The real reason Japan is better than America

Cassio

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Someone said all this way better a few days ago, lol.

I got bored about about page 10, but I have an interesting point to bring up.

Did anyone else find it curious that Japan managed to adjust to stages that they do not see regularly in tournament? Oh sure they probably put some practice in on each, but we've got years on them, so going to Frigate should be the best idea ever, right? Right? (Not against Olimar it's not... lol purples).

If you guys didn't already know, I do a bit of education research and that involves some cognitive psychology. I'll probably mix up my terms here and there, but the point that follows still stands:

We should adapt Japan's stage list. If we do so, our skill on stages outside the big 3 will improve.

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow players to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

This will work because with less factors to consider, you will be within the zone of proximital development. This is a term that is used to describe the range of cognitive stress one can survive under when learning. If I play a set with M2K (and I have. And I got whopped), I won't learn much because everything is going WAY TOO FAST. This means that the match itself is outside my zone of proximital development.

The concept works with stage gimicks too. If I have to consider whatever it is M2K is doing to me AND all the funny tricks that are present in playing a match on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, then I have even less of a chance of learning something significant. So I have to reduce the 'stress' on my brain.

The correct response to this problem is a simplified system

In the end, I believe that the implementation a Japanese stage set (BF, FD, SV) will greatly benefit our community via the simplification of our competitive system. Do this, and our character control and knowledge will rise to the challenge when the Japanese decide to fly their very best over to hand us our egos on a silver platter once again.
I forgot to talk about transfer...

It's the phenomena of applying previously attained knowledge to new conditions. Once players attain mastery of the big 3 stages, they'll be capable of utilizing their skills on other stages. A good example is the level of play displayed by Japanese MK's on Frigate. Did anyone else notice that they applied their BF/SV platform cancelling techniques to the part 1 transformation? It was pretty impressive, and fairly instrumental to their victories. The same could be said for their Olimars on Frigate and Yoshi's Island with respect to their use of platforms to limit overhead options.

When a high enough level of mastery is attained, transfer of skills to other environments becomes readily accessible. This set of high level movement skills will trump most stage gimmicks... but they are overshadowed by said gimmicks when everything is thrown into the mix at once. So my previous point is finally wrapped up here:

Mastering character skills and stage control skills on the big 3 will extend to play on other stages. Our stage skills will not diminish with a change in the rule set.
Everyones been ignoring it.
 

Ghostbone

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Having only FD, SV and BF legal is pretty silly, even Japan has 6 stages legal afaik. (3 starters and 3 counter-picks, I've definitely see them play on Delfino at least, one of the more intruding stages)

If such a stage list was adopted, than DSR and stage bans would have to be foregone.
 

GimR

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interesting read. I've always liked the idea of playing on stages that don't disrupt player vs. player interaction.
 

chckn

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Well im still interested in getting better as a competative player, but i also want to see how i would do if i put the energy i put in smash into other things like school/writing ect...

I still obviously care about smash and the players, so something like this hit me so i had to do my part.
You have a very personal and entertaining writing style David. I'd love to see what becomes of your work if you put more effort into writing.
 

Max Ketchum

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I agree that their fundamentals are superior, but not necessarily because of the stage list or ruleset. They simply have a more refined style of playing the game because they'll dedicate the same amount of time to perfecting their basics as Americans will on mastering gimmicks, and then some. I highly doubt that learning (or even mastering) the 7-10 extra stages we've allowed for FOUR YEARS has really been such a factor.

Their level of dedication far exceeds ours, and it shows. The Japanese aren't daunted by the long hours of practicing even the simplest of aspects of a character and making sure there are no gaps in their execution. They've even shown to be committed to learning more advanced "gimmicks" than us, such as platform drop canceling Shuttle Loop and the banana footstool infinites.
 

Steam

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completely disagree with the OP. no reason we should ban almost all the stages because japan did better at apex. being able to adapt to the stage is an important skill and something inherent to smash. if you want to beat japan then fine, play on those stages more or CP people there. Or in a tourney set just have you and your opponent agree to play on those stages if they both want to play that way. but there's really no reason to ban stages that have been proven to be fit for competition and balanced.

not to mention the stages you want to cut everything down to are some of the most polar stages in the entire game. our ruleset already nerfs MK hard enough loool.
 

2-DJeff

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I don't believe their wifi has no delay. I'd have to see it to believe it. Even smash 64 has delay online due to the constant need of data transfer for every frame inputted.
They're internet is fiber optics. It has no delay. Reason why america dosnt have it because our taxes will be raised a lot more. Its very expensive. Maybe new york, certain parts of cali and certain parts of washington state can aford it. But we don't have it at all. Cost to much to replace everything.

:phone:
 

Dr. Tuen

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I discussed this point of view from a learning psychology point of view in the other thread. I've been doing this kind of thing for 2.5 years, if any of you need some kind of validation of the opinion. (Call me critical, but players tend not to listen to someone who hasn't won a national...)

In smash we have three basic things to think about:

Yourself
This is how you control your character, any applicable techniques you may need to learn, and the practice it takes to make this all fluid.

Your Opponent
This includes match up knowledge, reads + responses, and even some player-specific knowledge if necessary.

The Stages
This includes stage gimmicks, match up altering counterpicks, and character-specific weakness (which would be covered by a stage ban).

Psychologically, we can scaffold knowledge better if we reduce the amount of information we have to think about at once. In mathematics, students have an easy time figuring out 2 variable problems, but 3 variable problems go right over their heads. When the 3rd variable gets thrown in, human beings simply lose their ability to intuitively figure out the appropriate interactions.

So, we need to reduce how much we think about at once. In this case, it's the stage list. Of the three big things there, the stages are the easiest to reduce. The knowledge gained from gameplay on the big three can be transferred to other stages. One example I saw the Japanese use were the Shuttle Loop cancel mechanics used on Smashville. Those were taken over to Frigate at one point, for interesting ledge play near the left side of the first transformation.

I could go on about this forever...

Here, have a collapse tag with the other posts in them.

I got bored about about page 10, but I have an interesting point to bring up.

Did anyone else find it curious that Japan managed to adjust to stages that they do not see regularly in tournament? Oh sure they probably put some practice in on each, but we've got years on them, so going to Frigate should be the best idea ever, right? Right? (Not against Olimar it's not... lol purples).

If you guys didn't already know, I do a bit of education research and that involves some cognitive psychology. I'll probably mix up my terms here and there, but the point that follows still stands:

We should adapt Japan's stage list. If we do so, our skill on stages outside the big 3 will improve.

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow players to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

This will work because with less factors to consider, you will be within the zone of proximital development. This is a term that is used to describe the range of cognitive stress one can survive under when learning. If I play a set with M2K (and I have. And I got whopped), I won't learn much because everything is going WAY TOO FAST. This means that the match itself is outside my zone of proximital development.

The concept works with stage gimicks too. If I have to consider whatever it is M2K is doing to me AND all the funny tricks that are present in playing a match on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, then I have even less of a chance of learning something significant. So I have to reduce the 'stress' on my brain.

The correct response to this problem is a simplified system

In the end, I believe that the implementation a Japanese stage set (BF, FD, SV) will greatly benefit our community via the simplification of our competitive system. Do this, and our character control and knowledge will rise to the challenge when the Japanese decide to fly their very best over to hand us our egos on a silver platter once again.
I forgot to talk about transfer...

It's the phenomena of applying previously attained knowledge to new conditions. Once players attain mastery of the big 3 stages, they'll be capable of utilizing their skills on other stages. A good example is the level of play displayed by Japanese MK's on Frigate. Did anyone else notice that they applied their BF/SV platform cancelling techniques to the part 1 transformation? It was pretty impressive, and fairly instrumental to their victories. The same could be said for their Olimars on Frigate and Yoshi's Island with respect to their use of platforms to limit overhead options.

When a high enough level of mastery is attained, transfer of skills to other environments becomes readily accessible. This set of high level movement skills will trump most stage gimmicks... but they are overshadowed by said gimmicks when everything is thrown into the mix at once. So my previous point is finally wrapped up here:

Mastering character skills and stage control skills on the big 3 will extend to play on other stages. Our stage skills will not diminish with a change in the rule set.


tl;dr consider the possibility that the cause-effect relationship could be

More practice on specific stages ==> better on those stages

and not

More practice on specific stages ==> better everywhere
In the end, I'm arguing for the reverse of this statement. General knowledge will trump the use of gimmicks, if learned properly.
 

da K.I.D.

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My question is that if nairo had won the tourney and m2k didn't lose to rob, and ally beat nietono, would people still feel the same way about these things, because from what I saw of the tournament, I didn't see anything that should change anybodys opinion from what they thought before the tournament

:phone:
 

Mekos

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What I have been trying to say for months Seibrik!! Thank you!
Now lets hope the URC can understand this...

@Doom - I agree with your first statement completely. Instead of people mastering the basics they just john about mk. That is what baffles me. So many complain complain complain and if u watch them play haven't even mastered DI yet. That is the issue.
 

C.J.

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For the record, since I'm tired of seeing "three stages" in every thread I click in reference to Japan:

Japan's stage list:
Starter:
FD, SV, BF
CP:
LC
YI
Delphino
 

Cassio

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Kid Ive said the same thing before. You cant make arguments on what ifs. What if Kakera beat ESAM, Rain beat larry, etc etc. It goes both ways. What we have to go off of is what happened.
I agree that their fundamentals are superior, but not necessarily because of the stage list or ruleset. They simply have a more refined style of playing the game because they'll dedicate the same amount of time to perfecting their basics as Americans will on mastering gimmicks, and then some. I highly doubt that learning (or even mastering) the 7-10 extra stages we've allowed for FOUR YEARS has really been such a factor.

Their level of dedication far exceeds ours, and it shows. The Japanese aren't daunted by the long hours of practicing even the simplest of aspects of a character and making sure there are no gaps in their execution. They've even shown to be committed to learning more advanced "gimmicks" than us, such as platform drop canceling Shuttle Loop and the banana footstool infinites.
I agree with this too. Our mindset is pretty poor compared to theirs. But after reading Tuens post I kind of think its both.
 

Mekos

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And the fact that most of our community wants mk banned shows u about our mindset.
These things go hand in hand. It truly saddens me. I hope people can man up and accept they were wrong and take responsibility for their losses and try to get better.
 

GimR

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Another important point:

It's illegal to run tournaments for money in Japan, because of this money can't be an incentive. Because money isn't an incentive their motives for the most part can't be destructive to competetive play. They play to get better and they play for the love of the game. Splitting can't happen, forfeiting most likely won't happen, bracket rigging most likely won't happen. Why? Because no money is on the line, they are playing for honor, they have no real reason to do any of those things.
 

~ Gheb ~

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My question is that if nairo had won the tourney and m2k didn't lose to rob, and ally beat nietono, would people still feel the same way about these things, because from what I saw of the tournament, I didn't see anything that should change anybodys opinion from what they thought before the tournament.
This is very true and important. Ally can beat 9B and Otori [just not with his MK] and so can Mew2King in good shape, Anti can beat Nietono for sure and we've already seen Nairo doing it as well.

It strikes me as really odd how people start to exaggerate things in the wrong direction - just because people are shocked that Japan has proven itself to be better than North America doesn't mean that people should lose their heads about the issue. Japan is better but it's not like "omg Japan is so much better than USA HOLY ****". The truth is that all of the things that are better about the way Japan runs its tourneys lead to the same outcome: that the Japanese have a more constructive mental approach to the game. This s where they really excel - may it be their will to practice, or their ability to stay calm and open minded while playing. This is the whole reason why Japan is currently better than the USA, they don't play on a "whole other level". They do exactly the things everybody else does - they've just learned to do it a little better.

Edit: GIMR also raises a good point [that ultimately leads to my conclusion too] but the "they play for honor" part is straight up BS. But the fact that they don't play for money helps in another way: not only does it not distort their competition, it also allows for "scrubby" side events. A Brawl tournament can be the greatest fun in the world if you run a FFA tourney next to the regular singles competition - but you can't get that for money. If tourneys are fun then more people will continue to attend them. Why do you think monthly tourneys in the Osaka area regularly hit between 60 and 100 entrants?

:059:
 

GarthWolf

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This is very true and important. Ally can beat 9B and Otori [just not with his MK] and so can Mew2King in good shape, Anti can beat Nietono for sure and we've already seen Nairo doing it as well.

It strikes me as really odd how people start to exaggerate things in the wrong direction - just because people are shocked that Japan has proven itself to be better than North America doesn't mean that people should lose their heads about the issue. Japan is better but it's not like "omg Japan is so much better than USA HOLY ****". The truth is that all of the things that are better about the way Japan runs its tourneys
lead to the same outcome: that the Japanese have a more constructive mental approach to the game. This s where they really excel - may it be their will to practice, or their ability to stay calm and open minded while playing. This is the whole reason why Japan is currently better than the USA, they don't play on a "whole other level". They do exactly the things everybody else does - they've just learned to do it a little better.

:059:
Wow....really well said, Gheb. :)
 

Reizilla

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A different typeset won't do much (maybe the timer). We've all seen M2K play on Smashville. American players need to adopt a different MINDSET about the game instead of always resorting to the absolute gayest tactic or trying to get everything handed to them.
 

B.A.M.

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@ Seibrik: Thank you for making this thread Seibrik.

I have been saying this from day 1, yet people just couldnt understand the concept. America tries the find the easy way out, Japan just got better. Its as simple as that. I dont understand how people want Smash to be a solid fighter with such ridiculous stages on. It just doesnt make any sense. In a fighter you are trying to test opponent a vs opponent b. Yes, in some fighters stages make an impact, however it should never be more than marginal in the overall scheme of things. Yet people insist day in and day out they want this dumb stage and that dumb stage, not understanding how that devolves the game into some stupid CP stage contest, which is far from what is intended.

Brawl is a solid game (sans tripping). People are learning more solid punishment options and reads are more rewarding. The game doesnt give you necessarily a huge damage yield for a punish ( sans ICs) however a lot of times people can be placed into a bad frame trap situation or something and the reads required are less as we continue on. Which means playing OVERALL super safe isnt as strong as a tactic as before. We just need to get rid of these stupid, stages that buff stupid tactics needlessly. I mean I hate the argument ' OH YOU TAKE OFF STAGES YOU ARE NERFING MK, THAT MEANS HES BROKEN.' No, that means you are an idiot. This game isnt Melee, but due to people's wishes to be so, we placed Melee inspired limiters on the game. The time limit and the stage types we enjoy. But Brawl is a different game, where these stages over-centralize easy and very strong tactics. You see, taking off stages wouldnt nerf MK, IT WOULD DEBUFF HIM. These stages shouldve never been chosen as part of the stage list in the first place. I dont care who says these stages check out, neutrals have always been the best way to go with soft CPs AT MOST. THIS IS A FIGHTING GAME PEOPLE. NOT A PLATFORMER. Stages are fun and make our game unique in some sense but they should never be overbearing as they are now. It has weakened us tremendously, and curtailed American progress in this game. That along with johning.

I would also like to note that this scenario for brawl isnt uncommon with the American FGC. We do this all the time. We live by the Sanford Law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGh4ZU4H5Hk

However you look at Japan, or even East Asian FGC in general, people put in work with their characters regardless of Tier List. The Fighting Game Community in Japan is on a completely different level. They study tactics, learn frame data, and progress their game daily. Now i know that for a ton of Brawl players this is their first dive into the competitive FG scene. Which is probably why they were all like 'LOL JAPAN' when anyone who knows A DAMN THING ABOUT FIGHTING GAMES would know thats the dumbest thing you could possibly ever do. Im not saying we should follow Japan blindly, no we can create our own solid Brawl culture, however you best damn be taking notes. Im tired of being the Land of the Free. I hate not putting in mad hours into this game, and turning around to teach someone the most basic tactic vs their 'most well known MU' ish is ridiculous.
 
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My question is that if nairo had won the tourney and m2k didn't lose to rob, and ally beat nietono, would people still feel the same way about these things, because from what I saw of the tournament, I didn't see anything that should change anybodys opinion from what they thought before the tournament

:phone:
My question is that if top 8 looked like Nietono, Brood, Rain (who had gone falco only), Ocean, Mr R, Leon, ADHD, Dabuz would people still feel the same way about these things?

Stupid question.
 

Mekos

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I'm so happy that people are realizing it is all about the mentality of a player. Please don't think banning a character will force people's mentality to change.

Most of America plays to win. Not to be the best that they can be.
 

ProTips_OverLade

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I completely disagree and think that the real reason Japan is better than the USA is that they just somehow have naturally godlike reaction times... But carry on :)
 

TheLastCacely

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why did it take so long for a top player to make a post like this? the stages and CP system for them have been one of the worst things in smash since melee happened.
 

zmx

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Seibrik all of this was mentioned in the other topic multiple times. All the same I'm not complaining. The more exposure this gets, the better.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Stop saying Japan plays for "honor". If you watch stuff like Otori vs Nagahari or Masashi vs 9B you'll quickly see that it's complete BS.

:059:
 

infiniteV115

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The Japanese players' better performance could perhaps be explained by various factors, such as
-East Asians are smart lol
-Higher population density --> more people per region --> better practice for everyone
-Maybe not playing for money somehow gets you to improve faster than playing for money

I'm not saying that any of the above are definitely reasons for their better performance, but they're possibilities. Also, to attribute the Japanese players' better performance solely to the fact that their stagelist is more conservative is unjustified. By that logic the Europeans would have performed better than us as well, and they did pretty badly as a whole.

(Literally copied and pasted from a post I made in the Stage Discussion Q&A Thread, or whatever it's called)
 

ProTips_OverLade

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Japan is better than the rest of the world at almost EVERY fighting game. In street fighter top Evo placings don't look much different. Why is everyone trying to find an excuse for a simple phenomenon? They're just better.
 

TheLastCacely

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I think people r taking this waaaaaaaayyy to far. like... we didnt even get destroyed. Nairo was winning in winners finals.... but hes young, got excited, predictable, etc. i mean this tourney could have gone to america just as easy as it went to japan. i dont think japan was the clear victor.
 

Sensei Seibrik

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1st. otori

3rd. nairo


ya japan wasnt the clear victor at all.....



also wen i get to a comp. im gona compile the big posts of this debate and organize it in the op.

regardless of what the true reason for japans success, i don't believe we should just blindly accept that their better.

i think, amoung other things, starting with a more conservative stage list is an excellent starting point to close whatever gap of skill thats been created over the past couple years.

:phone:
 

Cassio

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I hope youd seen it before because a 14 minute long video isnt 7 minutes.

Anyways, anyone who believes in relying on powerful tactics over personal improvement would disagree with it. I just think its funny that youd use the explanation that the japanese are better by nature of them being japanese.
 

2-DJeff

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Lol I play street fighter at a high level and oveeall japan is waaaaay better. They win every national except one. That was ncr right before AE filipino champ one with 2 japanese right behind him rofl.

:phone:
 
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