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The relevancy of fan demand

Mogisthelioma

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Fan demand doesn't seem like a compelling argument to put a character in Smash or not. I'm sure if fan demand was more relevant then the roster would be different.

To begin, I'm not making this thread to be salty about anything, it's just speculation if fan demand is as important as Sakurai says it is.

My biggest concern is Smash 4. Since Ridley was featured in the Melee reveal trailer but not in the game, everyone (or most people) wanted him in the game. But even in Smash 4, with a final size of 58 fighters, still did not have him in the game. I know Sakurai said that he thought Ridley was too big, but Ultimate is proof that downsizing him wasn't an issue. Thi goes to show that despite the fan demand, Sakurai still put his own judgement over it.

(I don't want to say this applies to K. Rool, but it almost does. There simply wasn't a justifying reason not to have him in at the time).

I'm really only going to use Ridley as an example. Does anyone else have an issue with the way fan demand is calculated into a character's chances?
 

StormC

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My biggest concern is Smash 4. Since Ridley was featured in the Melee reveal trailer but not in the game, everyone (or most people) wanted him in the game. But even in Smash 4, with a final size of 58 fighters, still did not have him in the game. I know Sakurai said that he thought Ridley was too big, but Ultimate is proof that downsizing him wasn't an issue. Thi goes to show that despite the fan demand, Sakurai still put his own judgement over it.
The thing with Ridley is the outcry changed his mind. Fans still wanting the character despite being a stage hazard and despite the director saying he was too big was the catalyst to adding him. He discusses this in the Treehouse gameplay demonstration. So fan demand is what saved Ridley, not Sakurai suddenly compromising his own game design ideals.
 

Mogisthelioma

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The thing with Ridley is the outcry changed his mind. Fans still wanting the character despite being a stage hazard and despite the director saying he was too big was the catalyst to adding him. He discusses this in the Treehouse gameplay demonstration. So fan demand is what saved Ridley, not Sakurai suddenly compromising his own game design ideals.
I guess that's fair. But it certainly took too long to add him.
And as I said, Ridley isn't the only example. This applies to characters that people have wanted for a long time.
 

Luigifan18

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Fan demand didn't save Bomberman from ending up as an Assist Trophy...
 

StormC

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I think for fan demand Sakurai weighs the pros and cons of how they fit his vision for Smash. Characters like :ultmegaman::ultridley::ultkrool: fit his general vision for what a Smash character should be like (important, iconic characters with a kinetic gameplay style that makes sense for them). What's interesting is that a character like Geno doesn't really fit these parameters, but is a character Sakurai has mentioned wanting anyway. I imagine concepts of fan demand and "deserving" will be completely altered if a character like Geno gets in. They already are with K. Rool.
 

Mariomaniac45213

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Fan demand didn't save Bomberman from ending up as an Assist Trophy...
Or Waluigi, or Krystal...But hey we did get K.Rool, Chrom, Dark Samus, Ridley, and Simon! Not to say fan demand won't continue for the rest of the newcomers/echoes but we don't know. For all we know the next few newcomers could be Elma, Alm/Celica, Captain Toad, Bandana Dee, Incineroar, Isabelle. Yeah all these characters have huge followings but also could be chosen as "promotional picks" as well since all these characters were prominent in 2015/2016. Xenoblade Chronicles X, Shadows of Valentia, Treasure Tracker, Kirby & the Rainbow Curse, Sun/Moon, Amiibo Festival/Happy Home Designer. We don't know we just have to wait and see. Though I do feel we are getting fan favorites from the ballot this time. So I think Geno, Skull Kid, Dixie Kong (who could also be a "promo" character due to Tropical Freeze), Issac, etc. have slightly better shots.
 

staindgrey

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I know Sakurai said that he thought Ridley was too big, but Ultimate is proof that downsizing him wasn't an issue.
I'd actually argue it's pretty clearly an issue. Ridley looks weird with his current proportions.

I'm glad he's in, but I think the final character model actually speaks volumes to Sakurai's reluctance. Ridley was included in spite of his odd size due to fan demand.
 

Putuk

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Putting a long-standing character that people love in is probably better than pushing new characters that people might not even like anymore once the dust settles.

This series is about fanservice, so one of the devs priorities should be to serve the fans (and make a fun game, obviously).

I'm quite happy with the direction Ultimate is heading.
 

SmashBro99

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I'd actually argue it's pretty clearly an issue. Ridley looks weird with his current proportions.

I'm glad he's in, but I think the final character model actually speaks volumes to Sakurai's reluctance. Ridley was included in spite of his odd size due to fan demand.
I agree, I think mini Ridley is lame but enough people wanted it that he gave in even after stating he was too big.

If only we could have gotten a mini Moon too..
 

Quillion

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Again, the problem was that Ridley is hard to downsize without looking awkward, not that he can't be downsized.
 

Frizz

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Personally, I think fan demand should play a little role when it comes to picking newcomers in general, but in an installment like Ultimate, whose purpose is most likely to feel like the "Ultimate" or as a "Special" Smash game, fan demand is important.
 

SonicMario

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This is kind of a case-by-case basis for each character and game

Smash 64: Most of the characters were obvious choices for a Nintendo video game at the time. Since all the franchises were featured in the SNES era for the sole exception of Pokemon which was just a HUGE success on the Game boy and media in general at the time. The only character that might arguably reach "demand" levels in Smash 64 was funnily enough Jigglypuff for being one of the most popular pokemon in Japan at the time. Albeit it also helped that Jigglypuff could be cloned off Kirby.

Melee: Many of the newcomers in Melee are characters that were considered for Smash 64 or naturally considered the next steps for inclusion for already represented series. Though Melee was also the first instance of clones being added even if obviously they were never asked for and even cutting corners for an incredibly requested character :ganondorfmelee: into a heavier, slower version of another character

Brawl: Brawl in turn also had characters that were considered for Melee. Meta Knight and Dedede were left out of Melee mostly for concerns of Sakurai overrepping his own series. But when they both got some high demand for Brawl he put them in at last. Wario, Diddy Kong, and Olimar all probably had followings after Melee as well.

But of course there's still the 3rd party characters to consider when covering what Brawl did for fans. Snake was mainly a Kojima request. But Sonic on the other hand? In the times before 3rd party characters were considered not very probable. Sonic was probably the one most brought up should the "impossible" happen. "Wouldn't it be cool to have Mario fight Sonic in Smash?" I'm very willing to bet was something brought up if there were any discussions about 3rd parties before we knew it would ever happen. Then there was that EGM April fools joke of Sonic and Tails in Melee, and then Snake's surprise announcement for Brawl took the internet by storm. And that quickly rose up the people who thought it would be cool for Sonic to get in to Smash and turn it into "This can actually happen!". Sakurai even did have Sonic in Brawl's project plan that was initially denied by Sega but they changed their mind just fast enough for Nintendo and Sakurai to simply delay the game a little more to find time to squeeze Sonic in. If Brawl had been made more recently though, Sonic probably would of been Brawl's first DLC character much like Mewtwo was in Smash 4. Fans absolutely still had an impact to bring Sonic in the game. Cause if Nintendo and/or Sakurai felt the game was too far in development and that the fans could handle no Sonic despite being by far the most requested 3rd party at the time. They could have denied Sega when they changed their mind.

Smash 4: 2nd only to Sonic in 3rd party requests, it was only natural Mega Man would come in for the next game in the series. He was much requested 3rd party that had more to do with Nintendo overall then Sonic did. But getting Sonic in was a priority simply for the ol' Rivalry days in the 90s. Other then Mega Man though. Smash 4 was definitely kind of lax on the fan request portion in terms of newcomers. Not that any of the newcomers other then Mega Man or Little Mac didn't have ANY demand at all they just definitely were in a direction that didn't quite meet too many longtime fan favorite requests. Even in DLC, Cloud (Cloud was cited by Sakurai to be the most requested Final Fantasy character despite the lack of Nintendo appearances by the character and his game) and the return of Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucas was any inclusions for the fans that missed them. Mewtwo particularly since he was practically demanded right in front of Sakurai

Ultimate: This current game however definitely seems to have gone the exact opposite of Smash 4's focus where it is indeed taking fan requests for the most part even just starting with every veteran ever back. Maybe you can argue Inkling wasn't (Albeit that seems to be an example of a character both pretty well requested and just so happens to be a hot new IP that Nintendo cashed big on quick) and Simon maybe (Though he's always been a suggestion as an alternative to Snake and/or Bomberman. And Ryu's inclusion in Smash 4 drew a path for more then one 3rd party franchise per company. Maybe Simon did better in the ballot then we think. We'll never know for sure though) all the characters in Ultimate probably did do well in the ballot in some way. Ridley and K. Rool both having been amongst the most popular suggestions since Brawl. With other Brawl followings such as Geno and Skull Kid being now considered quite likely now (Whether that bears fruit remains to be seen). And even the echo fighters one way or another were popular requests.

Nearly all the games since Melee have paid attention at least somewhat to what fans have wanted, it's Ultimate however that has definitely catered to fans more then any other. So it's definitely no surprise that the chances has shifted mainly to characters we know have been long requested. There will probably be another case or two of a more Smash 4-like inclusions such as a Gen 7 Pokemon. But otherwise the majority definitely seems to be amongst characters that have been much wanted.
 
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For Ultimate's roster, it is definitely an important aspect, especially when they have to take into account the Ballot. Considering that we got all veterans back, Ridley, and King K. Rool, the Ballot has already demonstrated significant influence.
Fan demand didn't save Bomberman from ending up as an Assist Trophy...
To be fair, he wasn't exactly at megaton support when the roster got decided for this game. Had he been at say, K. Rool or Mega Man-tier level of support, I'm sure he would already be on the roster.

Next game though, I am confident that he will be among the most wanted characters if only because of how few characters left there will be for people to gather around (at least once DLC ends).
 
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soviet prince

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ridley looks perfect, don't see the reason for the hate he gets
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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Putting a long-standing character that people love in is probably better than pushing new characters that people might not even like anymore once the dust settles.

This series is about fanservice, so one of the devs priorities should be to serve the fans (and make a fun game, obviously).

I'm quite happy with the direction Ultimate is heading.
Maybe. There is logic in that solving your customers' problems will lead you to success but paying too much attention to feedback can be a waste of time and may detract a developer from their creative path.

It's not always good to listen to fans 100% of the time. If they did, the roster would be vastly different. New or obscure characters and new IPs deserve a chance as well; after all, the fan favorites started out as unknown entities too and they've become legacy characters in Smash, like Ness, Cp. Falcon and IC. You gotta have a balance there because having a roster of just all stars would be boring without some curveballs thrown once in a while.
 
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Putuk

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Maybe. There is logic in that solving your customers' problems will lead you to success but paying too much attention to feedback can be a waste of time and may detract a developer from their creative path.

It's not always good to listen to fans 100% of the time. If they did, the roster would be vastly different. New or obscure characters and new IPs deserve a chance as well; after all, the fan favorites started out as unknown entities too and they've become legacy characters in Smash, like Ness, Cp. Falcon and IC. You gotta have a balance there because having a roster of just all stars would be boring without some curveballs thrown once in a while.
At this point we've already got pretty much all notable Nintendo characters in Smash, save for a few notable omissions.

'sides, worrying they'll cave 100% to fan demand is absurd, we'd have just gotten Melee over and over again otherwise.
 

31fps

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Honestly fan demand isn't relevant anymore. It's whatever anime Sakurai has gotten into vs. how much money they can make off of adding a fighter.
 

Luigifan18

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Honestly fan demand isn't relevant anymore. It's whatever anime Sakurai has gotten into vs. how much money they can make off of adding a fighter.
Troll detected... Explain Ridley and K. Rool, then.
 
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