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Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

Spirst

 
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
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There's always a chance I'm wrong about Hydro Pump, imagining things are different when they really aren't, etc., I feel like Greninja will manage either way, especially if the other big four are nerfed as well.
True enough. Well, less than week to find out.
 

elusiveTranscendent

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Welp. I'm going to be over here with the 3DS version for a month while you guys are having fun with the Wii U. xD

Also, don't know if any of you guys know of this, but this site: http://www.smashladder.com/ is a really good place to find matches and stuff. A lot better than For Glory.
 

Jmacz

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My friend just texted me saying Greninja is getting nerfed in the the update, any truths to this?
 

Gunla

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Welp. I'm going to be over here with the 3DS version for a month while you guys are having fun with the Wii U. xD

Also, don't know if any of you guys know of this, but this site: http://www.smashladder.com/ is a really good place to find matches and stuff. A lot better than For Glory.
I know how you feel.


Anyways, when you guys are testing for things, be sure to try and remove any "placebo"-type anticipations of changes. We have many threads to offer as the baseline for previous versions and once 1.04 is out, I will document any changes that we can find.
 

Red5_snt

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Welp. I'm going to be over here with the 3DS version for a month while you guys are having fun with the Wii U. xD

Also, don't know if any of you guys know of this, but this site: http://www.smashladder.com/ is a really good place to find matches and stuff. A lot better than For Glory.
I'm actually on that site right now. Just got wrecked by a megaman on battlefield... Is there a stage discussion for this board yet? I feel like the game has been around long enough to warrant starting that and more MU threads. WiiU is out in less than a week so why not get a jump?
 

Sosuke

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my brother has a 3ds he doesn't use, so I'll try to directly compare anything that seems different in the new update/version to that
 

Jmacz

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@ Sosuke Sosuke My friend texted me saying SS was changed so it can't cancel landings and Hydro Pump was nerfed. I don't have my DS with me or I'd check.
 

fill

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my brother has a 3ds he doesn't use, so I'll try to directly compare anything that seems different in the new update/version to that
has a 3ds he doesnt use? well ill help you out and play it for him and help you compare stuff, all you have to do is let me borrow it till next friday lol :troll:
but seriously, awesome and let us know what you find out
 

Spirst

 
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@ Sosuke Sosuke My friend texted me saying SS was changed so it can't cancel landings and Hydro Pump was nerfed. I don't have my DS with me or I'd check.
Do you know how hydro pump was nerfed? Windbox effect, distance it travels, etc?
 

joaoTforce

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It's near the end of the video with two Usmashes in a row, done as fast as possible; compare it to the 3DS. Originally, I didn't catch this cause my computer was being laggy and I was mostly testing for percent/knockback.

As for the Hydro Pump, it certainly felt like my range was reduced, but that may have just been me trying to work against the Pro Controller.

EDIT: Before anyone starts freaking out, it would seem Sakurai has a good idea about what characters have what, more so than I originally thought. I would not be surprised to see Sheik, Rosalina, ZSS, and Diddy get similar nerfs if something like Usmash was considered too OP. Let's just wait and see what the Wii U brings.
I dunno, greninja has that same exact animation after the up-smash in the 3ds version, It's just that you can do another up-smash during the animation. Who knows if the player really tried to do 2 up-smashes as fast as possible in the video.
 

KERO

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I dunno, greninja has that same exact animation after the up-smash in the 3ds version, It's just that you can do another up-smash during the animation. Who knows if the player really tried to do 2 up-smashes as fast as possible in the video.
I played the actual demo (full game), and it was definitely nerfed. The guy playing Greninja in the video definitely did it as fast possible in the video as it matches up with my own experience with the move, and I was just using the video as a visual aid. Greninja now must put his water swords away before he can act.
 
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Sosuke

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it's still super good, i wouldn't worry

please no up-b bounce though :<
 

PokemonyeWest

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I hope the nerf to Greninja's Hydro Pump is unsubstantiated, but man am I glad that the Shadow Sneak nerfs happened. It makes fighting against a Greninja horribly frustrating and playing as Greninja feel a bit... broken.

If Hydro Pump did get nerfed, I only hope they left the customs moves alone. High Capacity Pump could be a fine replacement.
 
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joaoTforce

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I played the actual demo (full game), and it was definitely nerfed. The guy playing Greninja in the video definitely did it as fast possible in the video as it matches up with my own experience with the move, and I was just using the video as a visual aid. Greninja now must put his water swords away before he can act.
oh that's lame. but the thing I'm most worried about is the shadow sneak nerf. I use it so much to cancel lag from down-air. It's gonna be hard to adapt to that. Also it really sucks that hydro pump is getting nerfed.
 

Spirst

 
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oh that's lame. but the thing I'm most worried about is the shadow sneak nerf. I use it so much to cancel lag from down-air. It's gonna be hard to adapt to that. Also it really sucks that hydro pump is getting nerfed.
Not a good habit to get into in the first place. If you're using it that much, it's extremely easy to punish,
 

joaoTforce

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also one last thing I wanted to ask: Did greninja's counter change? is it better, worse, or the same?
 

Sosuke

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we'll find out everything in a week, yo
 

KERO

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I wouldn't be surprised if the patch is released earlier than the Wii U version to get people accustomed... please? Really hate this speculation, haha. I think I'll make a video of all of Greninja's attacks/range/percent/ending lag before it comes out.
 

Sosuke

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tbh i wish there was just a public changelog we could look at, but that's probably not happening
 

KERO

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Ehh, companies never release those. We gotta do the dirty work ourselves.
 

Spirst

 
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Just get rid of the stupid bounce on the ledge to compensate and I'm good.
 

Sosuke

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tbh i thought it was too strong of a gimmick against some characters

then again rosalina has that gimmick all the time constantly idk

still i agree with it being removed
 

JayTheUnseen

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Before I wondered how someone could stick to just playing a few characters all the time,without variety.
Now I know how. Greninja,Bowser Jr, and Shulk are so fun I hardly want to use anyone else.
 

KERO

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Alright, so I went ahead and made a video with all of Greninja's attacks most of Greninja's movements (I'm only missing his tripping get ups and heavy item throws) that shows their end lag being canceled as fast as possible so that we have a baseline for when the patch hits:


Additionally, I plan to make a few videos regarding Hydro Pump's range and effect. They should be out tomorrow or Tuesday (I already have the footage recorded; just need to edit them).
 
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Marilink

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Ok, so since I am bad at Smashboards, I made a separate thread for this, but I should have posted it here:

Is this guy just being a sore loser, or do his Johns actually mean anything? (Spirst said he was just a sore loser, and I'm inclined to agree.)

I 2-0'd this guy, and this is his response. I say "gotcha," but I actually have no idea what he's talking about. "You input jab or shield when using Usmash"? What is he trying to say?



This guy makes it sound like all I did was Usmash the entire match, but half of my kills were Fairs or Up-B gimps, and I definitely did more than just roll and Usmash. I just really don't understand why he thinks that he could "grab me every time I Usmash" if we were playing Locally.

Side note: I felt 0 lag during the whole match.
 
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MartinAW4

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Oct 25, 2014
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I`m OK with the removal of SS aerial landing lag cancelling since if they shielded you were left with even more lag than before but the Usmash nerf seems really bad. From the video it seems like it definitely won`t combo into itself anymore at low % and our Nair -> Usmash -> Jab approach (or just Usmash -> Jab) probably won`t be safe on shield anymore either.
I guess it`s only fair because honestly, I think it was the best Usmash in the game but it still sucks to have your best move nerfed so much.

I just hope that the rumors about the Hydro Pump nerf and Uair spike removal aren`t true because that would mean that Greninja`s best smash, special and aerial move all got nerfed, which would be a much bigger nerf overall than anything I`ve seen other characters receive so far.

Edit:
Also have you guys noticed at 0:58 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh9vY5ip6Es they use a very slow Shadow Sneak which most likely means that they have customs enabled and used custom 2 Shadow Strike. But just to make sure, can anyone confirm that Shadow Sneak still has the same speed?

Also at 0:37 while the Hydro Pump range seems unchanged, the pushback seems very weak. Though Pikachu was hit at a vertical angle which has the lowest pushback and he could have minimized the pushback with good DI, so all hope is not lost yet, but normally the pushback would have been about twice as strong from a vertical hit and several times stronger from a diagonal hit.

However there are some positive changes as well. At 0:37 you can see that a single hit from Hydro Pump now deals 5% damage instead of 2%. But this also confirms that Hydro Pump was changed which unfortunately makes a pushback nerf seem more likely.

And I forgot that KERO confirmed that the Uair spike really is gone which can be seen at 1:45. Pikachu got hit by 4 Uair hits for 4% damage which means that the final hit was definitely missing since it deals 3% and despite this, Pikachu was not only not pulled down, he was actually sent upwards a bit which never happened in the 3DS version.
 
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KERO

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The Hydro Pump on Pikachu in that video can actually be replicated exactly on the 3DS version from a footstool. Also, pretty sure that Hydro Pump does 4.x percent usually, their meaning that 5% could have been the result of their current percent being at the right decimal to make Hydro Pump appear to have done 5%.

As for the Shadow Sneak, it's because he did it into Swirlix, whose effect is to slow down a character's movement.
 

MartinAW4

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The Hydro Pump on Pikachu in that video can actually be replicated exactly on the 3DS version from a footstool. Also, pretty sure that Hydro Pump does 4.x percent usually, their meaning that 5% could have been the result of their current percent being at the right decimal to make Hydro Pump appear to have done 5%.

As for the Shadow Sneak, it's because he did it into Swirlix, whose effect is to slow down a character's movement.
After rewatching that part at 0.25 speed I noticed that Pikachu did really get hit twice by Hydro Pump because you can see its % go from 40% to 43% for a very short time before going to 45%. And even though a Hydro Pump at 100% strength deals exactly 2 damage, because this was the first time it hit it got the 105% freshness bonus. So it actually dealt two hits per 2.1 damage which could have seemed like 5 damage if Pikachu had at least 40.9 damage when it got hit.

And yeah, that explains why Shadow Sneak seemed so slow. I usually don`t play with items so I had no idea what Swirlix does.
 

momochuu

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i hope that greninja nerf to hydro pump isn't really how it is and they just had a custom or something.
 

KERO

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i hope that greninja nerf to hydro pump isn't really how it is and they just had a custom or something.
We still don't know if there is a Hydro Pump nerf or not. The Hydro Pump knockback can be exactly replicated on the 3DS version from a foostool. I'm much more willing to bet there was a range decrease than a power decrease. That said, I'm nearly halfway done with another overall demonstration video (this time being more about damage each move does as well as Hydro Pump range).
 

KERO

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Uair spike is definitely removed. The Usmash nerf really isn't bad. It's still got all the kill power and range that it needs, and it's still relatively hard to punish unless the opponent's shield is hit by it.

Anyway, here's the Hydro Pump demonstration:


I also have another general Greninja movements video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T7q80b3qOU

This one focuses more on damage, though, which is fairly redundant considering we already have that cataloged.

I intend to release one last baseline video featuring Hydro Pump vs various character classes (lightweight fast faller, medium weight floaty, etc.,).

I should get that one out tomorrow or Wednesday.
 
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Spirst

 
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Uair spiking is still there. I've been able to do it in training mode without much issue. Feels kind of different though. It's easier for the result to be the other character just stays in place rather than gets sent down. I think you have to do even less of the uair for it to be effective.
 
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