Meta The Psychic Log: Mewtwo's Metagame Discussion

[Browny]

This should be the new topic

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dykzj/mewtwo_can_do_some_cool_stuff_with_ledge_trump/

 

[Sonicninja115]

This should be the new topic

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4dykzj/mewtwo_can_do_some_cool_stuff_with_ledge_trump/

I saw this awhile ago, but I could never find out how to get the instant wall-jump. A DJ Uair-Fair is extremely easy out of it. Can you explain it? Is it extremely precise or harder then PP? I haven't been able to get LLG, but I can consistently implement PP, so I am trying to find it's difficulty.

 

[Y2Kay]

of course the first person to take interest is mew2king

 

[Sonicninja115]

of course the first person to take interest is mew2king

I noticed that. Hilarious.

 

[C0rvus]

What do you guys think of Mewtwo in doubles? He seems like he'd not want to be in front but perhaps he could be the lead with his speed and attack size. My friend and I are entering a doubles event, and we're unsure of our team composition. Meta Knight, my main, tends to prefer a supporting role, so would Mewtwo be a good lead? Better yet, what sort of character do you guys think Mewtwo would want his teammate to be? I have had a hard time finding good footage of him, so it's hard for me to tell how well he does in doubles and what his preferred role is. He seems pretty capable to me, though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

What do you guys think of Mewtwo in doubles? He seems like he'd not want to be in front but perhaps he could be the lead with his speed and attack size. My friend and I are entering a doubles event, and we're unsure of our team composition. Meta Knight, my main, tends to prefer a supporting role, so would Mewtwo be a good lead? Better yet, what sort of character do you guys think Mewtwo would want his teammate to be? I have had a hard time finding good footage of him, so it's hard for me to tell how well he does in doubles and what his preferred role is. He seems pretty capable to me, though.

Check out Dabuz at XenoFour. It should be up on houseof3000's youtube. He entered doubles with Mewtwo. And Aba might have used him at Pound in doubles.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Next topic? Suggestions? We can do doubles and something else or ledge trump and something else. (2000 yay...)

 

[Browny]

Does anyone know if there is a calculator for hitstun in this game?

I was testing before whether jab - dash usmash is a trap on certain characters at KO %s (so, 90+). On Lucario at 1/4 speed training frame by frame the usmash came out before any of his aerials or counter (seemed to be somewhere around 5-7 frames advantage, so that would mean anything slower than 5 wont come out quick enough), caught his jump and airdodge.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does anyone know if there is a calculator for hitstun in this game?

I was testing before whether jab - dash usmash is a trap on certain characters at KO %s (so, 90+). On Lucario at 1/4 speed training frame by frame the usmash came out before any of his aerials or counter (seemed to be somewhere around 5-7 frames advantage, so that would mean anything slower than 5 wont come out quick enough), caught his jump and airdodge.

Try the Mechanics and Techniques Q&A. That has all the top Labbers and researchers.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Bidou and Doubles:

Go ahead and discuss!

Also, there are many types of Bidou, including Attack stick and smash stick Bidou, so feel free to discuss them all.

Doubles is pretty simple. What role would one play? How good is Mewtwo?

 

[C0rvus]

So in the little practice I had with my buddy in doubles, Mewtwo seems pretty flexible. Down tilt, fair, bair, up tilt, and shadow ball are all very capable walling tools, so Mewtwo seems able to take the lead by controlling the stage with his speed and large attacks. He can also play support even better, because he's fast and can often assist his teammate or get followups. Charged Shadow Ball can cause a lot of chaos or secure surprise stocks, and be used as a punish tool from afar.

We were getting a good deal of follow-ups out of his forward throw, but down throw could definitely net some smash attack kills from his teammate. One thing to think about is if any of his throws have invincibility. I couldn't tell you off-hand. Fthrow can sometimes catch both enemies and can be generally disruptive.

I feel like his ideal partner is someone who can match his pace and set up a lot of team combos, and both players can assume flexible roles depending on the stock count. Or, having a stock tank as a partner could alleviate Mewtwo's potential to get KOed early. I think Mewtwo is potentially among the best supports in the game, up there with Sheik, Meta Knight, and Cloud.

But that's just my limited experience. For some examples of actual Mewtwo doubles matches, Dabuz did play Mewtwo while teaming with Jtails at a NY event. Here's some of that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tOBAkWptm8

 

[IndigoSSB]

The Corrin boards are having a discussion on the match-up with Mewtwo. If any of you Mewtwo specialists would like to add your two cents then drop by here: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-matchup-thread.435263/

This is a relatively unexplored match-up, so the more input we can get from both sides the better!

 

[Sonicninja115]

New topic!

Tier List and General Opinion:

Where do you think Mewtwo is on the tier list? Why? What do you think of the general publics opinion that Mewtwo is amazing now and that the weight buff is the best thing ever? What do you think about most top players saying their character goes even with Mewtwo? Voice your thoughts!

 

[C0rvus]

Mewtwo seems pretty clearly to be high tier, at least. He just has everything you need; very strong neutral, explosive kill power, long and hard to intercept recovery with mixups, the best fair in the universe, and high ground and air speed. His weaknesses are relevant, and play into the fact that many players see their main going even with him. The potential to get killed early is more or less always present. However, I think his MU spread is very good, and he also has a niche as a powerful anti-zoner.

He has already proven to be capable of winning large events more or less on his own, and he is a relevant threat. I have heard arguments that he goes even with or has a slight edge on Cloud or Bayonetta. However, there is also the fact that by design, things can quickly turn sour for him. Such a character should exist alongside others of a like "power level"; alongside Pikachu, Ness, Meta Knight, Ryu, and Toon Link. Around top 10 but not top 5. I don't have a well structured opinion of the meta at the moment, so I cannot place him more specifically. I do have a very high opinion of Mewtwo, though.

 

[Y2Kay]

Pretty much what c0rvus said.

I have him 11th on my tier list, but I could see him going higher. Abadango's Mewtwo play is far from perfect and optimized, but he still does remarkably well.

The future looks bright for us (as long as we don't get nerfed)

 

[Y2Kay]

We should discuss frame traps next.

 

[Sonicninja115]

We should discuss frame traps next.

Good idea!

Frame traps:

Current off the top of my head ones:

FH Uair-Fair

FH Fair - FF Fair - Dtilt

SB - Grab/DA

Jab frame traps

More to come!

Discuss! Test! Lab!

 

[meleebrawler]

The entire strategy of Phasing is something of a frame trap when used aggressively.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Phasing isn't strictly a frametrap, since the airdodge is contestable/punishable. The aerial that that you use afterwards (e.g. Fair) can lead to frame traps though.

 

[Litany]

I didn't see anything about this posted on any threads; if this is already well known, my apologies.

It's relatively situational, but seems like a good tool if an opportunity arises.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I didn't see anything about this posted on any threads; if this is already well known, my apologies.

It's relatively situational, but seems like a good tool if an opportunity arises.

Okay, so the technique itself is old, however, using it with Mewtwo is either new, or before my time. (Only joined in July last year)

 

[11volt]

Good idea!

Frame traps:

Current off the top of my head ones:

FH Uair-Fair

FH Fair - FF Fair - Dtilt

SB - Grab/DA

Jab frame traps

More to come!

Discuss! Test! Lab!

Wait: what exactly is a frame trap?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wait: what exactly is a frame trap?

A frame trap is a situation where you always win. For example, a Mini SB on shield is a frame trap. If they drop shield, you can hit them with Dash Attack. If they hold shield, you can grab them.

Another is Dtilt-SHFF Usmash at 100%. If the opponent jumps, you can DJ Uair. If they airdodge, Usmash will connect.

Another way to explain it is that you are using one thing to force an option and then punish the frames wasted.

Does this make sense?

 

[Megamang]

Not exactly a frame trap, but when reflecting projectiles you should try and reflect as late into the Confusion as you can (frame 35 if possible). This gives you a reflector with only 10 frames of recovery, meaning you can often approach behind it with even more safety than your SB in some cases. Arcthunder reflected is deadly

 

[EternalFlare]

A frame trap is a situation where you always win. For example, a Mini SB on shield is a frame trap. If they drop shield, you can hit them with Dash Attack. If they hold shield, you can grab them.

Another is Dtilt-SHFF Usmash at 100%. If the opponent jumps, you can DJ Uair. If they airdodge, Usmash will connect.

Another way to explain it is that you are using one thing to force an option and then punish the frames wasted.

Does this make sense?

Those are 50/50s as you can't react fast enough to pick the correct option. You'll have to commit to the dash attack if you were expecting drop shield/jump OOS or dash grab if you were expecting them to stay in shield. You can't just instantly react to the drop shield and pick dash attack on reaction.

A frame trap traditionally means when you're opponent gets punished for pressing buttons as you leave small "holes" or openings where they think they think they can do something but really can't. In traditional fighters, this is when the opponent is blocking, they try to press something thinking they can, but your next move comes out first, counter hitting them.

So to use your example, shadow ball - dash attack is a frame trap because if and only if they try to act offensively out of it, they'll get hit.

Another common example in Smash is frame trapping air dodges. So you put out one aerial in such a way where if they air dodge, you'll recover before they do and be able to put out another aerial/grounded move before they recover from the air dodge. So whether they do nothing or air dodge, they get hit. But if they just jump away or something, it won't work (provided they had enough time to do so).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Those are 50/50s as you can't react fast enough to pick the correct option. You'll have to commit to the dash attack if you were expecting drop shield/jump OOS or dash grab if you were expecting them to stay in shield. You can't just instantly react to the drop shield and pick dash attack on reaction.

A frame trap traditionally means when you're opponent gets punished for pressing buttons as you leave small "holes" or openings where they think they think they can do something but really can't. In traditional fighters, this is when the opponent is blocking, they try to press something thinking they can, but your next move comes out first, counter hitting them.

So to use your example, shadow ball - dash attack is a frame trap because if and only if they try to act offensively out of it, they'll get hit.

Another common example in Smash is frame trapping air dodges. So you put out one aerial in such a way where if they air dodge, you'll recover before they do and be able to put out another aerial/grounded move before they recover from the air dodge. So whether they do nothing or air dodge, they get hit. But if they just jump away or something, it won't work (provided they had enough time to do so).

Usually we have to clump the titles under one roof for newcomers and inexperienced players. Mewtwo's main frame traps are punishing landing lag from an air dodge. Other then that, he just has 50/50's. For example, Mewtwo can FH and use any 2 aerials besides Dair. So, you SH Uair, and if they air dodge, you punish the landing lag of the air dodge with another aerial or possible Dtilt.

 

[Browny]

I'll just drop this here, from competitive forum

---

Sheik main says that Sheik has a 50/50 kill set up on Mewtwo from uthrow at what I would guess is around 80-100%.

I'm around 101% sure that if you FF airdodge, it kills the 50/50 set up.

So M2 players try to remember that in the sheik matchup and don't die to this nonsense and live to 150% instead

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'll just drop this here, from competitive forum

View attachment 116543

---

Sheik main says that Sheik has a 50/50 kill set up on Mewtwo from uthrow at what I would guess is around 80-100%.

I'm around 101% sure that if you FF airdodge, it kills the 50/50 set up.

So M2 players try to remember that in the sheik matchup and don't die to this nonsense and live to 150% instead

Nair is frame 7 so I don't know about that. Fair maybe? I don't see why Mewtwo couldn't DJ out. Hmmm. I need to page the frame data master.

 

[Browny]

The nair is only after you airdodge so that you win the 50/50 if she goes to uair. You can do whatever you want, the point is airdodge and fast fall and sheik can never kill you from this.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The nair is only after you airdodge so that you win the 50/50 if she goes to uair. You can do whatever you want, the point is airdodge and fast fall and sheik can never kill you from this.

Woops, I thought you meant immediate FF Nair.

 

[Browny]

Can someone that has a recording set up test something for me because I was discussing it on Reddit and people keep asking for proof and I want someone else to be able to recreate what I did before claiming its proof.

Basically, diddys dtilt-usmash doesnt combo on Mewtwo at KO %'s.

I tested this months ago, if not last year I don't even remember. Basically put mewtwo on around 100%. Lets say Diddys dtilt has 3 ranges. Tipper, mid and point blank. If you go into training and pause the game just as diddys dtilt is coming out, hold up and away with mewtwo. Unpause and do the dash-usmash with diddy while keep on holding up and away. The first hit of usmash should link into the second, but by then you have DI'd so hard that the third hit misses. Mash jump the entire time the usmash is hitting to escape it properly.

I recall being able to fall out of the usmash for mid and long range, but not point blank. Someone told me that diddy can jump-cancel the usmash to make it slide but that doesn't fix anything since mewtwo is falling up out of it, not out of it to the side.

 

[Krysco]

I can see about testing it and recording it tonight. Could test online with someone if anyone is free. If not then I can see about doing it myself.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can someone that has a recording set up test something for me because I was discussing it on Reddit and people keep asking for proof and I want someone else to be able to recreate what I did before claiming its proof.

Basically, diddys dtilt-usmash doesnt combo on Mewtwo at KO %'s.

I tested this months ago, if not last year I don't even remember. Basically put mewtwo on around 100%. Lets say Diddys dtilt has 3 ranges. Tipper, mid and point blank. If you go into training and pause the game just as diddys dtilt is coming out, hold up and away with mewtwo. Unpause and do the dash-usmash with diddy while keep on holding up and away. The first hit of usmash should link into the second, but by then you have DI'd so hard that the third hit misses. Mash jump the entire time the usmash is hitting to escape it properly.

I recall being able to fall out of the usmash for mid and long range, but not point blank. Someone told me that diddy can jump-cancel the usmash to make it slide but that doesn't fix anything since mewtwo is falling up out of it, not out of it to the side.

I have experience testing these things, so I will try to replicate it. Also, I believe most characters can do this, but there is some sort of mix-up Diddy can do or something. Might just be RAR Bair though.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sorry for the DP, but... Anyways, Browny Mewtwo can indeed DI up and Up and Away to escape the combo. Sadly, all Diddy needs to do is slightly change his dash. I was able to consistently true Dtilt-Usmash with both DI's, however, you can mix-up the diddy kong with this option, allowing M2 to live a bit longer. I was testing this at kill percents.

Another happy note is that Dtilt-Fsmash is actually a true combo on Mewtwo! Yay! It is near frame perfect, and can sorta be beaten by away DI, however, not if the Diddy uses a banana-Dtilt. Also, if you DI away and he goes for Fair instead....

 

[Krysco]

Browny if you still want video proof, I'm home and able to record it for you.

 

[Browny]

I'd take a dtilt fair 100x over before taking a dtilt usmash since fair is going to be staled to hell.

Same with a rar bair. Its going to kill at what like... 150% mid stage?

This is one of those situations where you should ALWAYS choose one option over the other because the worst case scenario is still better than the best case scenario by not DI'ing out of it. Just like that sheik uthrow-uair scenario I explained a week or two ago where fast-fall airdodge into nair is the superior option every single time.

If you can tape it, please do. I do remember that even with diddy doing a longer dash I was able to mash jump and fall out of the third hit. Of course, I was doing all this myself thats why I never claimed it as solid proof.

 

[Krysco]

Trying it in training and I can't even get Mewtwo to di out of the third hit. Wanted to do a successful run of it before recording. The set up is a bit awkward but I have Diddy as the player and Mewtwo as the cpu set to control and the damage is 100% and the stage is Omega Pokemon Stadium 2. Control layout is default since it's easier to do a running usmash by just smashing the left stick to run then hitting the right stick up for the usmash. I set the speed to 1/4 and make it so L has to be held to advance time, have Diddy dtilt Mewtwo without being right next to him, let go of L before the hitbox comes out, have Mewtwo hold up and away, press down L again and have Diddy run and do an usmash while holding up and away for Mewtwo. I pause again just as the first hit of usmash connects so I can focus my hands on Mewtwo's di and mashing jump and all 3 hits connect every time. I noticed the one time that the dtilt to usmash wasn't registered as a 4 hit combo so I was too late and Mewtwo was lower but I tried again and got it to register as a 4 hit combo.

The awkward part is having my one hand rest on the control stick to keep Mewtwo di'ing up and away and I can see the di happening, while having my fingers for both hands do the running usmash.

My only guesses are either the percent is too low (you did say ko %s and Mewtwo isn't dying to the usmash at 100%), it's not actually possible (but then you claimed to have done it before and Sonicninja supports the claim that it can be done) or I'm just messing it up which is entirely possible. I'll give it a few more goes and if I can't get it, I'll see if I can get my cousin to help when he's next over.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Trying it in training and I can't even get Mewtwo to di out of the third hit. Wanted to do a successful run of it before recording. The set up is a bit awkward but I have Diddy as the player and Mewtwo as the cpu set to control and the damage is 100% and the stage is Omega Pokemon Stadium 2. Control layout is default since it's easier to do a running usmash by just smashing the left stick to run then hitting the right stick up for the usmash. I set the speed to 1/4 and make it so L has to be held to advance time, have Diddy dtilt Mewtwo without being right next to him, let go of L before the hitbox comes out, have Mewtwo hold up and away, press down L again and have Diddy run and do an usmash while holding up and away for Mewtwo. I pause again just as the first hit of usmash connects so I can focus my hands on Mewtwo's di and mashing jump and all 3 hits connect every time. I noticed the one time that the dtilt to usmash wasn't registered as a 4 hit combo so I was too late and Mewtwo was lower but I tried again and got it to register as a 4 hit combo.

The awkward part is having my one hand rest on the control stick to keep Mewtwo di'ing up and away and I can see the di happening, while having my fingers for both hands do the running usmash.

My only guesses are either the percent is too low (you did say ko %s and Mewtwo isn't dying to the usmash at 100%), it's not actually possible (but then you claimed to have done it before and Sonicninja supports the claim that it can be done) or I'm just messing it up which is entirely possible. I'll give it a few more goes and if I can't get it, I'll see if I can get my cousin to help when he's next over.

I was doing it at 120% Also, try taunting with M2 at full speed instead of using 1/4th. (Input the DI during the taunt animation) I personally use my forearm to DI properly, moving the controller to make inputting the different options easier, and using my hands to input the combo.

Also, Dtilt-Bair is dumb scary. I was killing at 130.

 

[Krysco]

I was doing it at 120% Also, try taunting with M2 at full speed instead of using 1/4th. (Input the DI during the taunt animation) I personally use my forearm to DI properly, moving the controller to make inputting the different options easier, and using my hands to input the combo.

Also, Dtilt-Bair is dumb scary. I was killing at 130.

I'll give it a try again tomorrow with the increased percent and with your method rather than the 1/4 speed one.

 

[Browny]

I just tested it for a bit then... I'm still convinced you can escape it.

Do it one 1/4 stop motion and dtilt mewtwo on 105% from mid range. The instant the dtilt connects, pause it. Use your right hand little finger to push mewtwo up and diagonal and hold it there. Unpause it and dash forwards with diddy and cstick up. Pause it again the instant you hit that (so within the first 2-3 frames of the attack coming out) and switch both hands to control Mewtwo, DI up and away and mash jump.

Diddy has to dash just that little bit further to catch Mewtwo which makes the usmash actually come out a frame or two before your double jump. If the jump comes out, you're likely to fall out of the usmash but most of the time youll just jump away.

This doesn't work if diddy dtilts you from close range like I said, its mid and tipper range only.