally fizz and sparkle if she takes extreme damage (like, over 150%), as if starting to power down. At even higher percents, her visor will begin to crack slightly.

Ground Attacks

• Neutral attack’s first and second hit now consistently connect at high damages, by an undoing of it’s base knockback increase (8 → 0). They didn’t have the issue of not connecting at low percents in all previous Smash games, so why here does it often slip?
  
  
• Forward tilt has been changed. It’s basically Mii Gunner’s current forward tilt.
  
  
• Down tilt deals 2 more damage (12% → 14%) and increased knockback scaling (48 → 60). Basically, her Brawl down tilt.
  
  
• Dash attack clean has less base knockback (80 → 22), but it has higher knockback scaling (60 → 105), a lower angle (80 → 60) and more damage (10% → 13%). Basically her Melee dash attack. Also, dash attack creates afterimages now and has a flame effect, purely cosmetic changes made so it resembled the Shinespark even more.
  
  
• Samus has a new up smash; It’s basically her Ice Mode up Smash from Project M. I don’t have frame data/knockback properties of it, but it’s just a single hit, which, while dealing less damage than her current up smash if all hits connect (18% → 17%), has a slightly horizontal launch angle and due to being a single hit, is much more consistent in KOing.
  
  
• Down smash has more base knockback (70 → 110), more knockback scaling (46/48 → 50), more damage (10/12% → 16/15%) and it’s angle is different (31 → 120). However, to compensate, it has more ending lag (FAF 45 → 52). This makes it function identically to it’s incarnation in Melee.

Air Attacks

• Samus has a new forward aerial; she fires a bunch of energy shots forwards, kinda like the Mii Gunner’s up air (except horizontally, of course). This also resembles the Beam Burst from Samus Returns.

Grab/throws

• Samus has a slightly faster grab (Frame 16 → 14).
  
  
• The Extended Grapple from NTSC Melee was reintroduced. You know…… that thing where you could triple the length of grab and give it homing properties by doing a pretty damn complicated button combo. I mean, the Extended Grapple never saw much use, if at all, but it was fun for popping off every now and then.
  
  
• Samus has a new forward throw; it is now the Melee Counter from Samus Returns. This is, to my knowledge, her first melee ability, so it’s only natural it would appear in some way. It has more base knockback (60 → 65) and much more knockback scaling (55 → 145) than her old forward throw, now making it a KO throw.

Special moves

• Charge Shot has better priority at full charge. I’ve seen Lucas’ PK Fire cancel out a fully charged Charge Shot. I mean, c’mon.
  
  
• While the Super Missiles have less base knockback (50 → 30), they have more damage (10% → 12%) and knockback scaling (65 → 100). This means they can now potentially KO once the opponent reaches 150%, just like in Melee (what can I say? I love Melee Samus).
  
  
• Bombs now explode as soon as they touch the opponent. Another Melee-based change. The stall is also slightly greater. Just like Brawl.
  
  
• Samus’s Final Smash, Zero Laser, functions the same; however, it is now rainbow colored, and it has been renamed the Hyper Beam (based on the ability of the same name in the Metroid games)

So yep. As a TLDR, I almost completely reverted her to her Melee incarnation, while including a couple of her less sucky elements from Brawl (THE DOWN TILT, MAN!) and slightly altering costemetic details to make her better resemble her appearance in her home series proper. (Also, making her stronger overall. Does anybody else find it sad that ZERO SUIT SAMUS does more damage and knockback than her armored counterpart?



....Oh yeah, remember how I said that her side taunt causes her to swap out neutral special properties? Yeah, I’ll expand further now.

• Ice Beam: Charges to full in about half the time and also shoots faster (Frame 16 → 13), and freezes foes (obviously) if they have accumulated high enough damage. The angle launched is different (40 → 70). However, it only deals half the damage (25 → 12.5), so you’d be pretty hard pressed to kill with it. More for utility than direct kills.
  
  
• Wave Beam: It can pass through objects, and like the Charge Shot in Smash 64, the Wave Beam continues on forever until it hits something. Resembles it’s appearance in Metroid Fusion. It has more range and deals extra shield damage (+2). However, it is much weaker at full charge (Knockback Scaling: 62 → 56), being unable to effectively KO under 130%, and it charges and travels slower.
  
  
• Plasma Beam: As those who have played the 2D Metroids could probably guess, this is the strongest out of all 4 of the beams, dealing higher base knockback (30 → 37) and scaling (62 → 70), making it a deadly-ass move that you do NOT want to deal with. It also acts more like a laser, going through multiple foes at a time rather than stopping at the first one. The trade-off? It charges reeeallly slowly. Takes about 1.5 times the original to charge to full, and it fires slower (Frame 16 → 19).

And that’s just her default Neutral Special. Her custom neutral specials swap out those beams for even more beams, all of which I haven’t decided yet. I might make another post later when I finalize them. (Samus has a LOT of beams, folks.)

And one last thing; in a few of my other posts, I explained my picks for alternate costumes for some characters, and I'll do the same for Samus. Project M really had the right idea for Samus' potential alts, so there's no real point in reinventing the wheel. (She probably has more potential for alts than anybody else)

Spoiler: Her Project M alts, for those who need to be reminded

 

[DefinitelyNotSascha]

I see where you're coming from with that. That said, it is actually in Samus' character to prefer fighting at a distance. To quote from Samus herself from the Other M art folio: "I prefer to use my Arm Cannon, as it allows me to take out most threats from a safe distance. When circumstances call for it, however, I'm happy to engage the enemy hand-to-hand. The augmented power of my suit lends me extra power in combat-sometimes a well-placed kick is the only way to deal with a grappling Zebesian."
So Samus prefers using her weapons above all else, but she'll engage in melee if she has to or it suits her to use it. She is of course, incredibly strong and quick in hand-to-hand, like, superhumanly so, not to mention she's very skilled in hand-to-hand, but she's more of type that plays keep away if she can. She has insane firepower, so it's only natural for her to use as much of it as she can.

Here are my ideas. Long post ahead.

Spoiler

The Project M style beam switching would be awesome, but yeah, I doubt they would do that. Giving her the different beam types as custom moves was a missed opportunity in Smash 4, so they could do that for her now. I like ideas other have proposed, like giving her the Power Beam and Charge Shot as her neutral A and FSmash, respectively. I wouldn't mind if she dropped a bit faster but had a few more midair jumps to emulate her Space Jump ability. Screw Attack should remain a kill move. I would give her a crawl with her Morph Ball, and the sense move as her dodge rolls rather than slowly Morph Ball rolling away. Also, Samus is known for being very fast and agile in the classic games. So let her have some good running speed! Also, the run animation from Samus Returns should be her new run cycle.

Her new neutral B could be her charging up and firing her Plasma Beam, so it actually fires the green tri-beam of death like the classic Metroid games instead of the blue energy that she has in Smash for whatever reason. You could even give it a brief burn damage effect. I'm perfectly fine with her missiles being her side B, but please let the speed and homing ability of the homing missile be better (not unlike Mii Gunner's missile), and let the Super Missile actually kill like it could in Melee. These things create localized earthquakes in their own games! They should be strong. Her down B can still remain as Morph Ball bombs, and up B as Screw Attack.

Her melee counter from Samus Returns could be her new up Smash. It wouldn't be as much of a counter in the traditional sense as it would be a parry. If it is swinging when an enemy is attacking, it interrupts their attack, powering through and damaging them. Also, you can destroy weaker projectiles with it in that game, so you could do the same here. Forward Smash, I said you could just turn her basic charge shot into that, but alternatively, you could turn it into her Beam Burst ability from Samus Returns. Once again, like the Mii Gunner's FSmash. Down Smash could be the 5-bomb drop technique. The animation would be Samus instantly charging her cannon and then entering Ball mode to drop bombs around herself. They explode on contact but also protect her from people getting close for a moment.

I want her down tilt to be a leg sweep again like it was in Smash 64. Her cannon doesn't make random explosions at the barrel like Smash does. Either the leg sweep, or a quick dash forward with Boost Ball. Forward tilt... honestly I'm perfectly fine with her roundhouse kick. Up tilt could also remain the same. As for her aerials, I would like to see them give her some of the Mii Gunner's moves. Like shooting her beam for her forward aerial, and then reversing it for back air. Neutral Air should be her old Nair from Melee. Down air is fine as it is, though I would make it more like Melee in terms of attack properties again. Up air could be more shooting in order to catch opponents that you have either launched or are trying to get the drop on you (by using short hop to up air). Or just leave it as the drill kick.

For throws, I want to see her use her knee spike for pummeling instead of chopping. Forward throw can stay the same. For back throw, use the animation of her throwing a KiHunter from Other M. That is, she swings the opponent in a circle and then hurls them a considerable distance. The spinning can also damage nearby enemies. Up throw can be her falling onto her back and then piston kicking the enemy straight up like she does with Griptians in Other M. Down Throw would be like the Lethal Strike used against the enemy. That is, she throws the opponent's face into the ground, pins them down with her foot, and then shoots them with a charge shot, launching them diagonally forward.

For Final Smash, I wanna see her Power Bomb. Functionally it would be like the Smart Bomb item, but when Samus goes into Ball form to drop it, it has a larger blast radius and spreads much faster than the Smart Bomb, and it racks up damage faster and of course, kills easier. These are mini-nukes we're talking about.

This is really well thought out, I couldn't have come up with anything better.
I was going to suggest just changing her Final Smash to look like the Beam Burst from Samus Returns but keeping it functionally the same, but the Power Bomb is even better.
The bomb drop- and melee counter-smash attacks are a perfect fit as well. Of course the Up-Smash would then have to be an attack with low startup lag. That way you could still sort of use it to surprise opponents.

 

[Varia31]

Y'know I forgot to talk about costumes myself. I would prefer her default costume to be her Samus Returns Varia Suit.

Spoiler

As for her other outfits, it would be cool if her suit actually changed. I know it would be a lot of extra work for the devs to make this many models, but hey. Now, for some suits that are legitimately palette swaps in the source material, then it would stay as just a palette swap. For instance, pink Samus is basically just the NES Varia Suit missile mode colors, so that stays the same. Green Samus is completely made up for the sake of green team. That stays the same. Phazon Suit was just a black palette swap of the suit in Prime, so you could have that here in place of the Dark Samus palette she has in Sm4sh. Now, here are the actual suits that would change. Let's start with the Gravity Suit.
"But... the Gravity Suit is just a palette swap, too!"
Ohhhhh no. Not anymore it isn't. I mean. LOOK AT THIS BEAUTY.

Spoiler

Next up we have the Light Suit and the Dark Suit.

And finally, the good ol' Fusion Suit!

You could even use the Samus Returns variation of the Fusion Suit. It retains bigger shoulders so that it more closely matches Samus' collisions (sorry there isn't a bigger picture of this).

Does anybody else find it sad that ZERO SUIT SAMUS does more damage and knockback than her armored counterpart?

I do find it sad. Frankly it irritates me. Like... okay, I do like using ZSS from time to time, but the fact that she is leagues better than Power Suit Samus is quite frankly absurd. I mean, she's still superhuman even without her armor (the canon Zero Mission Manga proves this), but her suit, of course, augments her abilities further! And ironically, that includes her speed and reflexes. She actually is not faster without the suit, but I can understand doing that for Smash Bros balancing purposes. When you actually do play as ZSS in Zero Mission and Other M, she doesn't jump as high, and she doesn't run any faster. In fact, in Zero Mission, her run speed and jump height are exactly the same as when she starts the game in the basic armor. And she has to rely on STEALTH to stay alive. It's when you get your suit back in that game that you get to literally STEAMROLL everything in your way.

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

Although it does not seem to me to be a popular opinion, I would much rather she did not even have a side Special. Maybe they should take the others out. Leaving only the Netral Special. Pressing the button fires a shot. Press and hold loads. Releasing the button shoots the level of charge it was. At most you 'lock' the load as you roll.
This way, you can move around the opponent while shooting at him like in classic games. With no risk of having trouble with controls, firing missiles when they should not, or simply not being able to fire consecutive rounds of blasts and loading with ease. To use missiles you would only use the Project M. swap.
And if Samus were weaker by lack of movement, it could even be used to make her stronger.
That's the big change I'd like to see in her. Despite wanting her to be the same character again with ZZS, and to be able to use some smashs with shots.

 

[Crystanium]

Jab 1
By itself, even with a Sakurai angle, this jab provides a decent neutral and can lead into other attacks, such as dash, s-tilt, d-tilt, f-smash, or grab. It can also be buffered to perform jab canceling. Still, it'd be nice if the Sakurai angle was non-existent, rather than waiting around 30% or higher to keep Samus safe. A jab should be able to connect from one to the next. It renders jab 2 meaningless, since the whole point of jab 2 is to knock the opponent away.

Dash
Dash attack is actually pretty good in Sm4sh and its FAF is lower. What would be a nice addition to this attack is some kind of shock wave so that this mimics Samus' speed booster as seen in Metroid: Other M. The model of the character is based after this game, so why not add that extra feature? It would allow Samus to do early dash attacks safely, since there would be a distance between her and her opponent. It could be compared to Ness' dash attack, where sparkly features are in front of him.

U-tilt
In SSBM, u-tilt had a FAF of 35 frames. In Sm4sh it has 40 frames. U-tilt needs to return to 35 frames. Ideally, I'd prefer 30 frames. Alternatively, u-tilt could be given a different design based on Melee Counter. Instead of being active at frames 15-18, it could be active at frames 9-12.

S-tilt
In SSBM, s-tilt had a FAF of 30 frames. In Sm4sh it has 34 frames. S-tilt needs to return to 30 frames. This attack is already good because it keeps the opponent at a distance. The foot is a tipper, which kills at high percents.

D-tilt
In SSBB, d-tilt was able to kill. This was removed in Sm4sh. FAF is at frame 40, though in Melee it's at frame 39. It would be nice if this attack was reduced at least to 35 for FAF.

U-smash
The FAF for this attack is 57 frames, which isn't bad, considering SSBM had 59 frames total, but could be reduced to 58 frames. Still, this smash attack is only good against characters who are about Mario's height, but even against Mario, it doesn't have a guaranteed hit. The hitbox doesn't cover enough and characters overhead will hardly get hit.

The only two reasons why this attack connects is because it's either hitting a large character, or the attack isn't used often and surprises the opponent. Nevertheless, this attack doesn't have an auto-link angle. Samus needs to start low in the front and this attack should guarantee the consecutive hits using an auto-link angle. It's a kill move that doesn't get used often.

Since Metroid: Samus Returns was released, another option for u-smash could be beam burst. I'm not going to say the beam should cover the distance it does in MSR, but it could at least be comparable to Mii Gunner's u-air while Samus is grounded. This would allow Samus to also safely hit aerial opponents who have disjointed hitboxes, such as Link, Toon Link, or the FE characters in general.

S-smash
Arm cannons should be somewhat longer than the arm itself. In the Metroid Prime trilogy, it appears the arm cannon was at least somewhat longer than Samus arm. This image is a good example. There are two problems with this smash attack in its current state. The first problem is that it still whiffs at times, especially against shorter characters. In SSBM, side smash had two blades come out. I don't think this is necessary.

What could happen instead is that as Samus thrusts her arm cannon forward, streams of flames from the muzzle surround the arm cannon like this. The flames could expand a little more like this, however. When side smash reaches its peak, the flames within the arm cannon could then expel like so in Sm4sh. This would give Samus' side smash a larger hitbox in both width and length.

D-smash
Did you know d-smash in SSBM could kill? I wonder why they took that away from Samus. Well, I think Mii Gunner has a better d-smash. The problem with his/her d-smash is that it can whiff and it seems to be possible to avoid the final hit, even if the initial hit connects. If this attack could be given to Samus with the problems fixed, Samus would have her potential kill move again, and it would resemble her d-tilt more closely.

Screw attack
My biggest issue with this attack is that it doesn't always keep the opponent caught into the attack. Furthermore, when has Samus ever been left open after using her screw attack? If she's going to end up in a helpless animation, then I think she should do as my brother suggests (which is canonical) and have the screw attack continue to do its attack animation from start to finish. What I think could be cool is if Samus could use screw attack and go at any direction. In the battle against SA-X (a perfect copy of Samus), it's capable of attacking like a circular saw.

Side special
Missiles and super missiles need to be reworked to behave more like an item, rather than a projectile. In other words, retain its projectile attributes, but make it like an item so that when it connects with something like Link's bombs, it doesn't blow up without blowing up Link's bombs. I'm tired of these specials being stopped with something like bombs or with something like a jab or some disjointed hitbox. Also, give Samus the ability to perform short hop homing missile cancel (SHHMC), as well as fire two super missiles (you can only fire one in Sm4sh). Also, make super missiles kill again like they did in SSBM.

Down special
All I want for this is Samus' bombs to detonate like a proximity bomb. It can retain its function as is, but make it so that anyone who touches it gets injured. Samus would be able to create a wall.

Grab
Grab needs to be faster. There's no reason Samus needs to swing her arm forward in order to use this. And why can't she just deactivate it after using it and missing? It should be as simple as turning off a flashlight.

Back throw
It seems like everyone, including characters who either lack physical strength, or never demonstrated superhuman strength, have a kill throw. Give Samus one kill throw at least, please. Back throw seems like it'd be a good one.

 

[Varia31]

I just had another idea for Samus’ neutral B. What if, instead of being a chargeable attack, it just switched your beam mode? Functionally it would work just like Shulk’s Monado Art switching, just that you would see the little Beam icons from the Metroid Prime series (possibly with the name underneath). Once you settle on one, the glowing lights on her cannon will change color just like in Samus Returns (yellow = Power Beam, purple = Wave Beam, green or red = Plasma Beam, etc). Before, I mentioned replacing her jab with basic shots like how Mega Man fires his buster shots, and her FSmash would be a charge shot just like his, too. Well, same thing here, except that the beam will now change depending on what you selected. The different beams have varying properties, with their firing and charge rates getting slower to balance out how much stronger they get. Wave Beam would cause electric damage and could stun like ZSS’s pistol. Plasma Beam does the most damage and knock back, and causes burn damage and pierces through multiple enemies, but takes the longest to charge and has the slowest rate of fire. Something like that.

Grab
Grab needs to be faster. There's no reason Samus needs to swing her arm forward in order to use this. And why can't she just deactivate it after using it and missing? It should be as simple as turning off a flashlight.

Back throw
It seems like everyone, including characters who either lack physical strength, or never demonstrated superhuman strength, have a kill throw. Give Samus one kill throw at least, please. Back throw seems like it'd be a good one.

What’s funny is that’s exactly how it’s supposed to work in the games. When you fire the Grapple Beam it just shoots out like any other beam. And when it reaches its maximum length and it hasn’t grabbed anything, it just stops. It’s just gone. Like you said, it turns off like a flashlight.

As for the throw, yeah. That irks me a bit. Samus has proven that she is vastly superhuman, yet she doesn’t get a kill throw. Back throw would be perfect. I remember when her back throw could outright kill in Smash 64. Of course, throws were blatantly more powerful in general in that game, but still..

 

[Crystanium]

I just had another idea for Samus’ neutral B. What if, instead of being a chargeable attack, it just switched your beam mode? Functionally it would work just like Shulk’s Monado Art switching, just that you would see the little Beam icons from the Metroid Prime series (possibly with the name underneath). Once you settle on one, the glowing lights on her cannon will change color just like in Samus Returns (yellow = Power Beam, purple = Wave Beam, green or red = Plasma Beam, etc). Before, I mentioned replacing her jab with basic shots like how Mega Man fires his buster shots, and her FSmash would be a charge shot just like his, too. Well, same thing here, except that the beam will now change depending on what you selected. The different beams have varying properties, with their firing and charge rates getting slower to balance out how much stronger they get. Wave Beam would cause electric damage and could stun like ZSS’s pistol. Plasma Beam does the most damage and knock back, and causes burn damage and pierces through multiple enemies, but takes the longest to charge and has the slowest rate of fire. Something like that.

I'm not particularly fond with replacing Samus' jab or f-smash with a projectile like Mega Man's. Mega Man's neutral A, f-tilt, and neutral aerial are all the same. I find this to be lazy. Each attack should be unique in their own way. In one of the Make Your Move threads, I created an improved version of Samus, but instead of working like Shulk's Monado Art, I had it function by transitioning from one beam to the next when the neutral special was fully charged. It would start off as Charge Shot, and if it was fully charged and released, it would switch to the wave, ice, and plasma before returning back to Charge Shot.

Charge Shot: Deals 26% damage normally when fully charged, then 25% once refreshed. (I forgot why this is so.) This neutral special is Samus' kill move.

Wave Shot: Deals 22% damage when fully charged. This neutral special stuns opponents. It has a wavy pattern when fired and can hit the opponent's hand if he/she is hanging on the ledge and has run out of invincibility frames. It's not necessarily a kill move, although circumstances can allow for it to kill.

Ice Shot: Deals 15% damage when fully charged. This can freeze opponents, but only when partially or fully charged. As the opponent takes more damage, the freeze effect will begin to briefly freeze the opponent when uncharged, and keep the opponent frozen for a longer duration when partially or fully charged. Although this neutral special isn't a kill move, because the opponent is launched in an 80° angle if hit, Ice Shot could potentially kill, provided the opponent is in the air during this time. Ice Shot is the slowest neutral special, but it's possible to get two partially charged neutral specials on the stage at the same time.

Plasma Shot: Deals 30% damage when fully charged. This neutral special dwindles the opponent's shield at an accelerated rate. As one individual pointed out, breaking a shield with Plasma Shot could lead to killing the opponent with a full Charge Shot, since Plasma Shot isn't a kill move.

Something tells me if this kind of thing happened, most Samus mains would stick with Plasma Shot. Of course, since neutral special would be used a lot, this could lead to staling Charge Shot if the strategy was to break the opponent's shield to set up a kill.

 

[Varia31]

I'm not particularly fond with replacing Samus' jab or f-smash with a projectile like Mega Man's. Mega Man's neutral A, f-tilt, and neutral aerial are all the same. I find this to be lazy. Each attack should be unique in their own way. In one of the Make Your Move threads, I created an improved version of Samus, but instead of working like Shulk's Monado Art, I had it function by transitioning from one beam to the next when the neutral special was fully charged. It would start off as Charge Shot, and if it was fully charged and released, it would switch to the wave, ice, and plasma before returning back to Charge Shot.

Charge Shot: Deals 26% damage normally when fully charged, then 25% once refreshed. (I forgot why this is so.) This neutral special is Samus' kill move.

Wave Shot: Deals 22% damage when fully charged. This neutral special stuns opponents. It has a wavy pattern when fired and can hit the opponent's hand if he/she is hanging on the ledge and has run out of invincibility frames. It's not necessarily a kill move, although circumstances can allow for it to kill.

Ice Shot: Deals 15% damage when fully charged. This can freeze opponents, but only when partially or fully charged. As the opponent takes more damage, the freeze effect will begin to briefly freeze the opponent when uncharged, and keep the opponent frozen for a longer duration when partially or fully charged. Although this neutral special isn't a kill move, because the opponent is launched in an 80° angle if hit, Ice Shot could potentially kill, provided the opponent is in the air during this time. Ice Shot is the slowest neutral special, but it's possible to get two partially charged neutral specials on the stage at the same time.

Plasma Shot: Deals 30% damage when fully charged. This neutral special dwindles the opponent's shield at an accelerated rate. As one individual pointed out, breaking a shield with Plasma Shot could lead to killing the opponent with a full Charge Shot, since Plasma Shot isn't a kill move.

Something tells me if this kind of thing happened, most Samus mains would stick with Plasma Shot. Of course, since neutral special would be used a lot, this could lead to staling Charge Shot if the strategy was to break the opponent's shield to set up a kill.

Well, it was just a thought. My main reasoning being that her focusing on projectiles more would make her more faithful to her games. I thought it worked pretty well for Mega Man since that is literally how his shots work in his games (though they could have given him a better f-tilt), so I thought the same could be done for Samus. Ah, well.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, it was just a thought. My main reasoning being that her focusing on projectiles more would make her more faithful to her games. I thought it worked pretty well for Mega Man since that is literally how his shots work in his games (though they could have given him a better f-tilt), so I thought the same could be done for Samus. Ah, well.

I know. There was another idea someone mentioned to me before, but I don't remember what it was. I thought it was better than my beam idea.

 

[Deleted member]

In general, I just want Samus to be more true to her source material. Give her a powerful Melee Counter-like attack. Give her Beam Swaps using her side taunt. Allow her to charge her beam in the air. Let her roll around in Morph Ball. Give her actual alternate costumes, not just pallet swaps.

Basically, just give us Project M Samus because holy shizballs I love Samus in that.

 

[Crystanium]

Here are a couple more ideas for improving and altering Samus.

Neutral B
When fully charged, Charge Shot moves fast. I'd like it if uncharged versions were also fast. Not as fast as a full charge, but faster than they are now. I'm with @Mewtwo that it'd be nice if Samus could charge in the air as well. Another idea would be angling the shot diagonally up or down. I was thinking about suggesting the charge to be 90 frames, rather than 120 frames (2.08 s), but something tells me with these buffs, Samus could end up being overkill.

Forward throw
I really like Mewtwo's f-throw. It looks cool, although I'd prefer something other than uncharged shadow balls. Anyway, being faithful to canon, it'd be cool if Samus' forward throw worked like Mewtwo's, but Beam Burst was used. Or it could just be u-throw. Either one would be fine by me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I have been thinking, and it's kinda ironic to consider that Samus' moveset after Returns is way more fitting her than usual. Before Metroid Other M, Samus never went physical on her enemies. Her Prime and elder 2D games all where focussed alone on shooting. However, there's indeed still a lot they can do to make Samus feel more like herself.

Her design has suffered a lot ever since Brawl. She only was ever good in Melee. And a lot had to do with her Missiles and quite powerful aerials. They can easily go back to that, as seen in the buffed variations of previous Low / Bottom Tiers as Mario, C.Falcon, Ness, Yoshi, Sheik and Luigi (all where significantly worse in Brawl than Melee- then buffed again in Smash 4). So unless they are unwilling to change that, they can still draw inspiration from her Melee self.

Next indeed, Charge Shot. With even Shadow Ball and Aura Sphere being able to charge in midair, it's weird how Samus cannot do the same. Besides that, I want her uncharged Beam shots to function more like in Metroid. If Mega Man can have his pebbles, Samus should have this at least. Make a uncharged shot do roughly 4~5% damage and give it enough hitstun. Also, it should naturally combo from her other moves and come out a little faster for quick damaging follow ups ended with a hard blast of laser energy in the face of her opponents.

I like the idea of switching beams, but what I rather have is Side B being a switch between Missiles and Beam function. Neutral B would then either be Charge Shot or a Missile. And Super Missiles can be shot by charging up. It's a small trade off, but it could work. Just throwing out ideas here, it might be seriously flawed as well. It's good to give Samus options, but she's quite reliant on her projectiles already. She doesn't need anything to slow her zoning down even further.

Screw Attack definitely needs to be stronger however. Smash 4 did a good job, but it still feels underwhelming. It wouldn't hurt if it helped recover Samus better either, or make it a two-time jump like the Screw Attack item.

U Smash can be the Melee Counter, and be a good anti aerial, and a move that comes out relatively fast. Or make it her F Tilt or F Smash. It can work wonderfully for any of those moves. I prefer to keep the current U Tilt and D Tilt however, they've always been good for Samus' overall kit, and are satisfying to land as well.

F Air can use some more range, or even make her shoot a Missile or something... Lots of ranged F Tilts nowadays. So there's options and I think Samus needs to have options to zone in the air as well outside of Z Air. Speaking of the Grapple Beam, her throws should also be more powerful I feel.

Dash Attack could have the visuals of it being the Speed Booster, and could help her gain a little momentum with it even. Or make it able to extend it's hitbox a little by holding A or the control stick. It shouldn't change all too much however, the animation could be the same, but with Speed Booster as an added side effect. Could even become a KO move, cause why not?

Her rolls need to be faster indeed, as well as her Down B. Would help her tremendously.

Also, I keep saying it, but for this thread to have purpose... PLEASE NOMINATE! I can't continue a thread without having a character to discuss. So please, nominate. If you never voted before, I'll even give you a vote for each contribution on a character so far. Which could be 4 votes.

I myself nominate

 

[Crystanium]

Sorry. I forgot to nominate. I'm going to have to go with , assuming he returns.

 

[Varia31]

Seconded on nominating Mewtwo!

 

[Diddy Kong]

Counted votes again, here's the updated list:

:4 Votes
: 3 Votes
: 2 Votes
: 1 Vote

Don't let your favorite character lag behind, contribute and nominate whenever you can!

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

I nominate Kirby. I have an idea for him.

 

[Crystanium]

I nominate Kirby. I have an idea for him.

In the meantime, could you contribute to the current revamp of the week?

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

In the meantime, could you contribute to the current revamp of the week?

Yes. By the way, I answered upstairs. No one received?
I see you played with her as your main in all games. Impressive! What dedication and affection, by the way.
Repeating as I said: What I most want would be the removal of the Side Special so we can use the Neutral B shot in the same way as in the main series. Shooting with multiple consecutive shots and loading easily by pressing the button. Using the Taunt, even in the air, would make the switch between shooting, missiles and super missiles.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes. By the way, I answered upstairs. No one received?
I see you played with her as your main in all games. Impressive! What dedication and affection, by the way.
Repeating as I said: What I most want would be the removal of the Side Special so we can use the Neutral B shot in the same way as in the main series. Shooting with multiple consecutive shots and loading easily by pressing the button. Using the Taunt, even in the air, would make the switch between shooting, missiles and super missiles.

My apologies. I didn't see your post.

During the Nintendo 64 era, they never made a Metroid game. I used Samus in SSB64 during that time and hoped they'd make another Metroid game. When SSBM came out, I went with Samus again. She's my favorite fictional character. During SSBB, I began to have second thoughts on using Samus because she wasn't so good, but my brother encouraged me to continue using her, so I did. Then I felt the same way in Sm4sh, but she was one of the few characters who I enjoyed play as. Whenever I'd try anyone else, it just didn't feel the same. Samus will always be my main. She would have been my main in Project M if I ever modded my consoles.

What would side special be replaced with? As for taunts, I thought about replacing taunts for Samus to use Aeion abilities, but people didn't like the idea. Recently, I thought that perhaps in order to retain taunts, the player could hold down on the d-pad to select an Aeion ability while just tapping it to taunt. It was possible to go from Samus to ZSS in SSBB by rapidly pressing up and down on the d-pad. There was a trick to that, actually. The game didn't care about the input, so you could hold down on the left or right side of the d-pad and wiggle it up and down to do a quick transformation.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Oh yeah, I forgot to vote.

I choose Dark Pit. I don't have any idea what balance changes I'd do for him (so no long changelist this time), but I still have some ideas for him.

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

I really hope that in this next version of the game Samus is a lot better. All I want is to be able to shoot normally with her while I go around the enemy like you do in the Metroid series games.

 

[Deleted member]

She neeeeeeeeeeeeds to have her Samus Returns appearance!! Sakurai HEAR ME

 

[TCT~Phantom]

The biggest change I would make to Samus is a mobility buff. I feel her toolkit is fine in general (although bombs could be not as crap), but she just is too sluggish. I would make her around Pit's run speed and fall speed. A minor mobility buff would go a long way to making her better.

 

[Crystanium]

I just thought of an idea from the image below.

What if Samus could stick to walls? What if she entered morph ball animation when next to a wall and used the spider ball?