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The Problems With Kirby

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Soooo you may or may not be aware that I play this game. I hate it; it's undeniably a completely imbalanced game with a childish, dumb community. However, I do play the game and in any game I play, I take great pride in studying and learning as much about my character as possible. (See: Blazblue and Noel) I think it's funny that a lot of people don't realize JUST how bad a character Kirby is, when compared to other characters. Don't get me wrong, he's far from unplayable, but the amount of misconceptions about him is hilarious. I remember one time I had an argument with Lamb Chops (who was at the time, one of the best Snake players) who said Kirby counters Snake because he "runs circles around him." Now I respect the guy, but that was just inconceivable to me! I think I've been playing the character longer than most, maybe not the longest but I'm up there. I'm definitely not the best Kirby player but I think that I've studied the character in great detail more than other any other people have. Thankfully the community is starting to come to it's senses, as you've seen Kirby has been steadily plummeting on the tier list. I'm not entirely sure of his exact placement now, but in my humble opinion I think Kirby's rightful place would be right near the bottom of middle tier. In this post I will outline Kirby's major problems and detail them accordingly. This thread is not to bash Kirby! I love my character, if I didn't I would have switched to Meta Knight long ago.

I also think it’s worth mentioning that you might not know me, I’m not on the list of top 5 players with their character (YET TRUMP AND XALTIS ARE ON THEIR RESPECTIVE LISTS? LOL REALLY SMASHBOARDS?) lol but seriously, I have players that can at least vouch for my ability to play Kirby at a high level. (Where you at, Seibrik?) I don’t really enter tournaments for the following reasons. This thread is not to john is not intended to john about my character, just to clear up some misconceptions. So without further ado...

Kirby is light as hell
Well I'm sure this seems like a given! Kirby is the 4th lightest character in the game, only underneath Squirtle, Game & Watch and Jiggs. The implications of this are obvious; Kirby gets killed earlier than most other characters do. Even with good DI, Kirby gets killed by Snakes uptilt at a mere 99%. Having good DI when playing Kirby is dire, but not everything is expected. Think back, there's been more than a few times where you've gotten hit with an attack and DI'd very poorly, putting you in a bad position. An unexpected dsmash from Meta Knight will gladly send you horizontally! These kinds of things are FATAL for Kirby. It's not outside of the realm of possibly to get killed at 40-50% by attacks near the edge of the stage, or god forbid you get hit with something on the Smashville platform at one of the sides! Brinstar? Good luck. But wait! Characters like Meta Knight and Pikachu are just as light as Kirby is! (One unit of weight heavier than Kirby, actually.) Why aren't they bad too? Well the difference between a light character like Kirby and light characters like MK and Pikachu is that...

Kirby has no killing ability
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT? But I get hit with Kirby's fsmash all the time! That **** is broken! Maaaan... it kills me on the inside every time I hear this. Before I start, I want to detail Kirby's (arguably) PRACTICAL kill attacks. A lot of people seem to think that Kirby is some kind of walking killmachine when their character is at high percents... and he is! If you're an idiot.
PRACTICAL
Fsmash*
Bair (100% fresh)
Air hammer*

NOT SO PRACTICAL
Dsmash (fastest smash, surprisingly hitboxes above his head and to the side)
Upthrow (at hiiiigh percentages)

Note that Kirby CAN kill with other attacks. Upair and upsmash will kill at moderately high percentages, but are definitely not a go-to kill attacks. Inhale can SETUP gimps/suicides, but it's NOT practical. Fair is a terrible attack, but more on that later. Ground hammer can punish things like missed tether grabs or general stupidity, but it's important to realize that THE KEY WORD IS PRACTICAL. Anyway now that that's been made clear, let's look at these in more depth.

FORWARD SMASH IS NOT A GOOD ATTACK. Go back and think about all the times you have gotten hit by fsmash. You were airdodging to the ground, right? STOP AIRDODGING TO THE GROUND. You will get hit. Stop trying to space random aerials at high percentages. You will get hit. Fsmash is only a threat to stupid people. Good players will get hit from time to time, but there is nothing special about Kirby's fsmash that makes it a significant threat to people who are playing smart! It doesn't have incredible speed like Fox's upsmash, or a deceptive hitbox like Snake's uptilt. Hell, do you want to know the sad truth? It's not even that strong of an attack. It's made for punishing people after conditioning them to do certain things, but it's not a rare occurrence for heavier characters to LIVE after getting hit by it. It's slow (comparably), it's easy to tell if you've made the mistake and are about to get hit by it, and thus easily DI'd. I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you that fmash is a BAD attack, but it's not NEARLY as good as you're thinking it is.

Bair is easily Kirby's best attack, and thus the attack you will be using most often. Meaning, IT WILL NEVER BE FRESH. It has surprising power when it's fresh, it's comparably fast, but the only time you will be killing with this attack is shortly after you've died. For your viewing pleasure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmnSqLrJAfA

I won't bore you with the details of air hammer. This is a decent attack one you have conditioned people to airdodge once you get near them. I've probably done it to you before! In fact, I have an entire combo video about this. I airhammer, you airdoge the first hit and the second hits you. The second hit has a horizontal trajectory and decent power behind it. The cons of this are obvious, though. Hammer is an intensely slow attack, the startup is long enough to visually confirm and punish, and as stated above, intelligent players should not feel threatened. Also as previously stated, this attack is easy to confirm that you've made the mistake of airdodging, and thus easily DI'd.
So where is gimping? Kirby has 6 jumps and a very unique drill/spike (Dair) that surely screws over characters while they try to recover. I suppose this would be viable, but........

Kirby is slow as all hell
I wish more people would realize this! Kirby is not actually one of the slowest moving characters in the game, he's actually 11th slowest and has the 6th slowest falling speed, these factors when combined with Kirby's ridiculously small range makes it surprisingly hard to "gimp" other characters. In fact, those factors considered, Kirby is actually one of the easiest characters to gimp in the game. Indeed, he DOES has 6 jumps, all very short, but believe it or not, Kirby's ABSOLUTE WORST POSITION in any match is "returning to the stage."

For example, both Meta Knight and Dedede are as slow as or slower than Kirby respectively. When trying to recover, you’re generally going to try to attack these characters off stage, either forcing them to waste more jumps or to use one of their recovery attacks. Obviously you must be weary; these two characters (along with many others) still have the ability to attack you off the stage while they are recovering, MK being a good example of an especially dangerous character to follow off stage. So it’s 50/50, you have to use your better judgment and decide when is the best situation to attack a character off stage. I feel like this is not the case when Kirby is the one trying to recover. Kirby is a slow moving target, with no particular long range or threatening attacks that you need to worry about while he’s recovering. If you’re under him, Dair will be your biggest worry, but its horizontal hitbox likely pales in comparison to any attack you plan on using. Upair is a good attack I like to use if my open is above me, it’s vertical hitbox is decent and can usually catch people off-guard (such is Kirby). Fair is much too slow and laggy to use while recovering, and Bair, while quick and seemingly his best option while return to stage, is still easily spaced and punished by a large amount of the cast. Kirby’s absolute best option while trying to recover is just that… try to recover. I’m not saying that in every recovery situation Kirby should be on the defensive, silly one-way thinking like that is what gets people read and punished hard, but the risk of attacking your opponent while recovering is often much higher than the reward, because……….

Kirby trades... everything
Quick! Think of all of the characters in Brawl without (respectable) projectiles. Now, of those characters, remove all of the ones with large, powerful or disjointed hitboxes (DK, Marth) and/or above average mobility in the air or ground (Jiggs, MK) You are left with Kirby. (And like Ganondorf I guess, but his hitboxes are generally bigger). These things aren’t what inherently make Kirby a bad character, but I think all these things combined are what give Kirby one of his biggest problems. All of Kirby’s attacks are extension of his body; specifically his feet. This, along with being the prime example of a short range character, result in Kirby trading attacks… very often. The very act of attacking another character puts Kirby at a risk significantly higher than, for example, Ike attacking with Fair. Many other characters in the cast without weapons are forced to rely on spacing their shorter range hitboxes, but Kirby doesn’t have the added benefit of high mobility that characters like Wario or Yoshi do.

So, well… a lot of characters still trade attacks also! What’s the point? You see, Kirby’s problems seem to work in tandem with each other. Not only does Kirby have low mobility and range (meaning a relatively high amount of trading attacks), but when taking into account his low weight, trading attacks is something that is rarely beneficial. For example, trade attacks up to 100% with a Snake player; while both characters are at high percentages Kirby is in significantly more danger. I believe that all of these reasons combined is what resulted in the Kirby metagame. I’ve said before that Bair is undoubtedly one of Kirby’s best attacks, quick and comparably longer ranger than his other attacks. While you’ll still find that you’re trading attacks with Bair very often, it’s a considerably lower rate than many of his other attacks, which is what leads to………

Kirby is a very straightforward character / has problems approaching
Kirby is an ANOMALY of a character. He is hilariously slow, has no range on any of his attacks and thus must approach (slowly.) However, due to his moveset, his only practical way of approaching is backwards! Surely you can see the problem in this. A character that MUST approach but who’s best options are facing the opposite direction; it is quite literally “backwards.”

Note here I’d like to mention a lot of people may want to comment that I’m wrong when I say Kirby MUST approach. “Be patient, let them come to you.” Well yes, you’ll see in that the next paragraph. Unfortunately, the only reason other characters approach Kirby is through poor foresight and low patience from the person controlling them. Like it or not, a Falco on the other side of Final Destination NEVER. HAS. TO. APPROACH. They will though, why? The player is impatient. But I’m writing this based on that simple truth; most characters with projectiles do not ever need to approach Kirby in a match… ever.

People often chastise me for "running away," when little do they realize that Kirby's absolute best position on any stage is an opponent approaching him on level ground while he is facing in the opposite direction. If there were a way to run backwards in the game, there would be less of a problem. As it stands now though, Kirby will likely be doing one of two things the entire match:
- Running towards you, shield-grab
- Running towards you, jumping up and slowly trying to space Bair

So... what's good about Kirby?
First and foremost I think that Kirby was made to be a bit different than other characters. He is neither rushdown nor is he a zoner. More than anything I think that Kirby benefits from conditioning his opponent to do certain things and punishing accordingly. I think he rewards players with the ability to read other people's intended actions, as many of his attacks are extremely slow but (arguably) powerful. Aerial hammer is the perfect example of this, as is inhale. Kirby also benefits from a player with impeccable spacing, as perfectly spaced Bairs are unpunishable except on perfect shield. Some other things that are worth mentioning...

- Great tilts: Kirby's tilts are godlike for his character. Often overlooked is Ftilt, which has amazing range and speed. Dtilt also has it's uses, I do wish that it poked shields, but oh well. Also has a decent trip rate. But the holy grail of all tilts, Kirby's uptilt is, in my opinion, one of the best and most useful non-kill attacks in the game. It's not particularly strong, but its speed, range, ability to juggle, negate, and its general practicality makes his uptilt one of the absolute best. Thank the lord for uptilt.

- Amazing dash attack: Again, this attack is often overlooked. Unrivaled in punishing spotdodges, this attack is also great on the edge of stages as it will move your opponent off the stage and into a tumble, often guaranteeing a hit if it's shielded. If it's spotdodged, it's also almost a guaranteed hit. Great attack in general.

- Command grab: Mentioned before, Kirby's inhale functions as a command grab, great after you condition opponents to shield or spotdodge as you are falling towards them (and they are expecting a bair). I won't make mention of its suicide ability, I think it's worthless at high level play. (Unless you manage to inhale Dedede off the stage, it is a guaranteed footstool.)

- Mixup from grabs in general: Aside from his inhale, his regular grabs are pretty amazing in themselves. They are clearly a bit larger than the rest of the cast, which is ironic because his arms are so tiny. I think his grabs, along with his command grab and his dash attack (which beats spotdodges) makes for great mixup in certain situations. For example, a Falco landing after his Side-B will usually try to shield or spotdodge, shielding will be beaten by grabs and inhale; spotdodging will be beaten by dash attack. Good range, good pivot grab, fairly short recovery makes Kirby’s grabs a pretty widely-accepted Pro.

- Good (yet predictable) vertical recovery, I guess: You can’t really deny his 6 jumps. Although they are very small and slow, he still has 6 of them. Recover horizontally is meh at best, but his vertical recovery, when taking final cutter into account, is amazing. Sadly due to the same reasons, his recovery is insanely predictable. Final cutter always goes up and never sweetspots the edge on its way up. A lot of people don’t realize this is super punishable. His cutlass IS one of his two ‘disjointed’ hitboxes (along with aerial hammer), but a quick shield and ledgegrab will force either an SD or lag from landing on the stage. It’s a double edged sword really, but I wouldn’t say that, in this particular case, the risk is greater than the reward. Everyone’s recover is generally risky but not all are as good as Kirby’s. (Unless your MK)


How can Kirby be better?
I've thought about this a lot, often have discussions with other people on ways Kirby could possibly be a better character without making him completely broken. These are just some of my thoughts; I don't expect everyone to agree.

- Give Kirby a good Fair: As stated above, Kirby has massive problems approaching. Facing someone with Kirby is already a dangerous position. His Fair is an awkward attack; three relatively slow hits that are not easily shorthopped and have quite a bit of lag. It is not recommended to be used while recovering, it’s far too slow. Aside from the occasional off the ledge surprise attack, or techchase after forward throw, Fair is NOT a great attack. I’m sure just about every character has an aerial that is seemingly useless, but when taking his approaching problems into account, it’s clear that he needs a useful Fair. My suggestion was to give Kirby his Fair from Smash64.

- A killing throw: Another one of Kirby’s problems is hard time landing kill attacks on characters (and the fact that even landing certain “kill” attacks will not kill, ever hit someone with Upsmash? Ugh) I think first I should make note that every single one of Kirby’s throws send the opponent upwards, instead of the direction of the throw. I think this makes it obvious that Kirby was INTENDED to dominate other characters in the air, which is ironic because his aerials are lackluster when compared to characters like MK or ZSS, not to mention his speed in the air is very low. Kirby’s grabs are amazing, and giving him a killing throw would solve his problems. His Upthrow is close, he can kill certain characters with it and generally high percentages. If this average kill percentage was made a little bit lower, I think he might actually be made a force to be reckoned with. It doesn’t have to be quite as strong as say, Ness or Lucas’s killthrows, but making Upthrow a reliable kill attack would be extremely beneficial.

- Increase air speed: Did you know Kirby, along with Jiggs were the fastest characters in the air in Smash64? Then in Melee he dropped to 4th to last, tied with Ganondorf. What’s up with that? I don’t expect Kirby to move as fast as Jiggs, or have the maneuverability as Wario, but increasing his airspeed by a bit would definitely make Kirby, you know, actually THREATENING in the air.

- Attack with disjointed hitbox: Wishful thinking, I know. Giving Kirby a disjointed hitbox, (I can’t think of anything they could use, maybe his Yo-Yo ability? Sorry Ness!) would probably drastically change his metagame. Why risk trading with Bair when something else is so safe? Well anyway, this would solve his short range and trading problems.

The verdict?
Kirby's a strange character. He's average to below average in everything. I think the intention was to make Kirby a great grappler at close ranges (inhale, good grabs), and a character that dominates in the air (all his throws send characters upwards). However, his air speed and range are counterintuitive and instead make it dangerous to be in the air against most characters. His ground grab game also pales in comparison to characters like Dedede or Diddy, and then there are just characters that he CANNOT APPROACH, like Olimar or Ice Climbers. So, while Kirby is a unique character, his flaws are too significant and prevalent. KIRBY IS NOT AN UPLAYABLE CHARACTER, but there are other characters that do things Kirby was intended to do WAY better than Kirby could ever hope to. Hell, there are other characters that do things Kirby was intended to do at an average level, and are still better. Don’t get me wrong, if you play stupid against a Kirby player you will get wrecked, but simply having the knowledge of his above flaws can be used instead of matchup experience, which is something that can’t be said about most characters.

TL;DR
Playing Kirby is like shooting yourself in both feet and entering a race. Kirby himself is like a car with square wheels.

Sorry about the typos, I’ll be editing this post to fix any I find. Also the entire above post were all my opinions.



But I ****ing love Kirby and I’ll play him until I die.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Kirby boards are dead for good reason.
 

t!MmY

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
5,122
Location
Oregon
NNID
t1mmy_smash
I remember one time I had an argument with Lamb Chops (who was at the time, one of the best Snake players) who said Kirby counters Snake because he "runs circles around him."
I lol'd.

in my humble opinion I think Kirby's rightful place would be right near the bottom of middle tier.
Agreed.
Kirby's uptilt is, in my opinion, one of the best and most useful non-kill attacks in the game.
The reason why U-tilt is so important for Kirby's game is because his foot is intangible on frames 4 - 10. This is a godsend for Kirby considering how easily his other attacks are beaten out or trade hits.
How can Kirby be better?
Yes, the things you listed would probably make Kirby better, but they'd also make him a much different character. In one way, I actually enjoy the flaws in Kirby since they provide a much more challenging experience. Also, having a flawed character will mean only people who like Kirby will stick with him and they will learn 'reading' and 'prediction' better with such a character. Yet, I completely agree that Kirby certainly needs a few things to keep him from being altogether overlooked and overshadowed.

- Give Kirby a good Fair:
While it's true Kirby would benefit from a better F-air, I think he needs a little more than that (see my suggestions, below). Getting his SSB-era F-air would be greatly appreciated (especially with low landing lag to set up for combos).

- A killing throw:
Very useful, though not completely necessary. I think U-throw could be a little stronger (it dosn't KO Snake until around the 200%+ mark).

I think first I should make note that every single one of Kirby’s throws send the opponent upwards, instead of the direction of the throw.
This has been around since N64 days. I think it was designed that way because Kirby getting someone off-stage quickly with a throw would be too powerful. It's just funny because that's true of every character in SSB (especially Pikachu) yet Kirby was the one that was held back. It's also odd that they nerfed his off-stage game in Melee but still didn't give him any 'normal' throws.

It [u-throw] doesn’t have to be quite as strong as say, Ness or Lucas’s killthrows
Yes, it does. Otherwise, don't bother.

- Increase air speed:
This would be extremely helpful. His air speed (and ground speed!) were both decent in SSB. It didn't break him, it didn't make him OP, it just made him useable. I've grown accustomed to his slow speed due to my years of Melee (and Brawl), so I could go either way on this. Though I will say Kirby is much more fun when he can move around without feeling like he has jello in his shoes.

- Attack with disjointed hitbox:
Giving anyone more disjointed hitboxes would make anyone better. I feel this would be 'making him better for the sake of making him better'. However... if the Final Cutter were buffed then he would have a good disjoint to utilize. His Hammer could still use a few tweaks.

Here are some things that would be helpful changes, but don't abruptly change the character:

Faster start-up on Aerial attacks
They should all be around 6-frames to match his B-air. The only exception is Kirby's N-air which should be 3-frames. Kirby loses the range game, he shouldn't also lose the speed game. Not surprisingly this makes his F-air go from 'meh' to 'decent'.

Intangible Feet
Kirby's B-air can theoretically be used to fend off Meta Knight since it hits on frame 6 (the same frame as Meta Knight's F-air) and has similar range. The problem is that ever time Kirby puts his feet out, Meta Knight (and other characters) can space twice the distance and win the distance game. With intangible feet, the risk-reward balances out for Kirby and he can go 'toe-to-toe' with other characters. (This can be seen with U-tilt, as I mentioned earlier).

Safe Jabs
Kirby's Jab dishes out so little HitStun that even if you skillfully use it to interrupt the opponent's attack, it's more than likely still going to buffer their attack (plus give frame-advantage to the opponent on top of it). This means that if Marth is going to U-special and Kirby hit's first, he will take a jab and Kirby takes a sweet-spot Dolphin Slash. His Jab-2 has the same problem, but at least has a few frames less disadvantage (still giving the opponent the advantage though). Kirby's Vulcan Jab can be punished after successfully trapping someone in it and pushing them away, even while holding Shield in hopes to protect yourself frame-1 (Meta Knight can D-tilt, and Marth gets F-smash Tippers).

Decent Special Attacks
Kirby's Special Attacks would be decent if they didn't take twelve days to start and a fortnight to finish. Faster start-up on his Inhale for instance would make it more likely to catch someone sitting in their shield before they decide to Jump-Cancel into something nasty and hit Kirby while he's opening his mouth. If his special attacks are suppose to be slow (no idea why) they should be given something to make up for it, such as Armor Frames for his Stone transformation. His Final Cutter would benefit from Intangibility and\or hitting on frame 5 to give him a reliable OoS option and a usable disjoint.

Forget it, just give him his Hats!
I think I could forgive Sakurai for all the drawbacks of Kirby as long as I got the Hats and Abilities that make his games so fun! Beam Kirby, Fighter Kirby, Hammer Kirby, Ninja Kirby, Fire Kirby, Stone Kirby, Sword Kirby, Yo-Yo Kirby (and give him his UFO\Mic\Crash for his Final Smash)!
 

A1lion835

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 7, 2008
Messages
2,844
Location
Lurking the Kirby Social thread with my rock buds.
I agree almost completely with the OP, though you do overrate dash attack a bit. It's good for punishing spotdodges and when the opponent is chilling next to the edge, but otherwise smart people will just shield and punish, or at the very worst DI out of the final hit. Kirby belongs at the bottom of the mid-tier (like you said), but he could definitely be bumped up with just a few boosts. I'm thinking a faster, slightly stronger fsmash without the god-awful "HUUU!!" which is just code for "HEY BRO IMMA FSMASH YOU DON'T DI IT K", a more practical attacking up-b, SOME intangibility on feet (t1mmy's suggestion), not-laughable air/ground/everywhere speed...oh, and get fix his trash nair. I swear, the only times I use it are when I'm sandbagging or fixing phantom lag in between an opponent's stocks. Sounds like kinda a lot, but it's just five pretty simple things.

A few "its/it's" problems and some minor spelling detracted from my reading experience, but that's because I'm nitpicky.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
I see. So how are you guys doing oos?










Oh.

I probably should've mentioned in the OP that a good portion of the community of Kirby players don't add much to any discussion lol. Oh well. Ooh and thanks Tims and A1lion, I'll sure to reply later. Heading to sleep now.
 

BlueXenon

Smash Lord
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I agree with you. But I think Kirby would be better as a low tier. I'm sure that would make Kirby mains happy because they can win with him in low tier tournaments.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
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I see. So how are you guys doing oos?










Oh.

I probably should've mentioned in the OP that a good portion of the community of Kirby players don't add much to any discussion lol. Oh well. Ooh and thanks Tims and A1lion, I'll sure to reply later. Heading to sleep now.
Well send any players my way, I can't travel OoS cuz I'm in a naval base, with a 300-mile travel restriction while in student status. :awesome:

Also, that collective statement applies to a range of characters between those that aren't bad enough to be completely unviable, and those that are good enough to have one to two players winning money OoS.

Just cuz you hit a plateau with Kirby doesn't mean he's a bad character. Some of us have stuff we need to work on and we're still doing decent at worst. :troll:


Also:
Soooo you may or may not be aware that tomatoes are fruit. I hate them; it's undeniably a completely disgusting fruit with a reddish, chewy pulp. However, I do eat tomatoes and in any fast food I go to, I take great pride in asking for and using as much ketchup as possible. (See: McDonald's and Popeye's, etc) I think it's funny that a lot of people don't realize JUST why tomatoes are fruit, when compared to other fruit. Don't get me wrong, it's far from obvious, but the amount of misconceptions about it is hilarious. I remember one time I had an argument with Triple R (who was at the time, one of the best tomato experts) who said tomatoes were vegetables because they "look like vegetables on the inside." Now I respect the guy, but that was just inconceivable to me! I think I've been eating ketchup longer than most, maybe not the longest but I'm up there. I'm definitely not the best tomato expert but I think that I've studied the fruit in great detail more than any other people have. Thankfully the community is starting to come to it's senses, as you've seen tomatoes have been steadily plummeting on the vegetable lists. I'm not entirely sure of his exact placement now, but in my humble opinion I think tomato's rightful place would be right near the bottom of fruit lists and out of vegetable lists. In this post I will outline tomato's major problems and detail them accordingly. This thread is not to bash tomatoes! I love my ketchup, if I didn't I would have switched to barbecue sauce long ago.

I also think it’s worth mentioning that you might not know me, I’m not on the list of top 5 chefs with their food (YET JAMIE OLIVER AND GORDON RAMSEY ARE ON THEIR RESPECTIVE LISTS? LOL REALLY ZIMBIO?) lol but seriously, I have people that can at least vouch for my ability to talk food at a high level. (Where you at, Twinkie?) I don’t really enter tournaments for the following reasons. This thread is not to john is not intended to john about my tastes, just to clear up some misconceptions. So without further ado...

Tomato is light as hell
Well I'm sure this seems like a given! Tomato isn't even the 10th best source for vitamins in the fruit kingdom. The implications of this are obvious; tomato gets eaten faster than most other fruits do. Even with good farming, tomatoes get filled by mother nature up to a mere 10% daily value of potassium. Having good dieting when eating tomatoes is dire, but not everything is expected. Think back, there's been more than a few times where you've gotten a salad with tomatoes and dieted very poorly, putting you in a heavier position. An unexpected intake of .3g of fat will gladly send your belly horizontally! These kinds of things are FATAL for humans. It's not outside of the realm of possibly to get stuffed of 32% daily value of vitamin K by tomatoes near the edge of the burger, or god forbid you get hit with something on the lines of spaghetti! You're italian? Good luck. But wait! Fruit like grapefruit and bananas are just as light as tomatoes are! (One unit of resourcefulness better than tomatoes, actually.) Why aren't they bad too? Well the difference between a light fruit like tomatoes and light fruit like grapefruit and bananas is that...

Tomatoes have no tropical history
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT? But I get hit with salads in the Caribbean all the time! That **** is broken! Maaaan... it kills me on the inside every time I hear this. Before I start, I want to detail tomato's (arguably) PRACTICAL history. A lot of people used to think that tomato was some kind of poisonous peach when their stems and leaves are... And they are! If you're an idiot.
TRUE
Montezuma's gardens*
Cortez (100% sailor)
Imported*

FALSE
Vegetable (surprisingly just leaves scientists with work and more pay)
Poisonous (at hiiiigh concentrations, but isn't everything poisonous this way?)

Note that tomatoes CAN kill with other substances. CO and nitrogen will kill at moderately high percentages, but are definitely not a go-to kill substance. Cyanide can SETUP deaths, but it's NOT practical. Anthrax is a terrible substance, but more on that later. Ground pepper can punish things like big noses or general stupidity, but it's important to realize that THE KEY WORD IS FALSE. Anyway now that that's been made clear, let's look at these in more depth.

CO IS NOT A GOOD KILLER. Go back and think about all the times you have read news on people dying from breathing it. They were nowhere near a plastic bag, right? STOP BREATHING INTO A PLASTIC BAG. You will get intoxicated. Stop trying to breathe into bags when anxious. You will get intoxicated. CO is only a threat to stupid people. Good people will get intoxicated from time to time, but there is nothing special about CO that makes it a significant threat to people who are living smart! It doesn't have incredible speed like Bruce Edwards Ivins' anthrax, or a deceptive killer like our cars' CO2. Hell, do you want to know the sad truth? It's not even that strong of a poison. It's made from used air after breathing in to get your blood cells to do certain things, but it's not a rare occurrence for people to LIVE after breathing it back in. It's slow (comparably), it's easy to tell if you've made the mistake and are about to get poisoned by it, and thus easily avoided. I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you that CO is a BAD killer, but it's not NEARLY as good as you're thinking it is.

Vitamin K is easily tomato's best nutritional value, and thus the fruit you will be eating most often. Meaning, IT WILL ALWAYS BE FRESH. It has surprising low fat when it's fresh, it's comparably fast, but the only time you will be eating this fruit is after you've gotten your salad or sandwich. For your viewing pleasure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdJTyrfFmtU

I won't bore you with the details of the video. This is a decent animation once you have conditioned people to cringe once you get near them. I've probably done it to you before! In fact, I have an entire combo video about this. I call you, you walk around the first corner and the second corner takes you to cringing people. The second corner has a mirror on the adjacent corner and a huge light behind us. The cons of this are obvious, though. Pranking is an intensely low joke, the startup is long enough to visually confirm and escape, and as stated above, intelligent people should look at the mirror before turning the corner and leave. Also as previously stated, this cringing is easy to confirm that you've made the mistake of falling for the prank, and thus easily troll work.
So where is poisoning? Tomato has poisonous stems/leaves and a very unique color (red) that surely screws over animals while they try to replenish nutrients. I suppose this would be viable, but........

Tomato is yucky as all hell
I wish more people would realize this! Tomatoes are not actually one of the best-tasting fruit in the world, they're actually still considered vegetables for culinary purposes and are part of the deadly nightshade family, these factors when combined with tomatoes' ridiculously vague flavor makes it surprisingly hard to "pass up" other fruit. In fact, those factors considered, tomatoes are actually one of the easiest ways to get poisoned accidentally while eating from the wild in the world. Indeed, they DO have their leaves and stems separated from the body, all very obvious, but believe it or not, tomato's ABSOLUTE WORST POSITION in any country is "plucked and eaten as is."

For example, both grapefruit and orange are as healthy as or healthier than tomatoes respectively. When hunted down in shops, you’re generally going to try to pick these fruit first, either forcing supermarkets to waste more tomatoes or to use them in some of their own dishes. Obviously you must be weary; these two fruit (along with many others) still have the ability to run out while they are restocking, grapefruit being a good example of an especially delicious fruit to disappear off markets sometimes. So it’s 50/50, you have to use your better judgment and decide when is the best situation to buy fruits and which. I feel like this is not the case when tomatoes are the one trying to sell off. Tomatoes are a slow-selling item, with no particular health benefits or nutritional values that you wish you'd worry about while they’re restocking. If you’re looking for vitamin K,spinach will be your biggest contender, but its vegetable state likely pales in comparison to any supplements you plan on taking. Centrum is a good supplement I like to take if my food isn't healthy enough, it’s daily value per pill is decent and can usually catch fruit lovers off-guard (such as tomato lovers). Dieting is much too slow and crappy to do while starving, and working out, while quick and seemingly the best option to stay healthy, does nothing for your body but condition it and burn fat/calories. Tomato’s absolute best use while eating is just that… being eaten. I’m not saying that in every culinary situation tomato should be on the dish, silly one-way thinking like that is what gets people kicked out of restaurants, but the cons of passing up on supplements while eating is often much higher than the pros, because……….

And then i got bored of converting your post.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
I'm sure he is, I haven't entered a Brawl tournament in nearly 3 years.
 

Triple R

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
1,261
Location
Hopkins, MN
I'm sure he is, I haven't entered a Brawl tournament in nearly 3 years.
Really? I didn't realize it's been that long. I just remember seeing videos of you, but it didn't seem that long ago. Like a year and a half? Maybe they were just friendlies?
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Yes, I still play friendlies from time to time.
 

DFEAR

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
5,582
Location
:190:
doesnt take the fact away that dc is a top 5 kirby rofl prolly top 2
 

t!MmY

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
5,122
Location
Oregon
NNID
t1mmy_smash
I'm thinking a faster, slightly stronger fsmash without the god-awful "HUUU!!" which is just code for "HEY BRO IMMA FSMASH YOU DON'T DI IT K"
A1, you really made my day with this post. XD
 

AfroQT

Smash Master
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
3,970
Location
Cave of Olmec
Are you serious DC? I will play you for any amount of money thats how free you are.

Wtf are you stupid you must be stupid to really think you are gonna beat me lol

Infact unless you are gonna bet 50+ dont even see me rofl, not playin brawl for some kids money.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
I'll throw down $50, I need some new jeans.
 

AfroQT

Smash Master
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
3,970
Location
Cave of Olmec
Nah it won't go down and even if it does i know DC he won't pay hes just like greenace.

Im sure hes just trolling because he knows his kirby would get ****inr aped free lol
I think i've made it further in tourney with kirby then DC ever has, and i've actually entered tournaments going only kirby lol.
 

DC

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
55
Uh I've never not paid anyone after losing a money match. Ask Xaltis and DJ Jack, we recently had some fun and insanely close $1 money matches. I think that proves you don't "know me."

The last time we played was before the first Apex, which was also the last time I entered a tournament. I'm glad you think I'm still bad, I love peoples' expressions after we've played in recent times, like Trump, 8bitman and ScaryLB.

I don't think you've ever placed anywhere in tournament with Kirby so I'm not entirely sure why you brought that up. Though since you did, I remember now that our tournament record against each other is still 1-0, me.

lol
 
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