Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Mocha]

Anyone know how to do that Dair -> Hydro Pump thing aMSa did off stage at 6:34? Been trying to do it ever since I saw a gif of someone doing it on here but I can't pull it off.

Edit: He does it again here at 2:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GznfHAXzz1Y

He tends to do it when he's really high off the top, so that he has time to do an up b after right away.

 

[MartinAW4]

He tends to do it when he's really high off the top, so that he has time to do an up b after right away.

Yeah, you need to be at least at the height of your double jump above the stage to make it to the ledge after a Dair. Or you can Dair at full jump height if you save your second jump.
Full jump Dair is actually pretty good for edgeguarding. You either get the Dair meteor for a downward kill or non-meteor Dair -> Fair to kill off the side, both of which kill at around 60-70%. And even if you miss the Dair, you can still make it back on stage.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

Hey,

I don't know if i'm in the good place to ask this, but my name was changed because it was considered inappropriate. Since I'm knew here, is there at least a possibilty to choose myself a newone ? 'Cause PeroBean... It makes no sense !

@martin : You can't full jump -> Dair and then second jump in the Wii U version. It's only possible in the 3DS. Why ? I have no clue, it's weird.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

Hey guys. No video to share, but wanted to show you all this Greninja character model I am working on for a Smash 4 project I am cooking up. Let me know what you think. Still a work in progress : )

 

[Spirst]

Hey,

I don't know if i'm in the good place to ask this, but my name was changed because it was considered inappropriate. Since I'm knew here, is there at least a possibilty to choose myself a newone ? 'Cause PeroBean... It makes no sense !

@martin : You can't full jump -> Dair and then second jump in the Wii U version. It's only possible in the 3DS. Why ? I have no clue, it's weird.

You'd need to ask an administrator and explain the issue. Try contacting the one who changed it.

You can full jump>dair in the Wii U version but only on certain stages. For example, it works fine in Battlefield but on FD/Omega variants, you can't do so. The IASA frames are the same in each I'm 99% sure so it's a thing with the bottom blastzones on FD/Omega being higher on the Wii U version compared to the 3DS.

 

[Ekans647]

So how did aMSa do that thing where he would shift his momentum in the air when using Water Shuriken? I think it's a B-reversal but I'm not sure how to do it.

 

[MartinAW4]

You'd need to ask an administrator and explain the issue. Try contacting the one who changed it.

You can full jump>dair in the Wii U version but only on certain stages. For example, it works fine in Battlefield but on FD/Omega variants, you can't do so. The IASA frames are the same in each I'm 99% sure so it's a thing with the bottom blastzones on FD/Omega being higher on the Wii U version compared to the 3DS.

Yeah, that would probably explain it. I know the blastzones on FD are smaller in WiiU, so since you barely live in the 3DS version, the reduced blastzones in WiiU cause you to die before you can jump.

So how did aMSa do that thing where he would shift his momentum in the air when using Water Shuriken? I think it's a B-reversal but I'm not sure how to do it.

Yeah, those were B-reversals and wavebounces.
B-reversal is done by jumping in one direction, pressing B and immediately afterwards, pressing the circle pad in the opposite direction.
Wavebounce is done by jumping with your back facing your opponent. Then pressing B and immediately afterwards pressing the circle pad towards your opponent.

 

[Ekans647]

Yeah, that would probably explain it. I know the blastzones on FD are smaller in WiiU, so since you barely live in the 3DS version, the reduced blastzones in WiiU cause you to die before you can jump.


Yeah, those were B-reversals and wavebounces.
B-reversal is done by jumping in one direction, pressing B and immediately afterwards, pressing the circle pad in the opposite direction.
Wavebounce is done by jumping with your back facing your opponent. Then pressing B and immediately afterwards pressing the circle pad towards your opponent.

Does it work with every character? Can you do it on the 3DS?

 

[MartinAW4]

Does it work with every character? Can you do it on the 3DS?

I don`t know if every character has a move they can B-reverse, but it definitely works on the 3DS since that`s the only version I play.

 

[Ekans647]

I don`t know if every character has a move they can B-reverse, but it definitely works on the 3DS since that`s the only version I play.

Is there a list I can find for characters that can B-reverse? Also do you use a modified control scheme to B-reverse, or can you B-reverse with the default?

 

[MartinAW4]

Is there a list I can find for characters that can B-reverse? Also do you use a modified control scheme to B-reverse, or can you B-reverse with the default?

I don`t think there is a list. Just ask around at the character boards you`re interested in. I`m sure they`ll know all the moves of their character that can be B-reversed. And yes, it can be done easily with the default controls.

 

[Ekans647]

I don`t think there is a list. Just ask around at the character boards you`re interested in. I`m sure they`ll know all the moves of their character that can be B-reversed. And yes, it can be done easily with the default controls.

Thanks. I'll definitely be practicng this.

So how do you preform the running Shadow Sneak? How useful is it?

 

[MartinAW4]

Thanks. I'll definitely be practicng this.

So how do you preform the running Shadow Sneak? How useful is it?

The timing is extremely strict. You have to press side B exactly at the start of your dash, the moment Greninja first touches the ground with his left leg. I still can`t do it consistently even at 1/4 speed.
But there is a way to make normal SS faster. Normally when you input SS during a dash, you enter a sliding animation that slows you down for about one second before you can start walking. However since you can SS out of shield, you can cancel your dash with shield and immediately transition to the walking SS, completely avoiding the slow sliding animation. It`s not as fast as running SS, but it`s easy to do consistently, so I prefer this version the most.

 

[mimgrim]

Does it work with every character? Can you do it on the 3DS?

All Special moves for all characters should be able to be B Reversed.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh wow, ten days without playing made me lose my ninja reflexes, I really can't get any combos right anymore. I need to readjust myself badly.

 

[PsychedelicSkullOfDoom]

@ Spirts : Oh thanks for the info, you're right. It doesn't work only on FDs it seems ! Luckily for me, I'm an adept of Battlefield.

 

[Sosuke]

they still haven't fixed Hydro Pump bouncing off the ledge

 

[FullMoon]

Okay, a list of things I need to do with Greninja:

- Remember that stage spikes exist and perform them.
- Learn how to U-Air Spike
- Learn to Perfect Pivot
- Learn how to control Greninja's movement
- Improve my control over Hydro Pump.

Things I need to do in general:

- Be less predictable
- Stop rolling too much.

Oh man I have a lot of work to do.

 

[AkashicSword]

Okay, a list of things I need to do with Greninja:

- Remember that stage spikes exist and perform them.
- Learn how to U-Air Spike
- Learn to Perfect Pivot
- Learn how to control Greninja's movement
- Improve my control over Hydro Pump.

Things I need to do in general:

- Be less predictable
- Stop rolling too much.

Oh man I have a lot of work to do.

When I finally get home. We can wifi to work out kinks

 

[FullMoon]

When I finally get home. We can wifi to work out kinks

Sure, why not? =P

 

[Kite0692]

Froggies, personal opinion rating these stages and why:

Duck Hunt
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat

I personally like Duck Hunt. I have never played in Delfino actually. Halberd seems like a good stage due to the low ceiling (Usmash and U throw kills). Lylat is not as bad as I though, I think Greninja can cross from side to side under the stage with SS, double jump and Hydro Pump (lol).

PS: Dtilt is freakin' good. I mean, you just have no idea how good it is.

 

[Lavani]

Pure hypothesis, as I have never played on Wii U:

Duck Hunt would likely be my preferred Greninja stage. It has no Z axis, which fixes whiff jank on several of our moves (fsmash, fair, ftilt, dsmash), and I personally enjoy the idea of stage knowledge being a beneficial factor; the bush and tree don't have their platforms in very obvious locations compared to the graphics.

Delfino I haven't developed an opinion on.

Halberd would depend on matchup; I'd take anyone there that has a harder time killing off the top than we do.

Lylat I'm a little iffy on considering the layout might negatively impact Water Shuriken, but I think I'd have to play on it to really decide.

Can our usmash hit from under Halberd/Lylat platforms?

Lylat is not as bad as I though, I think Greninja can cross from side to side under the stage with SS, double jump and Hydro Pump (lol).

PS: Dtilt is freakin' good. I mean, you just have no idea how good it is.

We can cross under FD like that, so I'd imagine we can with any stage.

Dtilt is love, utilt is life.

 

[Kite0692]

Can our usmash hit from under Halberd/Lylat platforms?

I think it doesnt hit, but I'm not sure.

There are several things I need to test (since I don't have a Wii u) like for example:

After a low % Uthrow, is it possible they dodge and touch the floor WHILE dodging? (am talking about an inmediate dodge after the throw). I don't think this work but I have to test it. The plan is to use Uthrow (lets say in 0%) and go for a Uair. If he dodges, you can Dair. Don't know, what do you think?

 

[Lavani]

After a low % Uthrow, is it possible they dodge and touch the floor WHILE dodging? (am talking about an inmediate dodge after the throw). I don't think this work but I have to test it. The plan is to use Uthrow (lets say in 0%) and go for a Uair. If he dodges, you can Dair. Don't know, what do you think?

Low percent landing traps after uthrow are definitely a thing, though I've never tried dair. If they airdodge the uair I usually fastfall>regrab or jab/utilt/dtilt>stuff.

 

[mimgrim]

Froggies, personal opinion rating these stages and why:

Duck Hunt
Delfino
Halberd
Lylat

I personally like Duck Hunt. I have never played in Delfino actually. Halberd seems like a good stage due to the low ceiling (Usmash and U throw kills). Lylat is not as bad as I though, I think Greninja can cross from side to side under the stage with SS, double jump and Hydro Pump (lol).

PS: Dtilt is freakin' good. I mean, you just have no idea how good it is.

Psst, I made a thread just for this.

http://smashboards.com/threads/greninja-stage-discussion-thread.389804/

 

[Lavani]

Apparently I haven't been getting alerts for this thread for awhile, I just noticed I recognize nothing on this page.

All Special moves for all characters should be able to be B Reversed.

It isn't actually a universal thing, but the only examples of specials that can't be B-reversed that I can tell you offhand are Mario's FLUDD and Bowser's upB.

Samus' Charge Shot also can't be B-reversed, but turnaround B is applicable. Go figure.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Psst. Guys. I made a crappy joke.

Greninja mains right after the nerf

It's only like
4 months later or something pffft
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anywave, even though it seemed pretty terribubble at first, we sure have adapted to that wave of change.

I don't know where I'm going with this.

Frogs.

Spoiler: frog

spooky it's a real frog not the ninja frog were you surprised?

 

[Mocha]

I never knew frogs could sound like a cat/baby. That's both cute and creepy at the same time xD

On a side note, some of those sound really pained and makes me want to smack those people :<

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I never knew frogs could sound like a cat/baby. That's both cute and creepy at the same time xD

On a side note, some of those sound really pained and makes me want to smack those people :<

Yeah. Pretty sure frogs only make those noises to deter predators, so most of those frogs are probably scared. :<

I was more so trying to use the title for the humorous effect, not the video .-.

 

[Mocha]

I was more so trying to use the title for the humorous effect, not the video .-.

I know, hehe. I mentioned this before, but I guess I was one of the few fortunate people who didn't try Greninja enough before the patch, so the changes aren't as glaring to me. Though from what I've understood, he got some of the most nerfs in the game?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I know, hehe. I mentioned this before, but I guess I was one of the few fortunate people who didn't try Greninja enough before the patch, so the changes aren't as glaring to me. Though from what I've understood, he got some of the most nerfs in the game?

Yeah. Pretty much the worse nerfs compared to everybody else from that patch. Strange because he wasn't even #1 before then either.

Oh whale, it's all in the past now.

 

[Lavani]

Greninja was by far the most hurt character coming from 1.0.0. Rosalina's the only character that came close to his nerf amounts, and even then she had further to fall/wasn't nerfed as severely/ended up finding secret buffs from some of her nerfs (reduced nair kb allowed it to combo into dash attack, for example).

I find it confusing because, like @ elusiveTranscendent said, he wasn't even #1 prepatch anyway. And then characters like Diddy actually got buffed...

But eh, yeah, a decent chunk of what Greninja got in terms of nerfs was deserved, and there were some buffs sprinkled in too (dsmash, shadow sneak). 1.0.0 usmash was legit one of the dumbest things ever and nobody sane could deny it.

 

[Mocha]

And the truly dedicated will be the ones to remain.

Greninja was the newcomer I was most hyped about ever since I saw his trailer. A character that is very different from my natural playstyle, but it's been a refreshing change. The more I play this game, the more I realize that I'm playing the characters I use for truly enjoying the characters, not how good or bad they are in the game.

@ Lavani Did any of his nerfs include reduction in damage by any chance? I noticed that a number of his moves do very little damage compared to other characters using the same moves, so I'm not sure if this was there before or not.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

But eh, yeah, a decent chunk of what Greninja got in terms of nerfs was deserved, and there were some buffs sprinkled in too (dsmash, shadow sneak). 1.0.0 usmash was legit one of the dumbest things ever and nobody sane could deny it.

Yeah. ^^

And the truly dedicated will be the ones to remain.

Greninja was the newcomer I was most hyped about ever since I saw his trailer. A character that is very different from my natural playstyle, but it's been a refreshing change. The more I play this game, the more I realize that I'm playing the characters I use for truly enjoying the characters, not how good or bad they are in the game.

Mhm. I've got the exact same sentiment.

 

[Lavani]

I have to confess...I started with Chespin, and don't even have a Greninja in X. I also wasn't initially that thrilled about him being announced as a character for 4. But after seeing aMSa play him at the E3 invitational, good lord did the character look fun to play.

Ironically I was the most excited for Rosalina but couldn't play her correctly when she was broken back in 1.0.0, and then figured her out after she got nerfed. :V Greninja's going to stay a secondary forever though I'm sure, he's too fun to drop even if he's an odd fit for a person that prefers slower, floaty characters.

@ Lavani Did any of his nerfs include reduction in damage by any chance? I noticed that a number of his moves do very little damage compared to other characters using the same moves, so I'm not sure if this was there before or not.

Uh...off the top of my head, usmash took a damage nerf to the sourspot while dsmash took a +2% buff and I think that was it. I don't feel like Greninja's damage is low at all though, for a character this fast to be able to get 25~30% off 2 hit combos is pretty great.

 

[Mocha]

Btw Elu, you have some of the coolest collection of Greninja arts. Don't mind if I snatch some. I love the Greninja emoticons especially~

And Lavani, I was looking forward to Rosalina as well (though not as much as Greninja), as well as Robin. Those two characters will take some time for me to adjust to. Funny thing about me using Rosalina is that I'm often paying more attention to Luma than Rosalina, so I'll be doing random things with Rosalina, even offstage, all the while making sure Luma is doing what I'm inputting. Rosie's fun, but a weird char to pick up and use right away.

 

[Lavani]

And Lavani, I was looking forward to Rosalina as well (though not as much as Greninja), as well as Robin. Those two characters will take some time for me to adjust to. Funny thing about me using Rosalina is that I'm often paying more attention to Luma than Rosalina, so I'll be doing random things with Rosalina, even offstage, all the while making sure Luma is doing what I'm inputting. Rosie's fun, but a weird char to pick up and use right away.

I think this is what a lot of my problem was with her back in 1.0.0

She made a lot more sense to me as a character when I realized it's almost always better to keep Luma by your side, and that jab/utilt/uair/usmash and her throws are amazing moves.

 

[meleebrawler]

Greninja was by far the most hurt character coming from 1.0.0. Rosalina's the only character that came close to his nerf amounts, and even then she had further to fall/wasn't nerfed as severely/ended up finding secret buffs from some of her nerfs (reduced nair kb allowed it to combo into dash attack, for example).

I find it confusing because, like @ elusiveTranscendent said, he wasn't even #1 prepatch anyway. And then characters like Diddy actually got buffed...

But eh, yeah, a decent chunk of what Greninja got in terms of nerfs was deserved, and there were some buffs sprinkled in too (dsmash, shadow sneak). 1.0.0 usmash was legit one of the dumbest things ever and nobody sane could deny it.

Didn't Diddy only get indirect buffs like no vectoring?

 

[Lavani]

Didn't Diddy only get indirect buffs like no vectoring?

He did actually get one tiny buff as his only direct change; a bigger hitbox on his rapid jab.

Otherwise, yes.

 

[meleebrawler]

He did actually get one tiny buff as his only direct change; a bigger hitbox on his rapid jab.

Otherwise, yes.

So Diddy didn't really get better, others around just got worse and he ended up looking better
by comparison.

And this is why bans are bad.