1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

The Project M Backroom Releases New PM 3.6 Tier List

Discussion in 'News' started by L Pag, Sep 9, 2017.

Louis "L_Pag" Pagillo, Sep 9, 2017 at 6:57 PM
  1. L Pag

    L Pag
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Long Island
    3DS FC:
    2191-7643-9888
    [​IMG]

    With over a year since their last tier list, the Project M Backroom (PMBR) has been hard at work to finalize and release their third revision of the official Project M tier list. With one of the most unpredictable years in Project M’s competitive life, the meta is reaching a point in which it’s no longer constantly changing. While there are still plenty of sleeper characters and techniques that could make waves in the future, as of right now, the meta is the at its most developed state, with players and characters making clear rises to the top.

    The PMBR, which added many new members earlier this year, is comprised of 22 members. These members were all carefully chosen from applications in order to gain as much character and region diversity as possible. Many members are prominent members within the Project M community, whether it be as players or as content creators. The PMBR consists of:

    Boiko
    Reslived
    Yata!
    Strong Bad (not present for the creation of the tier list)
    Sabre
    Pikmon
    Aki
    Kumatora
    Apollo Ali
    AED
    Ripple
    Dirtboy
    Pooch
    Flashing Fire
    Goode
    E2xD
    Tealz
    Odds
    Oracle
    Filthy Casual
    Fuzz
    Maddox

    The PMBR determined the tier list over months of discussion, using a method that involved averaging out each member’s character placements and editing the list further afterward. For more detail on this process, we have Nick Boiko to comment on the subject:

    “The Project M Back Room is composed of 22 members. Of those, 21 participated in the tier list project. Strong Bad opted out of participating due to being preoccupied with other work related engagements.

    The process for creating the tier list began with each backroom member creating a list based on a specific prompt. While the prompt focused more on results than theoretical potential, panelists were allowed to be flexible when they felt strongly about a certain character’s position. A great example of this is Falco. While Falco is very rarely in the spotlight, many panelists felt his theoretical strengths couldn’t be ignored, and they placed him much higher than his results could indicate.

    It was stressed to the panelists that this list is not an attempt at a “final perfect tier list.” Rather, it was to be presented as an earmark of Project M’s current metagame, with reasonable adjustments made for theory and expectations. Another example of this is Donkey Kong. Donkey Kong is very clearly dominate with outstanding performances by Thunderz Reign, however, most of the panelists agreed that Donkey Kong has fewer strengths and more exploitable weaknesses than other high tier characters, and these weaknesses will be pushed further as the meta progresses.

    After the panelists created their lists, a final average list was created. Tier separations were generally very obvious, with notable gaps between characters dividing tiers. Once this list was created, the characters with the greatest standard deviation were targeted as starting points for discussion. Discussions continued down the list until it was generally agreed upon that the list should be changed no further.”

    Like Boiko mentioned, the list is not a “final” tier list. This list only represents the current meta, and will likely see many changes with next year’s list. Without further adieu, here is the offical Project M Backroom’s PM 3.6 tier list:

    [​IMG]
    photo credit: PMBR

    S Tier: :metaknight: :wolf:
    A Tier: :mewtwopm: :diddy: :warioc: :gw: :sheik:
    A- Tier: :fox: :falcon: :sonic: :dk2: :snake: :zerosuitsamus: :peach: :lucas: :popo:
    B Tier: :marth: :lucario: :ness2: :mario2: :toonlink: :falco: :pikachu2: :charizard:
    C Tier: :ike: :luigi2: :samus2: :ivysaur: :roypm: :link2: :squirtle: :rob:
    D Tier: :yoshi2: :dedede: :pit: :jigglypuff: :ganondorf: :zelda: :olimar:
    D- Tier: :kirby2: :bowser2:

    Text Version:

    S Tier: Meta Knight, Wolf
    A Tier: Mewtwo, Diddy Kong, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Sheik
    A- Tier: Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Peach, Lucas, Ice Climbers
    B Tier: Marth, Lucario, Ness, Mario, Toon Link, Falco, Pikachu, Charizard
    C Tier: Ike, Luigi, Samus, Ivysaur, Roy, Link, Squirtle, ROB
    D Tier: Yoshi, King Dedede, Pit, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Zelda, Olimar
    D- Tier: Kirby, Bowser

    For those who have kept up with the Project M meta and competitive scene in the past few months, it’s clear how this list was affected by it. Some notable examples include DK, who was thought to be a lower mid tier character a year ago, and Fox, who many considered to be the best character in PM in every update of the game. With many controversial placings, several of the PMBR members have come forward to shed some light on the decisions made.

    Sabre on the S-Tier:

    “The decision to have an S-Tier was a hotly contested decision among panelists, with many arguing that Meta Knight and Wolf aren’t notably stronger than the characters immediately below them on the tier list. The decision to place them in their own tier was largely due to the fact that while there were a large number of characters proposed as the third best in the game, these two were unambiguously listed as the best. While Wolf’s peaks have been extremely high, featuring wins at nationals including Smash and Splash 3 and Evo 2017, Meta Knight’s more consistent placements and numerous top players such as Boringman, Emukiller, Yung Quaff, and Tealz led the panelists to place Meta Knight over Wolf as the best character in the current PM meta.”

    Sabre on Falco:

    “Falco has dropped six spots from the previous tier list, in large part due to a lack of results over the last year. The Melee veteran has mostly lacked top level representation in 2017, with Melee players like Westballz not entering PM majors. And while Silver has been the character’s primary top player, he recently decided to place Falco on the back-burner while he focuses on other characters. Falco’s oppressive neutral and strong combo game are offset by an exploitable short-distance recovery and a vulnerability to being comboed heavily due to his status as a fast-faller, both attributes cited by panelists in their decision to lower Falco on this edition of the tier list. In addition, many panelists argued that Falco’s strengths weren’t carried over as clearly from Melee to PM as his weaknesses were, reducing the overall theoretical strength of the character.”

    Sabre on DK:

    “Over the course of two tier lists, Donkey Kong has gone from being considered bottom five in the game to just outside of top ten, and this year his placement saw the largest boost of any character. The character’s brutal punish game has been at the forefront of the PM meta this year as ThundeRzReiGN has taken national after national, and while his placement is lowered by the fact that no other DK player has come close to replicating that degree of success, the emergence of players such as King Koney indicates that Donkey Kong might not be done rising through the tier list.”

    Sabre on Mewtwo:

    “Returning to a position on the tier list he hasn’t held since the days of 3.02, Mewtwo’s meta has evolved immensely over the last year, and with them has his results. Despite Frozen’s retirement from the game in late 2016, he still placed 5th at both Cashed Out and Smashadelphia this year, and Fuzz’s 3rd place finish at the Bigger Balc, followed by 5th at Low Tier City 5, blew the floodgates wide open for speculation on the character’s potential. With access to a strong combo game, a kill throw, and one of the best recoveries in the game, Mewtwo’s theoretical strengths more than match his results, perhaps Mewtwo’s true zenith has yet to be unlocked.”

    FlashingFire on Fox:

    “Fox was a rather controversial subject this time around. Panelists rated him as high as 3rd and as low as 18th during initial voting, and there are valid points on both ends of the spectrum. On one hand, Fox has just about everything you’d want in a character - high mobility, fast moves with low cooldown, lots of recovery mixups and ledge options, a non-committal projectile, good out-of-shield options, neutral tools that confirm into KO moves, a Shine, the list goes on and on. On the other hand, Fox representation has dropped off somewhat in recent months, and those who do still play the character haven’t managed to claim the results that he should be capable of achieving on paper. A notable exception can be found in Lucky’s Bigger Balc performance, where he defeated HF Neon, iLoveBagelz, Strong Bad and iPunchKidsz to reach 13th at the 3rd-largest Project M event of all time. Lucky also placed 7th at Shuffle: Battle of the Midwest, but outside of that it’s difficult to find any strong national results from Fox mains. At Low Tier City 4, Bobby Frizz and BaconPancakes (who was then still largely a Fox player) both placed 9th, but that was in 2016, before the last PM tier list came out. Furthermore, it is a sobering truth that Fox is much easier to combo to death off of one mistake than most characters, and in a game with as many matchups as Project M has, it can be difficult to maintain the consistency required to avoid that fate. In the end, Fox has dropped five spots to a still-respectable 8th place, and he awaits a player who can demonstrate how to wield his tools to the fullest in today’s metagame.”

    FlashingFire on Sonic:

    “Sonic, more than almost any other character, continues to see significant development in his character-specific techniques and punish game. His ten-spot rise on this iteration of the tier list has been driven by a potent combination of practice and theory. Sonic has robust representation from players such as Aion, Gooley, GabPR, and JFyst, the last of whom made 9th at Supernova 2 and took ThundeRz to a nail-biting game 5 at The Bigger Balc. Furthermore, the future looks bright for the blue blur, as Shockbound and other tech fiends spread awareness of techniques like the RASCAL that add truly scary combo potential to a character that already boasts unparalleled speed, consistent throw combos, and lethal edgeguarding tools.”

    Pooch on Ice Climbers:

    “With the arrival of Techboy on the national scene, accompanying the already established Phresh, the Ice Climbers have ascended an incredible 12 spots since the previous tier list. With an impressively potent punish game, rivaling that of their Brawl iteration, the Climbers have shown themselves to be more than capable of holding their own, even in match ups often considered to be disparaging. Both Techboy and Phresh had impressive runs at Smash N Splash 3 and Supernova 2, the former having them share the stage in top 8, with Phresh coming out on top in the ditto in loser’s quarters for a 4th place finish overall. Techboy returned the favor to score a top 8 spot in loser’s at Supernova, though, finishing out at 7th at that event after just falling short in an incredibly grueling five game set against DVD. These two champions have demonstrated the potential of the Ice Climbers in a national bracket, and they don’t show any signs of slowing down. With such a brutal punish game, and a neutral game that is getting sharper and more polished as their players push the character’s meta, it wouldn’t be shocking to see more major top 8 brackets hosting this slippery duo.”

    Sabre on Charizard:

    “Charizard’s rise in this edition of the tier list should come as no surprise considering the appearance of Kycse and Zen in PMRank 2016 and the recent emergence of Dingo at Smashadelphia 2017 and Blacklisted 3. Kycse in particular has spearheaded the fiery lizard’s results, listing an impressive 4th place finish at Smashadelphia and 9th at Blacklisted 3, and defeating the likes of Darc, Emukiller, Jose V, Frozen, and Twisty in 2017. Charizard’s strong punish game both on and off the stage led panelists to believe that his strengths on paper matched up with his results.”

    Yata! On ROB:

    “ROB has experienced the greatest decline of any character of the cast, falling a massive 20 places from his previous 12th place, a placement which came on the heels of the performances of ROB mains in 3.6b rather than 3.6 full—DrinkingFood in particular earned a second place finish at Low Tier City 3. However, LTC3 was two years ago, and much of the panel came to the conclusion that ROB’s nerfs between versions as well as the expanding metagame surrounding the character have not been kind to him. With a limited neutral game predicated upon item spawning and an edgeguard-focused punish game in a world of consistent kill confirms, ROB strikes many as lackluster. Adding onto that, ROB mains have not succeeded in putting up results resembling a top 12 character in recent times, with the peak performance being that of Sneez at Olympus nearly a year ago. Whether the character can rise to his former glory is to be determined, but in the present metagame ROB is underwhelming."

    This year, the Project M scene has had some of the largest tournaments in its history, and can one can say with confidence that PM has developed its own unique meta. With continued character diversity at every tournament, and brackets rampant with upsets, it's likely this tier list could change dramatically in the future. No matter what happens, it's clear that the PM community will continue to support the game through all of it, and we look forward to seeing what the future of the game looks like

    What do you think about the list? What characters would you adjust, and what kind of changes do you expect to see in the future?

    Major thanks to Boiko and Sabre for working with us to publish the list, and the rest of the PMBR for helping with the process.
     
    #1 L Pag, Sep 9, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2017
Contributor
L_Pag is a Project M player hailing from New York. Originally starting his writing career with Mind over Meta, a series of articles devoted to exploring the meta of Project M, he has since become an avid writer, tournament organizer, and player. Follow him on twitter @L_Pag_.
Sub-Categories: This article has no sub-categories

Comments

Discussion in 'News' started by L Pag, Sep 9, 2017.

    1. Soft Serve
      Soft Serve
      good stuff

      **** the haters its good enough
    2. Boiko
      Boiko
      Not a single person in the PMBR is completely satisfied with the list.

      But 21 people believed it was good enough for publication. Should say something.
      Vashimus, AceGamer, Kazooie56 and 8 others like this.
    3. TooLazyToPutSpaces
      TooLazyToPutSpaces
      Here's the differences from last tier list in parens

      1. Meta Knight (+1)
      2. Wolf (+2)

      3. Mewtwo (+7)
      4. Diddy Kong (-3)
      5. Wario (+3)
      6. Mr. Game & Watch (-1)
      7. Sheik (-1)

      8. Fox (-5)
      9. Captain Falcon (-2)
      10. Sonic (+10)
      11. Donkey Kong (+14)
      12. Snake (-1)
      13. Zero Suit Samus (-4)
      14. Peach (+3)
      15. Lucas (-1)
      16. Ice Climbers (+12)

      17. Marth (-4)
      18. Lucario (-3)
      19. Ness (=)
      20. Mario (+4)
      21. Toon Link (-3)
      22. Falco (-6)
      23. Pikachu (+4)
      24. Charizard (+8)

      25. Ike (-4)
      26. Luigi (=)
      27. Samus (-4)
      28. Ivysaur (+1)
      29. Roy (-7)
      30. Link (+1)
      31. Squirtle (-1)
      32. ROB (-20)

      33. Yoshi (+5)
      34. King Dedede (+2)
      35. Pit (+4)
      36. Jigglypuff (-3)
      37. Ganondorf (-2)
      38. Zelda (-4)
      39. Olimar (-2)

      40. Kirby (=)
      41. Bowser (=)
    4. PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
      PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
      #banzard

      10zard
      Red Ryu and Soft Serve like this.
    5. Skeeter Mania
      Skeeter Mania
      Could I ask what makes MK and Wolf S tier material?

      Like, what makes them so good?
    6. JesseMcCloud
      JesseMcCloud
      Where's Knuckles?

      Oh, wait.

      Yeah... :(
    7. Saproling
      Saproling
      Actually not too awful gj.
    8. Dark_Knight_X1
      Dark_Knight_X1
      Wolf and Mewtwo both top 3 PogChamp
      Soft Serve likes this.
    9. SuperSmasherFan
      SuperSmasherFan
      "Project M is dead," they said.
      :smirk: "Your wrong and really oblivious" I said
    10. Sabreknight
      Sabreknight
      Hey! MK is probably the best tech chaser in the game with a brutal ability to keep opponents in a disadvantage state and a guaranteed kill confirm on the entire cast via uthrow-cape. He also has a very strong neutral thanks to his speed, good frame data, and strong crouch-cancel options, and has a very difficult recovery to deal with.
      Wolf has a very oppressive neutral thanks to being able to waveland out of his lasers, and a strong advantage state/combo game that ends in powerful kill moves like his sweetspot fair and side-b. His recovery is weaker, but he's one of the hardest characters in the game to kill off the top and the added threat of his shield pressure thanks to having a shine makes up for it.

      In addition, both characters had strong results over the last year, proving that their strengths translate well from theory to a tournament setting. The reason they were in their own tier was because almost the entire panel put them as the top two in the game, but there was far less agreement on who was directly below them, which to us indicated a gap in the overall perceived strength of those characters when aggregated from all the panelists.

      Hopefully that helps!
      -Sabre
      Soft Serve and Dark_Knight_X1 like this.
    11. <π
      Great write up. Definitely a scene I want to keep an eye on even if I can't play.

      I'm shocked you didn't call S tier A+ after reading about the divide and logic behind the choice. Espeacially since you went with an A- tier this year.
    12. Bob
      Bob
      Project M is dead. It's unfortunate, but without official support and continuation, it simply cannot maintain it's existence, as a tower divided cannot stand.

      It's evidenced by lack of major tournament support (particularly in EVO) and this pitiful comments section.

      Project M was a legendary game. But after the team's disbandment, that statement will only exist in the past-tense.
    13. Zoa
      Zoa
      Just getting back into PM recently, so this is good to know about the current meta. Though I'm confused. I thought Lucario was much better? Is there just a lack of representation at high level aside from IPK?
    14. Sempai
      Sempai
      You just made a lot of people happy
    15. TDK
      TDK
      Poor Zelda.
    16. Kaze Arashi
      Kaze Arashi
      I knew sonic had top tier potential
      iiXFlame likes this.
    17. Kaze Arashi
      Kaze Arashi
      Wait, for sonic...what's RASCAL?
    18. slowbruh
      slowbruh
      i didn't know wolf was so good
      iiXFlame likes this.
    19. bboss
      bboss
      yes finally
      mewtwo is so high tho
    20. pikadrewuniverse
      pikadrewuniverse
      Hey any PM news is good news, glad to see the community still hard at work.
      bboss and Soft Serve like this.
    21. Soft Serve
      Soft Serve
      cool story
    22. SuperSmasherFan
      SuperSmasherFan
      Hold on now, PM may lack evo, but it has and is not limited too:
      Smash n splash
      Midwest mayhem
      Blacklisted
      Which are all growing well. Not to mention, the agruement that, 'Project M has no big tournaments, therefore it is dead.", is honestly wrong 100%. Melee for example, spent 4-5 years or so with a super small fan base and very little 'majors,' so why can't Project M take that same time to grow up? Even smash 64 is getting more and more popular and seeing even more tourneys 20 or so years after its release! Project M is not dead, it's just small. All things are small, Project M too will grow up and I really do see a future for it.
    23. 4tlas
      4tlas
      Also all the PM players use Discord now, and before that it was Skype, and before *that* it was Smashboards. The game has been "dead" on Smashboards since before PMDT disbanded. This comments section does not reflect on PM's "ded-ness" in any way.
    24. Sempai
      Sempai
      The last 2 comments are spot on. I was sitting there watching in 2011 when we had 100 player tournaments in MELEE, and look at us now. We can end this discussion now.
      R3D3MON and Boiko like this.
    25. redcometchar
      redcometchar
      I'm really not so sure basing these things on results is the best strategy. I don't really understand the logic. Can someone give me an explanation? Just because fewer people play fox, he is now worse than sheik? I must be missing something.
      Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    26. Bob
      Bob
      Project M and Melee's roles got swapped; Melee entered the mainstream, Project M left it. The difference is that Project M is "illegal" (which is mostly responsible for it's current situation), and, while major tournament hosters may enjoy the game and respect it's merits, the benefits Nintendo's sponsorship provides from a business standpoint far outweigh those of Project M's. While removing Project M's only consequence are the stages of grieving, ignoring Nintendo whilst they use their IP could result in no Smash Bros. at all.

      It's not that Project M lacks the potential to make a resurgence; legally, it can't.
      The team's discontinuation is the fatal blow.

      Also, those tournaments you listed were either solely Smash, or "growing" (which is but a polite way of saying "insignificant").

      For what it's worth, know that this doesn't come from a place of arrogance etc. I myself don't enjoy the concept of abruptly cancelled projects, and even for those who wanted Project M to die, in many ways, it never truly got to live.
      Red Stache likes this.
    27. Kaeldiar
      Kaeldiar
      "Released Aerial Spin Charge Action Leniency" In a nutshell, you aerial down-b charge on someone's face, let go, then get a sort of a buffer window. It does a lot of damage and can lead to crazy combos. Check out Shockbound's reddit post for a longer description and a gif of its awesomeness in practice. And another one
      AceGamer likes this.
    28. Kaeldiar
      Kaeldiar
      "you know how in Melee fox beats top tiers but can get cheesed by mid tiers and even struggles against like Samus? But Sheik kinda bodies every melee mid tier? Now imagine a game where every character is that cheesy mid tier that can **** with fox but loses to Sheik. Also the trend of results at the highest level favors Sheik not fox." -reslived
      AceGamer likes this.
    29. Bob
      Bob
      That's probably the most forced acronym I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot.
      kynlem likes this.
    30. SaltyKracka
      SaltyKracka
      Project: M(etaknight)
    31. Red Ryu
      Red Ryu
      These are interesting changes, I'd disagree with the S tier part but I guess I'm not really too deep in data to look into the difference between that and A tier.
    32. CrusherMania1592
      CrusherMania1592
      Wolf got a push and Bowser got buried eh?

      What a time to be alive
    33. BoCoi144
      BoCoi144
      Wow. Diddle Kang lost his 1st place.
      Feel bad for him. :(
    34. XenoFalcon95
      XenoFalcon95
      I think the reason for Falco's drop is almost fully based on lack of representation and he can be better than where he is now.
    35. MERPIS
      MERPIS
      where in gods name is the 4th ssb4 tier list?
    36. LunchmanJ
      LunchmanJ
      Are any characters unviable for winning a national?
    37. Kaeldiar
      Kaeldiar
      D and below would SERIOUSLY struggle to. C is possible, but not likely. Luigi, Ivy, Squirtle, and Roy have placed 1st or 2nd.
      LunchmanJ likes this.
    38. Tundrastorming
      Tundrastorming
      so basically meta knight is still meta knight from brawl is that what you're saying?
    39. Nohbl
      Nohbl
      The fact that this tier list includes more than a little bit of theorizing and is not purely results based makes it contentious and its validity arguable. :GCStart::GCLT::GCRT::GCA::GCY:

Share This Page

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?