The Plumber's Crack - Mario General

[Keman]

Do people here ever really wavebounce Fireballs? if so in what situations? Only time I have every really used it is as "hey look what I can do while your getting star KO'd spam non existent tech skill time"

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Do people here ever really wavebounce Fireballs? if so in what situations? Only time I have every really used it is as "hey look what I can do while your getting star KO'd spam non existent tech skill time"

i guess it could be used to be super defense and lame with pills. Mario can make people do some stupid stuff if you propperly space yourself during FH pill.

also hi everyone.

 

[GeZ]

Do people here ever really wavebounce Fireballs? if so in what situations? Only time I have every really used it is as "hey look what I can do while your getting star KO'd spam non existent tech skill time"

I mix up fireballs with different tech a lot.

I like to Dair through a shielding opponent > dash away from them > SH B reverse fireball > jab/ grab.

In regards to Wavebounce, I'll full hop > WB fireball > WL forward. It's a neat set up because it puts you on the ground near your opponent while a fireball is heading at them from above ish. Really option limiting. More favorable than FH > Fireball > whatever aerial before ground, is in my opinion.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Dair cross up on sheild isdeadly . Dair cp grab
-shivers-

 

[GeZ]

Just flattened everyone at my local today. Probably dropped four games the whole night. Only lost one game to our Marth/ Roy player. Definitely still rough MU's but more doable than people think.

I was having trouble figuring out how to use fireballs besides to try to string combos together, when I just started throwing them out to make people approach today, and it worked surprisingly well on everyone except Dantarion, who did the power shield programing for P:M, and is incidentally really dumb good at it, but still, handy dandy for racking up damage and making people come to you, if you want that.

Also, on a side note, is powershielding just this relatively easy thing that no one tries? Or what the hell. I had never attempted it before, because I thought it was ******** difficult, but I wanted to see if I could do it in Melee and P:M so I tried, and it's freaking ez no problem. I was across Battlefield from a Link player, climbing ledge. He charges and shoots an arrow, that I powershield, then throws a boomerang, that I powershield, and then I grabbed and converted that **** into the stock. Is this **** really easy, or am I just stealth gahliek?

But yeah, this character's still really good. There are tough MU's but I wouldn't say anything unwinnable, and I feel like, design wise, we're in a good place right now.

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

yea alot of what makes bad MUs doable, is the player skill level tbh.

 

[9bit]

Regular power shield is a 4-frame window. The one that reflects projectiles back is 2-frames. I've always found it to be not that difficult.

Also, did I already mention in here how amazeballs Mario's ledge-dash is? OMG. It's a thing of beauty.

 

[No~m]

Hey all, not sure if this is the right location but was hoping I could get some tips/critique on my Mario play. My tag is No~M, been playing smash for years but only really got into the P:M tourney scene 12 months ago or so. Here's the link to a 2-0 set I won at my local monthly a couple weeks ago (Mario vs. Link), only recording I have right now:

http://www.twitch.tv/projecttoronto/b/653788631

Game 1 is from 1:26:30 - 1:31:00 , Game 2 is from 1:31:35 - 1:35:10 .

Thanks so much! Sorry again if this is the wrong place to post this.

 

[GeZ]

Regular power shield is a 4-frame window. The one that reflects projectiles back is 2-frames. I've always found it to be not that difficult.

Also, did I already mention in here how amazeballs Mario's ledge-dash is? OMG. It's a thing of beauty.

Dude, Mario Ledgedash basically covers the whole stage. It basically wins the game, basically.

Hey all, not sure if this is the right location but was hoping I could get some tips/critique on my Mario play. My tag is No~M, been playing smash for years but only really got into the P:M tourney scene 12 months ago or so. Here's the link to a 2-0 set I won at my local monthly a couple weeks ago (Mario vs. Link), only recording I have right now:

http://www.twitch.tv/projecttoronto/b/653788631

Game 1 is from 1:26:30 - 1:31:00 , Game 2 is from 1:31:35 - 1:35:10 .

Thanks so much! Sorry again if this is the wrong place to post this.

When the match first started it looked like you were just doing things, but then I saw the CG follow onto platform, and the WL after an aerial, and generally good follows on techs, so you're no random, which is a good start.

At one point you down B above ledge, right in front of Link, then cape. There's no reason to do either of those in front of a waiting opponent, ever. If the guy opposite you was more competent you would've lost that stock right there, so be mindful of using your recovery tools below the ledge, and mixing them up, as being predictable with Mario's recovery gets you edgeguarded for free.

Your fireballs in neutral are pretty well chosen, and generally used well. I think that an opponent with better counterplay, or a MU where fireballs get countered easier will make you think about it more, but for now it was fine usage. My one gripe is that you approached with them more than I'd like. If your opponent isn't afraid of them you'll get ****ed on for walking behind full hop fireballs because they'll go over their head if spaced right.

I really, really like your recovery outside of that first moment. Saving double jump well, using early Up B sparingly but remembering it's an option, getting good distance out of Down B. Big thumbs up. Sorry if I'm writing a lot. I could be less specific and do mentality exclusively, but I haven't done this in a while, and I'm enjoying watching your set, so yeah.

But yeah, I saw you get hit pretty often because you walked after fireball without thinking about it. That worked in 3.02, but doesn't nearly as well in 3.5. You should be looking to bait reactions from your opponent with excessive movement and fireballs, and poke at them with Ftilt, jab, and Fsmash when you sneak it in. Mario plays much closer to his Melee incarnation now, in my opinion. He's closer to a fundamentalist, and better players will make you play that way, as your fireball and fly in approach is pretty easily shut down if it's not feared. Recommendation on that is just to spend more time DD'ing, and watching your opponents reactions to your movement, pokes, and fireballs.

I see you cape in the neutral a lot, which is a niche option at best. Much less of that. Only do it when you have some clear idea of it accomplishing something, like reflecting a projectile, or turning around an Fsmash, or something of the like. Otherwise it's not worth it. Besides that, your use of Dtilt in combos is tasty, and you don't end combos early with smash attacks, which is good. You could probably benefit from grabbing more when your opponent gets out of your combo. People are scared when they get out of being hit. Even if your Uair > Uair > string doesn't convert into a kill, and the opponent gets their feet back on solid ground, push your advantage. A lot of the time they'll just touch ground and shield. Grab until they don't do that. If they're prone to panicking, or don't have good grab counterplay, you can run up to them and wait, or position yourself to DD in front of them as they touch the ground, and they might freak out and do something random and punishable.

I saw you do a sequence where you moved in like you were going to approach, WD'd back, then flew in with neutral air, and it punished a grab, but the Nair was flying at the guy before he even threw out grab. Point is, you do what I used to do a lot, which is do something that constitutes as a bait, then threw out something that would punish what you were baiting, without waiting to see what their reaction was. A more grounded player will just wait, and you'll fly in like a dummy and get blown up.

I've got a lot more I could say, but this is a lot to read, so tell me if you'd like more, or you want the info in a more general sense of improve this, these are fine, be more mindful of this, etc. All in all though, really like your Mario. Potential city.

 

[No~m]

Dude, Mario Ledgedash basically covers the whole stage. It basically wins the game, basically.


When the match first started it looked like you were just doing things, but then I saw the CG follow onto platform, and the WL after an aerial, and generally good follows on techs, so you're no random, which is a good start.

At one point you down B above ledge, right in front of Link, then cape. There's no reason to do either of those in front of a waiting opponent, ever. If the guy opposite you was more competent you would've lost that stock right there, so be mindful of using your recovery tools below the ledge, and mixing them up, as being predictable with Mario's recovery gets you edgeguarded for free.

Your fireballs in neutral are pretty well chosen, and generally used well. I think that an opponent with better counterplay, or a MU where fireballs get countered easier will make you think about it more, but for now it was fine usage. My one gripe is that you approached with them more than I'd like. If your opponent isn't afraid of them you'll get ****ed on for walking behind full hop fireballs because they'll go over their head if spaced right.

I really, really like your recovery outside of that first moment. Saving double jump well, using early Up B sparingly but remembering it's an option, getting good distance out of Down B. Big thumbs up. Sorry if I'm writing a lot. I could be less specific and do mentality exclusively, but I haven't done this in a while, and I'm enjoying watching your set, so yeah.

But yeah, I saw you get hit pretty often because you walked after fireball without thinking about it. That worked in 3.02, but doesn't nearly as well in 3.5. You should be looking to bait reactions from your opponent with excessive movement and fireballs, and poke at them with Ftilt, jab, and Fsmash when you sneak it in. Mario plays much closer to his Melee incarnation now, in my opinion. He's closer to a fundamentalist, and better players will make you play that way, as your fireball and fly in approach is pretty easily shut down if it's not feared. Recommendation on that is just to spend more time DD'ing, and watching your opponents reactions to your movement, pokes, and fireballs.

I see you cape in the neutral a lot, which is a niche option at best. Much less of that. Only do it when you have some clear idea of it accomplishing something, like reflecting a projectile, or turning around an Fsmash, or something of the like. Otherwise it's not worth it. Besides that, your use of Dtilt in combos is tasty, and you don't end combos early with smash attacks, which is good. You could probably benefit from grabbing more when your opponent gets out of your combo. People are scared when they get out of being hit. Even if your Uair > Uair > string doesn't convert into a kill, and the opponent gets their feet back on solid ground, push your advantage. A lot of the time they'll just touch ground and shield. Grab until they don't do that. If they're prone to panicking, or don't have good grab counterplay, you can run up to them and wait, or position yourself to DD in front of them as they touch the ground, and they might freak out and do something random and punishable.

I saw you do a sequence where you moved in like you were going to approach, WD'd back, then flew in with neutral air, and it punished a grab, but the Nair was flying at the guy before he even threw out grab. Point is, you do what I used to do a lot, which is do something that constitutes as a bait, then threw out something that would punish what you were baiting, without waiting to see what their reaction was. A more grounded player will just wait, and you'll fly in like a dummy and get blown up.

I've got a lot more I could say, but this is a lot to read, so tell me if you'd like more, or you want the info in a more general sense of improve this, these are fine, be more mindful of this, etc. All in all though, really like your Mario. Potential city.

Thank GeZ, really appreciate the analysis! I had some comments/questions, might be a bit disorganized but bear with me:

- Very start of Game 1 did look pretty derp before the CG, I'm still finding fireballs a bit awkward cause of the 3.5 IASA nerfs. Would you say that SH fireball is still useful despite the end-lag or is sticking to FH better (to avoid landing lag)?
- Good point about the down B in front of people, it's definitely punishable. I think my recovery distance is pretty huge (because I map every D-pad direction to special and mash for Down B) but I agree I need to work on mixing it up more.
- I wish fireball spam worked as well as 3.02 But I guess it's more interesting this way. When you talk about baiting reactions (and this is kind of a question about reading/baiting in general), do you find yourself consciously logging what the opponent will do or is it a subconscious process? With fireballs for instance, would you throw them out and then watch and remember exactly what your opponent did so you can choose a counter-option next time? I find that usually my reads come subconsciously, where I sort of just 'know' what option they will choose (not that they work that often) in certain situations (ie a tech chase scenario).
- I didn't know the Link matchup so I was trying to cape his projectile spam, don't usually use it that much. Definitely don't wanna get into that habit. Someone else suggested to me afterwards that SH nair is often a better option than cape against laggy projectile animations like Link boomerang, where you cancel it out and approach at the same time.
- I like your regrab tip to follow up after a string, and thanks, really really dig Mario's dtilt in this game. One of my favorite kill combos (I fished for it and didn't quite land it in Game 2) is dtilt > SH uair > DJ fair
- Good point about the WD back > nair punish thing, I guess it's counterintuitive to try and bait something without waiting to make sure the bait worked. If he were an f-smash happy Ike I'd be pooped on for doing that
- Were there any options you think I didn't use enough? I want to implement more jab, ftilt, and fsmash, but I'm usually wary of committing with fsmash and I can't think of many setups that lead into an fsmash. Also I've reduced my dair use a lot since the hitbox was reduced after 3.02, maybe I could use it more?

Thanks again dude, and absolutely I'd love to hear what else you have to say, whether it be general stuff or specific practical stuff like improve x and practice y etc.

 

[GeZ]

Thank GeZ, really appreciate the analysis! I had some comments/questions, might be a bit disorganized but bear with me:

- Very start of Game 1 did look pretty derp before the CG, I'm still finding fireballs a bit awkward cause of the 3.5 IASA nerfs. Would you say that SH fireball is still useful despite the end-lag or is sticking to FH better (to avoid landing lag)?
- Good point about the down B in front of people, it's definitely punishable. I think my recovery distance is pretty huge (because I map every D-pad direction to special and mash for Down B) but I agree I need to work on mixing it up more.
- I wish fireball spam worked as well as 3.02 But I guess it's more interesting this way. When you talk about baiting reactions (and this is kind of a question about reading/baiting in general), do you find yourself consciously logging what the opponent will do or is it a subconscious process? With fireballs for instance, would you throw them out and then watch and remember exactly what your opponent did so you can choose a counter-option next time? I find that usually my reads come subconsciously, where I sort of just 'know' what option they will choose (not that they work that often) in certain situations (ie a tech chase scenario).
- I didn't know the Link matchup so I was trying to cape his projectile spam, don't usually use it that much. Definitely don't wanna get into that habit. Someone else suggested to me afterwards that SH nair is often a better option than cape against laggy projectile animations like Link boomerang, where you cancel it out and approach at the same time.
- I like your regrab tip to follow up after a string, and thanks, really really dig Mario's dtilt in this game. One of my favorite kill combos (I fished for it and didn't quite land it in Game 2) is dtilt > SH uair > DJ fair
- Good point about the WD back > nair punish thing, I guess it's counterintuitive to try and bait something without waiting to make sure the bait worked. If he were an f-smash happy Ike I'd be pooped on for doing that
- Were there any options you think I didn't use enough? I want to implement more jab, ftilt, and fsmash, but I'm usually wary of committing with fsmash and I can't think of many setups that lead into an fsmash. Also I've reduced my dair use a lot since the hitbox was reduced after 3.02, maybe I could use it more?

Thanks again dude, and absolutely I'd love to hear what else you have to say, whether it be general stuff or specific practical stuff like improve x and practice y etc.

I'd say that SH fireball and FH fireball both have their place. FH fireball can put you in a really bad position against characters with good disjoint, while SH fireball can be blown through by a lot of characters Nairplanes. Pick your moments maybe? One thing I'll say personally, is that when I choose to approach with fireball, I'll either dash away, then B reverse fireball towards them, using the movement from it to cover for the poorer IASA frames, or I'll full hop WL fireballs. I rarely approach with them though.

Fireballs were kinda dumb in 3.02. Like, they were really good, but I much prefer a movement based Mario, to a fireball based one. I'd say when you feel like you've got an unconscious read on opponents habits, it'll work at a higher level, only for the first part of a set. Once your opponent adapts, or otherwise starts using their options more thoughtfully, you'll have to spend more time yourself thinking about options. I personally think it's always a better idea to go with what you feel, like subconscious read, for the first time you put someone in a situation, be it tech chase, or watching reaction to a fireball, but as you go through with your option based on what you assume they do, watch what they actually do, and log that. Second time you put them in that situation, try to remember if it seems like your opponent has been reacting to your play, or just playing. If they've been just playing, covering whatever option they did the first time will usually do the trick. If they've been adapting, maybe cover a different option the second time, and see where that gets you. It's hard to explain, so I'll give a situation.

I'm fighting Falco, and I start a combo around the middle of FD. I tag him with Dtilt > Uair, but I know he's not at high enough percent for Fair to kill, so I land the meteor hitbox of Fair instead. The first time I put them in this situation, I expect them to tech away, because that's most players inclination, so I WL forward, and grab.
The next time I put them in a telegraphed tech situation, I would cover tech in, under the assumption that they're mindful of what got them caught out last time.
Basically, if your opponent seems smart, you should play under the assumption that they're analyzing all their, and your, decisions as the match progresses.

I'd say, Dair should still be used sparingly, as it's just alright as an option now. Maybe use it as a shield cross up, every once in a while. Fsmash should be used as more of a whiff punish in the neutral, since it's really punisheable on shield. DD > Jab/ Ftilt is very good hit and run harassment though, and can begin conditioning your opponents early on, as well as stack percent on heavier characters near the beginning of stocks, since you can't really get combos started competently outside of CG.

Other than that, something that's not really a suggestion but an option I really like for recovery, is Up B > wall jump > B reverse Fireball. Only works on specific stages, but is a really cool way to transition from recovering to having onstage presence.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm never getting tagged again LOOOOL
Name change because:

1. Hinichii is the name on the internet, I am most known as.
2. Letter tag because its the acronym for my squad on splatoons.

• Squad Name is Hard Body Swag Force

1. The Diamond cause IM DA LOBBY LEADER BISH

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Took me a while to realize who tf this was.

side note is it me or does mario seem to be even or slightly disadvantaged in terms of overall MU spread.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Took me a while to realize who tf this was.

side note is it me or does mario seem to be even or slightly disadvantaged in terms of overall MU spread.

uhh I guess hes more so even?

 

[AssTAStic_ACA]

Not sure if any of you watched that new stream IPK runs, but their was this one mario main named Nashun.

Needless to say i was very impresseed. Anyone else heard of him? Im trying to find the VOD from the stream, but it seems thats not possible.

 

[Nashun]

Never heard of him.

 

[Cynapse]

Maybe I'm just bad, but aerial Up-B > WJ seems damn-near impossible in 3.6, even if I'm right up next to the wall. Frustration.

 

[9bit]

Maybe I'm just bad, but aerial Up-B > WJ seems damn-near impossible in 3.6, even if I'm right up next to the wall. Frustration.

If you don't know, in 3.6 the only way you can wall-jump after Up-B is if you initiate the Up-B while already touching the wall.

If you have been doing that, then it's just a timing issue of when exactly to push the control stick away from the wall, and that'll come with practice.

 

[Cynapse]

If you don't know, in 3.6 the only way you can wall-jump after Up-B is if you initiate the Up-B while already touching the wall.

If you have been doing that, then it's just a timing issue of when exactly to push the control stick away from the wall, and that'll come with practice.

I'm always against the wall, but for whatever reason it's far easier when starting from the ground. Frustration.